by frog
Anzac Day is the one day of the year set aside to remember those who have served in the armed forces around the world. I’d like to add kudos for those in the emergency services, the VSA and those who volunteer at home in places like the City Missions, feeding hungry kiwis. However, today is the day for our men and women in uniform, their friends and family.
They shall grow not old,
As we that are left grow old,
Age shall not weary them,
Nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun,
And in the morning
We will remember them. Lest we Forget
Russel represented the Greens for the ceremony at the National War Memorial and placed a flower on the Tomb of the Unknown Warrior along with other dignitaries and guests.
The karanga around the base of the Tomb reads:
Te mamae nei a te pouri nui
The great pain we feel
Tenei ra e te tau
Is for you who were our future
Aue hoki mai ra ki te kainga tuturu
Come back return home,
E tatari atu nei ki a koutou
We have waited for you
Nga tau roa
Through the long years
I ngaro atu ai te aroha
You were away. Sorrow
E ngau kino nei i ahau aue taukuri e
Aches within me.
Published in Society & Culture by frog on Fri, April 25th, 2008
Tags: 2008, anzac, national war memorial, poppy, rememberance, Russel Norman, tomb of the unknown warrior, veterans
on the trolls and those who are unable to keep on topic
“I’d like to add kudos for those in the emergency services, the VSA and those who volunteer at home in places like the City Missions, feeding hungry kiwis.”
and the Maori Wardens who help with the battle on our streets, the Salvation Army, Presbyterian Support Services, Womans Refuge, people of the Historic Places Trust and the Fairlie Volunteer Fire Brigade.
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Of course now it’s open slather on our shores:
http://www.listener.co.nz/issue/3412/features/4781/coast_watch.html
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good post fwog
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WTF have the “hungry in the City missions” have to do with ANZAC Day? I see it as a reminder that the Greens are from “way out there” (somewhere) land. I don’t think many people understand who the “greens” are or what they think…
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Idjit, it’s the spirit of service to others he is alluding to. Or do you think the only people who are affected by war are the paid soldiers on the battlefront? Or the life-long psychological consequences of living or fighting in a war zone.
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Sue Bradford’s a Green MP isn’t she? I may have read too much into it, but as a ball park, I (rightly or wrongly) would place groups such as John Minto’s happily in the Green Party and I would expect an ambiguous response to ANZAC day…. of course you can’t please everyone….
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Thank you Kevyn. Indeed, that was what I was alluding to. There are so many people who serve this country selflessly every day in so many ways. I was hinting that I would like to thank them too, but it was not their day to be thanked. That’s why my list was short. I didn’t want it to overshadow the real reason for the season.
jh – I’m sure that the percentage of Greens who are ambiguous about ANZAC day is about the same as the general population. Equally, I expect that those Greens who feel like honouring the spirit of the day are also about average in number. How many proud children of veterans are their in this country, from all political stripes? I don’t know, but I count myself one of them.
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a great uncle of mine was killed in the last days of the second world war..
(i would have liked to know him..)
my sons’ great-grandfather (german) died in a russian prisoner of war camp..
so we try to remember them and others..
that any greens should be (still!) locked into some vietnam-era time-warp..
..and cannot see that in no way are these ceremonies any ‘celebration’ of war..
almost begs disbelief..(and i welcome/invite them to ‘make their case’..)
the anzac ceremonies are an annual reminder of the horrors/irrationality of war..
and we are all better for having that reminder..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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phil u Says:
April 26th, 2008 at 1:36 pm
> that any greens should be (still!) locked into some vietnam-era time-warp..
> ..and cannot see that in no way are these ceremonies any ‘celebration’ of war..
> almost begs disbelief..(and i welcome/invite them to ‘make their case’..)
It’s worth noting that the woman who led the flag-burning protest at last year’s ANZAC day commemoration was an immigrant from the United States. I do not think someone who grew up in New Zealand would make the mistake she did of thinking ANZAC Day was a celebration of war.
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to move this sideways a little…i really dislike the name of this monument ” tonb of unknown WARRIOR “… these men and women were NOT warriors , like my forebears who served and died there they were ORDINARY men and women, factory workers, farm workers,bank workers etc etc … unemployed, young men looking for adventure… they weren’t “warriors” at all…thats what makes the whole thing so bloody sad…why not the tomb of the unknown soldier ?… was “warrior” a bit of a cultural sop ?.. because some of my forebears that went were Maori but NOT warriors – they were farm workers… one was only 15 years old.
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haz – The name kind of catches me by surprise to – until I think that no one knows whether this is an airman, seaman, soldier or whatever. Folks in the armed services are proud of their moniker and so the only just compromise for an unknown would be ‘warrior’. I don’t think it is a cultural sop – just a convenient way to honour a true unknown. Follow the Tomb link in the post for the history of he who is buried there. It’s fascinating.
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Unknown Combatant would be a more honest and less emotive term, and is less gender associative. WWII made slaughter of the innocents acceptable political morality so war has been an almost gender neutral pastime for much longer than most of the things that politicians are responsible for.
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What on earth was is/was wrong with calling it the tomb of the unknown soldier?
There was a veteran interviewed on Friday morning about this, he refuses to call it the tomb of the unknown warrior, he did not deny that there were warriors in the NZ army but in his mind the warriors were the regular army types (in no way was he denigrating the regular army chaps, he holds them in the utmost respect) his point was that he as a veteran as not a warrior he was an accountant, an accountant that went to war to defend a lifestyle he loved and to defend freedom.
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I don’t want to take away from the work that vounteers have done, but volunteer day is on the 5th of December, not the 25th of April.
I can’t speak for everyone who has served in the New Zealand Defence Force, but as an ex serviceman myself, and one of the servicemen who marched in the precession for the funeral of the unknown soldier, I feel insulted that some might take ANZAC day as a day to remember anyone other than the service personel who have fought and died in the service of this country.
ANZAC day is a day for the current and ex service personel who have fought in wars to remember their comrades who died in service. It is also a day for all New Zealanders to pay respect for the sacrifices that many service personel have made in an effort to uphold the values that so many of us take for granted.
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Doug T
Very well said.
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Actually, the name “Tomb of the Unknown Warrior,” would not have come from Maoridom, but from the British! They have a Tomb of the Unknown Warrior, and if you don’t believe me, look on Wikipedia
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DougT -
> ANZAC day is a day for the current and ex service personel who have fought in wars to remember their comrades who died in service.
Fine, and I respect this
> It is also a day for all New Zealanders to pay respect for the sacrifices that many service personel have made in an effort to uphold the values that so many of us take for granted.
I find this formulation archaic, loaded & offensive. The notion that we ‘uphold values’ by waging war is pernicious & the source of much evil. Even worse that we should attempt to craft our national identity from such dismal ideas. Maybe I would feel differently if returned service personnel had been in the forefront of defending human rights at home.
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“the woman who led the flag-burning protest at last year’s ANZAC day commemoration was an immigrant from the United States.”
Actually she was born in Auckland.
I don’t buy this argument that ANZAC day is anti-war. Some people may see it as so, but why do the current armed forces, who actively recruit people to go and fight overseas, get to participate in the ceremonies? Why does the RSA, which lobbies for more military spending get to run the show?
It feels to me that the pro-military groups understand that they will be unpopular if they openly come out as such, so hide behind anti-war rhetoric while promoting military parades, patriotism and nationalism which leads diirectly to the wars they claim to oppose.
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Murraye,
When Germany & Austro-Hungary instigated the start of WW1 New Zealand had no hand whatsoever in this. We were tied to England, and as a consequence, we came to their aid along with the other commonwealth states. New Zealand was fighting in the war because England needed our help, just as it did in WW2.
You have to understand that the world is not a fair and just place. There are always people willing to do bad things to others for their own gain. If it happens to you, you have 2 choices. You can lay down and die, or you can stand up and fight. At least with the latter, you have a chance.
When it happens to a freind, you also have 2 choices. You can stand back and hope your friend doesn’t die, or you can help your friend fight. It’s a harder decision to help someone else, because you have the choice to just stay safe at the expense of your friend who’s only options were to fight or die.
I don’t see war as a glorious thing, but I do understand that sometimes it is necessary to restore peace, when diplomacy has failed. This is a sad fact about humanity, but it is a fact.
I would like to ask you, if you are glad that we, along with the rest of the international community, have abstained from using military force to stop what is happening in Zimbabwe?
Sam Buchanan,
I really don’t understand what you are getting at.
The current Armed forces are doing Peace Keeping duties, not fighting in wars.
The goverments are the ones who decide where the military go, not the military, and certainly not the Soldiers Sailors and Airmen (& WAAF’s).
And Sam, your statement (unless I have totally missinterpereted) is as backward as saying that having a Police force promotes crime.
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What are you talking about DougT ???
Blaming WWI on Germany and Austro-Hungary is simple not true It always takes two sides to tango and the stupid Alliance system that had been created by Bismark and the rest of the European leaders was always going to lead to war.
How can we have come to the Aid of Britain in WWI, Britain was never attacked by Germany and Germany didn’t declare war on Britain either.
Next you will be trying to tell me Hitler is the single main reason that WWII was fought. Hint WWII was caused by WWI.
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“I really don’t understand what you are getting at.”
What I’m saying is that the current form of remembrance for ANZAC day isn’t anti-war. There’s some anti-war rhetoric, but the day largely serves to promote the military as an honoured, respectable and necessary arm of the state, and to promote nattionalism and patriotism.
Take this from Helen Clark’s speech: ” it was from that doomed landing on the shores of Gallipoli that the ANZAC legend grew ― of strong and brave young soldiers from the uttermost ends of the earth who fought against incredible odds with great courage.
…their deeds and sacrifice inspire our peoples to this day.”
This is very carefully worded – there’s nothing technically wrong with it – Clark doesn’t say there was anything positive about what was done at Gallipoli – just that there is a ‘legend’ derived from the events and that some people are inspired by what happened.
But there’s an awful lot not being said, which one would expect if our politicians really had anti-war sentiments. There’s nothing such as “We invaded Turkey because we put our troops under British orders and did as we were told. Our soldiers killed and were killed by people we had no quarrel with. The campaign was a shambles – we were beaten by the Turks and nothing was achieved. We must remember this and never send our people to other country’s wars”.
And calling wars ‘peace-keeping’ doesn’t make them not wars.
Nor is what I said like saying having a police force promotes crime – ANZAC day is more like letting gangs stand up and tell people crime is bad and have everyone else say how great the gangs are as an anti-crime force.
There are heroes in WWI – 50 French divisions refused to go to the front and other French sldiers mutineed and left the trenches (Petain had to agree to end attacks). The German navy rebelled and refused to go to sea. British regiments went on strike both during and after the war (when ordered to Russia to fight the revolutionaries). These are probably the most important events of WWI, but they don’t turn up in history books much.
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I don’t think that’s a glorification or war, it’s simply putting a gloss on an unpleasant truth. That is not a bad thing. At a funeral, we do not bring up a persons bad points, we put a positive spin on their lives.
That is the humane thing to do, yes?
I think it is a stretch to see this as a call to arms. There is little support for increased military spending in New Zealand, which indicates New Zealanders don’t see ANZAC day as anything but a sad time of remembrance.
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Sam
Are you seriously saying that deserters were the real heroes?, men who were happy to let their fighting comrades be killed just so they could save their own pathetic skin?
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I see Anzac day as a time to remember the men and women who served this country and died.
I also realize that in the case of the WWI soldiers they died for nothing but in their death they gave us something. Anzac day is a reminder to us all that we should never be eager for war and we should certainly not be quick to rush off and fight in one.
I am sure few of the boys who landed in Anzac cove had any idea why they were there or even where there was.
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“Are you seriously saying that deserters were the real heroes?,”
In the case of WWI at least, yes. I only wish they’d been more of them.
What evidence do you have that they were happy to let their comrades be killed? This is just a pathetic slur.
“I don’t think that’s a glorification or war, it’s simply putting a gloss on an unpleasant truth. That is not a bad thing. At a funeral, we do not bring up a persons bad points, we put a positive spin on their lives.”
This is talking as if war was a person, or simply a matter of individuals doing something. We can oppose war without demonising the individual soldiers who fought in it.
NZ is a pretty high defence spender, despite claims to the contrary – there is a constant campaign by the military to keep spending high and little objection.
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Japanese POW camp was a little slice of home
An enlightened policy of treating World War I prisoners leniently helped seal the relationship between Japan and Germany
AFP, NARUTO, JAPAN
Tuesday, Mar 23, 2004, Page 16
A remote Japanese community that welcomed German World War I prisoners with beer, sausages and sauerkraut instead of typically harsh treatment elsewhere has inspired one researcher to help uncover a forgotten past that forged an enduring link between the two countries.
Roland Schulz, a 32-year-old German, is hoping to shed light on the legacy of a “fence-free” camp for German war prisoners in Naruto, southwest of Tokyo, that helped found a lasting friendship between two former enemies.
While many fellow captives of the 1914-18 conflict were crowded into tiny huts and subjected to violence, some 1,000 German prisoners enjoyed an almost idyllic lifestyle in Naruto’s Bando camp, complete with football matches, concerts and picnics.
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/feat/archives/2004/03/23/2003107480
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BB.
Obviously you haven’t seen the classic anti-war movie, Paths of Glory, directed by Stanley Kubrick.
If you had you’d realise that those men risked their lives to take a principled stand against their incompetent and self-indulgent officers who showed their complete and utter contempt for the lives of their supposed “lessers” by recklessly throwing their lives away for the sake of prestige and promotion.
Even during World War II, if a British (and Kiwi) soldier disobeyed orders no matter how stupid he could face a summary execution. The Australian Prime Minister
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The unpleasant truth is that these men died needlessly. However, I think people find it preferable to cast remembrance in terms of more positive aspects, such as bravery.
I do see the ANZAC celebrations as anti-war. I think most New Zealanders do. Perhaps both the military fetishists and the peace protesters have something in common….they’re both out of touch.
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I see there’s been an attack on the Waipohia “Spy base” (“they might be spying on us”). Are the 60 or so of you off for the annual photo this election year?
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“a fine example of courage and effective anti-war action”
Yes, I can just see the US pulling out of Iraq in response to this.
“Oh look – there’s a cover over a satellite dish in…..erm, where is that exactly?”
“I think it’s in Australia, George”.
“Might keep the dust off, for sure….”
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oh, they’re over there in afganistan keeping the american soldiers off the locals are they? pacifying the aggressor?
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Well it looks like there are at least a few out there who really don’t understand what a comemeration is actually for.
As I said before, I see ANZAC day as a day that I can pay respect to the men who fought and died in the service of this country. It’s sad that a few people have decided that the memory of fallen servicemen is less important than protesting against war.
If you want to protest then do it. But don’t disrespect the people who fought and died in them.
And if you want to protest against the Vietnam war or the war in Iraq, do it on some other day.
There are always big mistakes made during any war, and sometimes the fight that people believed in was wrong. The decisions for going to war are not made by those who fight them, and the worst mistakes are not made by the men who die from them, but no matter what the reasons for war, it is the men who fight them that pay the ultimate price so if you don’t want to pay respect to the memory of the servicemen who died, noone if forcing you to.
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