by frog
Green MP Metiria Turei questions the Minister of Conservation, the Hon Steve Chadwick, as to whether she will oppose the consent application from Meridian energy to damn New Zealand’s seventh most important river ecosystem. (Yes, that was a pun.)
Meridian’s own secret impact report, which damns the project as destructive of irreplaceable biodiversity, was tabled by Meyt yesterday in Parliament. Should we be trashing some pristine wilderness for a mere 65MW hydro scheme?
Published in Campaign | Economy, Work, & Welfare | Environment & Resource Management | Parliament by frog on Wed, April 16th, 2008
Tags: biodiversity, hydro, meridian, Metiria Turei, Mokihinui, Parliament, river, steve chadwick, wilderness
on the trolls and those who are unable to keep on topic
Met is far from being my favourite Greenie however I believe in giving credit where it is due, I heard her question in the house today about drift and set net fishing and I was damn impressed.
While the rest of them acted like spoiled brats (somebody please remind the people of NZ that Winston is a joke) Met asked what I considered to be the question of the day.
My only wish is that she would stop being so PC and rip into the Maori party about their support of the NZ fishing industry, it is interesting that Maori seem to forget about conservation and “traditional” rights when it comes to their own business, one of the great unquestioned fables is the often used quote that Maori are naturally conservation minded, the sooner Met exposes that huge lie the better.
Anyway, keep it up Met, on this you have my full support, these are the issues that will see the return of the Greens to the house.
Perhaps the Greens have finally decided to take my advice and campaign on green issues, if that is so then remember it does come with conditions.
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Your ‘advice’ comes with conditions, BB, or your ‘full support’?
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nik
My advice is highly valued……(here I would insert a smiley face if I knew how to do it)
To answer your question my advice does come with conditions, however, as many of you know if these conditions are met then you will get both advice and my full support not to mention both of my votes (presuming you are actually going to stand a candidate in my electorate)
I would even be prepared to go out on these fishing boats and be an honorary inspector if Met gets her way.
I have to say Nik that supporting Met does NOT come naturally to me, I would have been much happier if Sue K or even Jeannette had asked this question.
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BB said: somebody please remind the people of NZ that Winston is a joke
Winston is a joke! There you go BB, I’ve reminded them!
But he a sick joke, with all his dogwhistling to the racist underbelly of NZ society, hoping that this will get NZF above the 5% threshold. Hopefully, it won’t, because I’m optmistic that NZ society has moved on from the xenophobic audience that politicians could play to in the Muldoon era.
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Toad
You put far to much faith in the people of NZ, remember these are the same stupid people who elected Winnie over and over again and the same stupid people who kept re-electing Clark!
Whats the bet they are all Sinclair fans as well.
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The river is very nice, and I’m sure it contains some interesting eels.
But the question remains….
How, exactly, do you intend to meet increasing power demand, and what will your options cost?
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Hey BB. I agree dolphins are green party ‘knitting’. However, they do raise bigger questions like are dolphins worth more than the inshore set net fishery (~$30), or more broadly is addressing environment/climate issues more important than economic growth. This is where your naive (in my opinion and respectfully) idea that sticking to simple “green issues” cannot but run up against the false economic mentality of the two old parties.
Also note that Metiria has ‘ripped into’ iwi commercial fishery interests in the past when they have defended the Seafood Industry COuncil’s desire to fish at all costs, including dolphin extinction.
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Oh and I presume BluePeter wades in here because he thinks that we should sacrifice a few dolphin species in order to meet increasing food demand? Come on mate, what’s driving power demand on the coast? Coal, gold and dairy. And the ‘cheapest’ cost of providing the power: dam another river cause there’s always another river, and another… I won’t sit aside and see another wild river destroyed just so Solid Energy can dig up 20 million tonnes of coal at the same time releasing heaps of methane which itself could have been used for electricity. But rivers (and dolphins) are cheap, and Meridian’s greenwash will silence the fence-sitters…
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q
I could not care less if fishing companies lose a few million so the answer to your first question is YES.
No would be my answer to your second question as climate change is a con and pushing climate change loses you as many votes as it wins.
My brilliant campaign strategy is hardly naive, it is designed to get you back in the house so you can do something about animal welfare.
And to Met..if I have missed her ripping into Iwi fishing then I do apologise, perhaps she is not as sickly PC as I thought.
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>>what’s driving power demand on the coast?
The desire to live in a first world economy.
>>I won’t sit aside and see another wild river destroyed
I like the lakes created behind dams. We have hundreds of rivers.
Again, how are you going to meet our power demands? There will always be a cost.
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BluePeter
“Again, how are you going to meet our power demands? There will always be a cost”
Given that we have about 200 years worth of coal in NZ I would have thought the answer was obvious.
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bb, You can find out how to insert a smiley face here:
http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/help-how-to/smilies-and-formatting/
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Come on, The southern hydro lakes are at 1992 levels. There is less than a month to get enough rain to recharge them before it gets too cold to rain. Yet the EC has only just issued an “advisory” to major users. Not a whisper to the public which, according to David Caygill is because “Asked if the commission had planned to announce the heightened degree of risk, Caygill said: “It’s not something we would think the public would necessarily be cognisant of …
“I don’t think the situation we’re in at this point is likely to involve public campaigns. I think it’s more a matter of the industry conserving water where they can.”
http://www.stuff.co.nz/4479931a13.html
All this in an election year. Do you really think it’s likely that the Minister of Conservation will oppose Meridena’s consent application?
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Q
The dam remains even if the gold and coal is gone… and every megawatt of fossil power displaced is solid gain…. I do prefer to diversify (hydro is vulnerable to drought years) but hydro capacity is the gold standard of power production and it is damned difficult to get.
The eels can be saved (at a price), we can have a lake, we can have power. I don’t think the economics of the next century favour us keeping “wild” rivers and I do think the weather patterns of the next century will make it increasingly unsafe to regard them as places to play.. “Flash” floods may become much more common as rainfall patterns shift….
NZ wastes a LOT of valuable clean power and water by not letting wind farms go ahead and not letting dams go ahead because someone reckons the view would be spoiled. A spinning wind generator and a placid lake can be gorgeous things… (I haven’t noticed that the Dutch suiffer so much with their dams to keep out the wild sea and their windmills) and I know that my kids will appreciate having electrical power for the electric trams, cars, heat-pumps and other devices that may allow civilized live to continue in this country. when others are losing theirs.
I may be green and vote green but I don’t agree with our (apparent) opposition to EVERY effort to increase hydro capacity ever proposed in this country. Maybe this one is ACTUALLY a bad idea, but I doubt that good or bad, it would have been accepted. If I have that perception, you can bet that the electorate won’t miss it (or the apparent hypocrisy).. That’s not a good thing to take into the election. Proposing support if a method of saving the eels is provided would be more consistent and with the condition applied we could freely oppose away without gathering that electoral handicap. It alters the “economics” of the dam and it might stop it going ahead, but it would also make it far harder to characterize our position as a reflexive action of the left leg in response to an applied stimulus.
respectfully
BJ
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Well said, BJ.
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bj
Spoken like a real New Yorker, now a North Island city dweller … (sitting there in your city and making decisions based on little thought, and “zero information” about the site in question!)
Tell me, how much time have you spent visiting the South Island?
How much of our electricity is wasted in its long transport from the south and then across Cook Strait?
How much electricity is wasted by our unthinking profligate habits?
What happens when the last wild river is damed ?
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eredwen
What happens when power demand exceeds supply?
People will riot in the streets. The politicians will appease them as quickly as possible. And the answer ‘aint going to be wind turbines.
So now, whilst you have a choice, it’s time to accept that some wild rivers are a luxury.
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Agrees with BluePeter, Well said BJ.
Common sense at last in a realistic manner. If we want electric public and private transport we need to ensure the electrical supply.
Mind you with all the industrial closures (F&P, Kopu Sawmill, Knitting factory in the South Island, etc.) the need by industrial power users is diminishing.
If the Labour party keeps going as it is, there will be no manufacturing left in New Zealand!
Eredwen,
“What happens when the last wild river is damed ?”
We have majestic, placid lakes to enjoy water activites on and under.
Able to be used by thousand of people while a wild river is good for a less then a hundred.
Rather have a wide, placid Lake Karapiro then the flowing and dangerous Waikato.
Especially when the Hydroplanes are running their races. Cant beat the sound and smell of a supercharged big block chevy. Or the sight of 50 metre tall rooster tales.
Give me a lake anytime. Kayak in safety, swim in safety, sail in safety (even if the wind is shifty), camp in safety, etc.
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Eredwen: “How much of our electricity is wasted in its long transport from the south and then across Cook Strait?”
For the Nelson River HVDC transmission line in Canada, which is 895KM, losses are 5.6%, so I’d suspect something similar for our inter-island HVDC link. Source: IEEE Transactions on Power Apparatus and Systems Volume PAS-98, Issue 6, Nov. 1979 Page(s):1924 – 1936
BJ – Applause.
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Blue Peter, Gerrit et al,
Out of interest, I ask how much is your average monthly electricity bill? (and does that cover all your household’s energy needs or do you use other sources such as natural gas etc as well?)
Our household, currently almost entirely reliant on electricity, paid $597 to Meridian over the last year. That averages out at less than $50 per month … We have yet to install solar water heating but that is next on the agenda.
We live comfortably and we live well, but we live as lightly on this beautiful Planet as we can, trying to use no more than “our share”.
We certainly won’t be part of your mob throwing tantrums in the streets!!
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>>We certainly won’t be part of your mob throwing tantrums in the streets
That doesn’t solve your problem. People will demand more electricity, and they’ll get it. If you want the solution to that problem to be greenish, then you’d best not wait until crisis point.
The Greens need to put forward a coherent energy strategy.
Limiting everyone isn’t going to fly.
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dbuckley
Thanks for the info!
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Eredwen
My power bill averages out at about $400-$500 per month, how on earth you manage on $50 is beyond me.
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bb,
Amazed at how high your power bill is.We are about 220
Nicely put BJ
Bring back Project Aqua I reckon. Sacrifice one to get the baseload we need, complement it with wind, tidal, general efficiency and whatever and save the rest of the rivervalleys.
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BluePeter
The problem is (and will remain) that “more” is never enough.
I have the experience of having lived in our family home for 63 years.
The house, designed in 1923 by a top architectural group of that time, was built to take advantage of the sun for heating and well placed windows for total ventilation etc, (and is now keenly sought after by the affluent because of its spectacular views).
When my parents bought it in 1945 there wasn’t even one electric plug per room. Now there are several multiplugs per room, some with multiple appliances attached.
Living here in this now “desirable” neighbourhood has taught me that, when one gets down to it, the life lived by the original owners of this house and by the current owners were/are not very different.
It is the expectations and the “me first” attitudes that have changed.
Perhaps, not too far into the future, these attitudes will need to change back to more cooperative thinking to suit the times (…”they are a changing” to quote that Peter Paul and Mary song!)
Somewhere along the line “limiting everyone” may just have to fly!
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My bill is around $150 a month. My base load is 480W, and that is something I am looking into very hard, as any reductions there will save me significantly and save the planet just a little bit.
Cent-a Meter rocks.
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eredwen,
$110 per month. However if we take into consideration that we get a divindend of $320 per year from our power company (being community owned trust) that brings the average bill down to $83.00.
And in now way are we frugal.
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>>Somewhere along the line “limiting everyone? may just have to fly!
It gels with the Green ascetic ethic, but I’m not sure it mirrors reality.
Providing abundant domestic energy isn’t a particularly difficult problem, unless we make it one. The technology and resources are readily available in this country.
I will not be restricting my power use, as there is simply no need to. I also prefer lakes to “wild” rivers….
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eredwen asked:
“How much of our electricity is wasted in its long transport from the south and then across Cook Strait?”
Electricity flows from South to North at times of high peak demand in the North Island, since the South Island has most of the hydro generation and can turn that on and off quickly, while the North Island has more thermal plant that is better run for long intervals. When the demand is lower, electricity flows from the North Island to the South Island to preserve the water in the South Island lakes. Increased hydro generation in the South Island from another river would therefore decrease the amount needed to be sent South and therefore would reduce electricity losses.
Trevor.
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bJ, thanks, but the point is that the eels cannot be saved – the report Metiria tabled in parliament this week that Meridian was reluctant to release says that there is no way to offset the loss of biodiversity including the eels. this dam has a biodiversity price no matter what you do. even pulling a dam down elsewhere is not sufficient. So it is WAY more than landscape views or nimby stuff. Not all projects are this serious: the original proposal for Dobson/Arnold would have flooded Card Creek ecological area with a rare lowland podocarp forest, but a compromise scheme of 35MW is nearly approved including a white water park (see Feb Wilderness mag). We’ve given a lot of rivers to large hydro in NZ (but not yet much landscape to wind or solar, let alone wave or tidal) and we need to carefully assess hydro proposals. Run-of-river and micro-hydro are less impactful than large hydro.
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BB said: My power bill averages out at about $400-$500 per month
What the hell do you do, BB – heat a swimming pool to 28 degrees for 24 hours a day?
I don’t know how eredwen keeps hers that low, but mine seldom tops $140 per month, and with a crook back I have lots of baths for pain relief.
Mind you, BB, I don’t know how big your houshold is. For me there is just me and my wife, as the kids have flown the nest. But even so, I think there really are some things you could do to reduce it. You obviously can afford to pay that sort of electrcity bill, but that level of usage is part of the excuse to build another dam somewhere or, worse, another coal fired or gas fired power station.
I don’t know your personal circusmtances BB, but your household bill is so high that I think there are measures you could and should take to conserve electricity in the interests of the planet, as well as reducing your expenses by a couple of hundred dollars a month – another $2400 a year you could invest somewhere, no doubt.
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Genesis’s 480MW gasfired proposal was notified on 3 April. Thanks to Trevor29 for mentioning it in an earlier entry on Mokihinui – the media’s ignoring it apart from a short piece in the DomPost. Genesis’s Rodney proposal is configured as a BASELOAD thermal plant but obviously they can run it as a peaker to get around the baseload ban. Trevor Mallard and David Parker said this week “in order to ensure that security of supply can be maintained in the future, it is practical to have consented sites to allow for future construction of generation… Genesis did not require approval from shareholding Ministers to apply for consent.” Submissions on Genesis’s plan change request and 15 resource consent applications close on 16 May. All documention is on a CD and available from the Auckland Regional Council.
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Unfortunately greed may win though I hope not.
We need to learn about “enoughness”.
When is enough, enough? Instead of more – more power hungry toys, more things. More rivers destroyed.
In Germany (and other places) they are building houses which are totally self sufficient for energy.
If every new house had to have mandatory solar hot water heating at least, we probably wouldn’t need that new dam. There are so many other alternative power solutions. There was another interesting new one on a recent episode of “Wasted”. Don’t have the details though. It was an outside box – an alternative to solar – involved some type of heat transfer. Anyone see that?
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We’re just under $200 here, and we run central heating and a spa pool.
BTW: Promote BJ Chip to top of the Green Party list. You’d increase your share of the vote.
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I’m all for self-sufficient houses. We were discussing this the other night, with similar minded friends (all Nat and ACT voters, as far as I’m aware), and we were discussing the merits of solar water heating.
If the government gave us all a tax free loan to cover the cost, we’d all do it in an instant. I’m aware there are some breaks, but compared to the cost of the system, the numbers still don’t work. Then we got sidetracked onto the topic how the government never gives us any breaks at all, only takes…..
What is the comparative cost of building more power generation vs tax break incentives for house conversion?
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Hey BB
Friends of ours have a $400 p/m power bill, similar to yours, yet their house runs less than we do. Our bill is $200 p/m. They have a similar sized house, of a similar age. They’re trying to work out where the problem is. I suspect its their hot water cylinder, whilst we use hot water on-demand.
Do you mind me asking what appliance/heating etc configurations you’re running? You appear to have a similar billing level to them.
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BP
You can ask anything you like, I will reply without spin!.
We do not have a hot water cylinder, all our water is gas heated, the heating is via DVS system and underfloor heating.
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Thanks BB.
I’ve heard underfloor heating can be expensive to run? Has that been your experience?
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Our average is $120 month. The same as it was in 1994 despite adding a bigger TV, a bigger fridge, a computer and Saturn. The trick is to do all the simple DIY things. Insulate the water heater, thermal drapes, replace those Victprian light bulbs with newer technology. But most importantly check the ceiling isulation. If it was installed in the 70s it is probably only R1.1, about the same thickness as the Herald. Put some R3.3 or R5 on top. Makes a world of difference for comfort.
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Yep…however it is fantastic.
Mind you, nothing beats the smell and the feel of a real fire, when I lived in the UK I used to love walking home at night and smelling all the fires going.
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We’ve got Savona radiator central heating, gas fired. The bills are pretty reasonable.
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I really don’t understand the Green’s stance on power generation any more.
I thought they wanted renewable energy?
Hydro power is probably the most efficient and reliable source of renewable energy.
It does have it’s disadvantages as the Greens have pointed out, but what is the alternative when reducing energy use is no longer enough?
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I can’t speak for the Greens, but more renewable energy is required. However that doesn’t mean that any particular renewable energy scheme is required. There are plenty of possibilities, so this particular scheme needs to be judged on whether its impact is worst or less than similarly priced alternatives. From what I’ve heard so far, the general opinion seems to be that this particular scheme should not go ahead.
Wind energy seems to be the flavour of the month in some circles, and probably does yield a very competitive price per kiloWatt-Hour. However it is very intermittant and therefore is limited in application.
Geothermal is having a resurgence. Most new geothermal installations reinject their used water and use air-cooling, minimising their impact. This gives baseload power with a very high availability – over 95%. My own opinion is that more geothermal plant should be installed and run less of the time if necessary, in load-following mode, conserving the heat when the wind is blowing and the demand is low, so it is available when the demand is higher and can’t be met by wind generation.
We have very good wave and tidal flow resources – which aren’t being used at all. I haven’t seem a figure for our tidal flow resource, but it would be in the GigaWatts and available around 50% of the time. Much of our coast averages 70+ kiloWatts per metre of wave energy. Even if only 20 kiloWatts per metre is harnessed, one kilometre of coast could support 20 MegaWatts of generation. Although wave generation is also intermittant, it varies much more slowly than wind and is more easily predicted in advance, so it is easier to integrate into our power system.
There are alternatives…
Trevor.
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“a placid lake can be gorgeous things…” Except Lakes Tekapo and Pukaki at this time of year. They look like student bath tubs. Not a pretty sight. Lake Dunstan still has drowned trees sticking out of the water. Very dispiriting and unsightly.
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An idea…
Hydro dams are ‘stored gravity’ as there is no way to store electricity in bulk. How about using the river flow to generate elektrickery when power is needed and to ‘crack’ and store hydrogen at times of spare capacity. That hydrogen could then be reused in large industrial fuel cells, either to generate power again or to drive industry directly. Hydrogen, it seems to me, has far more potential in large scale operations than the current (too hard basket) vehicle applications. that would mean smaller dams extracting energy from nearly every bit of water flowing past their powerhouses. In the existing scenario how much of the water flowing down a river and over a dam actually gets to produce electricity, does anyone know?
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Oh and how would the losses associated in bulk hydrogen production/distribution/consumption compare with hydro electricity and it’s associated grid etc?
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I see the Greens are down to 3%-4% in the latest poll.
You really need to stop opposing everything, and start being more constructive, along the lines of how BJ Chip is talking.
Hydro is sustainable, yet you’re sending mixed messages.
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Buzz: In a recent episode of wa$ted the white magic water heater was a heat pump, this unit here. There are several manufacturers other manufacturers including Rheem. They seem to cost about $5K. In operation, they (like the typical heat pump) shift about three times as much heat as one puts electricity in, so another way to look at it is that it will reduce your hot water heating cost by two thirds.
Because of the need for a large capital investment up-front, like solar hot water, they wont be attractive to many people. While gas is still not stupidly expensive, a Rheem gas fired instant hot water system is of much lower cost, and thus probably a better investment.
Samian: The only useful way to store electricity is to use a hydro scheme, and pump water from a lower reservoir to an upper reservoir when you have excess electricity. Read about it on Wikipedia here.
Trevor29: The real problem faced by folks who want to see electrical generation be more environmentally friendly than burning more coal is that by and large such people are unable to put proposals on the table. The only stuff that gets built is stuff that makes it through proposal, consenting and finance, and most such proposals are from big ugly organisations with non-green credentials and intent.
BP: Applause.
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I’ve seen diagrams of a solar heater going into a heat sink under a building.
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Probably correct BP, but what has changed since the Greens polled 9% around xmas I think, went down, then went up to 9.5 again a few weeks ago?
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# BluePeter Says:
April 19th, 2008 at 9:54 am
BTW: Promote BJ Chip to top of the Green Party list. You’d increase your share of the vote.
……….
Applause also. Too many people up there are too far removed in point of view from the general (green) population.
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Pumped storage is NOT the only way of storing electricity.
Vanadium flow batteries are already being used for this purpose on King Island as I pointed out on another thread:
http://www.vrbpower.com/docs/media/Windpower011307.pdf
Pumped storage has the advantage when it comes to large installations, if the geography permits. Vanadium flow batteries are better suited to smaller installations and can be distributed where needed.
Vanadium flow batteries are not hypothetical proposals by academic staff. They are real, and operating in Australia, Japan, and the USA and I expect other countries as well. A contract has been signed for a system in Ireland. One plant was established in 2001, so it is no longer new technology either.
Trevor.
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In a wet warm spring the hydro lakes in the McKenzie basin have to spill huge amounts of water to stay below thier safe maximum levels. Frequently the dams on the Waitaki will also be full so this huge amount of water is completely wasted. Trevor or Samiam’s ideas would allow the water to be spilled through the turbines instead of down spillways. The stored electricity could then be used in late summer when the lakes are low enough not to have to worry about overflowing in heavy rains.
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Sorry Kevyn, the amount of electricity that can be stored in batteries is too small to make an impact on lake levels. Essentially batteries can smooth out the demand and supply over a day/night cycle, but can’t smooth out seasonal variations.
Pumped storage systems are essentially hydro storage systems anyway, so they cannot be expected to add significant extra storage. IMHO the most likely candidate for a pumped hydro storage system (if we need one) is Benmore/Aviemore, although a site in the North Island would be better.
Before we need such systems, we should consider using the excess electricity in industrial or commercial applications that currently use fossil fuels – particularly gas and oil. The cycle efficiency of batteries is of the order of 80%. Pumped storage can achieve higher (I believe) but has additional transmission losses.
Trevor.
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The Mokihinui was once a river deep enough for barges to sail up to take out the logs milled in the area.
What we now have is a silted up river prone to large floods.
About 1929 the top fell off a mountain damming part of the river, forming lakes & sent tons of rubble down the river.
So which pristine river are we talking about?
Power for the West Coast that is not sourced from elsewhere
& a river that has controlled floods rather than wiping out half Seddonville every few years would be wonderful for the Coast.
So please tell me again why people who have never set foot in the district think they know what is best for the Coast.
Oh I forgot “what would a bunch of ferals know about anything” we just live here.
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Trevor, Another alternative that springs to mind after listening to Jeanette’s speech is to ensure that the grid can easily carry this amount of electricity to areas currently dependent on fossil fueled power stations. Then when there is surplus water it could be used to generate enough electricity to crash the spot price and force the fossil plants to close down or lose money. It can take several weeks to spill the lakes down to a safe level without damaging river ecosystems and it is viable to shut down and restart thermal plants on that time scale.
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I assume that they already run the hydro lakes down from brimming by backing off the thermal generation as a matter of routine.
Reinforcing the grid to allow flexibility of generation is pretty much a given if you are serious about using renewable resources.
Trevor.
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dbuckley wrote:
“While gas is still not stupidly expensive, a Rheem gas fired instant hot water system is of much lower cost, and thus probably a better investment.”
I think this should read “While gas is still stupidly not expensive…”
Gas prices will go up – a lot. It is just a question of time. Then a gas-fired hot water system will be a liability, not an investment. Hot water heat pumps are a better long-term prospect IMHO.
Trevor.
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There’s a bit on that
http://www.rugbyheaven.co.nz/waikatotimes/4466542a22355.html
Do NOT ask my why the word ‘rugbyheaven’ is there!
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Seeing as this seems to be about energy and water, I thought this might be of interest.
http://www.iags.org/n0813043.htm#top
It’s more aimed at the US situation, but with the growing demand for water in NZ for things like power generation, agriculture and human use, it might be worth thinking about.
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Neptune Power have been granted resource consent for a trial tidal flow turbine in Cook Strait:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/4481242a13.html
The article goes on to say they estimate that Cook Strait could generate 12GigaWatts of power, but don’t say whether this is peak or average. Its a fair bit either way.
Trevor.
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Nepture have approval for a tidal flow turbine in Cook Strait:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/4481242a13.html
Trevor.
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