by Russel Norman
Ross Meurant’s interview on Morning Report is well worth a listen if you missed it. Meurant is a former leading police officer and right wing politician. Meurant says that “police are a subculture that tend to look at everyone as villains” with a ”tendency to exaggerate”. He says that this filter means that information gathering by police is very flawed.
“As I look at it now I can see that I had been brainwashed to the extent that I actually believed the nonsense that we were producing out of the police. The information we were getting in and the decisions we were reaching were too subjective. There was no man on the clapham bus sitting outside and looking in and saying ‘Is this a reasonable conclusion to draw based on the information you have collected’”. And judges when they made out warrants were basing them on the conclusions that police drew.
On the anti-terrorism laws: “What it does is gives instruments of the state such as the police and the SIS an excuse and an opportunity to spy on us all.”
He thinks we will see a few arms charges, which don’t need the terrorism laws to make, plus some conspiracy charges. He thinks the whole episode is an overreaction..
And on NZ First: “What Ron [Mark] seems to miss is that the police also have to abide by the rule of law”. Good point Ross!
Published in Environment & Resource Management by Russel Norman on Fri, October 19th, 2007
Tags: environment
More posts by Russel Norman | more about Russel Norman
on the trolls and those who are unable to keep on topic
“What it does is gives instruments of the state such as the police and the SIS an excuse and an opportunity to spy on us all.?
If only he’d read them…
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Interesting Ross, and thanks for speaking your mind.
I don’t know about including “Police” as one single entity.
They are a large (and valuable) part of our population. I think their Members would constitute a fairly diverse range of social backgrounds – and possibly their individual opinions would reflect that.
But they do the most difficult and challenging of jobs.
Thank God the dangerous bits are the exception rather than the rule in New Zealand.
Because these issues are a little less common (than say DUI’s accidents, intercepting drunks) mayhap the decision making process is not as good.
I think it is merely human to make ‘off’ calls when under pressure. Within reason, I concede them taking a ‘better safe than sorry’ approach.
The Police Association and the Government have both acknowledged that getting good quality recruits is a bigger priority today.
Everyone seems on the same page here.
For me, as a former Public Servant, the questions are; (a) What were their instructions and (b) How did the Source instructions filter down? Mistakes do cost a lot of money and help no one.
I have seen a number of examples of people mis-informing Police, either as a way of trying to get their percieved ‘enemies’ into some sort of trouble, or to simply divert attention away from themselves. Our local Station seems pretty good in judging this.
Often our people are asked to make on-the-spot calls which just ain’t easy.
In this case however, some sort of Operation was underway for a whole year! Your statement is helpfull in the face of ‘I dunno’ from the Police Minster.
However – if the Compensation for Damages side was robust enough (and it just isn’t), maybe we would see more accurate info being sourced, better decisions being made. False source informants made responsible….
The days when Courtrooms were cloistered, special language clubs, could perhaps be improved upon.
I have faith in our Judges – and there’s another tough job!
But no, some fine fine people I know have joined the force – for all the right reasons. In some ways they (the Police) attract some of our best – you know, people who are prepared to be brave and do a tough job well.
I asked how one of them was going lately. He tells me he’s tired of picking up baby parts from the Great Southern Motorway – personally, I’ve known him all my life and never seen him look so sad.
Yes they must abide by the rule of Law, but are also entitled to the inbuilt protection provided to us all.
People achieve their best when working together – I think, especially in a small country, dividing people into ‘them and us’ (whoever does it) is a big mistake.
with thanks mark
ps
(this reads back to me as idealist fluff!)
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So what he and you are saying we should all be worried because a far left leaning estabilshment which has proven it will do unlimited character assassination to impose its view of the world on everyone has special powers and is not afraid to use them. Well isn’t that what we’ve been telling you guys for years? Or do you just believe these crackpots running around with petrol bombs are outside the law?
With these two choices you really are starting to scare me.
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Mark : excellent post.
Our local Station seems pretty good in judging this.
Well, it would. That’s appropriate decision-making. The problem is that, on a national level, the police bigwigs seem to have neither more nor less wisdom than the local cop-shop. And so, when the national instructions filter back down to the uncomprehending local plod, it can get pretty incongruous.
Meurant is right, there is no impartial actor that can moderate police over-reaction. One remedy would be to institute an independent public prosecutor. The police arrest who they like, but the prosecutor takes over immediately to examine the evidence and see if there’s a case to answer.
I’d have liked to be a fly on the wall when the cops disrupted the yeastless bread seminar and seized the Swedish banker’s computer and underwear… I sense a film scenario in the making.
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Is it true Fontera put the price of milk up locally 10c (inelastic demand?) to increase the increased payout to farmers???
A farmer friend told me that.
……………………………………………………………..
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jh..of course they do..
the cost of that white poison to locals is screwed up to the max..
yet they don’t need to..
the local market is a small part of their overall market..
they are just greedy exploitive bastards..(of the animals..and local consumers of their ‘white-death’.
and they say ..they are ‘not in the business of subsidising the local market’..
so..let me be sure i’ve got this right..
they are greedy exploitive bastards..flogging dodgy product..
making money hand over fist..
poisoning our country..
and they get an emmissions/pollution-free-pass..
untill 2014..
(am i missing something here..?..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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I think that the cops were just the meat in the sandwich here – which doesn’t excuse their bully boy tactics. Following orders from the top. Apparently our laws do not yet allow people to be held without trial or charges being laid for unlimited time. Until the Terrorism Suppression Bill is passed that is.
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Kevin: Hi.
Basically it’s Just Too Early to Tell.
Far Left Organizations? I thought they were pretty much done with here – not sure who you mean.
I think the defamation Laws are some protection against “unlimited character assassination” though t’would be easier if Lawyers were allowed to work pro-bono more.
If not that, intervention orders might be of some use against actual stalkers. Our entrapment laws can cross with stalking and harrassment law.
I’ve been living overseas for some decades; the NZ I left behind is gone now. (a lot of it for the better, a lot of it just plain gone) I am largely ignorant of modern New Zealand. If I’m wrong about stuff, I’m sorry. (I’m actually trying to learn).
“Crackpots running round with petrol bombs” seems pre-emptive. Floated by the Media who have been manifestly Reckless.
Irresponsible in posting our country (worldwide) as having terrorist activity. A Revolution no less!
They are Desperate to sell Papers, and yes, at the cost of our Number One Industry, tourism.
The proof isn’t in yet. Gee, the Evidence ain’t even tabled.
It’s all still under investigation.
Way too early for a verdict…I’ll bet Tame is playing this like a Violin – hugely enjoying his fame – it could make him a millionaire.
The watchers sometimes make themselves known. Try to intimidate – Tame probably talked it up to the max, whistles bells and a lot of junk male.
Rural Landowners have been issued with dynamite since colonial times. The setting of roads watercourses and drains, accessibility to rugged and steep land…judicious use, with qualified engineers has been a good thing. Our DIY approach to this has put a lot of ‘legitimate’ users in Hospital.
But what of those who see a ‘Bushy’ letting off an explosion of some kind.
Misunderstanding might take entirely the wrong message away
– a witness could scamper from the area wailing ” Bombs, Guns, Mayhem – one of Al Kidda’s Camps! I have every sympathy for them – that can be one terrifying interpretation. A lot of people see the bush as a peaceful refuge (as i do). To be confronted with guns – unacceptable…..
Are the Police obliged to check it out – yeah – I would hope so.
Did they need a year? I guess Tame did some viruoso work on the phone. Talked it way up as payback for putting a truck thru his privacy
ANYWAY – I would stand down to Defcon Nine about the whole thing right now. A few gun charges is all we got, the ringleaders held pending discovery.
The Newspapers are already surging toward the Sport Section with this story – signs they might soon wanna re-appraise their language on this one. Proof is proof and Gossip is for the birds.
Try writing this to a Newspaper? – no chance – it’s partly why people are deserting the Print Media in droves.
My concern is that the Police Minister has no knowlege or comment about a year long investigation into Terrorism in NZ. These people were active all that time…..what if…
Something that is her very business to know.
best wishes mark
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I’d challenge anyone to go out in the cars with the Police on a Saturday night as an observer. It’s a real education. While I’m not claiming the police, or any organisation, to be perfect, they do a tough job and make many judgment calls over the course of a shift.
They’re human, too.
And as for these “think of the children!” crys of woe – give me a break! Kids in big cities overseas often see armed police.
“Scarred for life” is getting a little bit amateur dramatics, eh….
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Hi Mark, I think it is probably a storm in a teacup and will result in a few firearms and bomb charges. I agree it is better to pre-empt than to wait for someone to get killed and I agree a year if true is a terribly long time to have people scared off from visiting the bush.
I also totally agree our MSM stirs the pot on every issue these days across the political spectrum because they are so desperate about the new found free speech and interchange of ideas the citizenery have that it must be affecting their pocket books.
To clear up a couple of things, I was talking about
“What it does is gives instruments of the state such as the police and the SIS an excuse and an opportunity to spy on us all.?
and the far left leaning establishment is our very own government.
Perhaps Ross is right and this operation is a veiled threat to all of us.
It is unbelievable that you could say most of the changes are for the best in NZ – just wait till our crime rate knocks some sense into you – I have been about tourists in NZ for a long time because of our crime against them, so you reminded me of a possible good outcome from all of this, thanks.
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(ahem..!..)..i was all over the meurant-angle/explanation way back on the 17th..
(and the paul buchanan-angle/explanation..)
reason number 53 to read whoar every day..
eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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What, you have a blog Phil? News to me.
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hello zen..
does lucyna still want to ‘stone’ gays..?
(and not in a nice way..?..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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an ahem ..!..zen..!
’tis not a ‘blog’..per se..
more a national/international-focussed news-service..
eh..?
(y’know..!..footnotes/supporting-links..and all that..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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and did you know that police commissioner broad was the chief investigative officer on the peter ellis case..?
um..!..hould that not ring ‘fabulist’ alarm bells..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Kevin: Some things are better – not by any means Most.
But then I left during the stewardship of the Prime Minister the Rt Hon. Sir Robert Muldoon – whose reign I am still not able to discuss rationally or with any geat equanimity. He preferred Civil War to Civil Rights.
And our crime rates ugh! A three thousand dollar outboard stolen (witnesses and all)and our thin Blue Rep tells me to get it back myself.
A complaint brought me punishment for complaining.
It’s a real piece of work to keep supporting the Institution of Law Enforcement while trying to swallow completely unneccesary negligence by some of it’s individuals – thank God for transfers and new Thinking on the block here – tho it’s bye bye boat for, me and the whole community (it’s a nineteen seater lifeboat and, having my skippers license I thought to offer free trips to kids, the elderly, the local iwi, basically anyone who wanted to share it). Could have even caught a few fish for some of my poorer (in money) neighbours. Well not no more.
The ‘if you can’t lift it smash it Brigade’ also passed through – only I didn’t make myself sick by complaining this time.
The Labour Party used to be Left of centre – in the finest tradition – sticking up for workers, the poor, the underpriveliged, schools, social justice and welfare etc etc etc. – just look at the current sorry Mob.
They are nothing like their founders – in going toward centre to grab the votes, they left their finest traditions behind.
So we have the only Comedian/Terrorist (yet to be proved, he’s still Mr Iti to me). in the World simply clapped in irons now – mayhap they’re scared of what he might say, given the abhorrent danger of letting people express an opinion.
That my friend, would have Labour Leaders of the past hurling Chuck in their graves. Amongst them are some real Heroes – todays bunch – fughedaboudit!
regards mark
ps: If you’re concerned about the Spying that goes on (and I can recall 30 years of this in NZ) Make an appointment to see one of our Senior Civil Servants in the beauracracy of your concern, and ask ‘em what they want! You’ll get a good laugh if nothing else – otherwise request “Full Disclosure” in writing if you think you have a file.
NZ Public Institutions have always been an altogether too nosey bunch – their census questions like “What Ethnicity are You?” (and don’t try saying New Zealander) would cause a full blown riot in Countries like Australia or the US where Discrimination of this kind is ferretted out and Very Publically Quashed.
have a great day mark
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Mark was Fair when he said that we all tend to label people by the groups to which they belong whether it be Police, the Green party or the bakers union (if indeed there is still one!) Groups are made up of individuals who can but often don’t stand by their own integrity.
Individuals choose to become police for whatever reason, so do politicians. However we often are confronted by “childish behavior in Parliament” and bullying in the front line police, “we know best” syndromes and a spread of stretched truths, abuse of power and cover ups in both camps. Its the same in any group.
However I cannot understand what happens to integrity, honesty and wisdom when the “good’uns” stand by and let the “bad’ns” step over the line often time and time again. Shipton, Shollum, Dewer and Rickards being a prime example. So lets see more individuals standing up for these higher qualities.
So yes Ross Meurant is perfectly correct about sub cultures and distorted perceptions – he should know – he has been honest enough to step out of the confines of the box. The 12 USA Iraq veterans captains who recently said publicly that the US should pullout of Iraq because it is a disaster and will continue to be so – have also done the same. But the fear to be accountable for your integrity is commonplace among us all – the” You are with us or against us” mentality -is a group weapon
Groups, humanity, populations are ultimately made up of individuals who have to make their own choices. The general public is also made up of individuals who have to make decisions – “who am I going to vote for in the next election?”
So we put Politicians “good or bad” into a group so that they can spend time doing what is best for us, Ministers of Police are there because we put them there, and as for the Police “good or bad” – they are our public servants, in our pay, carrying out the tasks directed by the people we put into government. I sometimes wonder if either group has forgotten that fact.
Can either be trusted to present the truth…..mmmmmm now that is a very philosophical question. I guess in the end we each have to ask ourselves “do we trust ourselves”! Can we be individuals and yet be in a collective – for the sake of humanity and our collective spirit – I sincerely hope so.
best wishes Michael
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Because the good uns have to make deals with the bad uns politicians on the whole cannot be trusted. It is now long overdue that the majority of NZers became more vocal in their demands that politicians are there to represent, not to dicatate. On the major issues there should be informed bionding referenda or at least properly run opinion polls on which polis were bound to act. At present they tend to hide behind a non-transparent and very bureaucratic consultation process and the final decisions often make no logical sense, although the reasons why they go for the non-intuitive policies are never explained properly.
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Police: ” The head of the police union says he hopes those who have criticised this week’s police raids will be as public with their apologies when the facts are revealed….Mr O’Connor said emotional manipulation was being used to fuel an anti police backlash and he hoped those who had spoken out publicly against the raids would be as public with their apologies once the full facts were released.”
I wonder.
I’ll be watching for statements from the Maori Party, The Greens, and the “Peace” Movement….
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Ross is wrong. The police have not over-reacted. In fact they have been under-reacting for years. Any farmer in the backblocks will tell you that crime and activism threaten the peace and happiness of ordinary citizens everywhere, wherever good citizens just happen to live further than 10 minutes drive from a police station.
After they have exposed and dealt with the renegade neanderthals who seem to enjoy playing rambo in the Uruweras, harbouring dreams of liberating NZ from the scourge of the white man, maybe the police can also head up to Northland and deal to the neanderthals up there.
Contrary to Pita Sharples comments that this episode has taken Maori/Pakeha relations back 100 years, it has in fact advanced them by 20. At last we are beginning to confront the dirty underbelly of unreasonable contemporary Maori hatred for innocent non-Maori.
I figured the boil would not be lanced for many years yet, but perhaps, just perhaps, we are finally seeing the beginnings of the totally appropriate loss-of-patience we should be showing toward those who wish ill and evil upon those of us who have never done Maori any wrong. They hate us simply because of our race.
And how sad it is that Maori “activism” (terrorism??) seems to attract so many non-Maori malcontents determined to make themselves feel bigger by condemning their fellow man, and practising throwing molotovs and napalm. Sad, sad, sad.
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it was bite the tongue time today..
i came out of the central library..to see/hear a demo in aotea square..
it was an anti-police tewwowwist one..
and keith locke and sue bradford were there..
i almost had to tie myself to the ground to stop myself going and asking them why they were there demonstrating..
when at the moment they are supporting this poxy election reform bill..
and the testing/prosecuting of pot smokers..
as in..wtf were they thinking..?
i didn’t..
and am unsure whether i should or not..
one thingthat stopped me was fear of me just venting..and effing and b’ing al over the place…
what stopped me in part was this blog..
in that anything i would have said to them has already been said here..or at whoar..
but then..they have never answered anything on this forum..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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PEL, can you tell me what exactly the Green Party should apologise for?
greengeek, I was wondering what you were referring to when you said ‘any farmer in the backblocks will tell you that … activism threaten[s] the peace and happiness of ordinary citizens everywhere’. Gee I didn’t know that activists were so (a) numerous and (b) dangerous.
I’m really struggling to think what on earth you can be talking about. I even phoned up a farmer I know and he’d never had any problems with activists around his property.
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There are too many being political opportunitsts on this and conspiracy theories do no one any good here (now a criminal matter).
Everyone should be judged on what they have done, not motives assumed by others.
It’s probably unfortunate that so many were targeted at the same time when the terrorist word was used, rather than “various groups of people under observation who were viewed as having strayed into criminal activites? have been arrested (leaving the media to focus on the charges laid rather than associate the matter with the terrorist word).
The approach left us on world news as having some “indigenous insurgency? – when we would prefer to simply be the next hosts of the World Cup in 2011 at this time.
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Spc – You’ll need a little more water than that to put this one out Baby – like drop your feed line into Taupo – no fish there anyway…we let our properties run down so the Burglars don’ think we’re rich – looks bad to the many passing tourists but hell.
Also – Peter who enters Right – roll that Flag up and dry your eyes will you? It is the paid responsibility of our Politicians to ask and answer questions about all manner of things.
If you can wait til next year – no one will able to ask or answer a damnned thing!
The Minister who has held unethical and unprecedented control of the SS Portfolio will be running things.
She’s studying Bananarama now…
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and that not responding to/answering our concerns as voiced here can only be down to one of two things really..
(and neither of them particularly ‘savoury’..)
one is..they are now so arrogant/’out of touch’.. they feel ‘they don’t have to answer the questions/concerns of us mug-punters..
or..that they ‘have no answers’..
(take your pick..!..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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and i’ll repeat my warning to you..
should you continue to conspire with labour to force this legislation through ‘under urgency’..
the people will eventually ‘wake-up’..
and your punishment will be delivered via the ballot box..
should you go ahead with this ‘plan’..
you face being swept away in the growing tide of impatience with the authoritarian manifestations of this government..
manifestations you have clasped to your bosoms..
in a move which is the biggest (political) w.t.f? of all of recent years..
the green party up to its’ neck in represssive legislation..(?)
and um..!..can you not hear the train yet..?..a’ coming down the tracks..?
(and my ‘surreal-moment’ of the weekend..
was listening to keith locke yesterday..
banging on about ‘government repression of dissidents’..
(someone give that man a reality-bath..
and gee..!..
i wonder what his mum would have had to say about legislation like this..?
eh..?..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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she’d likely have given him a ‘stiff/stern-talking-to’..
and maybe even a ‘clip around the ear..’
eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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and another fair question to ask is..
what would rod have though of this legislation..?
would he have been able to see past the exclusive brethren at the end of the greens’-nose..?
and been horrified by the implications/outcomes of this legislation..?
and where are the feckin”protest groups’..?
can not they also not see past the ends of their noses..?
(do/can they not see that successfully ‘muzzling’ the right next year..
(as is clearly..this legislations intent..)
can..and will..be also used against them..?
in the future..?
wake up people..!
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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http://civilrightsdefence.org.nz/
and of course, Indymedia is always worth a look.
Given that Meurant was such a prick as an MP, and even worse when he was a cop, his criticisms/comments could be seen as either wildly hypocritical, or a cynical dig at those in charge, who must have been junior officers when he was a sworn officer.
Makes you think, eh?
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no..not really katie..
yes..meurant was a prick..
(also as a drug squad cop..he was notoriously phallic-like….)
that dosen’t necessarily mean his perceptions/observations from that time are flawed/inaccurate..
does it..?
your smearing of the man..while ignoring his message..
is somewhat ‘orwellian’/'four legs good..two legs bad’..
..n’est ce pas..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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According to the Bay of Plenty Times, the police refused to investigate an alleged white collar theft of $30,000 from a charitable organisation because they did not have the resources to do so. Obviously intimidating pensioners and playing Rambo in the Ururewas takes priority over investigating real crime.
http://www.epf.org.nz
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mmm. so easy to pass judgment before we know all the facts.
Let’s just wait and see what the charges end up being.
The thought of paramilitaries with unlicensed guns and Molotov cocktails ( and may be conspiring to effect assassination) should be a concern to all who value a free society.
If this is the evidence that the police amassed then they were correct in their actions were they not?
Our judicial system, concerning custodial remands, compares very leniently with that of most foreign states for alleged serious crimes.
I just hope that the authorities have the political will to pursue what is necessary through the courts.-This for the sake of US ALL and not for a minority of anarchist.
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Is Mr O’Connor in favour of a non police influenced Police Complaints Authority? I can’t recall if he’s ever said.
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And it seems as if Meurant has actually seen the light and admitted he was wrong. That can only be a good thing, surely? And the fact that he was one of them makes him more credible, not less.
http://www.epf.org.nz
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Wish I’d been there phil; I always miss the fun. As the father of responsible Maori children who are disgusted at recent events and who I try in vain to get to be proud of their Maori heritage I would have liked to ask Minto, the MP and the crimson greens a few questions. Like how come they always want to be part of the problem instead of part of the solution like my wife has been bringing up hard working responsible Maori children.
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sheesh kevin..
why are you ragging on minto..?
he was a warrior against the racist apartheid sth african system..
what’s not to like about that history..?
and be clear..i had no objection to anyone else being there..
and i fully support them demonstrating about/against this micky mouse ‘tewwowwist’ bulls##t..
however..the hypocrisy of those supporting repressive legislation on the one hand..and mouthing platitudes against repression on the other..
rankled/glared/grated somewhat..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Labour Day at Last – time for me to make constructive, not cynical postulations – the intent can look different in print. I seek ideas, not personality. Criticism is easy but ‘could I have done any better?’ No.
Me Dad says Politics attract some of the Best people (who could make a Fortune in the Private Sector, without all the static) and I think we are exceptionally well served here in NZ.
That’s because all our Pollies have made sacrifices, and put in a lot of hard work. They deserve respect for that.
MMP must be a rough chariot to steer and I think our PM deserves that high approval rating…..I hope I’m grown up enough to support anyone who strives to make a brave new system better. Success must be hard won…..
Incidentally – they’ve netted Bin Scroungin’
Bin Thievin’ – Bin Burglarizin’ – and Bin Dealin’.
Unable to locate ‘Bin Workin’…….
ah there i go again
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I don’t think Helen would have made a fortune in the private sector. I think she would have been a distinguished academic, largely unknown to the general public. That’s not to disparage her in any way : I don’t tend to judge people by their earning power. I think there are loads of people who would never rise very high in the private sector despite their qualities, because they value knowledge, excellence and the public good more than personal gain. To make a fortune in the private sector you have to be ruthless and manipulative…
Aw well. Maybe you’re right Mark.
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Mark52, are you the same Mark52 I was having a seemingly rational conversation with above? Well served by our pollies? Please! Or are you trolling….? You and alistair are the only tow people I know who have any respect for pollies at all.
My opinion is that NZ politics attracts very poor quality people who would have great dificulty making it in the real world. And the really intelligent people (not me) that I work with and meet every day avoid pilitics like the proverbial plague. So we are left to be governed by narrow minded people who for some unkonwn reason are firmly convinced they were born to rule. Consequently a new gentry is created, every bit as destructive and disaterous as the old blood line gentry.
What is the answer? How can pollies get repect back? perhaps if we halved the number and trebled their salaries we could attract the right people?
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Not against c#nsorship per se – just that once one comment is Published and another not, it can style one as having an agenda – which does not exist here.
Certainly I’ve made some-off-the-cuff comment that – with the wisdom of hindsight – I would censor myself – simply so I could put a better, constructive view.
Why Participate at all?
Because soon we may lose the right?
Also, one of those Survey people phoned and asked who I would vote for Right Now……
I didn’t have a clue.
Embarrassing right? So I’m making an effort to learn about the Parties and Policies…..
Sometimes I might play the Devils advocate to get a sounding – but, as I say, when one thing is Published, and another not – you can be made to look bad sad mad or a cad.
I guess.
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it hurts my rheumy hands to type – will i get the chance to edit and publish?
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Sorry Mark52 I was interested in your reply. I usually type mine in word or notepad and then copy and paste in case something like that happens.
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The Green Party has called for the building of homes on back gardens to stop.
In the wake of growing concerns about the ‘garden grabbing’ phenomenon of new homes being built on back gardens, the Green Party has spoken out against the practice.
The Green Party’s Darren Johnson, who chairs the London Assembly’s environment committee, said that more councils need to reject applications to construct in back gardens, hereby removing the temptation for people to sell their garden space.
He added that the problem is particularly serious in London.
Mr Johnson said: “I was shocked by the figures which show that permission is being given to build over a thousand new homes a year in London’s back gardens,” reports thisismoney.co.uk.
He added: “We all know that there is a vital need for new housing in London, but garden-grabbing developments are not the way to deliver them.”
http://uktv.co.uk/gardens/news/aid/594684
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I know jh! It’s so awful that people are allowed to do whatever they like to the property that they own. We must put a stop to it!
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Are envrionmental groups pro-environment or just good old anti-business? Or is it just fatcats in the quango/charitible trust axis trying to tell “fatcats” in business what they can and can’t do? Ever heard of sitting round the table and coming to a solution? Oh sorry …. forgot… solving problems – too radical a concept for our pollies
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO0710/S00313.htm
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The Chinese man who bought the historic workers cottage in Chch was put out when he cut a slice down the side to access his office block behind and was ordered to repair it.
There is a strong argument in favour of property rights for the good of the economy, but it doesn’t necessarily follow that every greedy entrepreneur using other peoples money and a conveyor belt that starts with big business greasing political parties, to maintain a constant stream of buyers, should be pandered to.
“Pegasus Town is Coming”…………….. Why???
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Somebody explain NZ’s comparative advantage….?
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Stuey: I’m referring to farmers in the backblocks…places like the Uruweras, and lots of areas in Northland west of Moerewa and Hikurangi as an example. Pipiwai would be a perfect example. Further south, Lottin Point and Wairoa would be similar. Places that aren’t safe for outsiders to live in peace unless they cowtow to the local strongarms. The law doesn’t really apply in such areas.
Such places are fertile refuges for ‘activists’ who perpetually feed the receptive minds of their young people with the ‘reality’ that the white folk have stolen something from them. (Of course it was people long-dead who did the stealing…in most cases anyway).
Once you give the young people the idea that it is right and noble to ‘steal from whitey’ then of course that is what they believe, and that is what they do. If you teach them that ‘the government oppresses us, we must fight against the government’ and combine that idea with an acceptance of violent means, then the result is only a matter of time. It is the hidden hand of activism, and the first stage of terrorism.
The result is that those very same young people waste their lives taking out their hatred against innocent folk, particularly against farmers and remote communities, because they are such an easy target being so far from the strong arm of the law. These sort of activists/terrorists seldom get seen within the bigger towns because they become too visible, and because the law would take its course with them in short order. Out in the country such people just get tolerated as being eccentric, and/or hopeless career criminals. The locals (particularly farmers) have to rely on themselves for protection (because the police are ordinarily too far away to be of use), or face on-going criminal interest from such no-hopers.
However, in the fullness of time such no-hopers attach themselves to similarly minded individuals and are more than capable of terrorising small communities.
People often move away from such communities if they can, rather than hang around and continue to be a target.
If you haven’t lived in such communities you obviously won’t recognise the parallels with what has gone down in the Uruweras recently.
It is not until the police show an interest and become involved in numbers that the depth of social terrorism in these places becomes more widely known. The local victims only dare speak out when they have the feeling that the law has come to town with some stronger capacity to change things for the better.
Those who foment such activism/social terrorism (eg people such as Tame Iti, Willie Jackson, and the Harawiras etc) seldom go far enough to be labelled terrorists, but they certainly screw up young minds to the point that potentially productive futures get locked into an antisocial self-destructive paranoia. Empty minds fuelled by paranoia, wakky bakky, racial hatred, and particularly hatred of any kind of authority naturally look to make trouble on the biggest scale their tiny minds can conceive.
I can only surmise that the recent police action has been precipitated by evidence that some band of such activists/terrorists had planned to take their action beyond the borders of their local communities. Maybe to Auckland? Maybe to Wellington?
No one should expect that such idiots could have overturned a government, but honestly, that is what they believe they are achieving.
People get hurt in the process.
Remember Ernie Abbott in the Trade Halls bombing? Yes such things can occur in NZ!
Strangely, such terrorism has been missing in NZ for at least 20 years (as Meurant was saying just today). If you ask me it was the heavy hand of the Police in 1981 which made NZ a better place for a while, but the undercurrent of antisocial activism/terrorism is now back with a vengeance.
There is now such a widespread (but unjustified) social attitude of disrespect for the law and Police that the ground is fertile for disenfranchised malcontents to destroy others lives instead of getting on with their own.
I am glad the Police have made a start, and I hope they move on up to Northland, and then carry on by mopping up the organised criminal gangs (most of whom are too smart to get involved in real terrorism because they know it will bring them undue attention)
Without a strong and active Police force we will all lose the benefits of a free society. No-one wants a Police state, but the only way to avoid that is to nip social terrorism in the bud.
Years ago our grandparents were considered heroes for shooting at Germans. Nowadays we seem to want our Police to wear slippers and speak gently to nasty people.
I’m pleased we still have a Police force capable of confronting the modern enemy…an enemy which just happens to be within our society rather than external to our borders.
Obviously our Police feel they have identified such a group and it will be interesting to evaluate the evidence.
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jh : your extensive quote about housing in London was truncated. Here’s the last bit :
”
“We must protect back gardens by re-designating them as greenfield – or even green belt or metropolitan open land. Londoners know that in a city like theirs, gardens provide vital green oases,” he concluded.
The news comes as Bromley recently reported that 21 per cent of new developments in the area are built on land previously used as garden.”
So what is your point? Do you support the absolute right for any home owner or property developer to concrete over every square centimetre of their land and build blocks of flats? Do you think it would be a good thing if every trace of vegetation was wiped out in Greater London? Or do you concede that there might be a role for town planning?
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Kevin : with respect to Greenpeace, Environmental Defence Society, Ecologic Foundation, WWF New Zealand and ECO : what they are doing is called “lobbying”. Guess what : big business and big farming do it too. In the present case, the biz lobbyists are trying to sabotage government policy, and the ecological lobby is asking the government to stand firm on the principles, while negotiating the details. Will it cost money? Yes. Is that a good enough reason to do nothing? No. Quoting from their letter to the government :
http://img.scoop.co.nz/media/pdfs/0710/ETS_design_FINAL_letter_to_Government_.pdf
Recently some business interests have suggested that the development of the ETS has been rushed and that it is ambitious in scope. In our view, the scheme as proposed by the Government is a conservative and gradual scheme and has been well-signalled.
Setting the basic framework in place early leaves plenty of time for detailed discussion with stakeholders but avoids endless delays in implementing the scheme itself. There will of course also be significant opportunities for submissions to the appropriate select committee on each stage of the legislation to implement the ETS.
New Zealand needs a business sector that will embrace the opportunities and responsibilities that come with the proposed emissions trading scheme. Fortunately there are a number of innovative businesses that are doing just that.
Some business interests, however, have a history of seeking to delay action on climate change. Emissions-trading has been discussed in New Zealand for over 15 years.
These interests have had ample opportunity to engage constructively but have instead chosen to argue for delay and deferral for more than a decade, while the climate problem has worsened.
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15 years in which the government has given business no incentive to change. 15 years in which business has seen that government has a new and very big stick to hit them with. 15 years of good economic growth in which the government could have been encouraging change by using its massive surpluses to move our economy forward in a clean green fashion with “no buisness left behind and no person out of pocket” policies. 15 years in which the successive governments have snoozed and wasted our money, while every social indicator continues to get worse.
A few people producing eco-engines does not make an economy I’m afraid. So we are starting now, 15 years later than we should. There’s still time wrt climate change, I’m not so sure wrt our place on the OECD ladder.
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I agree with your displeasure at all the time wasted… it’s not the fault of the Greens nor of the environmental organisations… to get back to your original question, “Are envrionmental groups pro-environment or just good old anti-business?”, I guess we’ve established that they are just good old pro-environment.
With respect to climate change and the “OECD ladder”, I suspect it’s the other way round… it’s probably too late to forestall major climate change, but we’ll probably see those on top of the “ladder” come crashing down, whereas NZ has a much better shot than most of building a sustainable economy.
i.e. I wouldn’t be surprised if, in 20 or 30 years, NZ was one of the richest of nations… but not necessarily because it’s actually got any richer.
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Greengeek – my father miraculously survived the Trades Hall bombing. It was well determined at the time that the Trades Hall bomber was acting alone and that his beef was not against the govt, rather the Unions whose headquarters were in the Trades Hall.
Re young minds – while watching the Kapa Haka schoolchildren’s competition on Maori TV the other night didn’t see any side of screwed up young minds – just a brilliant effort from the large group of children from Ruatoki. Hope they win. They deserve to.
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i found/have a book of old minnhinnick cartoons..from 1974..
the front-page headline/title..?
‘recycle more in 1974′..
kinda sad/depressing how little we’ve travelled since then..eh..?
(and not only that..but how far we’ve ‘gone backwards’..eh..?)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Alistair you might be right there – I had thought along similar lines but you put it well – most other OECD nations are sipping at the same teabreak we are taking. But it is a frightening thought that the NZ egalitarianism (make everyone look better and richer by making the top worse and poorer) is soon going to apply to the whole developed world.
In an ideal world we would admit that affluence is the cause of most of our problems and we would be content with having simpler lives. Since that is not going to happen we have to look for another solution.
If we want to compete and get richer, and thereby have wealth to help others, we have to realise that our competitors will be undemocratic or pseudodomocratic countries who dont give a toss about over-regulation or hiding unemployment in regulatory bureaucracy.
Phil, I’ve got a minhinnick book from the 40s complaining about bureacracy, endless committee meetings and resloutions, and government inaction on everything.
It what our country was built on and defines us as NZers!
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Phil, Kevin, Alistair – both my letters have been published – one in this thread and one in the Bio-diversity thread – please scan for me and tell me what’;s objectionable there – personally I think publishing one thing and not another can frame people unfairly – I am emotionally exhausted by all of this and simply want to leave NZ. It was SO unfair….
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hey, anyone want to see my impression of phil?
arrrgghh/mmmfffhh!/brrrghhh!/gibbbergibbber/drooooollll/ublugblugb;lugblugh/mmeeerrrrhhhhhh
waddya recon?
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Not scared Phil….but there IS a tendency to shift the burden to ‘proof of innocence’.
Whatever these people up north are into – they have already been found guilty by Media. Can they now get a fair trial….. ?
Partial c*nsorship allows Framing eh?!?
thanx mark
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tom..close..but no prize..
..you left out the exclaimation marks..
and the ‘gurning’..
(‘stand well back..!..this man is gurning..!’..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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# alistair Says:
October 22nd, 2007 at 10:03 pm
So what is your point? Do you support the absolute right for any home owner or property developer to concrete over every square centimetre of their land and build blocks of flats? Do you think it would be a good thing if every trace of vegetation was wiped out in Greater London? Or do you concede that there might be a role for town planning?
………………..
The latter. I was bemused to see the Greens in the UK bringing it up… Green’s in Aotearoa are not strong on urban design.
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I see the Police have released a press statement denying that they “terrorized a group of school kids”, it appears that they let a bus load of school kids through the road block without inspecting the bus, while the kindergarten bus that everybody is making a lot of noise about did not have one single kindergarten pupil on board.
I await an apology from John Harawhera and Pita Sharples.
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Steep decline in oil production brings risk of war and unrest, says new study
· Output peaked in 2006 and will fall 7% a year
· Decline in gas, coal and uranium also predicted
World oil production has already peaked and will fall by half as soon as 2030, according to a report which also warns that extreme shortages of fossil fuels will lead to wars and social breakdown.
The German-based Energy Watch Group will release its study in London today saying that global oil production peaked in 2006 – much earlier than most experts had expected. The report, which predicts that production will now fall by 7% a year, comes after oil prices set new records almost every day last week, on Friday hitting more than $90 (£44) a barrel.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/oil/story/0,,2196435,00.html
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Scientists sometimes refer to the effect a hotter world will have on this country’s fresh water as the other water problem, because global warming more commonly evokes the specter of rising oceans submerging our great coastal cities. By comparison, the steady decrease in mountain snowpack — the loss of the deep accumulation of high-altitude winter snow that melts each spring to provide the American West with most of its water — seems to be a more modest worry. But not all researchers agree with this ranking of dangers. Last May, for instance, Steven Chu, a Nobel laureate and the director of the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, one of the United States government’s pre-eminent research facilities, remarked that diminished supplies of fresh water might prove a far more serious problem than slowly rising seas. When I met with Chu last summer in Berkeley, the snowpack in the Sierra Nevada, which provides most of the water for Northern California, was at its lowest level in 20 years. Chu noted that even the most optimistic climate models for the second half of this century suggest that 30 to 70 percent of the snowpack will disappear. “There’s a two-thirds chance there will be a disaster,? Chu said, “and that’s in the best scenario.?
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/21/magazine/21water-t.html?_r=2&ref=science&oref=slogin&oref=slogin
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Mark :
The problem is, this site is periodically subject to attack, receiving aggressive or unpleasant posts that turn people off, and thus make it lose its value as a place for reasoned debate. Sometimes these come from ill-intentioned people, who are hostile to the Greens and environmentalism in general, and wish to spoil it for the rest of us. Other times, it comes from people who just can’t help themselves, often fuelled by a heavy dose of paranoia.
So, the administrator sets up filters which will put certain posts on hold, until they have time to check them out and decide whether to let them through, delete them, or occasionally, edit out unacceptable content. This sort of thing is universal on internet discussion sites. In an ideal world, it would not be necessary, but hey, the Greens are pragmatists.
One of the rules of internet moderation is that “the rules” should never be explained in detail, because it just encourages people to try to game them. But in the case of your post above, I guess it was put on hold because of the word “c*nsor”. I guess the administrator wants to discourage discussion of this subject because it’s a turn-off, but it’s true that this can have perverse effects.
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jh : “I was bemused to see the Greens in the UK bringing it up… Green’s in Aotearoa are not strong on urban design.” Wrong… you haven’t been paying attention have you? NZ is not strong on urban design… not surprisingly, the Greens are at the forefront. Not that that’s hard.
Here, let me help you…
The key points of the Greens’ housing policy :
http://www.greens.org.nz/searchdocs/policy4753.html
* Housing is a basic human right. Everyone should have access to decent, affordable, secure and appropriate housing.
* People must be able to have input into decisions on the location and design of housing.
* Housing should be designed and built to sustainable building principles, including energy saving and resource conservation.
* Housing developments should be designed to optimise land use and reduce car use.
* Iwi and hapu rights to develop culturally appropriate housing must be supported.
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jh : NZ is far less exposed than most places on earth to the emerging global water crisis. Good luck rather than good management. The climate changes so far seem to be bringing more water rather than less, for one thing…
On the other hand, NZ is very, very exposed to the emerging oil crunch. An energy-rich nation that has managed to make itself dependent on increasingly expensive and scarce imported oil… and pretty soon the $NZ will stop being over-valued, which will make it worse… and is doing very little to overcome that dependency… NZ will be running hard to stand still, increasing exports to pay for its oil fix.
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Alistair, Politically/ideologically the first two points of the Green’s housing policy are highly debatable, particularly since decent, affordable, secure and appropriate are subjective terms.
Ditto for the second point but the RMA, district plans and customer preferences actual provide mechanism to make it happen, albeit not to everyones satifaction.
The third point is a real weakness in the free market because the builder and occupier are rarely the same person. Unless energy usage is a major concern for new home buyers such that it adds a premium to the price builders can charge for energy efficient buildings there will be no financial incentive for builders to build energy efficient buildings. A genuine case where the invisible left hand doesn’t know (or care) what the invisible right hand is doing.
Implementation of the fourth point absolutely must be based on
i) what has been proven to work and not on wishful thinking
ii) must recognise that cities and districts will need completely different strategies to optimise land use and reduce car use.
iii) as a first step needs to reverse the priorities of most current city plans regarding zoning to make high density the norm with low density only permitted in areas of special significance.
I would hope the fifth point will be applied to all non-mainstream cultures. IMHO there is no difference between the purpose/justification of a marae or a retirement village. They both provide housing appropriate to their residents, provide they meet reasonable sanitary and noise requirements for an urban environment they should be treated the same way by city plans and RMA etc.
“The climate changes so far seem to be bringing more water rather than less, for one thing…” Unfortunately that is only true for the North Island. The effect so far is akin to the el nino/la nina effects. When it rains more in the North Island it rains less in the South Island, and vice versa. Reduced recharge rates during the last couple of decades are a major factor in the Canterbury aquifier depletion concerns.
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Alastair – great wicketkeeping, and thank you. Nearly November and I’m freezin’.
I feel the Greens can afford to let these people go more. I’ve yet to see a bully survive let alone succeed. The truth has a way of defeating them.
I just feel to have comments effectively ‘cut and pasted’ by censorship is a dangerous way to go. Certainly left me feeling quite ill, and maybe I’ve discovered all i need to know about local Politics. Maybe it’s not Apathy out there at all. Maybe it’s a well founded refusal to be used.
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Ps. Sorry about the spelling – shan’t get it wrong again – but why is that a turn-off? And in a socio-political forum, is that sufficient reason to ban it?
My vote will go to the people who can take those tough hurdles well – not avoid them – in that sense, maybe we have the best people we’ve got, already there…?
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Your probably freezing because you have no blood like a vampire, which is why your brain is so slow and you make all those spelling mistakes, personally i don’t make mistakes because firefox has a built in spell checker.
As for Global warming we are VERY exposed, because of the fact that we advertise it being so green and nice here, we are going to be flooded with people trying to escape from the terrible climate they have created in the north.
As for fuel its LAZY of this government not to be doing something about the cars that are running on the road, not in 20 years or whenever labor has decided to change the rules for imports, but NOW!
As for the original topic the police raids, I’m not surprised they think of most people as villains what with the silly laws we have in this country most people are. I’m waiting till I see what guns they produce, should be soon, I’ve seen a few pictures of the ones they have found and they look like military style machine guns.
As you can see firefox doesn’t correct grammar
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Mark, I’m inclined to agree. However nothing got banned or binned as far as I can see, some of your posts just got delayed a few hours until the moderator could check them out. Annoying, but not a matter of free speech.
We are certainly robust enough to handle opinionated and argumentative contradictors, and they always get free speech here. However deliberate wreckers (there are none around here presently) are another matter, sometimes you need a doorman, just like at the pub.
As for getting “the best people we’ve got” in Parliament : I think it would be a better place with another dozen Green MPs… check out party lists from the last election, and make up your own mind.
P.S. If you can find a better site to discuss the important political issues in NZ, let me know. I think we’re there now.
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“First they came for the Maori, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Maori. Then they came for the Anarchists, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t an Anarchist. Then they came for the Ecologists, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t an Ecologist. Then they came for me, but by then there was no one left to speak up for me.”
Police terror raids – NZ’s day of shame. The whole world is watching.
http://www.indymedia.org.nz/
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Thanx Alisatair: Yea – I’m aware it’s just Gestalt for some people, and at the end of the day, my computer is just a thing in the corner – I wouldn’t take it too seriously – finally we’ve got some cracker weather and I’ll be enjoying life in my little community………
Just conversational threads get lost……..which – well, sometimes you’re on new ground, and it’s fascinating to explore possibilities – some of these people know ingenious stuff.
Like BUZZ – your Dad survived that Bang!!!!!!!!
Mine Too!
We should talk
Out here?
What do you think Alistair.
Keep the thread alive?
And Ernie didn’t deserve that
I got the news in a Birthday call – one of those ‘moments you don’t forget’
Back to my life mate – no lasting grievance – if no one else has
cheers mark
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“First they came for the Maori, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Maori. Then they came for the Anarchists….”
Muppets, indeed. Although the Muppets are more intelligent, and just as funny.
First they came for people who they suspected of owning guns and bombs that they shouldn’t have had.
Perhaps not owning guns and bombs would be a good way to go….
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chris trotter is talking absolute drivel..again/still..
this time about how ‘deep-green vegans’..(like ahem!..myself)..
are ‘just so close’ to snapping..and forgoing their pacifist ‘no-suffering’ ways..
and becoming bloodthirsty anarchist-’tewwowwists’..(!)
(who knew..?..eh..?…)
(someone roll that man a joint..!..
give him some st johns wort..!..
something..!)
http://whoar.co.nz/2007/chris-trotter-does-his-dutycontinues-in-his-gate-keeper-rolesubtly-presenting-the-gummints-side-of-the-caseand-at-the-same-time-talking-absolute-drivel/
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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“Couldn’t happen here? Let’s pray that it hasn’t and doesn’t. But let’s also consider these lines, penned by an anonymous poet “from the North” about “things to come” and posted on the Aotearoa Indymedia website:
“We’re only human in these front lines And only lucky soldiers can choose their sides.
So, brothers, please forgive me, Because every last round is for you.
So I’m praying that some Holy Angel has your back.
Just do what you must, we all bleed the same.
So, if your eyes meet mine, across this bloodstained street,
Brother, know this:Yeah, I love you, but I’m not gunna miss.”"
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so, PEL, are you saying that everyone that the police raided and/or arrested had guns or bombs that they shouldn’t have had?
But that is clearly not the case because no weapons have been produced from any of the Wellington or Auckland or Taupo raids have they?
So, yes, first they came for the people who had weapons, but then they came for the innocent activists who appear to be guilty of nothing more than (a) networking with some of the accused at some point in the past and (b) having dreadlocks.
In a country where there is one degree of separation not six, it is hardly surprising that people have had contacts with the accused who did have weapons.
The problem is that the police obviously look upon activists as dangerous subversives so that any kind of networking with the suspected tips the balance and causes the police to raid them as well.
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“I see the Police have released a press statement denying that they “terrorized a group of school kids?, ”
Right, and of course we never heard of a cop lying have we?
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does this mean the police are lying
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John Cambell to assistant police commissioner…. “what people want to know is that people like —- can go about their business without interference…”…. We’ll no, that’s just the left and civil libertarians. Others want to know that where there is evidence of a credible threat the police can get on with the job without Tony Ellis, Kieth Locke and Co (Peace Justice Aotearoa) Arena, Enema etc, hanging off their arm….
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If nobody had criticized the police raids on apparently harmless anarchists and environmentalists, then we would be well on the way to a police state. If there were no scrutiny, if everyone assumed the police knew what they were doing, then the cops would be quite likely to cook up some charges to lock those people up, to spare themselves the embarrassment of having to release them. And the next time, they might go after the suspected terrorists of Friends of the Earth or Royal Forest and Bird. That sort of stuff feeds itself.
Is that what you want, jh? The sceptics should just shut up and trust the cops, who have a proven track record with respect to terrorism and civil liberties?
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>>so, PEL, are you saying that everyone that the police raided and/or arrested had guns or bombs that they shouldn’t have had?
I re-read what I wrote and can confirm that no, I did not say what you suggest I said. Hope that clears things up.
I’m still waiting for the police to present their case. They have released some detail i.e. that some suspects are being held on firearms charges, and further charges may be laid. Associates may certainly need to be detained. Again, I will await to see the reason why.
The “First they come for Maori…” thing is a tad melodramatic, don’t you think? Drama queens.
I think you’ll find the world is watching fires in California….
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Well Petie, I’m sure the plods in 1930s Germany were convinced that they were arresting dangerous people too. And as they didn’t meet much resistance from civil society or the media (except from the communists, but they didn’t count, they were next on the list anyway…) they had no moral qualms about executing the next set of orders.
I’m convinced that the advocacy on both sides of the debate is absolutely vital for maintaining (hopefully improving) the health of NZ society. And I’m waiting for the case to be presented too.
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Right. NZ in 2007 is *just* like Nazi Germany.
Does anyone seriously believe we’re on the verge of a fascist state? More for the benefit of the cameras, methinks: “Help help – we’re being opressed!”
I walked past preparations for a truck driver protest in Belgium. One street along, the police were also preparing for the evenings events. They had armored trucks lined up. The trucks had massive water-cannons on top, and the police were heavily armed.
It didn’t rate as a big deal…..business as usual.
NZ Police are rather mild mannered and reasonable. In Europe, they do not muck around.
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Didn’t say NZ was on the verge of a fascist state in 2007 Petie… felt more like it in 1981. But do you understand the concept of a slippery slope? How liberties erode if nobody opposes their erosion? Can you imagine what might have happened in the 80s, if Muldoon hadn’t lost his mojo? Freedoms only wear out if they are not exercised. And the police had bloody well better mind their manners.
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So had crims.
Our liberties have been eroded massively over the last 50 years, and over the last seven years with over regulation.
As an example lets take crime – when my 12 year old daughter can walk around anywhere, anytime in NZ (including the bush) without being touched, molested or abused then I will know we’ve got our civil liberties back.
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Kevin : So you’re claiming that it was over-regulation that produced a higher proportion of dangerous sexual predators? An original thesis : How does it work?
I thought it was the breakdown of social cohesion and community spirit that brought about that change, universal throughout the developed world. Silly me, it was Helen.
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Hi Mark52 – no Ernie did not deserve that.
Lead headline on Herald website today:
“Maori girls suffer ‘horrific’ rate of abuse”
I sense another bout of Maori bashing coming on.
Why do the words “Howard” and “aborigines” pop into my mind?
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No alistair, it is complex. all I am saying is that there are civil liberties other than the ones we debate about in student cafes. Like being able to walk down the road safely, or criticise certain policies without being called racist, eh buzz.
The breakdown in social cohesion was planned to a certain extent it didnt just happen from “popular uprising” or “democracy”. The motives and outcomes are now highly questionable and the “policy analysts” certainly didn’t get it right. Take for example the disasterous consequences of erring on the side of always giving the biological mother custody.
Buzz, not again, how many times do I have to say it. These figures are homespun to keep the political (in this case iwi) elite in power. Self identification doesnt make ethnicity in an objective sense.
If % ethnicity was used you might find it is 30% a Maori problem and 70% an other races problem. Being the father and spouse of Tangata Whenua I am heartily sick to death of Maori bashing themselves for their own selfish political purposes. I want my kids who work hard, dont commit crimes and would never bash a spouse or child to be proud of their ancestry – I plead with them but it is very difficult in this climate.
So I can see a scenario which I’m sure happens is that pople self identify as “European” or “NZer” when they are not breaking the law and “Maori” when they do break the law, further inflating the already woefully useless statistics.
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(sigh..!)..kevin said..
“..As an example lets take crime – when my 12 year old daughter can walk around anywhere, anytime in NZ (including the bush) without being touched, molested or abused then I will know we’ve got our civil liberties back..”
kevin..the stats just released show that 1% of assaults on children are by strangers..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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No, ali-pali, I’m suggesting you, and the activist community, are making a mountain out of a molehill because it dovetails nicely with their agenda.
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Thanks Buzz – and what? That’s where it enz? You don’ wanna know who and why? Ok by me…..big difference between Howards policies and anything I see here.
Anyhow – this debate just underlines what R. Meurant says; that NZ is divided into ‘them and us’ by the Police. That’s why I lost all that – didn’t have a recent haircut.
Only in NZ Friends.
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Kevin: yes, you are right. We lose more of our social freedoms because of the actions of the crims, than we do by the actions of the Police. It is pretty self-evident, but never seems to amaze me how hard it is for some people to recognise it.
Sounds like you bring your kids up well. I wouldn’t mind betting kids like yours could be trusted to drive responsibly at age 15 (as mine can), in contrast to many others who still can’t drive responsibly at 28.
Unfortunately the driving age will be going up, purely as a result of the actions of the stupid ones who drive badly. So decent, trustworthy, well-brought-up kids suffer as a result of the actions of the stupid ones.
Personally I would prefer it if we had twice as many Police, and they stopped twice as many irresponsible drivers, and we left the license age at 15 so that the trustworthy ones could get on with life.
We have too many regulations penalising good people because governments believe that regulations will stop the actions of the bad ones. (Doesn’t really work!)
In reality Police States have their roots in over-permissive societies. Ours is becoming over-permissive, but only because our Police are a little too weak, under-supported, undermanned and underfunded.
If we keep asking the Police to back off, the nett result in the end is that the populace will back a “Feuhrer” style political personality in order to come down hard, and get things shipshape. Happened in Germany. Happened in New York.
We don’t have to go that far. We could just let the Police get on with their job. (Accepting of course that there will always be some rogue element within the force…scrutiny is always good and necessary)
Meurant’s comments need to be taken against the backdrop that he always was (and always will be) an incredibly egocentric man.
Whichever side of the fence he is on is the “right one”. He has moved on in his life to the point where he now makes his living from Joe public, rather than from the boys in blue. He’s financially comfortable, and has no stake in how balanced New Zealand life is. His future is not here. His future is ‘global’. Just as is the case for so many other charlatans that have left NZ bruised (Michael Fay and David Richwhite to name but a couple).
I believe that a well-supported Police force is the key to a return to the best NZ life has to offer. Let them arrest terrorists at one end of the spectrum, rich evil bastards at the other end, all the other lawbreakers in the middle, and we will have a great society once again.
If people don’t support the rule of law they can always move to somewhere like Iraq.
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greengeek said: …We lose more of our social freedoms because of the actions of the crims, than we do by the actions of the Police.
Not my experience. Police have been worse to me than criminals.
W
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Actually I agree with Kevin that we need to deal with the idiots, drunks and real criminals on the road. We need to deal with child molestors, psychopaths and white collar criminals ripping off pensioners. I am fine with the police collecting revenue from speeding. I wish they could collect enough for me not to have to pay income tax.
But when the police are wasting valuable resources arresting peaceful protestors in Wellington houses who have done nothing more than protest legally, and when police regularly outnumber protestors on any animal rights protest, when they waste court time dreaming up fake charges that are thrown out of court, when they pepper spray protestors and then shrug and say “its not my f*ing money” when they are successfully sued, then something is wrong with their priorities.
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here’s a discussion on the legal difficulties re terrorism charges and it gives an appreciation of what Kieths attempted spanner in the wheel could do.
http://www.publicaddress.net/default,4574.sm
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greengeek, Kiore I agree, but we will have to wait and see if the police have over-reacted. I agree totally about the driving age. Its just yet another example of us all loosing because of a small minority and because the last thing politicians will ever do is font up to the real problem – lack of personal resposibility. Get the offenders trhough the court system quickly and cheaply and hit thme hard the first time with restorative justice – none of this diversion crap – and you would turn things around really quickly.
Kiore, in my exoerience the small number of animal rights protesters are psychologically disturbed and need help, so I would favour pshych/social serevices being integrated more with the police so genuinely disturbed non-criminals can get the help they need.
And greengeek I agree entirely – I have said on many occasions that social decay is a breeding ground for fascism.
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OK jh, my reading of this is that charging someone with membership of a terrorist group requires the existence of a group which has carried out a terrorist act. There is no such group currently in NZ, as far as I know, so in all logic, nobody should be charged with belonging to a terrorist group.
But that’s only according to a plain-English understanding of “committing a terrorist act”.
However, for the purposes of this Act, a terrorist act is carried out if any 1 or more of the following occurs:
(a) planning or other preparations to carry out the act, whether it is actually carried out or not:
(b) a credible threat to carry out the act, whether it is actually carried out or not:
(c) an attempt to carry out the act:
(d) the carrying out of the act.
All depends on the meaning of “credible” I guess. The police had better be credible, if they bring such charges…
In what way is Keith trying to put a spanner in the works? I agree with his words in parliament :
http://www.greens.org.nz/searchdocs/speech11334.html
“There is a better way. Don’t politicise the issue with anti-terrorism laws. If people have committed arms or other offences under our Crimes Act, then charge them on those offences.
[...]
I am most disappointed that the Government did not listen to the overwhelming majority of submitters who were opposed to the Bill, including expert submitters from Greenpeace, Amnesty International and the New Zealand Law Society – the latter group arguing that it was stupid to set up a parallel set of terrorist offences, which would only make it confusing for judges in our courts to decide whether to prosecute on terrorism charges or charges under the Crime Act. It will be very confusing, and, as I said earlier, prejudicial to may people to have this set of terrorism laws.
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This recent intimidation by the police appears to be part of a trend, along with the incarceration without charge of Ahmed Zaoie for several years, police illegally forcing protesters to move away from an area where they had a right to be so that a visiting Chinese official wouldn’t see them, etc.
This trend towards increasing government intimidation and illegal restrictions on ordinary people’s freedom is happening in many countries – Australia is worse than New Zealand, England worse still and the USA is probably the worst of all the ‘western democracies’.
So you can see where New Zealand could be heading, if we don’t act to stop it, by looking at these other countries.
Naomi Wolf, author of The Beauty Myth, published an excellent and very scary book *The End of America* detailing this trend and pointing out that the ultimate conclusion is a state where there is no freedom and everyone lives in fear of the government – Nazi Germany, Italy under Mussolini and Chile under Pinochet being classic examples.
There’s now a video of her giving a talk on the topic on Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjALf12PAWc
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This is all about the swinging pendulum, At one end nazi Germany, at the other anarchy, and our perception of where we are at.
We need to be objective. My problem with the Greens position is that they are out of kilter with the wider community who worry about not feeling safe (enough) at night etc. The sight of policemen in Japan marching out of the police station in the evening swinging batons has symbolic meaning, just as Tony Ellis suing the Corrections Department over the ((minor) mistreatment of some prisoners, has a symbolic meaning.
It’s fine to have a dissenting view, but under our MMP environment* we get the likes of Kieth Locke and Sue Bradford pigging out on their favourite issues.
* soundly rejected by Ontario voters who no doubt looked at Aotearoa’s experience.
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>>out of kilter with the wider community who worry about not feeling safe (enough) at night
Right. The powers the Police have in the UK are fully justified. The threat is both insidious and real. I don’t know how anyone could argue otherwise.
I get annoyed by hard-line activists wasting taxpayers time and money with their blocking protests (southern rail, wellington bypass). Those projects were arrived at democraticly. The majority supported them. Don’t like the decisions? Then convince people with reason. Or at least be clever, funny and inventive in your methods. Want to take more direct, disruptive action? Then expect the inevitable pushback that comes with that, and stop whining.
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Good point PeterExitsLeft
What you seem to be saying is that everyone has choice and should take it out and exercise it. I agree whole heartedly. But people choose to take their action in different ways – either enmasse like the Burmese monks or massed rallies during the fall of Communism or the protests the womens right to vote
OR by lobbying – lots of examples there,
OR by writing to whoever or thru books, newspapers, etc…
OR by voting for…. whoever
OR simply by upholding integrity, dignity and compassion by example
OR by humour, plays, films, TV or oration
It all goes to make the variety by which “we sincerely hope” that civilizations of the world evolve. And because we have never walked the walk or taken the time to really see thru the eyes of the person next right next to us – we will continually have societies and individuals exploring different means of expressing themselves.
What is important to remember is that we as human beings need to take responsibility and excercise it also. And do it for ourselves in each moment for – our emotions, thoughts, intentions, actions, comments in these blogs, etc…. “The Power of One” should then produce “the Power of Individuals within the Collective”. not “A Group Mentality” and there lies the real difference. Biodiversity!
Fisticuffs or childish inuendos in Parliament don’t seem to come from a place of integrity! Upstanding police officers not speaking up to oust rogue officers like Shipton, Schollum and Rickards when many knew what was going on way back – doesn’t seem like upholding the principles of integrity, honesty and truth either. The group mentality does seem to dominate most of our lives – but only if we allow it. If only we could take responsibility for our own lives!
Now thats worth pondering!
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Kevin
I find it deeply offensive that you label AR protestors as psychologically disturbed. I am one myself, I have a high IQ, no history of mental illness and I am holding down a responsible job. Most of my friends have similar profiles to myself. In fact, the evidence from the British Medical Journal shows a link between vegetarianism and high IQ. Not that being vegetarian raises IQ but that those with a high IQ are more likely to think deeply about societal attitudes and form their own opinions on matters of importance.
It is true that activists (not just AR activists) have a higher suicide rate than the general population. But this is probably more releated to the clear concept they have about injustice and the way they empathise with it. The ignorant are not as unhappy as those with a clear sense of what is wrong with the world. But seeing the world clearly is not a sign of mental illness, quite the opposite.
I think you actually need to get to know some activists, maybe talk to them and understand where they are coming from (even if you don’t agree with them), instead of just believing everything the mass media tells you.
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Random sample of arguments from this thread:
the sky is blue today … clearly this proves that the Green Party are a bunch of far left anarchists.
Keith Locke tied his shoe laces today, obviously this means that the Green Party have swung too far to the left and a new centre-right Green Party are needed.
Sue Bradford bought some milk yesterday – this clearly shows that there is a public perception that the Green Party are in favour of entirely disbanding the police force and knocking all prisons down
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Hey JH, that is a good link to Public Address you posted
http://www.publicaddress.net/default,4574.sm
but I must question why you say “gives an appreciation of what Kieths attempted spanner in the wheel could do”?
I can see absolutely nothing in that article that does anything of the sort. There is no reference to Keith, no reference to any criticism of the Terrorism Bills, no reference to how criticism of the Terrorism Bills could have a negative effect. Basically there is nothing in there to justify your opinion.
Could you explain how you reach that conclusion? Could you explain what Keith’s “spanner” actually is?
Maybe this is indicative of all your opinions about the Greens? Based on your own prejudices rather than the evidence? Do you see evidence for shortcomings of the Greens in everything you read? If you read the telephone directory would you find evidence of our far left anarchist agenda?
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What I was referring to was the difficulty of getting a conviction on terrorism charges and how while there is a fine line between the rights to a fair trial and being too fair to the individual. Kieth will be pushing the line towards the indivdual. The spanner in the works metaphor is when civil libertarians make the rules so tight guilty people get off. That’s my impression, anyway. People perceive as others as “touched” (having a certain way of thinking… hard wired) to degrees of severity, so that even soaking ones head in cold water doesn’t dampen the uranium reactor inside, and you can be sure that the Greens will be perceived as supporting the (alleged) terrorists. Not just on this issue, but accumulatively… tasers (“we’re not going to put up with that!”), not wanting prisoners shackled to the Read Prisoners a Bed-time Story Amendment Bill
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Thanks for the humour – the thoughfullness. Incidentally that was a lousy poem – did’nt even rhyme. Plus it’s not a nz piece at all – so if the proponent were using one of those recycled coca-cola can, look alike, ak’s, he would not only miss, but miss by a considerable margin – my recommendation would be to whip over there, pluck it from his grasp, and take the conversation to a safe place.
From the OOD: Officers are NOT to bring suspects in by tying them to the bonnet!
Car 52 come in for breathalyzing!
Ltw mark
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What I don’t understand is why we need a separate crime for being a terrorist. Surely driving an aeroplane through a building is already illegal, and why should it be more (or less) illegal or have a more (or less) severe penalty because it is done for political purposes. Does that mean that if I can prove in court that I committed mass murder for kicks, or for money or just to see what would happen, then I would get a lighter sentence than if I did it for political purposes.
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Big Brother is watching…and photographing…and fingerprinting
Keith Locke MP, Green Party Human Rights Spokesperson
http://www.greens.org.nz/searchdocs/PR7340.html
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kiore: good question. Why is flying a plane into a building worse if you are a terrorist, than if you are not a terrorist? I really can’t find a decent intellectual answer to that. It is just that in my gut it feels like a more dangerous and evil act if it has been planned over a long period of time, and with a group of other similarly minded individuals.
I guess the whole point of terrorist legislation is to allow greater powers of Police discovery so as to bring down a whole group before the event, rather than a single individual after the event. Sounds good if you trust the Police, bad if you don’t.
Your other comment about a higher suicide rate amongst activists highlights a sad fact about todays world…Anyone who cares deeply about mankind and it’s current direction is likely to be easily overwhelmed by the stupidity of the majority. That takes its emotional toll.
By contrast, those who basically don’t care don’t have to worry. As long as there is sufficient oxygen for them to draw breath, they are happy. It is an evolutionary survival strategy. It explains why the thickest most insensitive people have the highest birth rates. Again, an unconcious survival strategy.
It also explains why such people are so numerous.
Whether we like it or not, all that humans have had to do throughout past history is to survive ice ages and floods etc. Physical resilience was more important than other characteristics. Sensitivity, intelligence, and concern for the environment were not prerequisites.
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Greengeek:
Somewhere I read a figure that related to the percentage of the worlds population was REALLY REALLY AWAKE and AWARE – I seem to remember that it was only 8%. Not sure where the figure came from but that means that 92% is UNAWARE. When one glances around the world looking for enlightened beings maybe the figure is reasonably correct. There is a long way to go guys!
Kiore1:
Perhaps it is the existing laws and the justice system that needs sorting out first – not the otherway around. We seem to be stuck with outdated and outmoded legal baggage from the past. The legal and parliamentary system being a great part of it. What would we do differently if we started again?
Have a great weekend!
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i will vote for the national party in 2008..
(this contingent on their promise/pledge to repeal both the ‘tewwowwism’-bill..
and the/your poxy election reform bill..)
(so it’s long-odds..!..eh..?
but..y’get my point..?..)
http://whoar.co.nz/2007/the-term-terrorist-itself-is-as-old-as-the-french-revolution-and-was-for-quite-a-while-used-to-describe-violent-acts-done-by-states-to-suppress-their-own-populationslike-beautythoughterror-is-in-the-e/
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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To tell you the truth I haven’t thought much about the terrorism bill, I tend to trust the politicians on this one and distrust the left wing -paraniod civil libertarians.
Last night a young language student was being dropped of by another outside a friends house. A group of “Kiwi boys” surrounded the car booting it and one of them yelled at them to get out…. Oh yeh, probably all a big joke… walking home from the pub (lives in a student area). Now she is afraid to walk from the bus [as in public Transport]…”what happens if I meet them…?” Big Brother wasn’t watching and she doesn’t think Christchurch is a safe place. She didn’t know to ring 111
People like [LWPCL's] just fill me with contempt!!!
Law and order .. one of the Greens Achilles heals
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yeah, I know, when capitalism is destroyed, the “lion will lie down with the lamb”
Book of Keith and Sue Verse3 section 2
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jh
What was done by the “kiwi boys” described in your last post is already illegal under current legislation. Obviously the boys in question did not care. I fail to see how special anti-terrorist legislation would help the situation. Are the “kiwi boys” going to suddenly think “gosh this is even more illegal now, we’d better not do it”. Besides, anti-terrorist legislation does not cover yahoos intimidating people for kicks, but only if they have a political purpose.
And I remember one time I rang 111 I got an answer phone. The voice said
“this is the police. If you are being strangled, press 1; if you are being raped press 2…”
Okay the last bit was a joke, but getting an answer phone message when I saw what looked like someone being beaten up wasn’t (in fact it was someone having an epilectic fit and being restrained, but I didn’t know that at the time). If the police were not wasting resources arresting peaceful demonstrators, swarming outside protests, playing Rambo in the Urerewas, thinking of lies to tell in court, and intimidating impressionable teenagers to have group sex with them, then they may have more time to staff the 111 centres and patrol the streets so that that the sort of events you are describing would be less likely to happen.
http://www.epf.org.nz
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What i had in mind was Keith “big brother is Watching you…”
[http://www.greens.org.nz/searchdocs/PR7340.html]
….news release. Ie Big Brother is needed at times but Big brother is rolled back and the creative young wolf pack rolls forward to fill the vacuum. You’ll never get perfect police or anybody, but that doesn’t mean they should be always on the “naughty mat”
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The central issue is the determinant of being of a terrorist group (as we have defined none as being such here). And secondly the association of those who commit weapons offences with terrorism and this terrorism with membership of an activist cause – Green, peace, or Maori iwi self government (here Tuhoe is a lightning rod to those of the Maori sovereignty cause, as is the F and S ownership issue).
Tuhoe is a an iwi not signing the Treaty and somewhat isolated in locale from “society” … When the Tribunal process ends – what will be the status of those iwi who had land stolen from them but who were not part of it? Especially Tuhoe – because they did not sign the Treaty.
This will highlight the issue of New Zealand sovereignty over the Tuhoe land coming from either conquest or from their marginalisation from the majority decision of Maori to sign. Is developing an ability to resist “occupation/further oppression? a resort to planning for terrorism? In the USA groups pride themselves on their right to bear arms and their consequent ability to protect their constitutional liberties … Thus in American terms citing people as terrorists simply for bearing arms, while being of an activist cause, would not cut it. Not unless the group had committed terrorist acts or planned such.
Here we come into the realm of Waco Texas. An end time group imagining persecution and arming themselves to protect themselves from this persecution. If one then comes into disarm them, a shooting match begins – as they protect themselves.
From what we are led to believe there was some arms training and some purported political targets. From the latter is apparently the basis for terrorist charges (presuming actual violence was involved). The question, should this be so, is whether planned (cause related) use of violence is itself terrorism (the 81 tour protests never strayed into targeting anyone for violence or even relied on the direct use of “active” violence).
At what level of activism is there an attempt to intimidate politicans and the public into appeasment. Implied threat, planning an ability to deliver on a threat, planning an operation for this purpose … Does it have to involve violence causing death ….
In Lebanon anti-Syrian politicians are being routinely assassinated to undermine it’s majority, ….
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Or . . . could it just be an out of control police anti Terrorist unit drunk on their own power, with unlimited amounts of taxpayer funds to play with, and nothing to do.
Note the Rainbow bombing terrorists were apprehended by ordinary police using ordinary legislation.
And while all these police were running around the country arresting picture framers and film makers over the last few weeks, a gang of thugs has been terrorising Wgtn. Perhaps if the police hadn’t been so busy they might’ve stopped them.
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SPC said Tuhoe is a an iwi not signing the Treaty…
I think that is the key point, SPC. So I’m still puzzled as to what constitutional mechanism now subjugates them to the New Zealand law, rather than to their own.
Anyone got an answer? As far as I’m concerned, they were a sovereign nation, and while their land base may have been subsequently reduced by conquest, their sovereignty wasn’t, so they are still a sovereign nation.
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Some see the iwi signing the Treaty has still having a self governance claim within a sovereign New Zealand (though loss of land and dispersal of their population renders most incapable of any actual formal capability as an iwi). Some of the Tuhoe might suggest there has been an “occupation” of their sovereign nation by New Zealand – yet where the occupier claims to have sovereignty (by the majority of iwi signing the Treaty and or by conquest of any dissenting iwi), this is a de facto annexation. The UN banned annexation of conquered territory (after c1949). The annexation here appears to have occured much earlier.
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Toad, presumably if Tuhoe are a soveraign nation then they should not have been paying taxes and rates and they should not have been receiving any services from the state or local authorities.
For instance Tuhoe is the northern boundary of the Gisborne highway district which has received $4 for every $1 paid in motor taxation. According to Te Ara, Tuhoe signed an agreement with the Crown (under duress) which included a prohibition on roads or surveys on Tuhoe lands. State Highways 2 & 38 cross Tuhoe lands, but only those parts that, according to Te Ara, came under Tuhoe dominion as the consequence of marriage or conquest in the early 19th century.
This question of who has sovereignty over which tracts of lands by right of conquest or other means is a real can of worms that the Crown seems hell-bent on avoiding. And Tuhoe would be well advised to think long and hard about ALL of the ramifications of seceeding and forming their own fully autonomous nation. They wouldn’t need a driver’s license or RUCs on Tuhoe roads but they would still need them when the cross the border into New Zealand. A saving for a few Tuhoe but not for most. Then of course New Zealand could, at some point, treat Tuhoe with the same contempt shown to New Zealand by Britian in 1967!
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All very valid points, Kevyn, but they don’t address the constitutional issue.
SPC – Tuhoe were never conquered. They were invaded, and their most fertile land confiscated, but they were not conquered.
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How could anyone define it as “not conquest”, when under “occupation” they pay taxes and rates and receive services from the state or local authorities. An invasion and unresisted occupation is usually seen as an acceptance that a conquest has occured.
To make a belated claim of undiminished sovereignty is usually regarded as a form of secession/rebellion.
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Tuhoe did not sign the treaty. They should not be treated the same way as other iwi who did sign the treaty.
Modern governments should not assume that they can treat Tuhoe the same way they treat other iwi.
Tuhoe have resisted the temptation to develop their lands in the same way that many other parts of NZ have been “developed”.
In part that is due to their isolation, but in part it is due to the resistance of people such as Rua Kenana and Tame Iti (and nameless others) who don’t subscibe to the capitalist notion.
We should all be grateful that they have had an alternative view, or there would not even be a “Te Uruwera National Park”
From a Tuhoe point of view, I would imagine that the current government, and the Police who “invaded” Ruatoki would meet the description of “terrorists”.
From our current government’s point of view, naturally, Tuhoe activists would meet the definition of “terrorists”. Where to from here? I would like to see the government negotiate with Tuhoe separately from the Waitangi mechanism. Why?
Because the real issue behind Tuhoe grievances is not so much about territory, as about whether or not governments should only rule for the benefit of “normal” people (ie the capitalist average we see around us every day), or whether governments should also allow the existence of alternative peoples…eg: people who (for whatever reason) cannot or will not fit the Eurocentric, capitalistic, modernistic, mechanistic world which has developed in this country.
Where will such people live? How will they have a raise a family when local council bylaws prevent them building their own homes unless they have at least $300,000 on hand, or the ability (and/or desire) to borrow and repay such a sum? The real battle for Tuhoe, and also the real definition of terrorism, both rest upon what we define as being the acceptable way to live in the modern world. There is a clash between the modern, capitalistic way, and the old way that our ancestors accepted for thousands (millions?) of years…the simplistic way of day-to-day existence living that is the lot of all those who do not, or cannot, accept a “citified” way of living.
My personal choice would be to see the Uruweras (and the people living there) to be a “sovereign” country that remains separate from the rest of New Zealand (just as they intended by not signing the Treaty). Obviously this would only apply to the lands beyond the confiscation line. It would provide a place for those who cannot or will not accept the rule of European law and capitalism to exist. What is wrong with that?? Who knows, after global warming and modern pollution have done their darndest, it may be that the backwater peoples of Tuhoe and the pighunters of the Uruwera highcountry may be the only ones to survive into the future. Most of Auckland will be underwater at any rate. Same with Lambton Quay.
Oh, bye the way, just to link back to the original reason for this thread…did anyone pick up on Meurants convictions, and begin to understand why he hates the Police so much now?
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Toad, I can’t address the constitutional issue because I don’t know what it is, although I suspect it is the same one raised by The Commission on Native Land Laws 1891:
The commission argued that “By the law of nations, English occupation vested the ultimate title to all lands in the Crown. The Maoris at the moment of annexation became tenants; but they did not hold the highest form of tenancy -that of a simple fee. The Maori title is that of occupation, but occupation by an indefeasible right.”
The sole Maori member of the Commission, James Carroll, dissented from the passage in the report quoted above “The Crown bases its title to land in New Zealand not on the right of discovery or conquest, but on the Treaty of Waitangi. By that treaty the exclusive right of pre-emption over such lands as the Native proprietors might be disposed to alienate was yielded to Her Majesty”
It is notable that the section 71 of the New Zealand Constitution Act of 1852 that allowed for “M?ori districts”, where M?ori law and custom were to be preserved, was never implemented. And that the ten Provincial Councils were replaced by 63 County Councils in 1877. A classic example of “divide and conquer” by central government politicians to neutralise the threat of decentralisation. If central government politicians didn’t want to share power with provincial councils then they wouldn’t have wanted to share power with Tuhoe or any other iwi either. But, it seems to me, the crux of the constitutional issue is the question “on what basis were the lands of New Zealand vested in the British Crown?” Only when that question is answered can you move on to questions about the legal or constitutional status of Tuhoe.
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“It is notable that the section 71 of the New Zealand Constitution Act of 1852 that allowed for “M?ori districts?, where M?ori law and custom were to be preserved, was never implemented.”
This would have been in accord with the English language version of the Treaty – allowing continuing chieftainship for iwi (that is self gvoernment in their own defined areas).
It is notable this was not implemented even before the Land Wars (confiscations) made this impossible for many iwi. After the Land Wars any remaining chieftainshiop was vested in the collective remnant – Maori Seats and or any local government which was premised around any continuing iwi (presumably Tuhoe is claiming it’s own continuing sense of iwi self government chieftainship is/was not dependent on the Treaty).
Obviously by 1891 – with the new order based around Maori seats (then a useful way to limit Maori electoral power) bedded in the Treaty was seen by Pakeha as just the vehicle for occupation and control (how else could the Land Wars . Thus only Maori seeking some security from any further dispossession would cite the Treaty.
Obviously the 1891 position has since been recanted by government, but is this only for iwi who signed the Treaty? Have iwi who did not signed the treaty been able to make claims under it? As I see it, those iwi who did not sign the Treaty and who do not make claims under it, have a case to present – and I expect the Crown government response will be that for them alone we restate the decision of 1891 – we won you lost, so suck on … . Attempt to secede at your own peril “terrorists”.
In international law, the UN refused to accept annexation after 1949. The claim of occupation extingusihing prior sovereignty in 1891 is prior and is not negated by Treaty rights for those tribes which signed the Treaty. Tuhoe did not.
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Obviously by 1891 – with the new order based around Maori seats (then a useful way to limit Maori electoral power) bedded in the Treaty was seen by Pakeha as just the vehicle for occupation and control (how else could the Land Wars BE RATIONALISED). Thus only Maori seeking some security from any further dispossession would cite the Treaty.
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I take it the Greens support a self governing Tuhoe area? Since the Greens are positive towards Tino Rangitiratanga?
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Must say I don’t think our police should have to put up with people shouting at them a few inches from their faces. As a law abiding citizen I take that personally as I feel the police are their for us (law and order) and deserve respect.
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jh: I agree. Judging by the behaviour of so many of these protestors, they would prefer that the rule of law did not exist.
The unfortunate problem with the rule of law is that we must all live by it, even if it is sometimes unpalatable to do so. Personally I’m happy to put up with a bit of personal restraint in order to live in a society without napalm.
These people are obviously badly brought up and mostly don’t deserve the protection the law and police give them.
Give this country 6 months without law and you’d find that these types of selfish, loudmouthed protestors would suddenly find this quite a different country to live in.
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I imagine quite a bit few DNA samples landed in police mouths.
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I should add that that would rile civil libertarians.
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I really must be getting old… I just read a Herald editorial I agreed with. Maybe I should just shoot myself.
It’s about Winsome Peters’ attempt to play the “race card”, accusing Maori activists of supporting apartheid :
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10473857
“Apartheid was an oppressive policy of separate development inflicted on a dispossessed majority by a ruling minority. Those protesting against the police actions and their courtroom sequels are not seeking apartheid but evenhanded justice, openly dispensed. Nor may Maori activists or their supporters sensibly be called racists. Racism has nothing to do with skin colour, and everything to do with power. Anyone who argues that those arrested in Tuhoe and elsewhere last month are more powerful than the state authority unleashed on them is deluded. Or trying to win votes by any means necessary.”
… or maybe the Herald has changed more than I have?
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Alistair… don’t go as far as shooting yourself, but how can you agree with an editorial that states “Racism has nothing to do with skin colour, and everything to do with power.”
Racism has everything to do with skin colour, and pretty much nothing else. That is why it is so pathetic that people cry racism at the drop of the hat.
Surely these people can look beneath their own skin colour (as Winston Peters did) and see that the community came under scrutiny because of the web of deceit woven within it by a likeminded group of malcontents who used the isolation of that community to hide their intentions.
The innocent within that community were subject to scrutiny as a result of their geographic proximity to shady characters whom the police did not want to allow to escape their grasp.
Not because of racism.
Brown is brown, pink is pink, napalm is napalm, and a corgi is not a labrador. Spot the difference?
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That sounds like Marxism (?), (the idea that minorities can’t be racist). No one sees others as they really are, we approximate, and sometimes get it wrong, and that applies to everybody.
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“Institutional racism and other bigotry” is premised on the dispossessed protesting about it and because this makes work for the police (the security arm of the establishment and the propertied middle class), they become prejudiced in their dealings with those involved.
And of course the supporters of the police tend to comment that some people not brought up the “right way” should not have the same civil liberties – anyone read the third article of the Treaty.
So while banning fireworks sales to Maori, because they are not British has appeal …,
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I imagine there be many in Green party think like that…. but is it constructive?
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,i>But Collins also said that the police had “little option? but to proceed with the charges, and that some of the evidence had come very close to meeting the standard. He said the police had brought an end to what were some “very disturbing activities? in the Ureweras, and praised the professionalism and integrity of the police.
“Some may try to interpret my decision as criticism of the police,? Collins went on. “Nothing could be further from the truth.?
http://www.stuff.co.nz/blogs/politics/2007/11/09/terror-accused-should-thank-the-crown-not-condemn-it/
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SPC: it sounds as if you believe that every human life has the same value. Of course this is not true.
If you are a believer in evolution you must accept that some human lives are more valuable than others because they are more evolutionarily advanced.
If you are a believer in creation you must accept that some human lives are more valuable than others because they are capable of behaving in a more appropriate way (however God defines ‘more appropriate).
There are no other options.
The job of the police is to be predjudiced against those who behave in a certain way. That is the whole purpose of having a law.
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SPC: it sounds as if you believe that every human life has the same value. Of course this is not true.
If you are a believer in evolution you must accept that some human lives are more valuable than others because they are more evolutionarily advanced.
If you are a believer in creation you must accept that some human lives are more valuable than others because they are capable of behaving in a more appropriate way (however God defines ‘more appropriate’).
There are no other options.
The job of the police is in fact to be predjudiced against those who behave in a certain way. That is the whole purpose of having a peaceful society based on law. The law defines what is appropriate, and the police attack or restrain those who behave outside of the law.
The concept of living subject to law sounds oppressive to some, but in reality if we did away with law tomorrow our society would degenerate into countrywide conflict within a day.
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