A rough beast slouching towards Wellington?
Chris Trotter has used his column in the Sunday Star Times to argue that National’s slipup over caps on GPs’ fees and the sale of SOEs revealed the true National Party. He finishes with the line: “But, now we’ve seen these masters of deception vexed to nightmare by a colleague’s indiscretion, we know, for certain, that it’s the same National beast that slouches towards Wellington to be reborn.” Which got me looking for the original poem by Yeats, and here it is.
The Second Coming.
- Turning and turning in the widening gyre
- The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
- Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
- Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
- The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
- The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
- The best lack all conviction, while the worst
- Are full of passionate intensity.
- Surely some revelation is at hand;
- Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
- The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
- When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
- Troubles my sight: somewhere in the sands of the desert
- A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
- A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
- Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
- Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
- The darkness drops again; but now I know
- That twenty centuries of stony sleep
- Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
- And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
- Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
Quite a poem. John Key is no rough beast; he is a human being like Helen Clark and deserving of respect like any human being. But if the Nats want to launch part three of the new right revolution, then this kind of rhetoric will just be the beginning.
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September 30th, 2007 at 3:00 pm
No comment from you on Labour’s pathetic performance in the health sector I see, let me remind you Russel, it is 5 Billion that they have wasted and you think it is important to mention that the Nat’s might do away with the cap on fee’s.
Please stop pretending that you care and tell the truth.
September 30th, 2007 at 5:41 pm
Um, BB, since when were the Greens responsible for Labour’s failings in health? The Green Party has either opposed or abstained every Labour Budget since 2003, so dump this on a Labour blog somewhere.
Anyway, it appears you support abolishing the cap on doctors fees.
If a family of 5 has to live on $30K a year (which is what successive Labour and National policies have done to wages), how the hell do you expect them to pay $80 every time a family member has to go to the doctor?
Or should Government just subsidise whatever doctors charge? Or do we just leave poor people to get sick and die?
September 30th, 2007 at 10:15 pm
Its obvious who the National party represent, and what their policies are likely to be, even if they don’t openly state them. I don’t know why the topic even gets raised.
I suspect I am too cynical, but here are what I believe are some fundamental truths about politics:
1) 80% of politicians are compulsive liars, and of these 80%, 75% don’t realise they are liars.
2) There is not much difference between any of the major political parties, and most of the minor parties.
3) Labour hasn’t represented workers for decades.
4) Most politicians are corrupted by power.
5) Idealistic politicians realise they can not advance the policies they want to without selling their souls.
6) Once the idealistic politicians mentioned in (5) have sold their souls to the devil, they learn that the devil doesn’t usually keep his side of the bargain.
And I could probably go on and on.
September 30th, 2007 at 11:08 pm
Goodness me. Such rhetoric. So full of ‘passionate intensity’.
Still, I lack conviction that your intentions are honourable in this - the atheistic Greens concerned with painting the Nats as the evil beast of a second coming? The Hitler comparison past the use by date Russel?
So, you realise when people say “But” they are saying “disregard everything I’ve said to this point” You know, like “I’m sorry, but …”
John Key is no rough beast; he is a human being like Helen Clark and deserving of respect like any human being. But …. this kind of rhetoric will just be the beginning.
as I said, full of passionate intensity.
By the “sale of SOEs” you of course mean the ‘up to 25% of selected SOE’s that was tabled for discussion? For a moment there, it looked like you are worried the Nats will push for a 100% sale of all SOE’s.
I’m still worried the Greens and Labour are out to wreck what little democratic freedom we have remaining in this country. I’ve got the cold hard evidence of an abomination of a Bill before parliament.
October 1st, 2007 at 5:16 am
I suppose Russel sees the numbers 666 on John Key’s forehead as well?
October 1st, 2007 at 7:00 am
G. Monbiot just wrote an interesting article on the subject and what has happened in the UK since it was implemented: http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2007/09/04/the-fat-cats-protection-lea gue/
October 1st, 2007 at 8:05 am
“..A rough beast slouching towards Wellington..”
(is that semi-autobiographical..?..russel..?..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
October 1st, 2007 at 9:27 am
Chris “messiah complex” Trotter in fine form.
October 1st, 2007 at 11:55 am
If this kind of referencing is what Trotter devolves to after publishing his memoirs (oh, sorry, was that a serious history of the working class?), then we should send a note around to the editorial boards of the major publishers, not to encourage him any further.
He’ll be quoting 19th century pit-miners’ songs next.
I’m all for a rousing chorus of “Bread and Roses” on a union protest, don’t get me wrong, but I don’t think getting all apocalyptically lyrical about National’s behaviour is really
a)rational or
b)going to help anyone,
except for perhaps inflating Key’s ego beyond it’s already stupendous boundaries.
Key’s own words will shoot him down quicker than any reference to turgid 19th century poetry, given his recent track record with blindlingly arrogant utterances.
Or perhaps I’m being harsh on John Key, when the real target should be his scriptwriters? Time for a quick game of “sack the PR hack”?
October 1st, 2007 at 3:09 pm
It definitely hasn’t been a good week for the Nats though.
Aside from Chris Trotter’s opinion piece, which is predictable, they’ve taken a pasting from:
New Zealand Herald editorial
Colin Espiner in The Press
Tracy Watkins in the Dominion Post.
October 1st, 2007 at 6:19 pm
Toad
The Greens are responsible for this govt’s shocking performance in the health sector because YOU continue to support them, please do not try and tell me that you would remain silent about this issue of the Nat’s were in power.
It may have escaped you but we have a major shortage of medical professionals in NZ, capping what they can earn is not going to help that shortage.
On the question of the family of five, yes I do expect them to pay $80 every time they go to the doctor, at the moment many do not have a doctor to go to or have to wait for hours and hours at some god forsaken “wellness” (its not even a word) center, if we pay our medical professionals more then we would keep many of them in NZ.
I also note that Russel chose to overlook some of the very good ideas proposed in the Nats health policy, for instance the idea of free training and a bonding period for doctors is a step in the right direction but of course Russel chose to ignore that.
My original point still stands, I wish Russel would stop pretending he cares, if he did then as co leader he could put some real heat on this govt, the fact that he does not do so speaks volumes, this coupled with his high public profile right now leads one to think that the Greens have indeed done a deal with Labour for the post election period
October 1st, 2007 at 6:25 pm
I’m thoroughly enjoying “Speaking to the Truth to Power” and cannot recommend it enough to those who enjoy good debate, thinking about NZ and where it might be headed, and “seeing” things as others see them.
I am concerned about the alarming trend which continues in this country to equate money with happiness resulting in the media and politics, and therefore our institutions, our health and our education being measure in terms of economics.
The “news” is either about a role call of who died today or something or other about “The Economy”.
Be it National or Labour this fixation/obsession with “The Economy” merely serves to persuade everyone whose goal in life is to achieve ownership of more “stuff” that it is, of itself, is a laudable goal.
Of course I have to pay bills. I also pay taxes, something I do reasonably happily because I choose to live as part of a community, and believe that inherent in that is an obligation/desire to help those around me. Could money be better spent? Probably. The idea that if we paid no tax we’d all be so jolly philanthropic makes me chuckle. Often the measure of generosity is how much we give when we can’t afford it, not how much we give away when we can. Most of the upper-middle class people and wealthier that I know, and there are many of them, have very large mortgages, turn over their cars more frequently that I do, and give little or nothing to chairty. I refer to those I know well enough to have discussed the level of charity generosity.
We are succeeding in dumbing down our nation (not because of NCEA) but because we place a value only on those thing we can value economically and have forgotten that many of the things which our culture does just for sh%ts and giggles (that is, personal happiness) are worthwhile intrinsically.
Many man years ago Marilyn Waring wrote a great paper, while she was at OECD I think, about placing an “economic value” on unpaid labour and environmental effects. In this she has been far ahead of her times. God forbid the media or we, dust off her work and educate ourselves. Who knows, it may end up improving our economy!
I believe it is important to remember that just because 80% of a group think or want something doesn’t mean they’re “right”. Being part of the majority, or the “winning” side can sometimes means being at the front of the slide down.
“The problem of power is how to achieve its responsible use rather than its irresponsible and indulgent use — of how to get men of power to live for the public rather than off the public.” Robert Kennedy
October 1st, 2007 at 6:27 pm
big bro
Do you, or anyone, know why, with our shortage of doctors and others in the medical field, and the high cost of Degrees in this area, we don’t offer scholarships in return for bonding the graduates to service? If they don’t want to be bonded, they don’t get a scholarship?
- Few men are willing to brave the disapproval of their fellows, the censure of their colleagues, the wrath of their society. Moral courage is a rarer commodity than bravery in battle or great intelligence. Yet it is the one essential, vital quality for those who seek to change a world that yields most painfully to change. - RFK
October 1st, 2007 at 6:39 pm
merlinnz
I do not know why we do not offer a scholarship.
Personally I would pay them a bursary as well as give them free tuition, at the end of their study I would bond them to NZ (unless they need to study overseas for a SET period of time) for another ten years, that would make their age about 34-35 and by that time most would have settled down.
Of course you cannot stop people going overseas and in the event that they did I would simply say ‘thats fine, but before you go here is a bill for $350,000 and we want it paid in full before you leave the country please”
October 1st, 2007 at 7:29 pm
Agreed. Choice + consequences. Something we would want our doctors to understand anyway!
October 1st, 2007 at 10:22 pm
hmmm
compulsion is good. Why not force people to become doctors at birth.
Face the facts socialists, this is a market economy, you have to pay for goods and services. If you want Doctors to stay in NZ, pay them more. If you don’t, someone else will.
October 1st, 2007 at 10:30 pm
Big Bro,
I like your idea of a bonded scholarship, and reckon the concept could be applied to a lot of other training courses as well (teachers, engineers and so on).
Not all the problems in the health sector can be attributed to funding, or lack of funding. If this were so, how come Cuba, quite a poor country, now has a lower infant mortality rate than the United States, and only 0.1 of a point worse than New Zealand? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_ra te_(2005) )
In fact, why should New Zealand even think of emulating a private health care system like the US has, when the statistics show that it can’t beat the health care system of a poor nation such as Cuba in some important areas? Maybe the Cuban health care model is what we should be following?
October 1st, 2007 at 10:41 pm
Getting back to the initial topic of this thread:
If National wins the next election, I can see a whole lot of people whinging 12 months further down the track about how the National government is implementing policies they didn’t campaign on. The same applies to Labour, it will just be a different group of whingers.
The state of politics in this country is pretty sad. Politicians and governments are not accountable enough, and get away with lies and deception all the time. If people have to guess what a party stands for (and I’m not pointing fingers only at National, Labour is just as bad), and can’t believe what the politicians are telling them, then why the hell do they continue to vote for them? Is it a case of voting for the lesser of two evils?
We need more accountable government, and politicians who represent the people who vote for them. At present, things are back to front, most politicians represent, in this order:
1) Themselves
2) Their party
3) The people who voted for them
October 1st, 2007 at 10:59 pm
I’ve been digging up more interesting health statistics. Here are the stats for life expectancy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy
Cuba is one place ahead of the USA. Why on earth is any country considering following the US in a market driven health care system? I would have thought statistics like this would convince people that there is a better, cheaper way?
October 2nd, 2007 at 5:49 am
samiuela
In no way would I ever support free tuition for teachers, as far as I am concerned they should be made to pay double the cost.
October 2nd, 2007 at 5:51 am
sweet disorder
“compulsion is good”
No compulsion, but choice. No one has to become a doctor, and people who want to become doctors but dont want to be bonded can pay for 25% of their education like everyone else. While students see themselves as “user pays”, they are still very heavily subsidised, and rightly so if we want to encourage education. Of course we are bak to encouraging it amongst the middle calls and above and non maori and polynesian.
Back to the “topic”.
Surely any failing in health is everyones? Us included? I have serious doubts that either national or labour have any lasting answer given the increased move towarrd short-term politics. Three year planning is not in the best interests of Health or NZ. Look at transport in Auckland. It’s a crumbling infrastructure mainly due to voter driven campaigns and fear of spending money on transport and upsetting rate payers who want more money in their pockets.
Health is a stagnating beast and I doubt that either party has a truly workable plan that they think voters will “buy”.
The increasing problem in NZ is this love affair with so-called “common sense” which seems to have become a substitute for status quo or resistance to change. Just because 80% of a group or population wants something doesn’t mean it’s good, right or even workable. And I’m not suggesting most people are idiots, quite the contrary. However as long as “most” people get their information about anything from a media such as ous, full or more “reporters” than journalists. The sound byte rules and is truly a dangerous way to form opinions about important things.
I’m only 41 and even I can see how our TV has changed as an information conduit. Insightful and hard edged journalism is almost dead folks, replaced by cheaper “reality” (it’s not my reality by the way) TV and even our “news” bulletins waste time with Paris Hilton, Madonna’s adoption or Brad’s latest marriage.
Nothing to do with Health? Of course it is. While the population are diverted and even covered in the media/political subterfuge of intelligent thought/debate decidions are made about Health, transport, education or violence in the home…
October 2nd, 2007 at 5:53 am
As long as they are hitting the maximum tax take the instant they ender practice and are saddled with the full-freight of their med-school tuitions, they WILL leave.
As will every other talented graduate and skilled worker who finds themselves unable to avail themselves of the tax break that home ownership/landlordism provides. (BB is not wide of the mark with respect to scholarships…)
This is so flipping obvious to anyone coming to this economy from the outside that it seems incredible that others don’t see it, but Cullen doesn’t and Key is with him except that he wants to cut taxes for rich people more.
Cui Bono is a p!ss-poor philosophy for a governing party in New Zealand…. or anywhere else.
respectfully
BJ
October 2nd, 2007 at 6:07 am
We pay our police to train, and traiming is only about 3 months. We make teachers, nurses and doctors find the money for their training, then start them on low wages. In the meantime 19 year olds who chose to be police, and are effectively our ambulanc at the bttom of the cliff have hit the ground running with over $45p.a.
October 2nd, 2007 at 10:15 am
Perhaps if we paid them to train, more quality people would apply, and we could be pickier. We have police officers six months out of training, showing the ropes, tasers, guns to those who just graduated and both under 20!
October 2nd, 2007 at 11:23 pm
and deserving of respect like any human being
Really? Any human being is deserving of respect?
October 2nd, 2007 at 11:50 pm
Big Bro:
You wrote:
“In no way would I ever support free tuition for teachers, as far as I am concerned they should be made to pay double the cost.”
May I ask why? I’m curious why you seem to hold such a grudge against the education profession. Is an educated population a threat to you in some way?
October 3rd, 2007 at 6:52 am
Samiuela
You bet I have a problem with the education “profession”.
If all they did was educate then I would respect them a lot more, the trouble is that they are not capable of doing that without preaching their evil social engineering agenda.
If they want to be teachers then they can take out student loans like the rest.
October 3rd, 2007 at 7:37 am
I’m intrigued. Can you give some examples of what you mean by “preaching their evil social engineering agenda”. I’m guessing you have something/s very specific in mind?
October 3rd, 2007 at 10:25 am
Merlinnz,
The education profession has been infiltrated by evil, godless communists. They are corrupting our children, and giving them ideas that they can achieve something better in life than being a mindless cog in the machinery of capitalism. Big Bro is right, these people are to be feared, they are teaching our children how to think for themselves. I wish.
Cheers,
Samiuela.
October 3rd, 2007 at 11:15 am
I take it your tongue is firmly ensconsed in your cheek. I am genuinely interested in his experiences that lead to such vehement dislike.
October 3rd, 2007 at 11:33 am
thought for the day russel..on whoar fm one i just played the manic street preachers doing ‘if you tolerate this ..your children will be next’..
http://www.listenlive.net.nz/listen/Whoar/index.php
have you heard that ditty ..?..russel..?
it’s an essay about the mportance of fighting repression..
and while listening..thoughts of the electoral finance bill..and the greens (astonishing) u-turn on their cannabis policies..
(and no..!..don’t come back at me with some ‘harm mimimisation ‘bullsh*t/justification..!..eh..?..)
and what’s with that u-turn on cannabis..?
i thought the green party frowned on arbitrary dictates like that..?
and that ‘full party discussion’ must take place before any policy-lurchs..
so..!..what happened here..?
why no discussion/dialogue..?
why just this sudden u-turn on longheld green party policies..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
October 3rd, 2007 at 1:18 pm
you know Phil, I can’t help but wonder why you waste your energy on politics and politicians if you have, as you appear to, an absolute aversion to any policy not acted upon… that leaves you no party to vote for, do you support independent candidates?
October 3rd, 2007 at 3:09 pm
yes.. i did waste quite a few years..and p*ss away quite of energy there..
you live and learn..
and a small point i know..merlinz..
but here..yes we are not only talking about policy/promises not acted upon..(c.f. medical marijuana bill)..
but we are also talking policy u-turns..
(c.f..the greens supporting anti-pot laws/the testing/prosecuting of pot smokers..
‘in the nterests of road safety’..according to metiria turei..
that is the u-turn i am talking about..
a u-turn dictated from the top..
that makes a total joke of purported green party restrictions against such arbitrary policy lurches by the party leadership..
and if you think that is just a ’small matter’..and of no concern..?
(visualise my palms outstreched..accompanied by a shrug of the shoulders..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
October 3rd, 2007 at 3:17 pm
I guess I’m just surprised yu are surprised that political parties do u-turns.
October 3rd, 2007 at 5:51 pm
Melrinnz
If Samiuela is an example of what our modern teaching “profession” turns out then I think you will be able to work out what I mean.
October 3rd, 2007 at 6:23 pm
i guess i believed the hype/thought the greens were ‘different’..
my bad..!
hey..!..and here is how big a mug i am..
i also took the ‘neither left nor right..but out in front’ mantra to heart..(!)
mug o’ the month..!..or what..!
don’t let an amway salesperson anywhere near me..
i am ripe for plucking..!
phil(whoar.co.nz)
October 3rd, 2007 at 6:58 pm
John Key got you by the short & curlies then, Phil?
Instead of bleating about lack of progress on the medpot Bill, try to understand the reality. If it is pushed forward by the Greens now, it will fail to get the numbers to be referred to Select Committee, and it may be years before we get it drawn in the ballot again. If it is deferred till after the election, there may be a chance of success as support from a major party could be negotiated into a cooperation agreement.
I know which option I prefer. Without wanting to buy into cheese advertising slogans, it is true that sometimes good things take time.
October 3rd, 2007 at 7:06 pm
big bro
I haven’t been around enough to have got to know any of you. Is Samiuela your reason for such intense dislike? I got the impression you had more offline, real life as it were examples.
October 3rd, 2007 at 7:14 pm
Toad
Any chance of letting the voters know who you would be “negotiating” with about legalizing Marijuana before the election?
Labour and National will never support this bill as they know the vast majority of the people of NZ do not support it, mind you given that you rammed through the anti smacking bill against the wishes of the vast majority of kiwi’s I don’t suppose that matters to you really.
October 3rd, 2007 at 7:18 pm
“vast majority”? Which poll are you referring to big bro?
October 3rd, 2007 at 7:19 pm
Merlinnz
As a matter of fact I do, but I am sure that you are as aware as the rest of us how the teaching “profession” has been hijacked by the extreme feminist lesbian element.
Our education system has been destroyed to the extent that school exams mean nothing, boys are not encouraged to compete and as a result they are failing miserably, the male teacher is almost extinct and far to much time is wasted with PC rubbish.
Teachers are there to teach, they are not there to brainwash our kids with their let wing poison.
October 3rd, 2007 at 7:24 pm
The poll that said 82% of Kiwi’s did not want Sue Bradford’s bill
October 3rd, 2007 at 10:13 pm
toad said..”..John Key got you by the short & curlies then, Phil?..”
interesting that toad..a blog-name for a high-ranking green..accuses me of going to the dark side..
presumably because i dare criticise the total lack of anuy actionto sel this idea to the public..o get them to pressure the pollies..
don’t take me (and others) for a totally stupid dick..!..eh toad..?
(the ‘only options’..eh..?..)
you should all be hanging your fecking heads in shame over the inaction on medical pot..
and you never feckin’ intended to do diddly-squat on this..from square one..!
don’t try and bullsh*t a bullsh*tter..!..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
October 3rd, 2007 at 10:22 pm
and you have obviously read none of my writings on key..
(your loss..)
you do need to get out and about a bit more..eh..?
and y’know..!
pull the other one..!..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
October 3rd, 2007 at 10:31 pm
i’m not the one to have betrayed my beliefs/ideals..toad..
i’ll leave that to you..
and your (obviously) ‘cheap shot’ did you no favours..eh..?
(quite the ’shabby’ look there..eh toad..?..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
October 3rd, 2007 at 11:31 pm
Big Bro,
I can assure you that my political views were not influenced by my teachers. My teachers were more concerned with Newton, Einstein, and Heisenberg than Marx, Lenin or Trotsky. But evidently, according to you, the whole teaching profession has been poisoned by by the views of the latter three.
October 4th, 2007 at 3:22 am
The real problem, as I see it, is that the teachers colleges have been captured by relativists who have taught teachers to teach relativistic “thinking”. I don’t know whether they did this because they thought it would stamp out discrimination or for some other reason but the upshot is they have created a generation that can’t discriminate between right and wrong and for whom achieving concensus is more important than insisting on the best solution. And worst of all they are taught that the process of problemsolving is an end in itself rather merely the means to an end, that end being an effective, implemented solution.
October 4th, 2007 at 7:55 am
and hey toad..!..
just in case you hadn’t noticed..i also think your electoral reform bill..
is a poxy/repressive attack on our basic freedoms..
is this yet more evidence that john key ‘ has me by the short and curlies’..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
October 4th, 2007 at 8:40 am
My electoral reform bill too now Phil?
Hell, I haven’t even read the bloody thing, let alone had any role in developing it. For the record, from what I’ve read about it, I share many of the concerns that have been expressed by you and others on this blog about it.
October 4th, 2007 at 8:47 am
toad said..
“..For the record, from what I’ve read about it, I share many of the concerns that have been expressed by you and others on this blog about it…”
and..the ‘yours’ was a generic green one..
and can i ask what you are doing about/to fight this bill..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
October 4th, 2007 at 8:52 am
and gee..!
you need to have a heart-to-heart with your male co-leader..eh..?
(cos’..as you know..the ‘meat’ of this bill is but an echo of his (published in this forum) wishlist for any such legislation..
eh..?..)
(i would…but he dosen’t answer me..eh..?..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
October 4th, 2007 at 8:55 am
and..a ‘ggod try’ there..!..to try and define/control the debate away from the subject..(med-pot)..
..by use of an ad hominem..
(but it has ‘back-fired’ a wee bit..eh..?)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
October 4th, 2007 at 11:12 am
Kevyn,
Many of my teachers were taught to think relativistically (some at high school, most at university). I suspect we are talking about different types of relativity
Anyhow, I reckon that people place too much emphasis on the role of teachers (I’m not trying to minimise the role of teachers). I would like to see concrete examples of the “watered down, relativistic” teaching people are talking about … all the teachers I know seem to be good teachers, not much different than the teachers I had 20+ years ago. Parents, family etc also have a huge influence on kids. Finally, as the kids get older, they also have to take responsibility for their own learning … they can’t expect to be spoon fed forever.
October 4th, 2007 at 12:51 pm
big bro
The poll I was asking you about was not the anti smacking legislation but the topic you referred to , legalising marijuana, it was that you said the vast majority of NZers are against. So, can you point me to that poll?
If you don’t mind me asking, how old are you? I wonder because your impression of teaching “extreme feminist lesbian element” reminds me of the reaction many people had during the late 70’s and early 80’s.
If you pay peanuts you get monkeys. Until we indicate we value teaching through how much we pay people to do it, we will attract lower end people (whatever that might mean to you all) and have our hopes left with those who care about the job not the money.
Big Bro, how many people do you know working at a job for low wages just because they have a passion for it? It’s no wonder the real Estate industry is full of ex-teachers, the pay is better, the hours are better and there are no parents back seat driving.
October 4th, 2007 at 12:59 pm
The issue of boys laggin behind girls has been addressed, effectively or not, since it ws first discovered. I chuckle when I consider how long it took to;
a) notice a lagging behind in girls; and then
b) to try to changeit
As a society, people may dislike what you describe as “extreme feminist lesbian element ” but it was these people, men and women, who stood up and demanded girls get a better educational deal that now means that as soon as a disparity in boys was noticed, it was addressed.
October 6th, 2007 at 1:13 am
samiuela, yes, well, I think I prefer Einsteins relativity over philosophy’s relativism :roll:.