He hikoi a Hone
MP’s should not throw stones at Hone Harawira for doing his job. In making haste to outrage they had better hope that they can avoid the sort of scrutiny that Hone Harawira has had for his decision to visit the aboriginal communities in the Northern Territories. For while Hone was doing what he was sent to Parliament to do, others have had less scruples.I have been on trips where MPs bugger off to play golf, leaving just a few of us to attend the official functions. There was the famous camel riding excursions in the deserts of Africa; rather than attending memorials to fallen soldiers. Hone at least was working, not skivving off.
He was doing his Parliamentary work. New Zealand and Australia are very close and issues affecting them are important issues for us as well. Otherwise the Justice and Electoral Select Committee would never have gone to Australia in the first place.
It is possible to arrange for side trips through whomever is organising the visit. It would have been better to have arranged the trip for the day after the formal select committee business had concluded. It can make good sense to pursue a range of issues through one overseas trip rather than make multiple ones. The only reason that some MPs get to play golf on taxpayer funded trips, without scandal, and Hone gets roasted for doing his work, is that some MPs choose to work the process differently from Hone.
What they have done is created a greater public awareness of the potential for misbehaviour of MP’s while overseas. And that may not be a good thing for those who enjoy camel rides or playing golf on the taxpayer’s dollar.
You can see our release here, Hone’s report of his trip, and Audrey Young’s blog on the issue.
August 13th, 2007 at 6:17 pm
is nandor kicking himself he didn’t go with hone..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
August 14th, 2007 at 6:56 am
Metiria
Is that the best you can come up with to justify the abuse of tax payer money?
John Harawira is a disgrace, this little jaunt of his is nothing but electioneering, he (and his party) are well aware that all they have to do is pander to the small minority of radical Maori racists to ensure their parliamentary survival.
At a time when our country is facing an epidemic of Maori child abuse he sees fit to go and support the rights of aboriginal communities to abuse their own children.
John Howard is to be applauded for his actions, how I wish we had a leader brave enough to do the same.
August 14th, 2007 at 8:28 am
pull yr head in big bro..
what hone did was the right thing to do..
it has long disturbed many that our country/politicians..just seem to have blithely ignored the ongoing genocide of the australian aboriginals..
for decades now..
‘australias’ shame’..has been allowed to stay australian..
and the depth of racism against aborigines there cannot be underestimated..
a couple of decades back..i used to wear..in aussie.. a tshirt that had the aboriginal land rights flag/symbol on it..
it used to get me into ‘vigorous’ conversations on a regular basis..
and at the very least made me the the target of glowering australians..
any changes there since then..have been incremental at best..
and once again.big bro..
.you don’t disappoint in your ability to reduce complex issues to jingoistic rightwing riffs..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
August 14th, 2007 at 8:43 am
The Australian Aboriginals have been in Australia longer than Europeans have been in Europe; it is hard to reconcile our two cultures, especially with the world at this volatile stage… I suggest your side would have simple easy solutions eg: “this illegal occupation must end”… [5%]
jh
August 14th, 2007 at 8:45 am
Hone is a genius. Big problems with Maori child abuse back here, and where is he?
Far, far away - distracting attention.
Credit where it’s due.
When was the last strong Maori leader? I’m struggling to recall. Certainly there has been no one as strong as Howard.
August 14th, 2007 at 8:51 am
Milk prices skyrocketed in July, up 10 per cent, Statistics New Zealand figures show, and other food prices also took a hike.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/4163500a13.html
I heard this on RNZ this morning… There is no mention of ethanol and corn just demand for commodities……………………??
jh
August 14th, 2007 at 9:34 am
oh look..first big bro..now p.e.l..
one thing in common..rightwing racist drivel..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
August 14th, 2007 at 9:46 am
Meanwhile, Rome burns…
August 14th, 2007 at 9:54 am
“At a time when our country is facing an epidemic of Maori child abuse he sees fit to go and support the rights of aboriginal communities to abuse their own children”
This is pretty bloody low, Big Bro. This “If you don’t agree with my solution, you support child abuse” rubbish doesn’t do you any credit.
“When was the last strong Maori leader? I’m struggling to recall. Certainly there has been no one as strong as Howard.”
The definition of “strong” here being “acting like an enraged rhinoceros without thought, planning or any interest in the consequences of ones actions”. Glad to hear Maori don’t have leaders of this ilk.
August 14th, 2007 at 11:00 am
I like Sharples, although I don’t always agree with him.
Where is Alan Duff these days?
August 14th, 2007 at 3:16 pm
Phil
and the depth of racism against aborigines there cannot be underestimated.. — overestimated - of course. That’s a construct to watch carefully… it trips me on occasion. No disagreement.
Big Bro.. PEL… the deal here is that one of the problems is to know what the truth is on the ground. There’s claims of massive child and sexual abuse and drunken binges and then Howard sends in the Army and locks the place down hard and puts in prohibition.
Is Howard justified? Did he overreact? Is there a problem that needed this level of lockdown or are we looking at another racist face of Australia?
What IS the truth? If you’re an MP from this country you have to take an interest in what this truth is and you would be ill-advised to simply accept the official accounts without at least trying to check some of it out. I give Hone full marks for having the stones to try to do what he thought needed to be done. I don’t think he got the truth… he’d have needed more time, but I don’t think he was wrong in going and trying to find out.
The world needs more truth than it gets in the news every day.
respectfully
BJ
August 14th, 2007 at 4:02 pm
That’s not the point.
The point is that he was paid to attend a conference. From what I understand, we walked out early on that conference to pursue his own agenda.
If someone in my company did that, I’d fire them.
If they chose to do it in their own time - no problem.
Therein lies the difference.
August 14th, 2007 at 4:03 pm
I currently live in Australia, and the issue of child abuse in aboriginal communities is understandably getting a lot of attention. Here is my view, as an outsider, of the situation in Australia.
1) Howard’s predominant motivation appears to be to raise the issue of child abuse in order to get more votes at the upcoming election (the message he is giving is that the current Australian government is prepared to take the tough measures to deal with the problem).
2) There is the issue of a “land grab”. The government wants to take control of land for five years, supposedly because it is necessary to “get the job of dealing with abuse done”. How would measures like this be viewed in New Zealand?
3) Australian history is full of racism and appalling treatment of aborigines. During the mid twentieth century, removal of aboriginal children from their families (the stolen generations) was justified on the grounds of welfare. Earlier in the twentieth century, it was an overt and concerted effort to “breed out” the aboriginal race. There is actually very little doubt that Australian governments were involved in genocide (as defined by the United Nations) right up until the 1960s.
4) My personal view, as an outsider, is that there are still very strong “assimilationist” tendencies amongst a large proportion of the Australian population. In other words, aborigines will be tolerated, provided they act and live exactly like the “model” white Australian.
August 14th, 2007 at 4:22 pm
bj said/corrected…
“Phil
‘and the depth of racism against aborigines there cannot be underestimated..’ — overestimated - of course…”
um..!..no b.j..i meant ‘underestimated.’
(think again..!..eh..?..).
(yours..ever-in linguistic accuracy..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
August 14th, 2007 at 5:46 pm
Phil
I get “depth cannot be underestimated” to mean that if no matter how low I estimate the racism to be I have still not guessed it to be less than the actual low level of racism actually present.
Vice versa “depth cannot be overestimated” means that no matter how high my estimate might be it will not be higher than the actual level of racism present.
Perhaps there is actually a difference in the way we construe these words in the USA. Sort of like “tabled”. In the USA it is “under active consideration” and in Oz and here (I think) it is “set aside for later”.
There is always something.
respectfully
BJ
August 14th, 2007 at 5:57 pm
PEL
He isn’t “paid to attend a conference”… he is paid to be an MP.
IMHO he took responsibility and acted appropriately to give his constituents value for their votes.
If I have people representing me in government the last thing I want is authoritarian horse-puckey keeping them from finding out what is happening someplace other than where someone else has sent them.
They don’t “go where they are sent” they go where they choose. If their constituents don’t like the decisions being made they can correct the situation at the next election, but limitations placed on the elected representatives of the people have to be constructed pretty liberally if the people are to be represented effectively.
respectfully
BJ
August 14th, 2007 at 6:01 pm
no bj..
the meaning of the ‘understimate’:..
in this context of this.. it also means racism is so complete..it cannot be underestimated..(no matter how high you go..got that..?..)
so..both are ‘correct/fitting..b.j..
and i think..by your query/attempted correction..
you confirm a widely believed aphorism about americans..
that is their (almost) refreshing ignorances of the subtleties of language…
thus leading them to be labelled ..a very ‘literal’ people..
eh..?
b.j..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
August 14th, 2007 at 6:19 pm
Phil
We are separated by a common language here.
For me a racism so complete that any estimate of it, no matter how high will fall short, is going to ALWAYS be underestimated and cannot be overestimated.
Very literal, and an Engineer to boot. Logic says you ought to say it my way, but I accept your assertion and file the difference…. Sometimes I feel like “data” on Star Trek when dealing with the language here.
respectfully
BJ
August 14th, 2007 at 6:57 pm
As an MP, he was “paid to attend a conference�.
I don’t know why you’re having a semantic argument.
The speaker has already ruled on this.
August 14th, 2007 at 8:03 pm
How interesting!
Very few of you seem concerned as to why John Howard has had to introduce these brave and necessary measures.
I can only assume that most of you are more worried about being politically correct than you are about child abuse.
The facts are these, Aboriginal child abuse is at epidemic proportions, many Aboriginal leaders have praised John Howard’s plan yet most here choose to ignore that.
John Howard is doing what Aboriginal leaders could or would not do themselves.
John Harawira would be better spending time in NZ dealing with the Maori child abuse crisis, perhaps when he has fixed that problem he will be able to help the Aboriginals, until then this trip cannot be considered anything other than an electioneering jaunt.
August 14th, 2007 at 9:18 pm
b.j….from this end..
we always have to remember we are dealing with ‘the literal ones’..
and so have to tailor our language/communication subtleties..accordingly..
as in ‘de-subtle’..and to use our hands as explanation aids..
(americans like pointing..eh..?…they understand pointing..)
to fail to do so/to communicate as we normally do with each other.. means we walk into that ‘huh!’ wall of incomprehension/star trek data you referred to..
(and an engineer to boot..!..whoar..!..)
an american who is an engineer lifts that ‘lterality’ up to a whole new plane..
i feel for you..in your incomprehensions..b.j..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
August 14th, 2007 at 10:29 pm
you can be a condescending twat sometimes phil u.
August 14th, 2007 at 10:35 pm
Big Bro:
I’m sure Howard is concerned about child abuse. However, there are a lot of questions which need to be answered, such as:
1) Why is he neglecting the recommendations of the report which highlighted the child abuse issues, and instead implementing a totally different plan?
2) Why has his government not acted before now? These issues did not arise overnight. If the reason is because his government was unaware of the child abuse problem, it just highlights that the Liberal government has not paid very much attention to the welfare of aborigines until now (which coincidentally is just a few months before an election). If his government was aware of the problems, then the inaction is damning.
Personally, I think John Howard is much more concerned with being re-elected than with the welfare of aboriginal children. This is not to say he doesn’t care about aboriginal children, just that he has got his priorities terribly wrong.
Now to deal with your accusation about being politically correct: Personally, I don’t give two hoots about being politically correct. I’ll say exactly what I think, irrespective of what other people think. Is this the definition of being politically correct?
August 15th, 2007 at 12:10 am
bj & phil
According to
http://www.meriam-webster.com/dictionary/underestimate
and
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/overestimate
you are both using these words correctly.
August 15th, 2007 at 6:17 am
somnambulantarbourlover/a.k.a..’the precious one’.. said..
“..you can be a condescending twat sometimes phil u..”
whilst admiring your robust marriage of anatomical impossibilities with your attribution of mental/emotional characteristics to what is essentially a mix of flesh and hair..
..and while not arguing against the intention/meaning of your general premise..
(how could i..?..)
i would submit that in this case..the target of my condescending twattery/attempt at humour..
..would get/appreciate the intended good nature of this latest round of thrust ‘n parry..
eh..?
you ‘precious’..tree-interacter you..!
phil(whoar.co.nz)
August 15th, 2007 at 8:53 am
Why does Big Bro keep referring to Hone Harawira as “John” Harawira? Or spelling Helen Clark’s surname with a K for that matter?
Anyway, good on Hone for going up to the Northern Territory and giving the Australian Government a bit of stick. Howard isn’t the slightest bit interested in solving the child abuse problems among aboriginal communities. If her were, he would be looking to resource those communities to deal with the issue, rather than imposing the “big bro” approach of yet another land grab.
Australia has an even sorrier record than New Zealand of dispossessing the indigenous people of their economic base. Until Eddie Mabo successfully challenged it in the High Court (in a case that didn’t conclude until 1992, after his death), successive Australian Govenments for over 200 years had perpetuated the legal fiction of Terra Nullus - i.e. that the white settlers who came to Australia found an “empty land”. Indigenous Australian land owndership was not recognised.
And Howard still won’t even apologise, let alone begin work towards redressing the systematic dispossession of indigenous Australians of their land and culture. This is the real isssue that needs to be addressed if the various problems afflicting many indigenous Australian communities, including child abuse and alcoholism, are to be addressed - restoring the dignity and aspirations of indigenous Australians by restoring the economic base they of which they have been dispossessed.
Hone understands this, because the same dispossession of his people of their economic base has happened here - albeit by a different mechanism.
August 15th, 2007 at 9:15 am
The Australian treatment of Aborigines is a separate issue. No one is arguing that Hone shouldn’t go and look for himself.
The problem was he did so when he was paid to be doing something else.
This is nothing more than a Hone re-election campaign, imo. The supporters all cheer as Hone “takes it to da man!”.
I’m not sure how that benefits the NZ taxpayer. I’d also wonder what the reaction would be if a National MP went (paid) walkabout to investigate and criticise the government of Cuba, whilst proclaiming loudly he’s from New Zealand.
August 15th, 2007 at 10:13 am
gee peter..and what about the current national party mp..who while on taxpayer funded duties in the middle east..
instead of attending the (scheduled/planned) memorial service to our soldiers who gave their lives there in two world wars..
went joyriding on a camel..!
(what would your reaction to that be..?..)
and toad..b.b is just indulging in the racial slur of anglicising hones’ chosen name..
and p.e.l…tho’ we like to think we are the centre of the world..
the australian media reaction/reporting of hones’ tiki-tour there has been negligible..
the storm is only in our teacup..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
August 15th, 2007 at 10:34 am
>>what would your reaction to that be..?
He should be fired.
August 15th, 2007 at 10:47 am
PEL said: The problem was he did so when he was paid to be doing something else.
And he’s agreed to repay half the airfare, since he attended only half the Select Committee business, so not sure what the big deal is.
What concerns me more is that MPs are flying business class on a short hop to Melbourne. I can understand that a tall guy like Hone might be pretty uncomfortable flying a long haul to Europe economy class, and that MPs should be in a physical and mental state to work when they get to their destination. Business class might be appropriate for that. But for them to fly business class to Melbourne (and I presume the whole Select Committee did) when they could have got there for a quarter the cost seems a bit of an extravagance.
August 15th, 2007 at 11:05 am
>>not sure what the big deal is
Reportedly planning on that course of action before he went. Rather dishonest, wouldn’t you say?
Business Class, vacated hotel room, taxis, meals, sundry expenses, etc etc.
Perhaps taxpayers money would have been better spent on someone who planned to attend, or perhaps if the meeting was that unimportant, why go at all?
August 15th, 2007 at 11:06 am
“I can only assume that most of you are more worried about being politically correct than you are about child abuse.”
You can assume whatever you like - and you often do. Personally I don’t judge people’s concern over child abuse according to whether they’ve ranted about it on a blog or not.
Personally, I don’t think Howard’s actions will do much to stop child abuse. Probably it will make Aboriginal communities more vulnerable in the long run. It’s noticeable that the “Little Children are Sacred” report highlighted that a large amount of abuse of Aboriginal children is by non-Aboriginals (particularly organised abuse), but that seems to have been ignored.
August 15th, 2007 at 8:12 pm
toad Says:
August 15th, 2007 at 8:53 am
Australia has an even sorrier record than New Zealand of dispossessing the indigenous people of their economic base.
And Howard still won’t even apologise, let alone begin work towards redressing the systematic dispossession of indigenous Australians of their land and culture. This is the real isssue that needs to be addressed if the various problems afflicting many indigenous Australian communities, including child abuse and alcoholism, are to be addressed - restoring the dignity and aspirations of indigenous Australians by restoring the economic base they of which they have been dispossessed.
……………………………………….
The Aboriginals economic base was hunter gathering… you would have the ability to live as hunter gatherers restored?..
You would also have to either ensure they practiced birth control, or not make modern medicine available, or they would overshoot the carrying capacity.
[Perhaps welfare is the biggest insult you can make to indigenous people… nice like sugar, but bad in excess?]
No one could accuse you Green fundis of being pragmatists.
jh
August 15th, 2007 at 8:21 pm
Toad, Phul and others
I have read your replies, I note that not one of you has offered any alternative to Howard’s actions, you seem outraged simply because a white man has decided to try and fix a problem with Aboriginal people.
Do you not realise that while you wringing your hands over this little Aboriginal kids are being abused.
Somebody told me once (on this very site) that unless you are part of the solution then you are part of the problem, the hand wringing and politically correct rubbish I have read here is a classic example of why the Aussies are getting on and doing something about it…meanwhile nothing will change in NZ.
We prefer to have meetings, we prefer to make sure that we are not going to offend anybody culturally when the only solution to the problem is get stuck in boots and all and to hell with PC and cultural sensitivity.
Once you have put an end to child abuse you can worry about whose culture you have allegedly offended.
In all of this there is only once “culture” that matters and that is the “culture” that allows kids the precious gift of innocence.
Oh and Toad, I fail to see what is wrong with referring Mr Harawhira as John, we live in a country that recognizes three languages, I am simply choosing to use one of them.
Phul….. the racist remark is beneath you, it simply shows a lack of ability to argue your point and is a favorite tactic of those from the left, when all else fails label your opponent or abuse him
(Frog, will you let this past the censor?)
August 16th, 2007 at 9:22 am
JH:
I don’t know what the solutions to the problems facing aborigines in Australia are. I do know that they won’t be solved any time soon, given the attitudes of a large proportion of white Australians.
It is interesting to compare racism in New Zealand and Australia. I’ve lived in both places, and can confirm that racism is alive and well in New Zealand, as well as Australia. The difference seems to be that racism is so deeply ingrained in Australian society, that many people do not realise its extent (or that it even exists).
The “stolen generations” is an example of how racism presents itself in Australia, under the guise of assimilation. Many of the welfare workers, police etc who were responsible for removing aboriginal children from their families in the mid twentieth century feel that they were doing what was best for the children. They thought (and still think) the children would be better off in a “nice” middle class white family, away from the “negative” conditions they were born into. I can see this current child abuse issue resulting in a new “stolen generation”. I can see children being removed from their families, because they are considered “unsafe” with them. At first, this may be justified, but given Australia’s history, I can see it rapidly becoming a policy of “remove first, ask questions later”.
August 16th, 2007 at 11:49 am
The stolen generation thing seems to be miss spent paternalism, but I’m just framing things as I see them, Toad’s solutions are waffle. Our modern industrial society is tough on the individual, but I think we can make big improvements, especially if we factor a dollar value on a healthy society, lovely urban and physical environment etc. I think what seperates people like me from Toad, Sue B, PolPot etc, is they (I assume) want to smash the system (see good and bad) whereas I just see processes and want to reform from within [I think
]
August 16th, 2007 at 12:27 pm
“Once you have put an end to child abuse you can worry about whose culture you have allegedly offended.”
The moot point is whether going in boots and all will end child abuse. I have a feeling you wouldn’t be so keen on having Saudi Arabia invade NZ with the justification that enforcing a strict Wahabi morality is necessary to deal with NZers shocking culture of abuse.
August 16th, 2007 at 5:14 pm
This thing with the abbo’s makes me wonder how we would have behaved if Eve hadn’t eaten the Apple, maybe God knew that if we weren’t kept busy we would get up to all sorts of mischief.
]
[I assume we’re de-sexed when we go to heaven
jh
August 16th, 2007 at 6:30 pm
Sam
NZ does not have a child abuse problem, Maori have a child abuse problem.
Until now they have done nothing about it and in reality they will continue to do nothing about it.
Maori will march in their thousands in support of the seabed and foreshore legislation yet they remain strangely silent on the issue if child abuse.
August 16th, 2007 at 7:32 pm
big bro
Thats bullshite BB. Maori are overrepresented sure, but its not just a Maori problem. They consist of only 60% of child abuse cases and that leaves um, you know. A whole 40% of it being someone elses problem. You would be right if it were say 80-90% Maori, but its not. Obviously.
They’re dealing with the problem internally, which is as should be. Its a really personal issue to deal with. I wish people would just leave them in peace.
August 17th, 2007 at 8:09 am
However Maori have to deal with things as they are Sleepy. Thier leaders tell them that only one way works for them (tribalism), and they act as though they live tribally when they don’t. If they lived tribally many would have been given swift justice for their transgressions. They are also told they are sick (colonialism) and that they are owners of Aotearoa > best to know where you really stand, and start from there.
jh
August 17th, 2007 at 10:55 am
Saw some figures for child murders the other day which said two thirds of deaths were in Pakeha families. That makes Maori over-represented, but hardly lets Pakeha off the hook. Haven’t seen any figures for ethnicity of paedophiles, but there’s been some pretty high profile cases involving Pakeha. To say “NZ does not have a child abuse problem” is, frankly, idiotic.
August 17th, 2007 at 1:12 pm
Guys
This has little to do with ethnicity, directly/indirectly and everything to do with family stability. The odds of a child being slain by a parent are IIRC some 50 to 60 TIMES higher for step-parents than for biological parents. This is across the board, across every culture, throughout the planet.
I won’t connect any dots here. I am just pointing out the root of the problem is a genetic bias to support ones own children AT THE EXPENSE OF ALL OTHERS. It’s there. We don’t deal with it well. It doesn’t mean that all step-parents are evil either, plenty of good ones, but that child murder statistic should stop the silliness of simply blaming an ethnic group or culture.
respectfully
BJ
August 17th, 2007 at 7:00 pm
Sleepy
So when 15% of the population cause 60% of the problem you don’t think that is a cause for alarm?
And as for “Maori dealing with the problem internally” I can only assume that was not a serious comment, if there is one thing that Maori have shown it is that they cannot deal with the problem.
Sam
You raise some interesting points, I note that you have once again avoided the real issue by attempting to shift the spotlight elsewhere but that is nothing new.
Lets say your figures are correct (I do doubt that but for the sake of the argument I will assume they are genuine) and that European are the main offenders when is comes to Pedophilia, please show me one example (just one) when the offender or members of his family or race defended the mans actions and blamed events of 150 years ago for the offending.
August 18th, 2007 at 2:28 pm
Since we have now got off the topic of Hone’s walkabout and on to the possible reasons for child abuse in NZ and Australia, has anyone considered that perhaps the violent nature of New Zealand society may be related to the fact that the economies of both countries are based on violence, namely the “colonisation”, exploitation, mutilation, slaughter, dismemberment and export of sentient beings or their body fluids?
August 18th, 2007 at 2:55 pm
One could argue human civilization is based on violence.
So that doesn’t explain the Maori problem. And it is a Maori problem - pretending to live as a tribe when people don’t is central to the problem.
August 18th, 2007 at 2:56 pm
PS: Maori were, of course, never violent before Europeans arrived.
August 18th, 2007 at 3:19 pm
Has kiore1 considered that perhaps the violent nature of New Zealand society may be related to the fact that the pre-colonial regional economies of this country were based on violence, namely the “colonisationâ€?, exploitation, mutilation, slaughter, dismemberment and export of human beings? And that the Swedes have had a bit longer to “get over” their Viking tendencies.
August 18th, 2007 at 3:29 pm
PEL, Child abuse is a Maori problem and the road toll is a youth problem!
Oh..and the middle east is an Israeli problem. How many other problems can we “solve” before teatime?
August 18th, 2007 at 5:22 pm
Kiore
Are you serious?, because the white man came here all those years ago it is his fault?
I suppose the way to stop this child abuse (and other shockingly high Maori crime stats) would be…….More handouts?
August 18th, 2007 at 5:48 pm
Kev
Here are my thoughts on the matter.
Bringing up children is a very difficult thing to do, in isolation. All cultures have relied on community involvement in the raising of children - the burden is shared.
The Maori problem comes from the a rather sudden move from community to isolation. The culture has failed to adapt, particularly to isolated living arrangements. The isolating effect of welfare and poverty don’t help, either.
The solution lies in the culture adapting community to modern, atomised life. Or, the alternative is to live in traditional communities.
The answer isn’t to live a modern, atomised life whilst pretending to live in a community.
August 18th, 2007 at 8:58 pm
PEL, Good arguments especially since this seems to have occured widely in Europe in the ’60s and ’70s when tower blocks replaced terraced “slums”. The reversal of that ghastly mistake in recent decades seems to be coincident with significant reductions in child abuse.
August 18th, 2007 at 9:42 pm
I think welfare is also a credible theory since people who have children knowing that their welfare will depend on their own shoulders will have more commitment to them, as will couples who marry. In addition going to work gives a person a bit of moral fibre.. Some of those people, like the Kahuis, probably do nothing but follow their lowest urges…(?)
August 18th, 2007 at 10:56 pm
Various people are attributing child abuse to race, culture, and the effect of colonisation on the indigenous peoples of Australia and New Zealand.
I will not comment on these, since I am not an expert. However, personally, I notice a couple of common traits that seem to go hand in hand with family violence: poverty and alcohol (and also drugs). Has anyone else noticed this, or am I just missing something obvious? I might just entertain the possibility that certain people have a genetic predisposition to alcoholism, but really, I don’t think race or culture has anything to do with child abuse (and incidentally, I don’t think the effect of colonisation has an effect, except as far as the indigenous people have been left with a much smaller share of the economic “pie” as a result of colonisation).
Now here is something that others might disagree with. I have just said that I don’t believe culture has much to do with child abuse. But if it does, I would not be surprised if the palangi nuclear family structure is more susceptible to violence. How many palangi parents have extended families who can help with looking after the kids on a regular basis? As all parents know, there are times when just getting away from the kids for a few hours can make a world of difference. Having aunties, grandparents, cousins or whoever to look after the kids for a while is just so much better than living in an isolated nuclear family. Well, thats just my personal opinion.
August 21st, 2007 at 9:42 am
Apparently William Colenso grumbled a lot about Maori treating their kids too well, and consequently gave a sermon on the theme “to spare the rod is to spoil the child”.
“please show me one example (just one) when the offender or members of his family or race defended the mans actions and blamed events of 150 years ago for the offending.”
Never heard of such a case, by Pakeha or anyone else. Colonialism isn’t something that suddenly happened 150 years ago and then stopped, it has continued ever since.
As for me avoiding the issue, I stated that Maori were over-represented in child murder stats - is this avoiding the issue? I just don’t intend to hand out solutions to Maori in a brief blog comment. It’s easy enough to do this when your solution is “send in the marines”, but not so easy if your concern is fixing things, rather than merely looking like a “strong leader”.
August 21st, 2007 at 12:35 pm
quite so fwwog, if the farmer see some crook chicken in the hen house it a good idea to go across and check the neighbour out, I told them over at farra kiwiblog that heather roy went missing in action for months and even I couldn’t find her,
August 21st, 2007 at 1:06 pm
big bro
“Are you serious?, because the white man came here all those years ago it is his fault?”
No that is not what I wrote. It is what you want me to believe. How about you take a deep breath and read my posting again more carefully. What I am saying is that violence begets violence. There is a great deal of evidence to support the theory that animal abuse leads to human abuse. The SPCA and the police have an agreement to report cases of abuse to each other because they are aware of the llink. It therefore does not stretch credibility to infer that an economy that is basically relient on the violent deaths and suffering of sentient and defenceless creatures will lead to a society where the violent deaths and suffering of defenceless creatures is considered acceptable.
Kevyn seems to understand the link very well, and he could very well be correct in his analysis, if his premises are true, which I don’t know enough about to comment on.
August 21st, 2007 at 3:04 pm
All cultures have been built on farming and agriculture.
Not all cultures kill their children at this rate, including the non-Maori population in this country.
Therefore, child abuse, as a direct result of farming in this country, is….