Don’s gone - but not before lunchtime
National Party Leader Don Brash is gone. For those of you who have missed the news, just after lunchtime - at 1pm today - Don announced he would step down from the party’s leadership.
Did he jump - or was he pushed?
It was something he’d been thinking about for a couple of weeks, he claimed. And in fact it was something he’d said he would do if he lost the last election.
Ahhhh, I believe that as much as I believed Don when he said he didn’t know who was behind the anti-Green pamphlets.
One thing is for sure, there’ll be a fair amount of snarling, scratching and fighting in the National Party caucus over who’ll be stepping into Don’s shoes.
The biggest winner out of this seems to be Nicky Hager, whose latest book, has received unprecedented press, even before it hits the stores, thanks to Don’s injunction and now Don’s political defunct(ion).
November 23rd, 2006 at 4:51 pm
I think we’ll soon find out about the pamphlets. This book is proving to be quite the bombshell.
November 23rd, 2006 at 8:53 pm
Can anybody tell me what is wrong with the Brethren exercising their democratic right to campaign against a party they do not like?
It sickens me that any group in NZ is subject to such disgusting attacks from this government.
If the Nats or any other right wing party attacked a minority the left would be up in arms.
And Ben, i doubt the book has anything to so with Dr Brash resigning, NOBODY takes anything Hauger says seriously anyway.
November 23rd, 2006 at 9:13 pm
Big Bruv - you’re sounding a bit shrill today. Things not going your way
“doubt the book has anything to so with Dr Brash resigning”
If nothing else it was the Brash handling of the book that was the final straw.
And the point about the pamphlets is not so much about the Brethren themselves s this point but what did Brash know or not know and when did he know or not know.
That, IMHO, is the point and the reason the old has made way for the new.
November 23rd, 2006 at 9:31 pm
benw
Not at all, I wanted Dr Brash to go, he is a throughly decent man who in many ways was to good for politics.
This is great news for the Nats, under John Key they will only go further ahead in the polls, all they need now to ensure victory is for Klarke to invite Sue Bradford into the cabinet.
The party with the biggest problem at the moment is the Greens, Klarke has suddenly woken up to the Green vote and has basically stolen that support base out from underneath them, with Labour now pandering to the Green vote where does the Green party go now?……intorducing another bill trying to legalize the use of Cannabis is not gong to win them any votes at all, i would have thought they had learnt that by now.
November 23rd, 2006 at 9:33 pm
benw
So what if Brash was aware about the paphlets, it does not matter at all.
Are you suggesting it is ok to persecute the Bretheren?
November 23rd, 2006 at 9:50 pm
Actually I welcome any open and honest involvement in political discourse, in fact that is why I use my real name in these types of discussions and don’t hide behind a fake persona. You should try it some time.
And yes it does matter if Brash lied (or not); that’s kinda the whole point. You are right that it matters less now that he is out :-).
And no - there isn’t some rush for the exits in the Green Party, in fact it seems to be getting more funding and support from its base than it ever has. Who would have thought, not you I guess.
Regarding the Bretheren, no, I don’t think it is ok to persecute anyone based on their beliefs. However I would prefer if they (and anyone else) were open about their involvement in these types of smear campaigns. I would also prefer if there were spending limits on all third parties (Union, Environmental, Business, Religious or whatever) with the goal to be to avoid NZ ending up in a similar situation in the US now where democracy has become the play thing of the rich.
November 23rd, 2006 at 9:53 pm
um bruvver, I doubt anyone is going to take anything you say seriously if you keep making such strongly definitive statements that are patently untrue.
Lots of people take what Nicky Hager says seriously, such as, his friends and family, his various publishers, John Campbell, loads of people I know, i.e. young urban professional Green-Labour voters, and even a former National MP who is now a university professor:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/sundaystartimes/0,2106,3868242a6005,00.ht ml
“Nicky’s approach is thorough … He handles a great deal of material very competently … this work meets some high academic standards … I would expect to see much of the evidence set out in the book reported to the Electoral Commission, Parliamentary Services, the police and the Auditor-General … Nicky’s book is so important … I thank Nicky Hager for his courage and extraordinary hard work.” - Marilyn Waring
November 23rd, 2006 at 10:01 pm
Dr. Brash spoke really well on Campbell Live. He never looked that comfortable to me before.
A bit like how Al Gore used to be a block of wood till he left politics.
November 23rd, 2006 at 11:59 pm
As an IT professional, I’m uneasy about the source of the e-mails.
It’s one thing for people close to a politician, who are in his confidence, to decide that the public interest is more important than that relationship of confidence, and to blow the whistle… this is what Hager implies happened.
But if it turns out that it’s a technician who had access to the mail server, or Brash’s computer, for example, and made a copy of the mails (and if there are indeed thousands of mails, this seems likely), then there are other ethical issues involved. It would make it a matter of espionage, or of theft, as Brash claims.
But I don’t let my moral scruples get in the way of my joy at seeing him hung out to dry.
November 24th, 2006 at 12:02 am
Though in a way I’m sorry to see Brash go, I tend to agree with Big Bro :
This is great news for the Nats, under John Key they will only go further ahead in the polls
… depending on how Key comes through in Hager’s book, of course!
Anyone know how I could order a copy from overseas?
November 24th, 2006 at 7:56 am
Stuey
You do your argument no good by using Comrade Campbell as an example of those who take Hauger seriously.
November 24th, 2006 at 8:48 am
…and you, big bruv do your argument no good by using outdated Cold War epithets in place of real thought.
November 24th, 2006 at 9:33 am
Big Bruv said:
The party with the biggest problem at the moment is the Greens, Klarke has suddenly woken up to the Green vote and has basically stolen that support base out from underneath them, with Labour now pandering to the Green vote where does the Green party go now?
So why are the polls tracking up for the Green and tracking down for Labour, Big Bruv? I credit voters concerned about sustainability with the sense to see Labour’s new-found position on climate change for the sham that it is - all talk and no action.
My analysis is that the party with the biggest problem at the moment is Labour. By positioning itself with NZ First and United Future, Labour is already losing voters who support sustainability and/or socialism to the Greens. Despite its debacles over the pledge card and Taito Phillip Field, Labour has managed to hold most of its centre vote to date because many centrist voters find the racism and hard right economics of Brash too unpleasant to stomach. Most of National’s gain in the polls over the last few months has been at the expense of NZ First and United Future, not Labour. Key isn’t perceived as the hard right idealogue that Brash is (at least yet), so the danger for Labour is that it could now find itself leaking votes in one direction to the Greens and in the other to National. Positioning itself further in either direction to counter this will only increase the loss of votes in the other direction.
November 24th, 2006 at 9:36 am
If nobody took Nicky Hager seriously, then his scoop wouldn’t be all over National’s billboards, would it?
And while Donny resigning may be positive for the National Part, it certainly is positive for New Zealand. How did a man who is to the right of 95% of New Zealanders nearly become Prime Minister?
November 24th, 2006 at 9:49 am
Delapsus resurgam! When I fall I shall rise!
November 24th, 2006 at 10:58 am
Toad
I would have thought you of all people would not play the race card, people who do that often have no real argument and use it as weapon of last resort, you are better than that.
Please tell me what you find in Nationals policy that is racist?
November 24th, 2006 at 11:36 am
Big Bruv said:
I would have thought you of all people would not play the race card…
1) I have no reason to play the race card or any other card against Brash - in case you haven’t noticed, he’s GONE, so despite my dislike of his politics, there’s no political purpose.
2) I didn’t play the race card - Brash did. “He [Justice David Baragwananth] continues to talk as if the Maori remain a distinct indigenous people. There are clearly many NZers who do see themselves as distinctly and distinctively Maori - but it is also clear there are few, if any, fully Maori left here. There has been a lot of intermarriage and that has been welcome.” - Don Brash, reported in the Herald on Sunday 24/09/06. A non-Maori questioning the cultural and ethnic identity of Maori, and relying on the blood quantum argument is about as racist as you can get imo. This was the sort of thinking that led to the race classification system under apartheid South Africa. It’s not often that I agree with Winston Peters, but when he described these comments by Brash as “evil” I don’t think he was far off the mark.
November 24th, 2006 at 11:54 am
Dr Dunny Brush said:
Delapsus resurgam! When I fall I shall rise!
Very revealing of your personality indeed, Dunny!!!
The line comes from a 10CC song from about 30 years ago called I Wanna Rule the World. The full lyrics are here.
November 24th, 2006 at 11:54 am
Toad
There is nothing in that statement from Brash that is false, many seem to have a problem with the truth, how you or anybody can take that as a racist statement is unbelievable.
We already have a race classification system in NZ, it amazes me that so many people chose to ignore this.
The Maori parliamentary seats are a classic example of this, why not seats reserved for Asian or Kiwi’s of European heritage?
Brash was right when he pushed for one law for all, those who think we should have special rights or laws for one race in NZ are the ones who support apartheid.
And as for Winston, come on!…he jumps on any bandwagon that suits, have you forgotten his disgusting attacks on Asian immigrants? I cannot see how any intelligent person can take anything Winston says seriously, the fact that our pathetic media let him get away with it only makes it worse.
Unless we as a nation do something about the growing tension between Maori and non Maori we are headed down a slippery path, there is still time for us to come together as a nation but we need to move fast on this, giving special rights and privileges to one sector is not the way to do it.
November 24th, 2006 at 12:00 pm
“I would also prefer if there were spending limits on all third parties (Union, Environmental, Business, Religious or whatever) with the goal to be to avoid NZ ending up in a similar situation in the US now where democracy has become the play thing of the rich. ”
I agree that if the brethren(or anyone else) wants to play politics, they should be upfront about who they are, and what they are about. Likewise Brash should be upfront about who he is dealing with.
However, the big problem in democracy isn’t spending limits, or lack of them. The big issue is that once you’ve decided to let the capitalists run the economy, you inevitably have to run policies that suit them - particularly in a globalised world where you need to create an environment that will attract business and investment which will go wherever the best deal is being offered. If you are a rich capitalist, you don’t need shady deals, backhanders or expensive campaigns to skew democracy, the free market does it all for you.
November 24th, 2006 at 12:08 pm
“Brash was right when he pushed for one law for all, those who think we should have special rights or laws for one race in NZ are the ones who support apartheid.”
Damn right! How come Pakeha get to institute their language, their legal system, and their system of government? Effectively, legislation has forced everyone in this country to embrace the traditions of one particular race whether they like it or not.
We should have one law for everyone - written in New Zealand’s own language and based on Maori tikanga without kow-towing to immigrants that come here and then refuse to fit in.
November 24th, 2006 at 12:09 pm
Sam
We have the socialists running NZ right now and shady deals, corruption and backhand deals are running rife….what is the difference?
November 24th, 2006 at 12:15 pm
Big Bruv said:
We already have a race classification system in NZ, it amazes me that so many people chose to ignore this. The Maori parliamentary seats are a classic example of this…
No we don’t. People enrol on the Maori roll because they themselves identify as Maori. It’s people asserting their own cultural identity - not the State or Dr Brash or anyone else determining it for them on the basis of blood quantum or any other arbitrary criteria.
If no-one enrolled on the Maori roll, the Maori roll would cease to exist. But the fact that large numbers of Maori do enrol on the Maori roll is evidence that Maori want to retain it. Dr Brash would have denied them that one remaining vestige of their self-determination by legislating, against the wishes of Maori, to abolish it.
November 24th, 2006 at 12:18 pm
Sam Buchanan Says:
November 24th, 2006 at 12:08 pm
“Brash was right when he pushed for one law for all, those who think we should have special rights or laws for one race in NZ are the ones who support apartheid.�
Damn right! How come Pakeha get to institute their language, their legal system, and their system of government? Effectively, legislation has forced everyone in this country to embrace the traditions of one particular race whether they like it or not.
We should have one law for everyone - written in New Zealand’s own language and based on Maori tikanga without kow-towing to immigrants that come here and then refuse to fit in.
Sam
Are you serious or is that post a wind up?
We already have laws that are perfectly suited to everybody in NZ, all that needs to happen is for them to be applied to EVERYBODY irrespective of race.
Assuming that you were being serious I need to ask you why you find it acceptable to force the traditions of another race on people like me when you find it so abhorrent when it is forced on maori.
But in answer to your question….its called democracy.
November 24th, 2006 at 12:23 pm
Toad
It does not matter how you justify the maori seats the fact remains that they are reserved solely for one race of people, that is a form of apartheid and cannot be defended in any way.
If I wanted to assert my cultural identity then where is my opportunity to vote for a seat in the house reserved solely for Kiwi’s of European heritage?
November 24th, 2006 at 12:39 pm
Big Bruv said:
Sam Are you serious or is that post a wind up?
Big Bruv, that you can even think Sam’s post might have been a wind-up makes me think you see the world as Alistair described Don Brash as seeing it on another thread. You see it as it appears from your front door - looking in.
The issue is not just one of people asserting their cultural identity. It’s also about the status and right to self-determination of Maori as tangata whenua or indigenous people, and about the fact that Te Tiriti o Waitangi gives you, me, and other non-Maori New Zealanders the right to live alongside Maori in this country.
November 24th, 2006 at 12:58 pm
Don Brash, who cares, even if he is a nice bloke in private. He has done nothing to help the ordinary bloke.or the nation. We need some-one with leadership passion for NZ.
November 24th, 2006 at 1:25 pm
Friends,
To argue with the likes of big (aryan) bruv is to do yourselves a disservice. I understand the Green insistence on inclusivity and I firmly agree.
However I can’t help feeling that there is also a place for forcible indoctrination for some of our less fortunate sentients.
JUST SIT IN THE F*&^N CORNER AND READ SOME HISTORY, ETHICS AND POLITICS YOU POOR LOST SOUL.
If, after that, they still fail to grasp the logic and the reason, then I guess we’ll have to get Darwinian on their asses…
Life is too short for lazy thinking…
November 24th, 2006 at 1:28 pm
…on the topic of the US electoral system, and because its friday…
type “failure” into google. click “i’m feeling lucky”.
if you’re over 50 you may wish to use the bathroom 1st…
as you were.
November 24th, 2006 at 1:39 pm
“written in New Zealand’s own language and based on Maori tikanga without kow-towing to immigrants that come here and then refuse to fit in”
If everyone voted for it, then fine. But they don’t. Meanwhile, we have one rule for some and another rule for others. Brash was stating a fact.
Anyway, why weren’t those on the left quick to defend the right of free speech of the Brethren? Don’t agree with them myself, but they have a right to free speech. What would the reaction of the left be if the right kept banging on about Maori funding of the Labour party as if it were some vast-left wing conspiracy?
“Self-determination”. What does that mean? Could someone please dumb that down for me.
I think it’s great that Key will lead. That will put an end to Labour in 2008, and NZ can get back on the road to economic prosperity.
November 24th, 2006 at 2:00 pm
Smokey
Your post is exactly what I mean when I say that those who cannot compile an argument resort to abuse.
I assume you have no reasonable argument.
November 24th, 2006 at 2:05 pm
That’s right Peter, stupid of us to forget.
Tis all about that shiny goshdarned economic prosperity. Daddy always needs a new set of golf-clubs and Mummy, well Mummy’ll wear a headscarf and do what she’s told.
And those pesky indigenous types need to wake up and smell the McDonalds…and the P…and the pokies…and the gang-culture…and all the other things that distract them from their disenfranchising in the land of their ancestors.
There can be no doubt that Key is the key…I’m sure he won’t disappoint his fans…
November 24th, 2006 at 2:09 pm
Toad
That is just what I want in my country, the right to live alongside everybody else not under one particular race.
When we stop pandering to maori racists (through some misguided guilt complex) we can start to move forward as a nation, the very idea as put forward by Smokey (who frankly sounds like an idiot) of forced indoctrination will achieve nothing, life is far to short for politically correct rubbish.
We can waste a generation moaning about what happened 200 years ago or we can move on as a nation, this country is as much mine as it is anybody else’s.
November 24th, 2006 at 2:12 pm
Smokey
And those pesky indigenous types need to wake up and smell the McDonalds…and the P…and the pokies…and the gang-culture…and all the other things that distract them from their disenfranchising in the land of their ancestors.
Would I be safe in assuming that all this is the fault of the white man?
November 24th, 2006 at 2:36 pm
Bruv,
One man’s idiot is another man’s guitar tuner…
My problem is that I don’t have the patience anymore. And because the pace of change is frighteningly slow, and destined to be terminally slow if certain attitudes are not actively challenged and even mocked, I choose to try and shame you into reconsidering your position.
If I have to convince you that ANY colonialised country’s indigenous populations deserve certain accommodations - or if you can’t/won’t admit that the history of your preferred ideology (straight white greedy men) is seriously flawed, then I don’t think I know where to start.
So I’ll SHOUT a bit…and rant accusingly at times…..and even make sense occasionally…but none of its really for your benefit - it just makes me feel better - it’s cathartic.
And by the way, you do live under one particular race, can you figure out which one?
November 24th, 2006 at 2:44 pm
Smokey
You don’t have the patience for what?…please tell me how things would be in your world, would these “accommodations” mean that there are different laws for different races?….that is apartheid in my book, the same apartheid I fought against in the 80’s.
All I seem to be getting from you so far is abuse and possibly excuses for P, pokies, gang culture and McDonald’s, the very idea that the reason for this appalling behaviour is because they are “disenfranchised” is quite frankly insulting to maori.
November 24th, 2006 at 3:03 pm
In my world..? Empathy and love abound…sharing is cool and so is the beer…
C’mon now…just because something purports to explain, that in no way automatically implies that it excuses…I think it’s called cultural imperialism bruv…they’ve had to fight their way out of it while your lot got comfy…appalling behaviour it may be, buts the roots go way back bruv..way back.
And its not particularly unusual, just ask the abo’s and the innuit and the mayans and the cherokee et al. The trick now is to fess up and spread the wealth and education around a bit more eh?
Its not apartheid if both sides agree to it is it? That could happen…one day…its happened elsewhere…
Cos it’s not the 80’s anymore bruv…the cat’s out of the bag and everyone is chasing pussy…
These ramblings are all designed to keep you busy so you have less time to indoctrinate the children…
I’m appalling I know…time for more beer.
November 24th, 2006 at 3:13 pm
Smokey
Have you ever seriously considered that your views are racist?, you seem to be implying that maori are not able to rise above the problems they have as they are not able to deal with some mythical attachment to the land, the sooner we stop making excuses the better.
As usual you introduce evidence to support your claim that has nothing to do with NZ, the problems that the Abo’s and the innuit have has nothing to do with the issues here in NZ.
Both sides would never agree with it (apartheid) Smokey, the maori members of my family are dead against it for a start off, or are you suggesting that their opinions are not relevant?
And don’t worry about your ramblings Smokey, the kids are at school so i have plenty of time to educate you and show you the error of your ways.
I must admit that once they come home I am fairly busy, it is not easy when you have to balance all the PC bullshit they learn at school with a dose of reality or fact.
November 24th, 2006 at 4:05 pm
I come from the dispossessed. If you look at European history, you’ll find power and control has nothing to do with being white skinned, it’s all about the cash.
The difference is that my family didn’t blame anyone for their dire and unfair circumstances. Nor were they waiting round for the injustices of the past, for there were many, to magically right themselves.
They moved on. Within one generation, they went from poor peasants not speaking the language to millionaires. No one gave them a damn thing.
The strong survive and prosper. The weak complain.
November 24th, 2006 at 4:15 pm
>>from their disenfranchising in the land of their ancestors.
Pffttt.
Perhaps they should just give Europe back to the Romans and the oppressed will rise from their stupor…
November 24th, 2006 at 4:20 pm
“Are you serious or is that post a wind up?”
Both - It’s a serious wind-up. What I’m asking is, if you think we need one law for all, why should it not be law as defined by Maori?
Personally, I’m not so keen on a single NZ state - I’m in favour of considerable local autonomy so that communities can make their own decisions about how they want to run themselves, and can tell other people to mind their own business. For example, If the Brethren want to run their communities according to their own traditions, let them. All I ask is that they don’t intefere in my community and let anybody who wants to leave the brethren lifestyle do so..
“We already have laws that are perfectly suited to everybody in NZ”
Really? Suited to everybody? Who decided that? The Seabed and Foreshore Act didn’t seem to suit a lot of Maori.
“Assuming that you were being serious I need to ask you why you find it acceptable to force the traditions of another race on people like me when you find it so abhorrent when it is forced on maori.”
I agree with you there, I don’t seriously want to force a tradition on anybody. Do you then agree that Maori shouldn’t have the traditions of another race forced on them?
“But in answer to your question….its called democracy.”
Don’t recall Maori ever voting for a government based on Pakeha tradition. It was forced on them by such measures as the invasion of the Waikato, the attacks on Parihaka and Maungapohatu, the wars in Taranaki, et al. Continued attempts to form their own structures for governance through the King movement, Kotahitanga movement etc. were ignored or undermined.
By the way, I tend to agree with you about the Maori seats. In my personal opinion, Maori would be better off without them - I suspect they help keep Maori concerns marginalised, but given my disinterest in electoral politics I don’t care much.
Have you considered a 12-volt system for your new house? I’m no expert on such things, but somebody was telling me recently about a house fitted out this way and it seems quite efficent, especially if you want to get off the grid entirely. There’s lots of appliances designed for caravans etc. that run on it. I lived in very comfy DOC hut for a summer that had everything on gas or 12 volt and it worked fine.
November 24th, 2006 at 4:26 pm
Darn, given Brash’s ability to offend large numbers of people all at once, I would have been happy for him to stay as leader and keep National out of power.
On the other hand it will be pleasant to see a National party leader who doesn’t think that we can turn back the clock to some mythical 1950s/1960s colorblind New Zealand.
November 24th, 2006 at 9:51 pm
Big Bruv asked:
‘Are you suggesting it is ok to persecute the Bretheren?’
It’s not okay to persecute individuals for being members of the exclusive brethren, just like it’s not okay for members of the exclusive brethren to persecute people for leaving the sect.
It is, however, perfectly reasonable to criticise the particular Exclusive Brethren members who were involved in producing and distributing the pamphlets. The pamphlet about the Green Party included thirteen statements about Green Party policy, twelve of which were incorrect. If it were one out of thirteen incorrect I could believe it was an honest mistake, but twelve out of thirteen is clear evidence of an intent to decieve (or, in biblical terms, ‘bear false witness against thy neighbour’).
If an advertisement for a product or service were so blatantly libellious, the advertisinc standards authority would come down very strongly on whoever put it out.
November 24th, 2006 at 10:30 pm
I am no fan of George Bush, but I have to admire that the guy actually puts photographs of himself in jeans on the WH website. How many world leaders do that?
November 25th, 2006 at 8:55 am
kahikatea
Telling blatant lies is not restricted to the EB, I have no time for their religion, in fact I have no time for any religion but I will defend their right to worship what ever the hell they like and for them to try an influence any political party as that is their right.
This corrupt government (supported by the Greens to their eternal shame) have told more lies than the EB would in 100 years.
November 25th, 2006 at 2:57 pm
Please, please
can everyone stop feeding the trolls?