Out with the old, in with Matariki?
I’ m interested to hear what people think of Metiria’s proposal that we should stop celebrating Guy Fawkes in New Zealand and let off fireworks at Matariki instead. I think it’s a fantastic idea. There aren’t enough fun things to look forward to in winter, and a big Matariki celebration (and public holiday!) would be excellent. Plus it’s something unique to Aotearoa.
Bookmark to:
October 19th, 2006 at 3:02 pm
Works for me. I sure am not about to celebrate the 4th of July anymore.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/10/18/85915/109
Be nice to simply celebrate without having a tie-in to someone who didn’t even manage to get his rockets off. (Ouch!) … and would be a reasonable thing to help to tie us together as Kiwis.
respectfully
BJ
I dunno Frog… its hard to comment on stuff like this. Seems too obviously a good idea.
ciao
BJ
October 19th, 2006 at 3:43 pm
It would be good to have another public holiday in winter; we don’t have many of those. For fireworks, other seasons might be more practical due to better weather.
I always enjoyed Guy Fawkes day as a child, but now question the morality of burning effigies of the fellow on bonfires - most impolite.
October 19th, 2006 at 3:45 pm
Out with Guy Fawkes. Person has no relevence and the fires are a danger in summer.
Mid Winter Solstice is good too. Generally a good idea. Joy.
October 19th, 2006 at 3:48 pm
Think moving fireworks from Guy Fawkes Day to Matariki is an excellent idea. Not only is the fire risk much lower at that time of the year, but it gets dark earlier, so not the same problem with tired young children staying up late for fireworks when there’s school the next day.
Not so sure about making Matariki a public holiday though. New Zealand is among the countries with the fewest public holidays in the world - even the United States of Bushland has more! So, an extra public holiday, yes!
But I’d like it to be Mondayised and split the long dreary period between Queen’s Birthday and Labour Day. Matariki, like Easter, moves around in the calendar year according to the moon. It’s usually quite close to Queen’s Birthday (this year was an exception, when it was 3 weeks later), and in some cases can fall on Queen’s Birthday, in which case there would be no extra holiday at all. It will also often fall on a weekend, and that wouldn’t give most people an extra holiday either.
October 19th, 2006 at 4:14 pm
Couldn’t we have both? I quite like Guy Fawks. It’s probably the most bizaare celebration we have.
October 19th, 2006 at 5:08 pm
I agree with “not here”. In the sense that I’d like more fun holidays that tie us to our cultures. That includes our old Celtic/Norman etc traditions, which I know almost nothing about. I like the link that Guy Fawkes’ day makes with our crazy English past - helps remind us about where a lot of us came from. We could think up some special Kiwi days, like a Pavlova day or something, not necessarily public holidays.
In general, I think that there should be more street parties around the place. Our streets are boring, grey expanses filled with vehicles. I’d like them to be more lively, in an appropriate, safe way.
October 19th, 2006 at 7:48 pm
No way!..Guy Fawkes night is part of MY culture, as a fifth generation New Zealander of British decent I am against any move to lessen the importance of this celebration.
If Maori want to let of fire works at some other time of the year then all well and good but I do not want somebody telling me that MY culture is not important just because it is non Maori.
It amazes me that so many in NZ fall over themselves to embrace all things Maori yet feel quite comfortable telling me that my culture is something that I should forget or disregard.
October 19th, 2006 at 8:07 pm
I’ve always liked Guy Fawkes’ Day because of the inherent subversive history behind the festival. And the fireworks are thrilling to watch - albeit dangerous in the hands of drunks and children (by the same token we should ban cars).
I do already celebrate Matariki and love they way it celebrates the stars, seasons and human and natural history in this part of the planet. So I agree with ‘not here’ who suggests we should adopt both Matariki and Guy Fawkes as national festivals.
That would be a good way to reflect the equal partnership of Te Tiriti.
October 19th, 2006 at 8:09 pm
Guy Fawkes Day is also Parihaka day - we should celebrate that.
October 19th, 2006 at 10:28 pm
Make matariki and the day after a public holiday and a day to let off fire worksfor sure.Guy fawkes day should be changed to what it was original intened to punish politicians whe don’t like, so we all shot sky rockets (BIG ONES) at the beehive with prizes going to the person who shots it into helengrade offices and burns all here bananas.
October 19th, 2006 at 10:54 pm
What makes these events mutually exclusive? People letting off fireworks is a demonstration of celebration. I say let them off at Guy Fawkes’, Matariki, New Years, Chinese New Year, April First (Breadhead New Year and April Fools), Waitangi Day, birthdays, weddings, funerals, end of Ramadan, bar mitzvahs, baptisms, and when one is losing one’s virginity.
October 20th, 2006 at 10:16 am
The first time I felt any real regard for Rod Donald was when he made a strong call for fireworks to be kept legal. The creeping totalitarianism of the ‘ban everything’ brigade is one of the creepiest things about NZ politics (they should be taken off to Lewes in southern England to see what a real full-on traditional Guy Fawkes is like - they’d have heart attacks). I imagine most of the dickheads calling for fireworks to be banned had a wonderful time playing with them as kids, and want to make sure nobody else can share that experience.
I rather like Guy Fawkes myself, if only for the wackyness of NZers celebrating an attempt to blow up a parliament on the other side of the world 400 years ago. It’s interesting that every other British Colony has stopped celebrating it, and somebody needs to.
It’s really the only public festival we have - in which we get out and celebrate together - everything else is pretty much either just a day off or a commercial event about buying things. New Year is sort of a festival, though ‘public celebration of alcohol consumption’ is more accurate. On Waitangi Day we commemorate the day we lost our independence and on ANZAC day we remember losing a battle with Turkey. Neither really cut it as a reason to celebrate.
On the other hand, early November is the driest and windiest time of the year, at least in Wellington. Which does make Matariki seem a pretty good time to make a fireworks festival.
One of the problems with fireworks is that being only available for a short time people tend to go crazy with them. Countries where they are available all the time seem to have fewer problems. I was pleasantly stunned at the huge and wondrous things available in the UK, which make what you get here look like damp squibs.
The McGillicuddies celebrated Guy Fawkes by burning the Beehive in effigy. We did a burning at a primary school fair once - never seen kids look so happy!
October 20th, 2006 at 11:57 am
I reckon the cost of buying 2x as much stuff to blow up is probably reason enough to only have one… as would be apparent in time.
I don’t see any reason for there to be a ban on fireworks at other times.
respectfully
BJ
October 20th, 2006 at 12:19 pm
What the hell is matariki anyway and how is it relevant to me?
October 20th, 2006 at 12:58 pm
Celebration of the Winter Solstice? I can go with that….
October 20th, 2006 at 1:59 pm
Glad you asked, Big Bruv. This is from http://www.matariki.net.nz/
Matariki is a small but distinctive star cluster whose appearance in the north eastern pre-dawn sky in late May, early June marks the start of a new phase of life.
Although there are tribal differences regarding the timing, celebrations most often begin at the next new moon after Matariki has risen. As with similar ‘moveable feasts’ in the western calendar, such as Easter, the exact timing varies from year to year but usually occurs during the month of June.
In ancient times Matariki arrived at the end of the harvest and was therefore a time of plenty for our ancestors. The kumara and other root foods had been gathered. The migration of fish such as moki and korokoro also made Matariki a time of bountiful catches. Visitors were often showered with gifts of specially preserved eel, birds and other delicacies. Matariki was a time to share and present offerings to others.
Matariki can be translated in two ways – Mata Riki (Tiny eyes) and Mata Ariki (Eyes of God). Either way the eyes are thought to watch over the land and its people.
There’s more at: http://www.taitokerau.co.nz/matariki.htm
I guess its relevent to you because you live here. Much of our ceremony is made ridiculous by insisting on celebrating a winter festival in the middle of summer, and in this case, an Autumn/early winter festival with its bonfires et al. in Spring.
October 20th, 2006 at 2:38 pm
Thanks for that Sam, but I am still to be convinced that this “festival” is something that has any relevance to me as it has nothing to do with my culture.
October 20th, 2006 at 3:03 pm
Fair enough, you can celebrate what ever you like, it doesn’t really bother me, you might find a matariki festival fun, though. I reckon a kiwi harvest festival would be a great idea, especially the preserved eel.
As a Pakeha NZer, I find most of the festivals around don’t have much direct relevence to my culture, either.
For example, I celebrate Christmas as a family/friends/food event, rather than any interest in the birth of a prophet in pre-islamic Palestine, and have dropped most of the British traditions associated with it - we tend to eat mutton birds and stuffed vine leaves rather than roast goose (actually I guess the vine leaves are a bit Palestinian) and NZ’s celebrations of November 5th have precious little to do with the English tradition - not much burning of the Pope in effigy or the like.
In fact, last year when I wandered around Welllington on Guy Fawkes night dressed as Mr Fawkes, I was variously asked if I was a wizard, a quaker or a leprechaun! Nobody seemed to have a clue who this guy whose arrest they were commemorating actually was, which is a bit of a shame.
October 20th, 2006 at 3:53 pm
By the way, it’s not at all clear from Metiria’s press relaese that she is calling for firework sales to be continued. She just mentions a “public firework display” for matariki. Can she clarify that she hasn’t joined the wowsers?
October 20th, 2006 at 4:02 pm
Oh dear Sam!…it seems the PC brigade have well and truly got to you…there is nothing wrong or illegal (although I am sure some want to change this) in being a kiwi of European decent and as far as I am aware there is nothing illegal (yet) in being proud of your heritage.
October 20th, 2006 at 5:42 pm
No response to the Parihaka day comment. I am curious as to what people think.
October 20th, 2006 at 5:51 pm
Tammy - I am not from here, so I don’t know what Parihaka day is… Matariki I had heard of, but I was waiting for someone to post something that would let me understand. I have worn out my googles for the week
respectfully
BJ
October 20th, 2006 at 9:14 pm
bjchip said: I am not from here, so I don’t know what Parihaka day is… Matariki I had heard of, but I was waiting for someone to post something that would let me understand
Parihaka was a town near mt taranaki, inhabited by Maori who did not want the government to nick their land. On November 5, 1881, the government sent troops in to kidnap everyone, and took them down to Dunedin and kept them in caves to use as slave labour. It’s probably the worst human rights abuse by the government in New Zealand’s history. In recent years, a friend of mine has been organising poetry readings in old gun emplacements near Wellington to commemorate it (perhaps partly as a way of disowning her great great great grandfather, who ordered the siege).
I’m doubtful about it as an excuse to let off fireworks, however.
kahikatea
October 20th, 2006 at 10:34 pm
Excellent points, Sam Buchanan. The short timeframe that fireworks are available encourage people to go ballistic once they finally get hold of them, a bit like a wino on benefit day.
Another of Metiria’s hats includes the invisible drug reform portfolio. I presume her stance in this area follows the premise that loosening controls on popular substances tends to diminish overall harms.
October 21st, 2006 at 12:42 pm
Tammy91, I saw it and was looking for comments. It’s an absolutely great idea. We should celebrate something that is of significance to us and also of significance to the world as the first know instance of peaceful resistance. Gandhi made it famous but it happened here first.
Actually I always thought we celebrated guy fawkes having a go at blowing up the parliament and was quite perturbed at 12 or 13 when I found out we celebrated because he was caught.
So transforming nov 5 to a day we celebrate peaceful resistance against selfish government without conscience is an absolutely terrific idea. Thanks for being so clever! Keep them coming and hopefully the insights you offer will force the arguments away from this endless posturing.
October 21st, 2006 at 2:21 pm
zippy said..
“..Another of Metiria’s hats includes the invisible drug reform portfolio…”
how true..!
i could go on..but…
phil(whoar.co.nz)
October 22nd, 2006 at 5:45 pm
People in the North have been celebrating Matariki for a few years now. As well as Guy Fawkes. Fireworks haven’t been part of Matariki round here - you can’t buy them until November - but lots of food and music are. It’s more or less the equivalent of the northern New Year.
GF was always a bit problematic for me too - but I do like Tammy’s suggestion that it be celebrating the anti-unfair government impulse, not the capture and execution of a Catholic rebel.
October 22nd, 2006 at 7:53 pm
Anti-unfair? thats a double negative. anti/unfair might work.
Celebrating parihaka as a national event might actually bring some much needed morality and ethical conscience to our government. I’m all for making explosions and colourful bangs to remember the brave who resist unfairness.
October 23rd, 2006 at 12:04 am
Personally, I’d be honored to participate in the Maori New Years celebration, and think that all New Zealand should show it’s support for the traditions of our indigenous people by declaring it a public holiday (if that’s what Maori want).
The Guy Fawkes celebration has no significance to us any longer. We should be celebrating the traditions and cultures of our immediate family, friends and fellow New Zealanders. How does the Guy Fawkes celebration bring us closer, other than to get together to watch a load of expensive gunpowder go upin smoke? Celebrations should bring us closer through learning about one another and our ways of life.
We have a day off to celebrate our new year, why not for our maori brothers and sisters?
October 23rd, 2006 at 1:29 pm
Guy Fawkes is (sort of) a celebration of Justice and Democracy. Fawkes was a plotter in the Gun Pwder plot - which aimed to kill the English Monarch to force Catholicism on the English.
However, the police caught them before they were able to blow up the Palace of Westminister (where the Parliament was and is still held), Fawkes was burned at the stake and the Protestant movement flourished in Britain.
Matariki is the Maori New Year, when a constellation becomes visible on the northern horizon. The Japanese call the same constellation Subaru, so the next time a boy-racer in a Legacy whizzes by check out the badge on the front of his car.
As for Fireworks, ban them. (Sorry, I have two cats and sensitive ears.)
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:27 pm
Michael,
thanks for the Subaru-za/Matariki tip. interesting.
i have no idea what Guy Fawkes night is like in NZ these days, but this will be my first one in NZ for 10 years, so a chance to find out…
i loved GF night when i was a kid in the 70s, i counted down to the day the fireworks went on sale at the greengrocers, for months before. my poor cat!
October 23rd, 2006 at 5:06 pm
coming in a bit late to this one, most pertinent things have been said (thanks Sam!)
The irony of a discussion about Guy Fawkes pro-&-con on a blog run by a Parliamentary party is not lost on me
One more recommendation for those who enjoy Guy Fawkes celebrations:
rent the film “V for Vendetta”, directed by the Warshowski brothers (aka “the Matrix” directors…) and you’ll see what a couple of americans do with the ol’ Guy Fawkes pop-culture myths.
It really is a time to celebrate anarchy’s near-triumph over the monarchy (Parliament is a bit of a red-herring in the original history…) but the Warshowskis add a layer of USA totalitarianism to the mix, so it looks a bit more about their response to Bush’s “anti-terrorism” civilian control legislation. Worth a look!
I’d like fireworks at Matariki, but I can’t see the Wellington Harbour fireworks show happening in June, the barge off the container terminal is only marginal in November, and I know the guy who does the event management each year; he’s not keen on weather any more marginal than November or January (New Year’s).
There’d have to be the mother of all law changes to get fireworks sold twice a year, and having in my youth worked for a department store which used to sell fireworks, I know the whole arrangement is a major pain - the gunpowder leaks from the packets as fine dust, which is incredibly itchy on the skin for staff who have to handle the stock. It’s quite toxic, too, and then there’s the fire risk for those who sell the product. The Warehouse must up it’s insurance premiums every November!
I’ve also seen some horrific injuries, plus the Eastern Hutt hills ablaze most years, so I’m not as fond of the general public handling explosives as I used to be (read: 14 year old boys there for “general public”, and yes, one of mine is nearly that age…).
But I still love the huge public displays of “money-burning” that go on in the name of City-Corporate support of Guy Fawkes. At least the WCC is doing something that I can still access and enjoy!
I guess I’m just too fond of my kids coming home in one piece after fireworks week to be keen on free access to explosives. We don’t have cats, but I know cat lovers who keep their animals inside for a week to preserve them from the mayhem.
I particulaly hate those strings of crackers, which used to be called “Double-Happies” when I was a teen (?…brand name…??), which tended to be lit, then thrown at another group of teens, to cause screaming and jumping about.
OK, maternal angst aside, I still like the big, expensive, pretty-coloured ones!
October 23rd, 2006 at 5:06 pm
coming in a bit late to this one, most pertinent things have been said (thanks Sam!)
The irony of a discussion about Guy Fawkes pro-&-con on a blog run by a Parliamentary party is not lost on me
One more recommendation for those who enjoy Guy Fawkes celebrations:
rent the film “V for Vendetta”, directed by the Warshowski brothers (aka “the Matrix” directors…) and you’ll see what a couple of americans do with the ol’ Guy Fawkes pop-culture myths.
It really is a time to celebrate anarchy’s near-triumph over the monarchy (Parliament is a bit of a red-herring in the original history…) but the Warshowskis add a layer of USA totalitarianism to the mix, so it looks a bit more about their response to Bush’s “anti-terrorism” civilian control legislation. Worth a look!
I’d like fireworks at Matariki, but I can’t see the Wellington Harbour fireworks show happening in June, the barge off the container terminal is only marginal in November, and I know the guy who does the event management each year; he’s not keen on weather any more marginal than November or January (New Year’s).
There’d have to be the mother of all law changes to get fireworks sold twice a year, and having in my youth worked for a department store which used to sell fireworks, I know the whole arrangement is a major pain - the gunpowder leaks from the packets as fine dust, which is incredibly itchy on the skin for staff who have to handle the stock. It’s quite toxic, too, and then there’s the fire risk for those who sell the product. The Warehouse must up it’s insurance premiums every November!
I’ve also seen some horrific injuries, plus the Eastern Hutt hills ablaze most years, so I’m not as fond of the general public handling explosives as I used to be (read: 14 year old boys there for “general public”, and yes, one of mine is nearly that age…).
But I still love the huge public displays of “money-burning” that go on in the name of City-Corporate support of Guy Fawkes. At least the WCC is doing something that I can still access and enjoy!
I guess I’m just too fond of my kids coming home in one piece after fireworks week to be keen on free access to explosives. We don’t have cats, but I know cat lovers who keep their animals inside for a week to preserve them from the mayhem.
I particularly hate those strings of crackers, which used to be called “Double-Happies” when I was a teen (?…brand name…??), which tended to be lit, then thrown at another group of teens, to cause screaming and jumping about.
OK, maternal angst aside, I still like the big, expensive, pretty-coloured ones!
October 24th, 2006 at 6:36 am
what a load of bullshit. 3 years ago no-one had ever heard of matariki - now it is shoved down our throat every way we turn.
i don’t know if it is any worse than those annual busybodies who try to impose halloween on us.
October 24th, 2006 at 6:39 am
you know what? it’s this sort of trivial rubbish that ensures the greens will not be taken seriously by the public.
October 24th, 2006 at 6:42 am
hah - since the site software demurred at my first post starting “what a load of…”, i will repeat the essence of it here:
no-one had ever heard of matariki 3 years ago. now it is shoved down our throat every way we turn. i guess in this 1984 world, cherished traditions are created via media blitz.
i’m not sure if it is worse than those busybodies who try every year to impose halloween on nz.
October 24th, 2006 at 7:40 am
you mean it’s taken us 350 odd years to recognise an important tradition Maori celebrate year after year !?
October 24th, 2006 at 11:01 am
andrew wrote:
“cherished traditions are created via media blitz.”
well, that seems to be the case with most things in NZ lately, but obviously not the case for a pre-media-era tradition observed by Maori for dozens of generations.
just because pakeha may have only just discovered it doesn’t mean someone just dreamed it up at an ad agency brainstorming session.
October 24th, 2006 at 11:26 am
I agree with what frog has just said above. Especially about NZers working a lot. For me, full-time work plus housework can sometimes seem like too much. I think that we could benefit from more holidays and festivals.
For some young NZers, who may perceive themselves to be working hard with little hope of real material reward/home ownership, one might perceive a slight Roman slant to this. As I understand it, a number of the Roman emperors distracted and placated the poor plebian masses with festivals and “games”, to keep the peace.
October 24th, 2006 at 11:29 am
Sorry Prim, I’ve just had to delate that comment by “frog” as it wasn’t me! Some confusion with usernames, but it was a good comment I agree.
October 24th, 2006 at 11:32 am
There was a frog posting above at around 11 a.m. … it seems to have disappeared … As I recall, it said something like NZers work very hard and we could do with more festivals. And recommended that we keep Guy Fawkes as well as making Matariki a public holiday. Seems reasonable to me.
October 24th, 2006 at 12:52 pm
matariki celebration is clearly a good idea. most communities celebrate it now - as they celebrate diwali and chinese new year and so on. to say that establishing a holiday for matariki is pandering to the “pc kiwi” is a waste of time.
acknowledging that “your” culture is not a static thing (big bruv above), and that it is influenced massively by “your” community (big bruv and andrew), opens up a whole range of “new” entertainment options (prim) and allows a comunity to grow.
hell, i was born pakeha. i can celebrate matariki, diwali, chinese new year, and my mates birthday. if i like. i can learn from them all, and still be pakeha. nothing is “under threat” here…
October 24th, 2006 at 1:56 pm
andrew:
“3 years ago no-one had ever heard of matariki”
Really? I find it incredible that a person who is born and bred in this country could make such a statement!
There seems to be a problem with a concept of identity and “ownership” here.
Aotearoa is in the South Pacific. Its people navigated by the stars, and are internationally recognised as outstanding navigators. (These people are obviously not recognised by Andrew as “our” people!) They are, however, Tangata Whenua, and have lived here for about a thousand years (~ 500 generations) …
Much later a Dutch sailor sailed past this country and “discovered” Aotearoa. He called it “New Zeeland” after a very flat part of the Netherlands. (He also named Australia “New Holland”.) In neither case did he ask the local people what they thought about this …
Pakeha were newcomers to already established societies in Aotearoa. They came and brought their European ways and ideas with them. Some of these ideas and ways are good and fit in with this new society. Others are, frankly, inappropriate. (I would certainly rate the celebration of “Guy Fawkes Day” and all that represents as “seriously anachronisitc” at best.)
Similarly, some of the ideas and ways of the indigenous people of Aotearoa were good ones and others were not.
Andrew, by all means take pride in being a “New Zealander”, but PLEASE at least try to recognise what that means.
We all are people of the Pacific now. We are shaped by it. We take pride in it. I say “Let’s make our celebration of Matariki official”, and take pride in its history and what it represents. I believe that it is a much better gift to our Mokopuna than a dubious piece of English killing which was turned into a repetitive PR stunt for the undereducated masses.
October 24th, 2006 at 2:13 pm
“3 years ago no-one had ever heard of matariki - now it is shoved down our throat every way we turn.”
Yeah, i’m so sick of the shops putting up Matariki decorations and being told I have to take a day off for Matariki and the thousands of drunken teenagers in the streets every year, not to mention the ads saying “shop early for Matariki”, this thing is SO shoved down our throats! Three years ago nobody had ever heard of it, except for Maori, and of course they don’t count. Actually, I had heard of it, but I’ve got a nasty case of taking an interest in things, so probably don’t count either.
Speaking of which:
big bruv Says:
“Oh dear Sam!…it seems the PC brigade have well and truly got to you…there is nothing wrong or illegal (although I am sure some want to change this) in being a kiwi of European decent and as far as I am aware there is nothing illegal (yet) in being proud of your heritage. ”
One of the miserable things these anti-PC Labour Party types have done to this country, is to give up on changing people by persuasion and rely on legislation as a method of social engineering. Possibly the worst thing about this is that such people, such as this character, assume that their opponents are of a similar persuasion. It demonstrates their rather sad and miserable view of humanity, themselves included.
By the way, Big Bruv, what I said was “Fair enough, you can celebrate what ever you like, it doesn’t really bother me”, how you can intepret this as thinking there is something wrong with being proud of your heritage is beyond me, but I guess it makes sense in your own mind.
Personally, I’m not about to rush off to an oak grove and chop down mistletoe on midsummer eve, or whatever Europeans do, simply because my ancestral ways seem pretty irrelevent given I was born, live and intend to die on the other side of the world. If that’s your thing though, please be my guest.
Now back to more important things. Sadly, the Double-Happys mentioned by Katie were banned years ago. Their demise was pre-dated by the larger Thunders which came in packets of 12, and were normally used singly, rather than in a string. The smaller Tom Thumb crackers went along with the Double Happys, which was plainly ridiculous. I imagine many of the dipsticks who banned them trotted out for a stiff drink and a cigarette after voting to ban the really dangerous stuff.
I thought V for Vendetta kept a very British feel about it, despite the film beinmg made by Yanks. The original comic by Alan Moore is well worth the read, even if the gender roles are pretty suckfull. V’s politics are more overt in the comic, and the November 5th scene is lovely.
Tochigi - if you are in Wellington, Oriental Bay is the place to be for joyous mayhem. Get there early as the streets get jammed if the weather is fine. Every year for years the papers tried to tell us the festival was dying out - and every year the numbers of people in the streets grew. I think the journalists were at home hiding under their beds.
October 24th, 2006 at 5:29 pm
Sam, thanks for the tip!
hope the wind didn’t blow Oriental Bay away today…
October 24th, 2006 at 8:24 pm
Not so sure about fireworks but am more than sure that a mid winter festival, which should be called Matariki, is well over due.
I am constantly frustrated by the fact that our European ancestors brought their pagan/religious festivals to this side of the world and in so doing ignored the reversal of seasons. How ridiculous to have Christmas - the northern mid winter festival - in the middle of summer. How silly to celebrate Easter - the northern spring festival - just as autumn is turning everything into winter. We need our own mid winter festival. Our family have been celebrating Matariki for the past 4 years and we thrive on it. Early winter is spent looking forward to it and once past, it is almost spring. Very healthgiving.
Please let us have great mid winter Matariki celebrations.
October 24th, 2006 at 9:27 pm
thank you for your creative arguments (”most communities celebrate matariki” etc) but i stand by my assessment that nobody had ever heard of matariki until they started to get in our face with it in the last couple of years. no maori and no pakeha i know was ever aware of this. it might have been an ancient tradition, but there is no continuous tradition. it would be like reviving any defunct ancient practice & claiming we should “recognize” it because it’s tradition - whether it be pagan or a saint’s day or something else that our people haven’t celebrated for generations, and whether pakeha or maori or foreign. it’s not like christmas or even guy-fawkes night which are living traditions, part of a culture we are all born into. though i do note with distaste that commercial aspects of christmas are shoved down our throat too. anyone who objects to that example of media coercion must surely dislike the same thing in the case of matariki - and don’t think that just because shops aren’t pushing it yet that it is inherently less materialistic than our traditional celebrations. if it shows any sign of catching on, or even if the media campaign hots up enough, we’ll start to see matariki toys, decorations, cards etc too.
i agree we work too much & more holidays would be welcome - so here is a list of dates which would be more resonant with the average new zealander:
-npc final day (held on a monday so we have an extra holiday);
-elvis’s birthday - he’s a bigger star than matariki;
-anzac day - a whole holiday, mondayized & all;
-small gods’ eve - no seriously, 10 times more new zealanders give a spit about terry pratchett than they do about some maori star;
-full moons - as long as the sun and moon continue to delineate so many natural cycles important to our lives this will be relevant to all cultures;
-equinoxes & solstices - the sun is yet another star bigger than matariki;
-fluffy animal day;
-independence day - 28th october - anniversary of the declaration of nz independence in 1835;
-telethon - i know that would be reviving a defunct tradition, but at least it’s one most of us can still remember;
-nuclear free day
October 24th, 2006 at 11:59 pm
andrew,
do you make a special effort to make your comments drip with arrogance, conceit, ignorance and logical falacy? if not, you’ve got a rare natural talent there.
andrew wrote:
“nobody had ever heard of matariki until they started to get in our face with it in the last couple of years. no maori and no pakeha i know was ever aware of this. it might have been an ancient tradition, but there is no continuous tradition.”
ooh, so because no one you know had ever metioned it to you, it never existed as a living tradition, eh? you obviously think you’re NZ’s greatest ever cultural expert, since every single tradition of importance MUST be reported to you before it can receive your “official seal of recognition”. p*ss off will ya, mate?
andrew wrote:
“it’s not like christmas or even guy-fawkes night which are living traditions, part of a culture we are all born into.”
we are all born into, eh? ffs, mate, who is this royal f-ing “we, then? just to help you update your boundless cultural wisdom, “we” were born into a whole myriad of cultures. just because you don’t know much about other people’s cultures doesn’t mean they don’t exist or haven’t been practiced continually for hundreds of years.
andrew wrote:
“here is a list of dates which would be more resonant with the average new zealander”
and who the f is this mythical “average” NZer? a bit like brash’s mainstream, maybe?
can i possibly enquire as to why you bother posting this drivel? do you like wasting your time? or making yourelf look foolish? really, i am interested because it seems so pointless.
October 25th, 2006 at 2:13 am
Andrew writes:
“i stand by my assessment that nobody had ever heard of matariki until they started to get in our face with it in the last couple of years. no maori and no pakeha i know was ever aware of this. it might have been an ancient tradition, but there is no continuous tradition.”
Andrew: My assessment of your “assessment” is that it is incorrect, insulting and displays a worrying level of ignorance (factual and cultural!)
Matariki is not just a Maori tradition.
The constellation Matariki, (”Pleiades” to the Europeans, “Subaru” to the Japanese …) was and is a very important constellation for navigation in the Pacific. We are talking about a vast ocean with many very small and low lying islands, every one of which is known and all but a very few rejects (three I think?) are inhabited. Many are less than a metre above sealevel.
I have always found that my Maori acquaitances and friends just “do their own thing” quietly. If I ask to be included they are very welcoming.
It seems that many Maori learn to assume tha Pakeha are not interested in their knowledge and culture. Having heard Andrew in full flight I begin to understand why!
October 25th, 2006 at 3:34 am
I can unashamedly say that 3 years ago I had never heard of Matariki either, but I heard of the Pleiades AND used them to orient myself on the Ocean more than 3 decades ago. My excuse is that 3 years ago I had been here in Wellington only a month (and was waiting to see a clear night sky
).
I hold with Wilbur, that our particular set of dislocated pagan celebrations is painfully out of sync… our midsummer’s Christmas seems even less rational than the “surfing santa” off of Malibu. Either we live HERE and work at fitting in HERE or we are simply visiting this place and don’t really belong here at all. I don’t insist on JUST Maori dates and celebrations, but I see no reason not to create an inclusive culture here.
—warning, now wandering from topic —-
… and the insistence on the 25th of December for certain religious purposes is based on what documentation again? One would lucky to get the year right on the evidence available, and the calendar itself is pretty f’ing arbitrary. My recollection was that the choice of date was simply an effort to co-opt other celebrations of other natives in a place far far away.
—- Quite a long way actually —–
Personally I hold with a new calendar starting from the instant Neil Armstrong first set foot on the moon. We could manage that a heck of a lot more accurately and it is more widely perceived as a significant event in human history. Whether it is also a high-water mark in human achievement remains a scary proposition to consider.
http://www.mithrandir.com/Tranquility/tranquilityArticle.html
respectfully
BJ
October 25th, 2006 at 10:24 am
eredwen Says:
“It seems that many Maori learn to assume tha Pakeha are not interested in their knowledge and culture”
As a Kiwi of British ancestry (I dislike the term Pakeha) I must say that this statement applies to me.
I fail to see why I need to understand their knowledge and culture.
October 25th, 2006 at 11:58 am
Certainly big bruv, if you want to remain ignorant of Maori culture that is your choice, and I certainly would oppose anyone trying to ram it down your throat. It is also your choice whether or not you want to learn about science, art, music, philosophy, literature, language, mathematics, religion or anything else that concerns the world around you.
Personally I am fascinated by all these things as it helps me know more about the world I call home and what it means to be human. In the same way, as a British immigrant, learning about Maori culture helps me learn more about the adopted country I choose to call home and what it means to be a New Zealander. This does not mean I have to adopt the culture or even approve of it, but I can’t know whether I like it or not until I know something about it.
October 25th, 2006 at 12:18 pm
big bruv: “I fail to see why I need to understand their knowledge and culture”
you don’t need to. but if you don’t you are simply a static/stagnant island in a living community. you might as well be saying “surfers. why are they always at the beach when i am?”
you seem to be confusing culture and cultural heritage. culture is a living thing. music, dance, craft, cooking, and hell, even rugby are examples. your cultural heritage is “As a Kiwi of British ancestry”. your culture is living right now out your front door.
most communities in our land (maybe not yours) comprise a “mainstream” (ahem) of people who give a shit about people and events around them. open your eyes man, you may learn something about yourself, our country, and the planet.
bruv, i’d like to hear your argument for advocating no attempt “to understand their knowledge and culture”. is it that you dont have the time? hell, maybe we should have a public holiday…
October 25th, 2006 at 3:31 pm
Mikeymike
That is a rather arrogant response to an honest opinion, I am not sure how you can assume that I do not “give a shit” about people and events.
I can assure you I am not a ’static/stagnant island”, I am far to busy paying bloody taxes to be “stagnant”.
Your last paragraph is interesting, quite why I need to explain to you why I have no interest in understanding their culture is something I do not understand, can I assume that you would make it compulsory given the opportunity?
Oh..and as for the beach scenario….yes please, the less surfers at the beach when the waves are good suits me right down to the ground.
October 25th, 2006 at 4:34 pm
Big Bruv - the explaining here IS optional, but if you don’t you aren’t really contributing much but a bit of rhythm. I feel that I should take every opportunity to understand the people who have consented to share this country with me. That was a very brotherly and civilized thing for them to do, and if I am to honour the spirit of that gesture properly I am obliged to respect them and their traditions as equal to my own unless there is some compelling reason to argue one side or the other has a more useful tradition.
We discuss things and possibly understand the world and each other a little better in the process, else why bother to come here at all? We asked to understand you… this isn’t an insult, it is a challenge to your ideas.
Will you, can you, defend them?
If not, then shouldn’t you reconsider them?
BJ
October 25th, 2006 at 5:11 pm
bruv:
i kinda hope you’re taking the piss, and that you’re simply here to waste yours and our time. but since your time is precious - you’re “far to busy paying bloody taxes” - we should probably assume you’ve something valid to say. please say it. pretty please.
my understanding of culture is as a living phenom. that is reflected in people, places and events (mundane and spectacular) that interact in our communities.
you say that i “assume” you “do not “give a shitâ€?
fair enough. i generalised. maybe you do give a shit about people and events. but you’ve affirmed that as a “Kiwi of British ancestry” you “are not interested in their (Maori) knowledge and culture”. you’ve stated that you have no “need to understand their knowledge and culture”. i’ve assumed that this applies for you with regard other “other” cultures too.
your comments strongly imply that you only give a shit if the people and events (and places) converse with your cultural heritage. if i’m close to being right with my understanding of communities being places for culture (above, and i’m pretty sure i am), then your community is only a “place” for “Kiwi of British ancestry”. or maybe you’ve taken the next step: your cultural heritage isn’t important either (but oddly enough you do give a shit about people and events).
to me yours sounds like a “lord of my living room” or “legend in my own shower” mentality. i’d like to hear you say i’m wrong (and hopefully, why).
the benefits of seeking an understanding are dotted throughout the comments above. in short i think the benefits can be summarised by a feeling of being a citizen of earth, rather than a patch of dirt a whole lot smaller.
i’m after your thoughts on why you wouldn’t bother to seek an understanding. thoughts on how you’ve formed your “honest opinion”. or conversely, your thoughts on how else i can get the benefits i see if i dont seek an understanding. or maybe another story: why are the “benefits” i see not “benefits” afterall.
cheers!
October 25th, 2006 at 6:26 pm
People -
I think that everyone is entitled to express their opinion and to be treated appropriately well. We all have different priorities that reflect our own individual contexts. Context includes what immediately surrounds us, but other factors can be more important to some; and it doesn’t always have to be about the here and now, or representative of the average makeup of NZ society. Let’s have some tolerance here for differences in views. I repeat that it would serve the Greens well to listen to people with a diversity of views, and to understand and respect them.
As I get older, my context seems to widen; these days, the way I think about the year 1800, and aspects of our British heritage, is this:
-1976 was 30 years ago, and seems not long ago to me
-1800 was 206 years ago: go back to 1976, and repeat this shift 6 times;
-which to me, makes 1800 seem not so very long ago
We are flickers in time. We can collectively learn from much that has happened, going back to the ancients of all cultures if we wish.
October 25th, 2006 at 6:49 pm
Prim, i agree. and this is clearly a good forum for expressing opinion. its just that as a forum (a community), it works well/better if opinion is substantiated. as you say, “…to listen to people with a diversity of views, and to understand and respect them”.
again, “understand and respect”. “understand and respect” “views” and peoples alike. our communities are places for peoples of all cultures to present their lives/views/skill/etc for us all to engage with in order to then “understand and respect”. if they’re not presented, they cant be understood - or respected.
that goes for both your average town square and your average online community.
October 26th, 2006 at 1:42 am
i don’t have to be a cultural expert to know when something isn’t part of culture. such an idea exhibits a confused understanding of what culture is. culture is not something obscure or esoteric, & if i have to be sent back to school to learn of it, or in any other way undergo re-education or re-programming, then it isn’t part of the culture.
mikeymike showed a better understanding of the nature of culture when he pointed out the difference between culture (a living thing) and cultural heritage: ” your cultural heritage is “As a Kiwi of British ancestry”. your culture is living right now out your front door” but didn’t seem to spot the irony that matariki is itself an example of cultural heritage with no living tradition - it’s something bygone which has been discovered by some bright-eyed idealist who thought it would be an awfully good idea if we all started practicing it. as i stated earlier, it used to be a tradition, but there is no living tradition. you would have to be pretty confused to read that comment & imagine instead that i was saying that it never existed as a living tradition.
the comment “Either we live HERE and work at fitting in HERE or we are simply visiting this place and don’t really belong here at all” would seem to be more appropriately directed to those wishing to change the culture than to those of us who like it the way it is.
and if you think culture or tradition must be based on scholarly research and documentation, then you also just don’t get it. & yes our christmas is celebrated at a different season than in other parts of the world - maybe that’s what makes the nz christmas tradition a distinctly new zealand tradition.
for those who pretend ignorance about the meaning of the phrase “average new zealander” (i could have said “normal new zealander” of course), the average new zealander is not the same as brash’s mainstream. brash’s mainstream refuse to respect the rights of people from groups other than their own.
on the other hand the average new zealander i take it is someone who wants to let others alone to enjoy their cultures as long as it doesn’t impinge on his or her enjoyment of his/her own, and wants to be let alone likewise. such a person probably understands that while a culture is not static, legitimate cultural chnges are those generated incrementally within the culture - not those which are thrust upon them externally. they naturally object to an act of cultural engineering by people with an agenda.
and that’s what you ought to respect if you want to honour our gesture in consenting to share our country with you.
October 26th, 2006 at 1:50 am
i saw the comments above yesterday while i was on the net, but felt too demoralized to reply right away. thanks to prim and bjchip for expressing an opposing viewpoint while remaining polite. eredwin & tochigi - funny how you were polite & friendly in a previous thread when i was saying stuff you agreed with. in the light of your very different reaction this time you might like to examine whether your position is based on reason, or if it is based on visceral prejudices.
for the person who claimed i drip with logical fallacies, why don’t you walk the walk & actually point out some of them specifically. & please note that ad hominem is also a logical fallacy.
& mikeymike, you don’t get off with belated lip service to “understanding”, “respect”, “listening” & “community”. i caught your accusation of racism earlier. oh, you didn’t say it straight out, you went the propaganda route, slyly invoking the “redneck white working class male who feels threatened by change” stereotype with your gratuitous “nothing is under threat here…” (nobody had actually said there was).
but since you raise the issue, the proposal which is the topic of this discussion is not merely allowing people to observe matariki if they want to - they are already free to do that. it’s about chucking out guy fawkes night & replacing it. and even if that were not the case, it necessarily stands to reason that the growth of one culture entails the decline of another.
October 26th, 2006 at 1:55 am
why demand big bruv explains the obvious - why he is not obligated to study other cultures?
the reason is that they have nothing to do with him, they are not his.
October 26th, 2006 at 2:01 am
andrew wrote:
” for the person who claimed i drip with logical fallacies, why don’t you walk the walk & actually point out some of them specifically.”
i did. please read if you are interested.
and the reason i took a more abraisive tone is because of YOUR conceit, as in “nobody had ever heard of matariki” blah, blah, blah.
if you want people to be more polite, i suggest you try to be a bit less less self-centred.
October 26th, 2006 at 11:40 am
“I fail to see why I need to understand their knowledge and culture. ”
Fair enough, you have every right not to. Of course, the flip side is that nobody is required to understand yours. I presume you are happy to have your culture and heritage ignored or stepped on by ignorant people? Happy to have legislation put in place that ignores your values and principles? Quite OK with being misunderstood by people who are ignorant of your language and traditions?
“the proposal which is the topic of this discussion is not merely allowing people to observe matariki if they want to - they are already free to do that. it’s about chucking out guy fawkes night & replacing it. and even if that were not the case, it necessarily stands to reason that the growth of one culture entails the decline of another. ”
Problem is, Andrew, we don’t have a ‘cultural free market’. In this particular case, I suspect Guy Fawkes is being kept alive largely by legislation which restricts the sale of fireworks to a particular time of the year - so people aren’t able to celebrate Matariki with fireworks if they choose.
Likewise, we get public holidays by statute. We could just give everyone another ten days annual leave to use as they see fit and insist that business allows people to work over Christmas etc. if they choose. I suspect they would get very grumpy as having everyone off work at the same time is more convenient for them.
October 26th, 2006 at 1:57 pm
andrew/bruv:
“why demand big bruv explains the obvious - why he is not obligated to study other cultures? the reason is that they have nothing to do with him, they are not his.”
yep, initially a few asked that, the question moved on. in most communities all cultures have much to with eachother. i was trying to get across the fact that cultures “interact in our communities.” they are part of our lives. to say other cultures “have nothing to do with him” is simply not correct.
i (maybe a few others too) want to understand why bruv would try not to engage with his community (in order not to let “other” cultures have anything to do with him). my comment reflected that my understanding of bruv led to an impression that his was a narrow view of culture and community. andrew, you saw accusation of racism. ok. maybe in this context they’re on the same continuum. but culture has more than simply a “racial” context.
thats why i asked to “hear [bruv] say i’m wrong” - to allow an understanding of his perspective. although we may be flogging a dead horse here.
regardless, healthy communities are where all cultures can be expressed, grown, and shared. surely that stands to reason? contrary to andrew saying that it “stands to reason that the growth of one culture entails the decline of another”, cultures are dynamic. understanding eachother and growing together has always been and will remian within human capacity.
October 26th, 2006 at 2:04 pm
What we should be aiming for is a decline of two cultures giving rise to the emergence of a third. That’s adaptive rather than simply competitive.
respectfully
BJ
October 26th, 2006 at 7:28 pm
I disagree with Andrew, but I must say Tochigi was over the top in his ad hominem attacks. I have no idea whether Andrew is self-centred or not, since I don’t live with him, so I will give him the benefit of the doubt and simply be content to say why I disagree with his point of view. It is a pity because Tochigi’s comments are usually intelligent and polite.
As far as a reason why you should learn about the culture of the country you are living in is concerned, well isn’t simple curiousity enough. I choose to learn about science and history because it is part of the world around me and teaches me something about what it means to be human. Similarly learning something about Maori culture (whethr I agree with all aspects of it or not) teaches me something about the country I choose to live in and what it means to be a New Zealander.
October 26th, 2006 at 8:56 pm
kiore1,
i would politely request that you re-read what andrew wrote and my reply. i was reacting to comments by him that reaked of an “i’m at the centre of the universe” attitude, and which unequivocally set out to deny the existence of someone else’s cultural tradition simply on the basis that he had never heard of it. i said such comments were arrogant and conceited and contained numerous logical fallacies, and i stand by that assessment. if i came across as overly sarcastic, i apologise. i intended to criticize the argument, not the person, but i probably got carried away.
October 26th, 2006 at 9:08 pm
bj suggests:
“a decline of two cultures giving rise to the emergence of a third.”
That is what has been happening increasingly over my lifetime (particularly in the last three decades).
There has also been the introduction of older European festivals via TV and Commerce (courtesy of the USA! … “Haloween” for example.)
……..
andrew (obviously upset and in “attacking mode”) writes:
“eredwin & tochigi - funny how you were polite & friendly in a previous thread when i was saying stuff you agreed with. in the light of your very different reaction this time you might like to examine whether your position is based on reason, or if it is based on visceral prejudices.
for the person who claimed i drip with logical fallacies, why don’t you walk the walk & actually point out some of them specifically. & please note that ad hominem is also a logical fallacy.”
Your vitriol is not warranted, and does not help your “arguments” (which in this case show a lack of knowledge*). Perhaps (in this context), you might reread our interchanges and anything I wrote that upset you.
(As a former (tertiary) teacher of “Communications”, I take the art of communicating seriously, and in this case it takes two to communicate!)
*I believe it would be a good idea for you to spend some time Googling (or equivalent) “Matariki” especially in relationship to “Maori”.
You seem to have missed “a groundswell” towards more indigenous Kiwi celebrations, that many Pakeha have been aware of for a considerable time now.
I do suspect that, whatever your wishes may be, Matariki will become an increasingly important celebration in this country, (and not just those of Maori and Polynesian ancestry who have always celebrated it (without your noticing!)
eredwen
October 26th, 2006 at 11:27 pm
I cannot remember when I first heard about Matariki, but it probably was not long ago (1-2-3 years perhaps). People do move in different groups. Perhaps this discussion illustrates this. Perhaps there are indeed significant groups within NZ that are fairly disconnected from the others? I really don’t know. I am not sure if it is really a problem; I do not want to see NZ become too uniform. I like diversity, but it needs to be accompanied by tolerance.
Also - people are human. I think it may be unrealistic to expect everyone to be well informed about everything that every individual on this blog would like people to be informed about. I think that many people don’t have much time or energy these days after work, work drinks, housework and raising children to get out of their usual zone and explore cultural differences. Especially when both parents are working. Don’t be too hard on people.
If someone isn’t interested in part of NZ culture, I do not think that that can justify trampling on that person’s culture or rights. Lawyers might have something to say about it as well. Live and let live, say I (within reason, of course)! If only that could hold throughout nature, I would think nature perfect; but real nature intervenes …
An anecdote now from me. Where I worked last year, it was almost 100% white (not sure why) …. we worked hard and socialised together a little, in a way that seems to me now quite disconnected from anything to do with Maori culture. I doubt if it would have crossed anyone’s mind to ignore it; it just didn’t come up, and we were flat out.
20 years ago I attended a very multicultural high school, with a high proportion of Maori and Polynesian students, but I don’t recall ever hearing about Matariki in my years there.
All the above said, bring on another public holiday! Midwinter solstice and beginning of spring seem like good times for big parties, to this townie at least. And I think Christmas in summer is just fine - it makes sense to celebrate it at the same time as everyone else in the world. We just get to celebrate it at the beach! We get a brilliant Christmas plus a midwinter solstice - 2 for the price of 1 - we should go for it.
October 26th, 2006 at 11:54 pm
Prim,
i am not the least bit worried whether someone knows about or is interested in understanding other cultures present in NZ. that’s their choice. but a certain commenter above said this:
“i stand by my assessment that nobody had ever heard of matariki until they started to get in our face with it in the last couple of years. no maori and no pakeha i know was ever aware of this. it might have been an ancient tradition, but there is no continuous tradition.”
this is nothing to do with knowing/understanding other people’s cultures, it is a flat-out denial of the existence of other people’s culture. it’s ignorant and conceited as far as i’m concerned and deserves strong criticism, IMO.
October 27th, 2006 at 3:11 am
The dunny-brush mainstreamer is tolerant. He tolerates the existence of non-mainstream people (but hearing such people referred to as “New Zealanders” is a bit much, it makes the mainstreamer pucker). But don’t ask him to take any account of what they think, feel, or do. That would be more than tolerance : that would be coexistence, and he doesn’t do that. The mainstreamer knows he is the real New Zealander. (Don’t call him a “pakeha”, he prefers a mealy-mouthed circumlocution that enables him to deny the existence of the Maori as a cultural referent). He feels that his role as cultural hegemon for the last hundred years or so entitles him to eternally dominate the calendar, morals and values of the country.
New Zealand culture is what he sees from his front door.
Looking in.
October 27th, 2006 at 9:08 am
Today is Captain Cooks birthday, I think this day should be celebrated and a national holiday observed.
October 27th, 2006 at 9:21 am
Captain Cook would not have made it without the help of Tupaia. Tupaia would not have made it without Matariki.
October 27th, 2006 at 9:45 am
Alastair, that’s rather rude of you. As far as I’m concerned, even Maoris and Muslims and gays can be mainstream - as long as they support National.
October 27th, 2006 at 10:09 am
Aah well…
If we cant have a reasoned multi sided debate at least we have humour.
October 27th, 2006 at 11:20 am
Wilbur Says:
October 27th, 2006 at 9:21 am
Captain Cook would not have made it without the help of Tupaia. Tupaia would not have made it without Matariki.
Of course you have proof of this?
October 27th, 2006 at 12:26 pm
I’ll swap proof that Christ was born in a manger in Bethlehem, on 25 December 0000 for my proof, which is much more recent and documented.
October 27th, 2006 at 12:48 pm
Wilbur
Huh?
October 27th, 2006 at 2:59 pm
This thread IS getting way more wierd than even we usually manage
A bucket of cold water is called for.
Could Cook have made it here without Tupaia? Dunno, he was a competent naviguesser, he might have done it anyhow.
Could Tupaia had navigated without the pleiades? I am sure he could’ve. They aren’t primary nav stars because they are not particularly bright… they are easily obscured and only one in a sky full of navigational beacons.
Wilbur was, I think, drawing the comparison to the story of Christmas, which has no particular reason to choose the date it does aside (apparently) from the convenience of being able to co-opt the celebration of the solstice that was common among tree-worshippers somewhere somewhen. In other words, there is as much reason to choose one celebration as the other…
I feel a Rodney King moment coming on.
respectfully
BJ
respectfully
BJ
October 27th, 2006 at 3:50 pm
“This thread IS getting way more wierd than even we usually manage”
People keep going miles off subject, me included. Back to the subject - the Astroblazer firework assortment at the Warehouse seems pretty good if you have a ridiculous $50 to spare. Assorted multi-barrel mortars plus some Roman candles, fountains and sparklers. Remember that it’s weight of powder that matters, not size. The Pistol Shot and Night Rocket mortars seem to weigh in the best, if not as big as the Exocet and Space Blitz.
How come all the names have been militarized? They used to have pretty names - things like ‘Mt Vesuvius’, ‘Flying Geese’, ‘Snowflake’ and ‘Butterflies’. This sucks.
October 27th, 2006 at 5:09 pm
bj:
James Cook was an experienced navigator. He was in a part of the World about which he knew very little. He was wise and lucky to enlist the services of a local experienced navigator. This navigator apart from special skills had great knowledge of the area (and the aditional advantage of Mana, and knowing the languages and customs of the people who inhabited the area.) It should be pointed out that on a later voyage, when Cook lacked such expert help he died in Hawaii because he violated a local custom.
Matariki ARE “primary navigatory stars” in this part of the World at certain times of the night.
wilbur: Google (or equivalent) “Tupaia James Cook Matariki”
Among the many entries (of the stuff that my generation learnt at Primary School) there is one that I didn’t know: In James Cook’s home town in Yorkshire they have a “Matariki Society” to this day.
October 27th, 2006 at 5:38 pm
Eredwen -
My phrasing deliberately left more of a possibility of failure in Cooks navigation had he not had the services of Tupaia, I was merely pointing out that those services and the existence of the Pleiades weren’t necessary conditions for success.
October 27th, 2006 at 6:09 pm
Eredwen-
Not only was Matariki an important navigation point, but Matariki the celebration was significant in the whole of Polynesia as a guide to storing and planting of food. Thus the survival of Tupaia through the generations was to some extent dependent on this significant period. Not that it proves very much, but it makes me feel good about celebrating Matariki as a Pakeha, who is proud of our combined and equally important cultural backgrounds while remembering that we now live in the southern hemisphere and the Pacific.
Prim -
No matter that the world celebrates, let’s start celebrating our snow covered midwinter occasion - Matariki. Christmas cards at the beach with snow on them is ridiculous. And as for celebrating a spring festival, Easter, in a country so dependant on farming, in the autumn, is beyond comprehension. This is particularly so when we treat the holiday so solemnly that, by law shops, cannot open.
October 27th, 2006 at 10:11 pm
yes, Easter…all those biblical New Testament symbols, like…
ahem…rabbits, eggs, vernal rebirth…
in the middle of autumn…of course!
now, a serious 4-day harvest-moon festival in April wouldn’t be a bad idea…
plus an autumnal equinox holiday thrown in for good measure!
October 27th, 2006 at 10:37 pm
Big Bro :
Today is Captain Cooks birthday, I think this day should be celebrated and a national holiday observed.
I heartily second that! We could use it to replace the completely irrelevant “Queen’s Birthday” holiday.
I consider James Cook as a spiritual ancestor and role model. A true renaissance man, a scientific mind who eagerly embraced other cultures and treated all men as his equals.
A Tupaia Day would be great too. A way of acknowledging the importance of Pacific Islanders to our country, over the centuries.
October 27th, 2006 at 11:49 pm
Wilbur: I appologise … In my haste I erroneously put your name on my message which was meant for our doubting “big bruv”.
I too really like the idea of a formal recognition of the celebration of Matariki for those same reasons!
alistair: I LIKE the idea of “Tupaia Day”
QUESTION: How do we proceed on this?
bj: “that’s cool” as they say.
big bruv: I believe that change is inevitable in a South Pacific country of mixed migration. (Great Britain ceased to be called “Home” a long time ago now, but I’m old enough to remember it from some elderly Great Aunts and Uncles, who were all NZ born themselves.) Your descendants would take for granted special days that reflect our place on the Planet, (and you’d have the advantage of being able to say “When I was young we … “)
October 28th, 2006 at 1:29 am
Wilbur -
A few points. As I said above, I’d like a celebration at midwinter solstice. You seem to be agreeing with me on that. Your suggestion of Christmas cards at the beach with snow on them is interesting, but I think this goes unnecessarily far. Christmas in summer has been part of NZ culture for decades. Please note that I didn’t say anything about Easter. And I actually supported a spring celebration. Please don’t argue with me on the basis of things I have not said.
I think we can have Matariki, Christmas and Guy Fawkes, and a whole bunch of other special occasions. But I do not feel so strongly about it that I would want to spend much more time on this discussion.
October 28th, 2006 at 9:24 am
Perhaps enough said. In would really like to see Matariki celebrations be brought in as some sort of national holiday, but no idea how it should be proceeded.
I have enjoyed the opportunity to open up the discussion.
October 28th, 2006 at 11:58 am
hey guess what today is?
28th of october - so happy independence day!
actually because independence was already a fact before this declaration a better name would be sovereignty day - but then the sovereignty was ceded 5 years later, so that’s not quite appropriate either.
it was the day nz became an entity though, for good & all, but somehow the title “political entity day” lacks a certain ring..
i’ll settle for “new zealand day”. a downside is that this name was once used for waitangi day, but since this was widely discredited as an attempt to downplay the importance of the treaty, i consider an appropriate use of the name is still available for this anniversary.
so, who wants to celebrate new zealand day with me?
-oh yes, i also forgot another important one - beer day!
November 1st, 2006 at 4:01 pm
I have a new use for fireworks, this could become a real Kiwi tradition.
When teenagers bang on your front door all evening demanding that you supply the sods with sweets you should be able (stuff it, make it compulsory) to throw a sky rocket or double happy (do they still make them?) at the buggers.
While I detest this Halloween rubbish I find it hard to refuse a polite young child who is accompanied by a parent, I object to handing out sweets to teenagers.
Can fellow frog bloggers confirm my suspicions that it was basically the Warehouse who forced this stupid festival upon the people of NZ, I was out of NZ for all of the 90’s and when I left the country I am sure we did not celebrate Halloween here.
November 2nd, 2006 at 9:54 pm
yeah, halloween is a pain in the bum. i don’t know if the warehouse is primarily responsible though. i note the role of the media in forcing this down our throats too, with television scheduling halloween-theme programmes.
it may be necessary for me to spell out some things about our discussion here. firstly, i’m not engaging in any cultural engineering - i’m for retaining the status quo. i’m not extolling british culture over maori culture - i recognize that our new zealand culture is a hybrid which has taken in elements of various cultures as well as continuing to grow on its own - and i like it more or less the way it is now. even though change has brought us to where we are now, we don’t necessarily have to have change any more. perpetual change for its own sake is not analagous to improvement. but if changes do occur, they should be those which evolve from amidst the culture, not those imposed externally. if the proposal were merely to legalize year-round fireworks sales, well then best wishes. at least we’d soon see which celebrations had a hold among the people. i’m not against having more celebrations in the year, including a mid-winter celebration. in fact i specifically mentioned solstice as a more appropriate option than matariki. one of the big drawbacks to matariki is that it would detract from solstice as a celebration. why celebrate some random constellation “round about” mid-winter when we know the exact date of the far more significant solstice.
i’ve made the following factual points:
-matariki is not part of the current new zealand culture
-expanding on the above, the vast majority of new zealanders (of all races) were unaware of matariki until over the last three years or so it came in for some heavy media attention. quibblers may point out that my precise wording was “nobody had heard of it”. still i’m sure i can be forgiven for using a well known figure of speech.
-a person’s right to practice their own culture excludes any obligation to assimilate any elements of any other culture, or to learn anything about them. (even though it might be nice to do so).
-the fact that matariki used to be celebrated here generations before, doesn’t mean it is part of our culture now. (nor has been over the intervening time period).
-those trying to force change on us have the obligation to justify themselves, not me.
you can’t deny any of these truths. it’s absurd to suggest the pro-matariki people would be making this cheer-leading effort for it if it was already part of our cultural calendar.
and one final truth that didn’t get enough attention - that the greens make themselves look trivial bothering themselves with this sort of issue. people expect parliamentary parties to be concerning themselves with momentous issues about the governing of the country - matters of the economy, global warming etc. this sort of thing is the province of the candidates for class-president or head girl. i seriously think peter dunne would have got more mileage from his idea to extend daylight-savings, inconsequential though that is.
most people are only animated by an issue like this when some busybody trys to force change down their throat - then they’ll resist.
i say all this to be helpful.
November 2nd, 2006 at 10:02 pm
andrew - I think that some US states may have passed laws a year or two ago to extend daylight savings. I think it was predicted to save around 0.5% of their electricity; not sure what the result has been.
I like Halloween, partly for its strangeness. I enjoyed pumpkin carving one year. It doesn’t seem big here in NZ.
November 3rd, 2006 at 3:33 am
Andrew - You have felt it worthwhile to write a summary of your thoughts on this (sometimes fraught) discussion about “Matariki.”
In return, I have commented here, and in the process attempted to
highlight the philosophical and procedural differences between us.
(I speak for myself. However, I have been “a Green” for thirty five years.)
ANDREW SAID: “I’m for retaining the status quo.”
AND “even though change has brought us to where we are now, we don’t necessarily have to have change any more.”
EREDWEN: Yes. It is clear that, as a conservative, you appear to dislike change. However change is an inevitable part of living in a global village, and an inevitable part of living in an increasingly multi-cultural country, which encourages immigration.
ANDREW: “if changes do occur, they should be those which evolve from amidst the culture, not those imposed externally.”
“i recognize that our new zealand culture is a hybrid which has taken in elements of various cultures as well as continuing to grow on its own”
EREDWEN: I agree! We are being bombarded with the “external� (from American Television for example!)
However, there is nothing “external” about the celebration of Matariki.
Without your noticing, Maori and Pacific Islanders have continued to recognise Matariki.
In my experience Maori tend to “do their own thing” unnoticed by many Pakeha. They are able to move between cultures easily, and an increasing number of young Pakeha are choosing to join them.
This doesn’t include all Maori. The efforts (last century) to separate young Maori from their language and their culture “for their own good” had an effect. However Maori culture survives (and thrives) in Aotearoa and is currently undergoing a Renaissance.
ANDREW: “why celebrate some random constellation “round aboutâ€? mid-winter when we know the exact date of the far more significant solstice.”
EREDWEN: “Random” to you … but very important and historically significant for navigation in the Southern Hemisphere (as was pointed out in previous discussion.)
ANDREW “IN SUMMARY”:
A: i’ve made the following factual points:
“-matariki is not part of the current new zealand culture”
e: I’d amend that to “has not been part of the dominant culture�
A: expanding on the above, “the vast majority of new zealanders (of all races) were unaware of matariki until over the last three years or so”
e: Are you sure? That is not my experience. The Pacific Islanders are “awareâ€?. Have you checked with the various Asians? Probably immigrants from the American mainland and Europe would be “unaware”.
A: “the fact that matariki used to be celebrated here generations before, doesn’t mean it is part of our culture now. (nor has been over the intervening time period).”
“-those trying to force change on us have the obligation to justify themselves, not me.”
e: and I have previously pointed out that these assertions are not accurate.
A: “you can’t deny any of these truths.”
e: They are your “truths�.
A: “and one final truth … “that the greens make themselves look trivial bothering themselves with this sort of issue.”
e: We don’t agree.
A: “i say all this to be helpful.”
e: Thanks for the sentiment and your effort.
November 25th, 2006 at 5:27 pm
See a slightly wider perspective on this from my blog from July’06.
http://prayingmantis.blogtown.co.nz/2006/07/02/holy-days-should-be-nat ural-days/
January 23rd, 2007 at 8:09 am
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