by frog
On the face of it, it might seem like the looming threat of peak oil and the current bloodshed in Lebanon are two quite separate threats to global security, but a theory posited recently by the President of the Global Americana Institute, Juan Cole, on his blog Informed Comment, makes a compelling case that they are, in fact, inextricably linked.
You’ll only glean the full impact from reading the whole post, which you really should do, but the central thesis can be summed up something like this:
Oil and gas reserves are running out just about everywhere, except in Iran, which is sitting on substantial resources of this nature. Emerging superpowers like China and India need more and more oil to keep growing at the rate they are, and may be in a position to make exclusive deals with Iran for access to their oil, shutting out the US. Considering the US’s close ties with Israel, and assuming that a reader’s suggestion that “the US government is 100% convinced that both, Hamas and Hizballah are creatures of Iran and that Iran uses them to undermine US goals in the region” is accurate,
It may be that that hawks are thinking this way: Destroy Lebanon, and destroy Hizbullah, and you reduce Iran’s strategic depth. Destroy the Iranian nuclear program and you leave it helpless and vulnerable to having done to it what the Israelis did to Lebanon. You leave it vulnerable to regime change, and a dragooning of Iran back into the US sphere of influence, denying it to China and assuring its 500 tcf of natural gas to US corporations. You also politically reorient the entire Gulf, with both Saddam and Khamenei gone, toward the United States. Voila, you avoid peak oil problems in the US until a technological fix can be found, and you avoid a situation where China and India have special access to Iran and the Gulf.
The second American Century ensues. The “New Middle East” means the “American Middle East.”
And it all starts with the destruction of Lebanon.
Published in Environment & Resource Management | Justice & Democracy by frog on Tue, August 8th, 2006
Tags: environment
on the trolls and those who are unable to keep on topic
For a considerable time now, all of this planning and beligerance has been encapsulated in (the frequently used) comment: “IT”S THE OIL, STUPID!”
I assumed that “everyone” knew. It all has become increasingly obvious, as each (predictable) step after (predictable) step has been taken.
SO … WHAT CAN WE DO, TO (help) STOP THIS MADNESS ?
Available mass media coverage and comment ranges from “seriously biased”, through “not as bad but still currently heavily tainted” to “items of sense and some depth”, (the last, often on National Radio). I can’t comment on newspapers.
Many who are “more informed” go straight to the internet (which, unfortunately, will tell people whatever it is that they, each, want to be told!)
One website I ALWAYS read is “International Clearing House” (ICH) which gathers relevant articles and newsitems. It has become heavily patronised (and increasingly eclectic.)
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info
I get the smart email version delivered into my inbox daily!
I’m wondering (SHOULD/COULD WE HELP TO COMPILE A READABLE AND CONVINCING DOSIER of websites/addresses for the use of “too busy to notice” Kiwis?)
Ignorance of what is happening further endangers us all.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Not to mention that Israel is rather short of water, including (does that mean “annexing?”) the Litani River into Israel would be rather handy…
We are into the era of resource wars.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
If the game is simply to get hold of Iran’s resources, why doesn’t the US just buy them? The Iranian population is fairly pro-American and it is the US’s own sanctions that are preventing them accessing Iran’s oil and gas.
The other problem I have with this theory is that this war began in 1968, and I don’t think the US administration was already planning for peak oil and the results of the 1979 Iranian revolution in those days, no matter how fiendishly clever one thinks US neocons are.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Information Clearing House is an excellent news resource.
Doesn’t Canada have the second highest reserves of oil in the world, not Iran?
Yes, what can we do to stop this madness? Our mainstream TV news is pretty diluted and lacking in depth. I’d be happy to help with compiling news but perhaps we just need to get informationclearinghouse out there?
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
eredwen Says: Ignorance of what is happening further endangers us all.
These are the truest words I have heard regarding all current world conflicts, and I’m in a really black mood about the middle east crisis today so I’ll have a little rant about it….
We can no longer blindly follow as truth the information which is fed to us by the mainstream western (corporate owned) media. I am grateful every single day for the internet and the access it gives me to independent news sources such as these, but the onus comes back on us as ordinary citizens to seek these resources, educate ourselves with them and act on what we learn by pressuring our governments to proceed accordingly.
I used to try and be tolerant towards people who are ignorant about what is really going with current world affairs, but since 911 and the broadening access to internet news my patience has all but run out. I so passionately believe that being accurately informed is critical to our democracy and the way we compel our governments to take action on these issues that effect us globally.
Information Clearning House is a website that I visit several times a day (along with my favourite leftwing NZ blogs), and another compulsory stop of mine for reliable world news is this website here:
http://www.commondreams.org/
It astonishes me to see Google aiding governments such as China censoring internet access to it’s citizens, when in a (my) perfect world they would do better to be filtering news sites such as Fox News.
Ain’t it wonderful that the internet offers us places to come bitch about such things
PS: Yes, it’s ALL about the oil!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
commondreams is good as is http://www.truthout.org
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
zANavAShi, eredwen
Herman/Chomski spelled out how mainstream media “works” in the late 80′s. Nothings changed. Manufacturing Consent is a more important book now than it was back then.
Mind you, degree of access to real information is arguably just a means of entrenching class structures…
Now I’m itching to rant. But I wont.
M
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Oh yes Gill, TruthOut is another of my favourite sites. I especially love all their snippets from Jon Stewart’s Daily Show (geeez I wish they would screen all his shows here instead of that pathetic excuse for a US news show Fox News hehe)
Mike, I also read and watch everything I can possibly find by Chomsky (although I don’t rely on him as my only source) and he has probably challenged my thinking of what creates democracy more than any other author. I agree with your comment about the relationship between access to real information / class structures. Hey, it’s a good day for a rant. Go for it
To Sam: I watched Al Gore’s Inconvenient Truth a few days ago and he has campaiging at a political level for several decades about these kinds of issues so I don’t believe for a moment that the US rightwing haven’t seen this coming and been making clandestine plans to maintain their dominance of everything that sustains the “American Consumerist Dream”. And why buy a country when you can just march in and occupy it huh?
PS: A very interesting article which puts the current Lebonese conflict in some historical perspective: http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0801/p09s02-coop.html
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
I wouldn’t say that this war started in 1968. There was a famous Israel launched war in 1967 but that was about other issues and of course that really started in 1948 when Israel was formed.
I wouldn’t say that this war is about Oil either – however you could argue that the Bush administration has “given the green light” to the Israelis to proceed with it because of the general mid-east situation which is about Oil.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
stuey Says: “however you could argue that the Bush administration has “given the green lightâ€? to the Israelis to proceed with it because of the general mid-east situation which is about Oil.”
Yah that’s a good point Stuey, and probably more accurate to say. So maybe it would therefore be fair to say that “we are not seeing an end to this conflict because of the US Oil agenda in the middle east”.
It certainly serves the US interests very well to see the middle east region unstable in this way, especially when they can demonise the muslims some more and claim it’s Iran supporting the instability.
(Revised) PS: Yes, the lack of peace process – it’s ALL about the oil!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
“There was a famous Israel launched war in 1967″. Oh yes Stuey, let’s define aggression as:
- My neighbours want to destroy me, always have and have declared intention to have another go at doing so;
- They have their fighter jets all rallied, and tanks moved up to the borders with troops in transport vehicles (all ready to attack).
So fearing the death of thousands of my citizens I pre-emptively destroy their military capability to do so. It is like sitting at home with the neighbours surrounding the house shouting I am going to kill you, and if I go out and start shooting them, I’m to blame?
Of course let’s shut up about Iran, the regime that executes and tortures teenagers for offences such as having consensual sex with people older than they are, the regime that does arm and fund suicide bombers, that rallies against Israel, the USA and the West in general. Let’s not protest about that. Let’s not burn an Iranian flag to show disgust at it being the second biggest executor in the world – and its suppression of dissent, its wholesale blatant discrimination of women throughout its criminal justice and political system. Let’s not give a damn about Iran wanting to eradicate Israel and acquire nuclear capability without abiding by IAEA inspections – until maybe a nuclear device goes off over Tel Aviv.
Of course Lebanon and Syria have no oil to speak of, so it’s a rather indirect way to take on Iran. Be far easier to attack it directly or bribe it for oil and be friendly towards it.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Right let me get this straight
If a country has oil, it’s all about the oil
If a country doesn’t have oil, it’s all about the oil
For example, what would explain you, weekly protests against a minor war in Lebanon.
But not one word on the murder of 300,000 civilians in Darfur
It wouldn’t be all about the oil would it?
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
It’s not oil. It’s almost always much cheaper to buy something than to fight a war for it – oil & gas are traded on a global market, and the US can buy what it needs.
The Iraq war and Israel’s war against Lebanon and the Palestinians is happening for exactly the same reason that Stalin occupied Eastern Europe after WW2 – a near-paranoid desire for security. America, Israel and the USSR all believe(d) that if they controlled enough territory their security was assured.
In reality, this doesn’t work – if the US invades Iran they will be faced with Iraq times four – Iran being that much bigger as well as better organised. The only way they will be able to sustain this (especially if North Korea opportunistically attacks the South) will be to move to conscription and a war economy – which will wreck their economy just as Russian militarism wrecked the Soviet Union (not to mention how two world wars and the attempted retention of an empire destroyed British economic power).
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
well gee, lets not consider that the US buys and refines the bulk of venezuela oil. chavez is a real friend under control there. if china and india buy iran oil its means they are not in the market for other oil.
that would have to be one of the dumbest conspiracy theories around. america can and does buy iranian oil. dont forget these are filthy capitalists.
it is about iranian islamist ideology. they want to re establish tha caliphate. moonbats say it is about oil so deflect attention and blame onto america and the west.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Derogatory words have been removed, please keep to frog’s terms of use, “attacks which seek to personally denigrate others are not acceptable”.
To the people who have had their posts removed and then questioned this recently. Your posts were removed by me not because of censorship of your views, but because of your offensive locker-room outbursts.
Frogblog seeks to maintain a civil atmosphere of debate and we reserve the right to edit or remove any posts that transgress this. Individual decisions may seem harsh, but it is a slippery slope and we want to nip bad behaviour in the bud. If you don’t like this, then there are plenty of other NZ politics blogs where you are free to post your hatred and bile.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Go Frog!
Insomniacs with moral standards rule…. well, at least when you’re the frogmaster!!
Back on the point:
America has many reasons to de-stabilise the political sitch in the middle-east, oil being a very potent one. But how about a bit of post-millenial apocalyptic, Southern Bible-belt thinking on behalf of Bush and his cronies?
I’m thinking the kind of hard-out nutcases who honestly believe that there will be a war centred on the ancient terrain of the Hebrew nation, where the kings of the North (?USA) and South (?palestinians, iraquis) will finally settle the argument of who’s Kingdom is to come – yep, political and defense agendas set by the script of the book of Revelation, a hallucinatory event in the life of St John, near the end of his life, which is believed literally by many Neocon US senators, and their leader George Bush.
Makes the plot of Armagheddon, the movie, look weak and over-reliant on special FX.
Does give a nice context for all the anti-semitism, and the far-right Christian groups lobbying “anonymously” during the last round of elections, though.
Something to ruminate upon, this is an opinion, folks, just that, no more.
cheers, katie
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
thanks to eredwen (and others) for the o/s news/site tips..(i’ve bookmarked them..)
but..(ahem)..can i note you have a superior global-focussed news/site here in new zealand…
this morning whoar.co.nz has stories on/links to twenty-five stories/items…
on topics/subjects ranging from the deeply serious..to the deeply frivolous..
(y’dont always have to look ‘off-shore’..y’know..
shed that cultural cringe..eh..?
it can be from here…and good..!..y’know…)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Good article in the csmonitor… here is another from Znet..
[EDIT: Sorry Gill, we couldn't have the full text of the article in this comments thread as it was way too long, so I have added the direct link to the article above. Cheers, frog]
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
It isn’t “the oil, stupid” it is “the oil profits, stupid”. Nothing in this has varied one millimeter from the requirement that the flow of oil from Iraq and Iran be reduced so as to increase the net worth of XOM and BP and Shell. The result on the ground is the same, but the thought processes of the people currently controlling the USA are not SIMPLY P(eople) for a NAC new American Century , they are also about the P(rofits) for a new American Century.
Either way I am happy enough to be here, and not paying taxes supporting them.
respectfully
BJ
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Thanks frog!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
“Doesn’t Canada have the second highest reserves of oil in the world, not Iran?”
Um, and how many mbpd will Canada be producing in 10 years time?
Iran?
Tar sands-based oil production cannot be scaled up to more than a few mbpd.
Canada’s conventional oil production is in decline and the tar sands can’t even keep pace with this production loss. The energy and capital needed to produce oil from tar sands is so much higher than the stuff in the ME that flows out of the ground.
Tar sands won’t save our car-based society any more than US taxpayer-subsidised corn-based ethanol.
And what’s the war about?
The trashing of Afghanistan/Iraq/Palestine/Lebanon are essentially the same thing:
The US/Israeli empire seeks to “teach the world a lesson: don’t mess with us or you’ll be bombed into the dark ages”.
Trouble is, the victims won’t lie down and surrender, and they are exposing the vulnerability of the empire for all to see.
The emperor has no clothes, and the oil’s getting mightily expensive…
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Katie, I found your post interesting and decided to do some googling on the evangelical connection. What I found was just downright creepy….
“For some evangelicals, Mideast war stirs hope” (Miami Herald)
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/living/15221578.htm
And creepiest of the creepy:
“The Rapture Index” (Rapture Ready)
http://www.raptureready.com/rap2.html
And these lunatics are George W Bush’s electoral support base. Creepy creepy creepy.
PS: Another excellent article Gill, cheers for that.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Nice link Gil. Very impressive bit of scholarship. respectfully BJ
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
zANavAShi,
thanks for the CS Monitor link.
Why is that paper consistently so far ahead of the rest of the US press in its op-ed choices?
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
tochigi Says: “Why is that paper consistently so far ahead of the rest of the US press in its op-ed choices?”
I am guessing it’s because CS Monitor is not owned by the corporate media.
If you ever find an opportunity to watch a movie called “Orwell Rolls In His Grave” then I urge you not to miss it. It’s the most powerful documentary I have seen about the current state of the US media and infinitely more extensive, thoroughly researched and balanced (pun intended) than “Outfoxed” in my opinion.
Website here: http://www.orwellrollsinhisgrave.com
It’s a shame that Outfoxed was more widely distributed then ORIHG because of it’s sensationalist value, but I guess that in itself is a commentary about the preferences of the mainstream US media audience. What else can you expect from a culture that has Anne Coulter books at the top of it’s best seller list (((sigh)))
Oops, sorry Frog I seem to keep dragging your Peak Oil thread a ways off topic here
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
American Progressives, Leftists and other intelligent people that I know of refer to it as “Faux” news. Sometimes we are not so charitable in the way we spell it either. respectfully BJ
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Ummm, I though it was all really Neil Armstrong on the Grassy Knoll taking a break from the moon landing faking while preparing the missile to hit the pentagon that was shaped like that Fiat in a Paris Tunnel in 1997?
Just as 2+2 does not equal 5, idle speculation + half-truths does not equal intelligent commentary.
The USA supports the destruction of Hamas and Hizbollah as they are Terrorist Organisations that delibrately attack civilian targets in Israel, (which is an ally). Remember suicide bombers usually attack buses, cafes, markets and shopping malls; unguided missiles are fired at towns without military targets.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Good link again. Heckfire, my family has a house in Sag Harbor. I know every street in the town… and probably the “basement” dweller as well – respectfully BJ
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
If you’d read through the links, which I doubt, you’d have seen that the civilian Israelis slain by Hezbollah missiles in the past 6 years (excluding the current battle) is in number, excruciatingly similar to the number of actual WMD’s found in Iraq. The Israelis messed up.
respectfully BJ
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Sam
If the game is simply to get hold of Iran’s resources, why doesn’t the US just buy them?
With what ? The USD has been backed by oil since the gold std was abandoned in 1971. When it’s not backed by the black stuff, then it has to fall in value. Looks like some chickens are coming home to roost.
Michael Meacher – who was sacked by Blair for telling the truth makes a good argument in a (UK) Telegraph article last June.
There you have it – in a nutshell – when you pay attention to what is really going on and ignore the posturing and huffing and puffing of so called world leaders.
And to address the comment about how long the ptb in the US have known about this mess, US48 oil production peaked in 1971. The attitude then is no different to the attitude now – solutions that could have been implemented may not be possible now. As one [free]market enthusiast said recently to me
No, I don’t think we’re creating a problem for the next generation. Think of all the jobs cleaning this mess up will create for them I was stunned.
Nuff said for now – back to work.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
The Hizbollah supports the destruction of USA and Israel as they are Terrorist States that delibrately attack civilian targets in Lebanon and Iraq, (which is an ally). Remember F16 bombers usually attack buses, cafes, markets and shopping malls; guided missiles are fired at towns without military targets.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
A great list of websites, and an excellent discussion, everyone!
Keep them/it coming.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
It would be wonderful to be able to discuss other issues as they arise… and share information.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Gill: I agree!
How about it frog?
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
ie. on the news tonight about the flooding. The hills that are shown, that have collapsed – where are the trees? I’ve been saying for years that you can’t strip the land of the forests, the trees and expect stability… it is crazy! I’m sorry for the farmer who loses his land but the farmer has to learn, surely?
:D:D
Plus I didn’t like seeing his sheep shorn in this cold weather
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
I agree Gill.
Apparently the slipped house(s) in the Hutt Valley were built on “landfilled” gullies, but those shown elsewhere would have been on land cleared of indigenous forest.
On TV news a few days ago they showed cast sheep in the South Island High Country being shorn in the deep snow…
The problem is keeping tired, hungry and probably pregnant sheep with heavy wet fleeces on their feet. That takes watchful and strong humans, so I guess it is partly a matter of economics. (However, I remember helping out in heavy snow in the 1970′s, and the farmer we were working with was tearful about the plight of his pregnant ewes.)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Rather random replies and comments follow.
Scott on the 1967 war: “It is like sitting at home with the neighbours surrounding the house shouting I am going to kill you, and if I go out and start shooting them, I’m to blame?”
To continue the metaphor, if I walk into somebody else’s house, boot them out and take up residence, can I really cry “self-defence” if the neighbours rally around in support of the home owner?
Given your politics, I would have expected you to back the Palestinians right to use force to reclaim the property that was stolen from them. Your description of the 1967 war reminds me a little of the Waikato war – when the Pakeha government invaded in “self defence” against the possibility of future resistence to colonial expansionism.
I don’t think much of Hizbollah, but armed resistance is never going to be anything but a nasty, brutal affair, and based on the statistics in the papers their are doing a much better job of hitting military targets and avoiding civilian casulties than Israel’s military is (not that that’s saying much). If western countries would maintain some basic decency in their foreign policies (e.g. stop providing Israel with money and guns when they repress Palestinians), it might be possible to say “You don’t need to fight – there’s an alternative”. At the moment that isn’t the case.
What bugs me about this whole peak oil theory, is the unwillingness to see this as an old-fashioned colonial war based on grabbing land. I dated the start of the war in this particular theatre to 1968 when the on-going exchanges between the Israeli military and Lebanon-based guerillas took hold, but of course the roots of the conflict goes back a lot further than that, at least to 1917 when the colonial powers decided they could give away other people’s land. I don’t see any evidence that the Israeli government sought US permission for this war, nor do I think its primarily a proxy war against Iran.
It’s a bit of a worry that the Peak Oil hypothesis is being dragged in to this as an explanation. It starts to sound like a silly conspiracy theory when you start ascribing the causes of all sorts of events to your pet issue. It also worries me that Frog seemed to think the Lebanon war wasn’t worth discussing until this connection came up (and while I’m off-topic – does anyone else feel the recent announcement about the fall in home ownership in NZ marks the final neo-liberal nail in the coffin of the Great Kiwi Dream? This feels to me like a major historical moment, it goes to the root of New Zealanders’ vision of the kind of society we want).
“And why buy a country when you can just march in and occupy it huh?”
That’s a rather expensive business. If a country is embarking on policies that hinder US access to its resources (Cuba/Vietnam come to mind), there is a vicious logic to the US resorting to military means, but Iran isn’t particularly socialist and cetainly isn’t planning to stop selling oil. I’d hazard that the US government’s enimity to Iran is based on (a) stupidity – believing their own demonisation and (b) paranoia about Iran’s traditional nationalism which does hinder US profit-making. Simply accessing the oil isn’t much to do with it.
Sorry I’m a bit long-winded and all-over the place on this one. I find it difficult to comment on this war without going on for ever.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Wars and occupations are often about access to resources or holding strategic locations in relation to resources.
e.g. the West Bank has water that Israel wants, so they keep colonising it and stealing the water resources.
Gaza: no great water resources, turn it into a giant prison camp.
southern Lebanon has water too, not the only reason to invade, but it must figure in there somewhere…
Afghanastan doesn’t have many resources (unless you count opium poppies) but it is a very strategic location in relation to other countries’ resources.
Iraq: nuff said.
North Korea: nuttin’ there, mate.
Iran: nuff said.
If the “free market” was such a sure thing when it comes to oil, why is China spending so much money all over the planet to OWN chunks of oil fields?
Don’t they know? They can just go out and buy it whenever they want.
No one said the oil-rich countries HAVE to sell their oil to anyone. At the moment they choose to. Might not stay that way though. Leave it in the ground longer, more money later…when everyone recognises we’re on the downslope, the game is over as far as “freely available if you have the money” goes.
so some former oil CEOs might just figure they will need a few military bases from which to politely demand that the oil will be available when they want it.
no conspiracy, just strategy. didn’t say it’s the right strategy, just someone’s strategy.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
I hope everyone reads this exceptional interview with Prof NoamChomksy (another “must read” author to put on our list!) from today’s emailed ICH (Information Clearing House):
“Apocalypse Near”
Interview With Noam Chomsky
Following intellectuals’ letter, Prof. Noam Chomsky explains his doctrine, discusses danger of Israel’s nukes compared to ‘Iranian threat,’ global media’s role in escalating Mideast conflict and US’s place in picture .
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14462.htm
I’m sorry, but I can’t wish you “happy reading”!
eredwen
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Chilling article eredwen:( Quite a few chilling articles on ICH this morning
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Gill:
Yes, very saddening read, and now on the breaking news there are multiple bomb threats out of Heathrow(?) British-born youth carrying the bombs in their hand luggage.
All very predictable … What is that quote?
“History teaches that man does not lean from history.”
Tragic times ahead.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Woops! That should read “man does not learn from History.”
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
perhaps the hethrow thing is just part of muslim awareness week
cheers
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Sam: Your interesting post has not been ignored. My reply is still brewing amid the chaos of my day!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
good article in the Guardian suggesting the real aims of the Israeli destruction of Lebanese infrastructure. Very convincing argument too.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/comment/0,,1840842,00.html
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Well said poffa!
It is about time “the West” became aware of what life is like in small countries who are “on the wrong side” of Israel’s and its BIG ally’s interests.
It is tragic when young people think they have to die (and kill others) to make it happen.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
I think the saddest thing about reading the Guardian report is, reading the replies… so many people so full of hatred, on both ‘sides’…. and didn’t the ‘peaceniks’ say all this hatred would happen? Yes yes yes! Damn and blast bush and bliar! (Am I allowed to say this on this site?) :O
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Here we go
http://www.alternet.org/story/40042/
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
has anyone noticed how america & israel forced syria out of lebanon only a few months ago, softening lebanon up nicely for this invasion?
here’s another couple of sites which offer some explanations:
the first gives the theory that the destabilization of the region is a strong reason:
“The goal of the War Party is to keep up the momentum for intervention created by the Iraq war and allow the conflict there to naturally spill over Iraq’s borders into Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, and beyond. ”
http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=9335
the second (very long one, 3 pages, with maps) points out that southern lebanon hosts a strategically important oil pipeline terminal and puts forward even deeper darker theories about israel’s ambitions across the whole region.
” The psychological impact of Tapline on the Israelis from its opening during 1950, should not be underestimated. Robbed of what they believed to be their historical birthright, by a lack of oil to drive their war machine on to a Greater Israel, they were now forced to watch impotently as that very oil flowed by, tantalizingly close to their border on the Golan Heights. On any single day, when the wind was not blowing and the air was still, they could hear the muted hum and swishing as nearly 500,000 barrels of sweet black crude oil flowed straight past, on its way to Sidon and the export markets”
http://www.joevialls.co.uk/subliminalsuggestion/oil.html
“If the game is simply to get hold of Iran’s resources, why doesn’t the US just buy them?”
the game is not simply to obtain resources for the aggressors (israel & the usa), but for these countries to control oil – so that, for instance china will be beholden to the usa. it’s about maintaing the us dollar as the international oil currency.
“Doesn’t Canada have the second highest reserves of oil in the world, not Iran?”
i thought canada has natural gas.
“Of course let’s shut up about Iran, the regime that executes and tortures teenagers for offences such as having consensual sex with people older than they are, the regime that does arm and fund suicide bombers, that rallies against Israel, the USA and the West in general. ”
well new zealanders rally against israel & the usa too!
did you not know that iran was beginning to establish a fragile democracy? america basically destroyed it by playing hardball with the administration in iran & further radicalizing the country & discrediting the democratic element.
did you know even before that, iran had a democracy which the usa overthrew, establishing the brutal, hated rule of the shah, which made the population receptive to the radical muslim government which later expelled the shah.
“a near-paranoid desire for security.”
this may be how a fleeting majority of americans were tricked into supporting the invasion of iraq, but it is far from the motivation of the governments involved.
“a bit of post-millenial apocalyptic, Southern Bible-belt thinking on behalf of Bush and his cronies?”
bush isn’t a real christian. he just “found god” as a way to expunge his record as a drug abuser & to court a crucial voting bloc.
” Iran isn’t particularly socialist and cetainly isn’t planning to stop selling oil.”
it’s planning to stop selling oil IN US DOLLARS, that’s the problem for america. – just as iraq was planning to do before bush fixed that problem.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
(From moveon)
Dear Friends,
As the awful civilian death toll rises above 1000 in Lebanon and Israel, people around the world are seeking a place to voice their frustration and concern. Over the last 4 days, 200,000 people from 148 countries have signed the ceasefire petition. At this rate, we could soon be the largest global online petition in history.
The pressure is working. The global outcry over this crisis has pushed the Ambassadors to the UN Security Council to work around the clock to achieve an immediate ceasefire.
The latest word is that the Council may be close to a final vote today or tomorrow, but we’ve been this close before and negotiations have fallen apart. We need more pressure now to close the deal.
Please forward this email on, spread the word to your friends, family and colleagues, post a link on your blog, bring up the campaign in discussions, and urgently encourage people around you to join this global wave of protest by signing up at the link below:
http://www.ceasefirecampaign.org/mo/en.html
The pressure is working. Let’s ratchet it up.
With hope,
Ricken Patel, Ceasefire Campaign
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
A “MUST READ” from ICH … about the Bush Administration’s deciding what its attitude is to Iran.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14497.htm
… “Have a nice day” !!!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Thanks again eredwen. The more I read about the covert meddling and plans of the USA for the middle eastern the more I feel sickened (if it was even possible to feel sicker about american foreign policies).
Since this is a good thread for sharing news links, here is another website I visit daily by the Center for Media and Democracy:
http://www.prwatch.org
The guys from this PR Watch website have made some excellent movies such as “Weapons of Mass Deception”, another sickening documentary about the use of the american media as a war propoganda machine. The site is also an excellent source of news about corporate green-washers and political white-washers.
An article of interest I read there this week regarding the Lebanese crisis:
http://www.prwatch.org/node/5066
And thanks also to Andrew, that was a really good read. Totally agree with your comments about Bush being a pseudo-christian. An excellent (but creepy) documentary to watch on this subject is “With God on Our Side: George W. Bush and the Rise of the Religious Right in America”
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0431468/
I am such an indie-documentary-aholic
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Hi some of u may be interested in this petition
Subject: Help Stop the Bloodshed in the Middle East
Dear friends,
Right now a tragedy is unfolding in the Middle East. Hundreds of civilians have died in the bombings in Lebanon, Israel and Palestine and the death toll is rising every day.
UN Secretary General Kofi Annan has called for an immediate ceasefire and UK Prime Minister Tony Blair has joined Annan in calling for the deployment of international troops to the Israel-Lebanon border. This is the best proposal yet to stop the violence, but for it to succeed other global leaders need to get behind it immediately.
I have just signed a petition urging regional and global leaders to speak out and support Kofi Annan’s proposal. If people around the world can persuade their governments to unite in demanding a ceasefire, all sides in this conflict will be pressured to stand down. Can you sign the petition too?
http://www.ceasefirecampaign.org
The petition will be sent to key regional and global leaders and publicized in major newspapers in the Middle East, US and Europe. With enough signatures we can help pressure our leaders to stop the violence.
Thanks!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Bush ‘helped Israeli attack on Lebanon’ to reduce the threat of possible Hizbullah retaliation against Israel should the US launch a military strike against Iran. Should we be surprised?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1843919,00.html
(Revised) PS: It’s all about Iran, which is all about dominating middle east oil, which is ALL about the Peak Oil crisis.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Found a more comprehensive article than the Guardian one here:
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article1219021.ece
Seymour Hersch’s New Yorker article that the Guardian and Independent refer to:
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060417fa_fact
The more this kind of news surfaces the easier it becomes to connect the dots Lebanon…Iran…Oil
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Peak Oil is a myth?
I don’t claim to be a expert. But i am highly skeptical about peak-oil. Climate change, Yes. polution Yes.
Are there better ways to live yes, but peak oil to me seems like a plot within a plot(i.e. record profits undreampt off, creating massive debt in the world for a new world order cementing of control etc)
According to some REAL investigative reporting, Greg Palast in his book “armed madhouse” blows the lid off the peak oil “scam”.
http://www.gregpalast.com/section/articles
That’s not to say that climate change and the mesage nature is giving about the way we allow ourselves to be conducted is anyless relevant:)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
even,
peak oil is NOT a myth.
oil formed from biotic processes millions of years ago, storing up the sun’s energy as highly concentrated hydrocarbons.
humans began exploiting this finite store of energy in the 1880s, and production took off during the First World War.
Until the 1970s, the USA was the world’s largest oil producer, but since that country’s production peak in 1970, it’s domestic production is down from over 11 mbpd to about 8mbpd. It uses 20.5 mbpd. Even with the addition of Alaska and deep water Gulf of Mexico oil, it never managed to return to its pre-1971 peak.
When an oil producing region has produced about 55% of its ultimate recoverable reserves, it goes into terminal decline. The oil doesn’t stop flowing, but the rate of extraction declines on a long-term downward trend.
The UK North Sea oil fields peaked in 1999, and are declining at alarming rates (5-10% per year). Outside the Persian Gulf, most oil producing countries are in decline already, with Russia probably the most notable exception. But Russia may be on the verge of peaking too, along with Saudi. If that happens, and Mexico’s production drops off as fast as expected, 2005-2008 is a strong candidate for the global peak period.
The fact that oil companies are reaping massive profits from this event is a symptom of imminent peak oil, not “a plot within a plot”.
The oil majors (esp. Exxon Mobil and BP) want to dismiss PO for as long as possible because they fear punitive taxes.
Greg Palast is talking nonsense when he calls PO a plot or myth. He reels off countless assertions with not a shred of evidence. He also rudely misrepresents M. King Hubbert’s original thesis.
I strongly urge you to read Richard Heinberg’s letter of rebuttal to Palast:
http://www.energybulletin.net/17914.html
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Myth or not?
Most of what you posted doesn’t contradict what Palast’s investigations have inferred. He has a pretty good track record also(not that that means truth). part from that, i like the guy!
Oil companies reaping record profits is a fundamental tenant of what his conclusions are about(and what i posted).If you want leverage over Europe for example, what better way? Contemporary world events and democratic shifts have gotten rather in sync during recent times, no?
In many ways it’s academic; oil use pollution in it’s many forms is symbolic of our failure to work together in societies with nature n each other in harmony, not rigid exploitation.
I looked at your link, thks for direct reply. Palast is going on documents/statements/schemes he has come across that contradict the “official” why they really are doing what they are doing accepted dogma, i believe in where he is coming from. Further than that, i don’t know, i’m no expert.
Slightly different tangent:i was wondering if anyone knows, who actually owns the New Zealand Reserve Bank? It works in co-ordination with government etc but who owns it?
A few things i have read about Federal/Reserve banks etc makes me curious, and with our new coins and talk of inflation which i saw in some media, it has made me wonder?
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
the nz reserve bank is owned by the nz government – don’t worry, it’s not like the american one.
the reason nz is starting to experience some inflation over the official maximum allowable level is that our national debt levels are utterly crushing & have been enhanced by the overvalued dollar & an adjustment is necessary. the government & reserve bank don’t want to admit this by simply raising the official inflation target, so they simply turn a blind eye to the increasing inflation.
if they admitted it honestly & raised the inflation target, then the government policy over the last two decades & all the rhetoric employed in its support will be admitted to be damaging the country & only serving interest groups.
regarding peak oil, yes there are some theories that oil is being constantly produced from rock in the depths of the earth & that oil wells will keep replenishing themselves.
even if this is true, the whole near-east situation is still propelled by oil. the oil peak would make this motivation more accute, but the motive is still there regardless whether this theory is true or not.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
even,
I read Palast’s essays on this when they came out a few months ago.
He frames PO as “Big Oil+Bushists plot to screw us all”, i.e. it’s a blame game.
But actually, PO is simply a fact of geology. A “plot” by mother nature.
At some stage we reach maximum output, and then move into inexorable decline.
The current theses of Campbell, Deffeyes, et al are built on a combination of geophysics, statistical analysis and evidence of past cases.
Peak Oil is not a matter of if but when. 2005? 2010? 2015?
Take your pick. Petrol will keep getting dearer and airline fuel “surcharges” will soon be more than the actual “airfares”.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
This current incursion is more a case of Israel defending itself and providing a shock and awe response to terrorism, as they have a right to do. The killing of so many civilians is repulsive, but if Hezbollah hides in civilian houses then it is a tragic inevatibility. Thankfully a ceasefire has now been called.
Regarding oil, it seems ironic to me that most in NZ cry moral outrage about the Iraq invasion and Israeli military incursions etc, yet we still happily drive our 4 cars per household powered by crude from 14000 kms away… We are as oil addicted as the yanks but WAY more in denial.
IMHO NZ should get drilling that Great South Basin ASAP. Otherwise, once the inevitable global military response to peak oil occurs, we will be left high and dry as oil production is taken offline. We have the luxury of distance to save us from any military threat ourselves, but we are also at the end of a very long oil supply chain…
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
“This current incursion is more a case of Israel defending itself and providing a shock and awe response to terrorism, as they have a right to do. The killing of so many civilians is repulsive, but if Hezbollah hides in civilian houses then it is a tragic inevatibility. ”
Ah, hello? You’re joking, right? “response to terrorism”? WTF? The capture of two SOLDIERS is terrorism? Can you provide a list of terrorist acts by Hizb’allah in the last six years? No? Didn’t think so.
Israel is in defiance of countless UNSC resolutions spanning 58 years.
Israel illegally holds hundreds of POWs.
Israel has made dozens of illegal infractions on Lebanese air and land in the last six years.
But you say “they have a right to” kill thousands of civillians and lay waste an entire country’s infrastructure because “Hezbollah hides in civilian houses”. Yeah, right. Sounds like a really morally defensible stance, eh?
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
“The capture of two SOLDIERS is terrorism?”
Actually, the killing of three Israeli soldiers and capture of two more is an act of war. Of course Hezbollah has a mafia-like control of the Lebanese government, so the Israeli response is logical, although overwhelming in scale.
There is no negotiation with these fanatic Islamic groups- the Israeli withdrawal from southern Lebanon and the Gaza Strip proved that. No thought was given to opening negotiation with Israel for lasting peace; only the tired refrain of death and destruction, forever. The land gained only provided these terrorist groups with a more convenient place to launch missiles.
Israel’s problem seems intractable- but they must destroy existential threats or face oblivion. The Islamic militants want the complete destruction of Israel, the US, and the modern world. It is very hard to understand why anyone in their right mind would support Hezbollah over Israel in this regard.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
“The Islamic militants want the complete destruction of Israel, the US, and the modern world.”
When I read comments like this, I feel it’s people in the west who are the fanatics, insisting on demonising their opponents beyond all reason. Obvously you can’t negotiate with people who insist on framing confrontations in this manner. I don’t have much time for Hizbollah and co. but descibing them as being out to destroy “the modern world” is simply rubbish.
To claim that Israel’s withdrawl from Gaza was an opening for negotiation of a lasting peace shows no understanding of the conflict in Palestine – suppose Saddam had offered to withdraw from selected suburbs of Kuwait City – would that have been considered a reasonable compromise and an opportunity to establish peace?
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
uk_kiwi,
Which came first: Islamic terrorism of Zionist terrorism?
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
This is how Michael Bassett charcterises the Middle East in his Dominion Post column: “a region that hates democracy, subjugates women and minorities, breeds excessively, has no respect for human rights and justice, and perverts the meaning of martyrdom by killing for its religion.”
It’s hard to imagine peace being established while this sort of hate speech is promoted.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Oh, to answer tochigi – Islamic actually, Zionism only got going in the 19th century. Of course, it’s no more “Islamic” terrorism than the Dresden bombing was “Christian” terrorism.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Sam,
Can you provide us with examples of what you are talking about?
None of these groups existed until created by Israel, so how could there have been any Islamic terrorism?
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
I think we have to evolve beyond “he hit me first” arguments to settle this as the first “hit” had to have taken place before any of the great grandparents of the current protagonists were born.
We have to recognize both the artificiality of the creation of the state of Israel, and the blatantly genocidal nature of the threats made against it’s existence by the Islamic world. Facts not easily resolved or balanced, and while the rockets and bombs fall, the underlying problems CANNOT be resolved.
The Green party might handle this more circumspectly than simply demanding that a people with their backs to the wall (and that IS how the Israeli’s perceive their position… that they “cannot afford to lose even once”), behave as though their opponents who have repeatedly called for their country to cease to exist, and who have 8,000 to 10,000 rockets stockpiled within range of Israeli cities, will simply not use them.
The Israelis for their part, would be well advised to deal with the land claims of the Lebanese and Hezbollah, and end the confusion of Shebaa farms, to ensure that there is no cause for such war preparations. To actually take a few “hits” and turn the other cheek, so as to turn the moderates against the militants. The alternative is war with all of Islam.
Israel exists now. If it is made to “go away” the slaughter will be immense and a fair number of us who have been quick to criticize one side will suddenly be realizing that the situation there is not just “one” side’s failing but both side’s impossible demands of each other. Trust?
How can a Palestinian or a Lebanese trust Israeli troops now?
How can an Israeli trust a Palestinian or a member of Hezbollah now?
How can the Israelis trust that 10 thousand rockets will not become 30,000 and rain down on them as the opening battle in the war that destroys them? When the people supplying the rockets and the people obtaining them both expect them to be used.
How, in cultures where revenge is regarded as a sacrament, can vengeance be set aside permanently and peace be regarded as more important than “making them pay for what they did to whoever”.
… and yet these peoples MUST learn to live together or genocide will be the result.
Too much damage has been done. Like children on the playground, they need an adult to separate them and make peace…
Unfortunately all we have are politicians…
respectfully
BJ
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
sam..despite being a former labour minister…bassett has been slightlyto the left of genghis kahn for decades now…
he makes the extreme right wing in national look like a bunch of bleeding heart liberals…
it’s best to just ignore him….(he is a very angry man..)
phil(whoar.co.nz0
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Tochigi – the behaviour of various Islamic armies over the ages qualifies as terrorism in my book, as does the behaviour of armies of every other persuasion, of course.
BJ – likening to the people of the region to “children in a playground” is patronising as hell. And what culures are you referring to as regarding revenge as a sacrament? Further, why is demanding a state be removed “genocidal”? States aren’t people. Was the dissolution of the East German state genocide?
The Israelis feel they have their backs to the wall, so, rather more literally, do the Palestinians. You are correct to say the Israelis cannot trust that their opponents will not use their rockets. Neither can Palestinians trust the Israelis not to use their air force.
What if Lebanon invaded Israel in order to remove the bases used for launching strikes against them in 1982, 1995, 2003, 2006 amongst other years?
“Israel exists now. If it is made to “go awayâ€? the slaughter will be immense and a fair number of us who have been quick to criticize one side will suddenly be realizing that the situation there is not just “oneâ€? side’s failing but both side’s impossible demands of each other.”
Palestine existed, it was made to go away and the slaughter has been immense – do you seriously think Palestinians are just going to shrug their shoulders and give up their struggle? Their “impossible demands” are a homeland and right of return to their land, demands that Israel rejects for the Palestinians while insisting the Palestinians agree to for Israelis.
Personally I think Israel has blown it. There was a time when the Palestinians could have accepted a compromise, but Israel’s continually increasing territorial demands and expansion of its colonies in the West Bank have ruined any chance of that. Depressing as it may be, I think this situation will ultimately be settled by brute force.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Sam,
I wholeheartedly agree with everything in your post except the first paragraph and last sentence.
The Crusader wars were hardly “Islamic terrorism”, IMO.
And I don’t think brute force will “settle” this problem of Israel/Palestine.
The only thing that can settle it is a single secular non-apartheid state with equal rights for all ethnicities and religions and the right of return for Palestinian refugees since 1948 and their decendents.
In other words, true democracy rather than some racist incarnation the Zionists have created and which is propped up by the U.S. empire.
Unfortunately, this can only come about after the U.S. is no longer able to prop up Israel, so we’re probably looking at another 10 to 15 years of bloodshed.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Palestine was never a country, it was a region. Largely subservient to the Turks in recent history. Nor was the region made to go away, it largely was exactly where most Palestinians still are. The problem created was that those displaced or soon to-become muslims in a Jewish state by the Fiat of the UN and some other assorted fools, were promised, by other Arab states, that the Israeli’s would be driven into the Sea. Jews and Muslims USED to live there peacefully… but that was a long LONG time ago.
It didn’t work out. A lot of muslims who ran away became permanently displaced refugees. A lot of additional land was added to the originally defined nation of Israel and a lot of resentment and problems and all manner of hell were born of the Balfour decision… at least that is my understanding of the history. I haven’t studied it all THAT much.
As far as being patronizing, you betcha I am. If you didn’t notice, I wished for an adult to show up and bemoaned the absence of adults on the world stage. So I am being patronizing of every sovereign state and so-called diplomat on the planet. I have observed MANY times that the lot of them behave like spoiled children rather than responsible adults… and that’s when they’re on their best behaviour.
=========================
How do you plan to remove Israel? More to the point how does IRAN plan to remove Israel? I haven’t seen it suggested that it be removed to West Australia… no indeedy.
As for the impossible demands, the first impossible demand is amnesia… forget the dead, forget the past, work for the future.
You are right, Israel did blow it. I agree with that because I said way earlier that the Israeli’s blew it. They should’ve let Hezbollah have the two soldiers and had Mossad pick up a couple of militants at some later date… and if all of them survived, trade. The big bombing campaign only played into the hands of the folks sitting on all those rockets. Israel should’ve played to WORLD opinion, not its internal conservative movement or the Shrub’s opinion. It needs the good opinion of the moderate Islamic world to permit its peaceful survival.
There is no “right of return” for Israelis. What are you talking about, sending them back to Russia and Poland? As for a homeland for Palestinians, there is or was, the beginnings of one being created on the West Bank and in Gaza. The Israelis definitely screwed the pooch there by letting their own militants build armed camps in the middle of the Palestinian territories, and building a wall that de-facto claimed more Palestinian territory… but that doesn’t change the equation on the ground NOW. You are doing the same thing as everyone else. You are trying to make someone wrong and someone else right so you can solve this in terms of right and wrong.
The guy who was wrong however, is long dead, and the people in the dubiously identified territories of Israel, Palestine and South Lebanon have to do something very amazing to sort the mess out. Blame doesn’t help.
The world expects this to ultimately be settled by brute force. The Israeli’s expect it to be settled by brute force, the Iranians expect it to be settled by brute force. You expect it to be settled by brute force and I too expect it to be settled by brute force.
If it is settled that way it can only end badly for everyone on the planet… and Israel will be gone, and possibly Tehran and other places as well. The only living jews will be those still in Russia or the USA or here, and Islam will be at war with the USA while China sits back and watches for its time.
But given those expectations, isn’t the Israeli reaction less astonishing?
So the actions of the Shrub, encouraging Israel to pound on Hezbollah, are particularly reprehensible. It would be nice to have a grown up who speaks English running the USA… but Putin already has a job
The actions of the Israelis and Hezbollah however, are strictly according to the script of an eye-for-an-eye.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
bjchip: That sounds very rational, and much of what you say makes a lot of sense. However:
1. Lebanon is not an “Islamic Nation” (just as Israel is not just a “Jewish State”.) They both are made up of different ethnic and religious groups.
A chunk of Lebanese land and its people is illegally under Israeli control, and the current situation, long planned by the Israelis, was/is to appropriate more of Lebanon (and its water.)
2. Hezb’Allah is not a “terrorist” organisation. It works for all Lebanese, regardless of religion and ethnic background. They seem to be an impressive lot, from what I’ve been reading. Members of Hisb’Allah are well respected and have been elected to the Lebanese Government.
3. What about the various roles played by the Americans:
The long touted plans of the current US Administration (and its attached Crazies?) and the constant repetition of the word “Iran” along with “nucular (sic) weapons” and “terrrsts” (sic)
“Terror + American-Supplied Weapons=SICK” (sick joke, but I’ll find a website to illustrate!)
I think a lot of the problem here is testosterone plus human evolution (big brain), and that is a difficult mix to deal with!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
“Palestine was never a country”
British Mandate Palestine was not a “country”, but if you are going to go down that track, how many independent countries can you name in the Middle East as of 1945?
OK, so a region, one with a population of Arab Muslims and Christians, and Jews.
The Zionists terrorized most of the Arabs into leaving their homes, and subsequently brought in a new population of Jews and built a “country” on stolen land.
So, back to the present, we have an apartheid racist state of colonizers and the disposessed. With a diaspora of more disposessed.
No need to drive the Jews into the sea, just have a secular, single non-apartheid, non-racist state on the former British Mandate Palestine with one person one vote. No preferential treatment for certain religions/ethnicities. No driving anyone out. Just letting people return.
“More to the point how does IRAN plan to remove Israel?”
FFS, all this crap about Iran destroying Israel is unnecessary when the Israelis are doing such a fine job on their own. How will Iran “remove Israel” when Israel is arned to the teeth with the latest U.S. munitions and several hundred nuclear missiles?
No brute force is EVER going to “remove Israel”. Only Israeli blunders such as we have witnessed over the past month plus the loss of U.S. monetary and military support would lead to the end of viability of the racist apartheid state that is Israel.
The Zionists tried to remove all the Arabs from Palestine and they only partially succeeded. Then they tried to build a fortress and steal the agricultural land and water of all the remaining Arabs. But the Palestinians are not going to go away any more than the Jews are. So when the U.S. can no longer support Israel, they will have no other choice but to become a state based on equal rights for all.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
To add to my post above above …
I wrote my last before seeing the four posts above it … so apoligies for the bits that no longer “fit” !
A comment on the current discusion:
Adults AND children BOTH exhibit “HUMAN behaviour”
… Pretty awful sometimes, isn’t it?
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
tochigi:
Well said! (and Well said again!)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Andrew, good to know about reserve bank, thks.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
bj:
Childish behaviour … ?
It has just occured to me (linking two different frogblog threads together) … Maybe we should send “our own bjchip” over to the Middle East to “paddle their bottoms” on behalf of frogblog of Aotearoa/NZ .
Wonderful picture!
Then you could return via WashingtonDC and the WhiteHouse/Pentagon to do the same … unless, of course, some naughty, un-disciplined, would-be, suicide bombers get you on the Trans Atlantic flight.
Just in case you are not yet sure about our Kiwi sense of humour, this is a very friendly joke … “with respect!”
eredwen
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
“Hezb’Allah is not a “terroristâ€? organisation. It works for all Lebanese, regardless of religion and ethnic background. They seem to be an impressive lot, from what I’ve been reading. Members of Hisb’Allah are well respected and have been elected to the Lebanese Government. ”
Unfreakinbelieveable. The aim of Hezballah is the TOTAL destruction of a democratic nation. They are supplied with money, weapons and fighters by the most brutal, repressive, undemocratic regimes in the region (primarily Iran). As for their ‘community work’, I’m sure the Italian mafia does great community work too. Might I remind you that it was Hezbollah who pioneered the use of brainwashed youths as sucide bombers? Clearly “an impressive lot”, as you say.
Obviously they are not working for all Lebanese, otherwise they would not be provoking Israel- they would work through the political system rather than attack unilaterally. They ignore the UN too- as I write this, they are still attacking Israel despite the ceasefire.
How you can possibly defend an awful group like this is beyond me.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Eredwen
With respect
, this is one of the cases where I as a loving parent would be unlikely to paddle anyone. At least not in the middle east.
The Shrub however, would get horsewhipped, tarred, feathered, ridden out of town on a rail and best of all, fined ALL his money and forced to live like the folks he’s stepped on all his life…
With him I would not trust myself to hold my temper… Cheney or Rumsfeld either. The true authors of this awful mess are clear enough to me. Remember where things stood as Clinton handed over the reigns to the Shrub? They were close to figuring out how to actually make peace happen. Really close. The Shrub did NOTHING to further that process. Better he’d stayed in the kindergarten reading “my pet goat” cause when he DID do something it was to make things much much worse.
“In your guts you know he’s nuts”.
I envy the Russians… they’ve got a President who actually speaks and understands English.
respectfully
BJ
PS I don’t think I identified Lebanon as an Islamic nation… it is something I know is not the case and so I would be unlikely to even imply it. Did I do so in some way? – BJ
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
“The aim of Hezballah is the TOTAL destruction of a democratic nation.”
No. The aim of Hizb’allah is to defend Lebanon from Zionist invaders and occupiers. i.e. secure the release of illegally held prisoners, the return of Lebanese territory Israel is illegally occupying, and the cessation of Israel’s constant violation of Lebanese land, sea and air space by Israeli forces in definace of UN resolutions.
Israel is supplied with money, weapons and jet fuel by the world’s most powerful terrorist state, the United States of America.
Might I remind you that it was Israel that has invaded and occupied Lebanon several times, and has continued to harrass Lebanon right up to this latest outrage.
“They ignore the UN too- as I write this, they are still attacking Israel despite the ceasefire. ”
Gee, I wonder how many UN resolutions Israel has ignored for how many decades now? More than every other country/group in the world put together.
How you can possibly defend an awful racist apartheid state like this is beyond me.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
uk_kiwi:
You have written:
“Hezbolla hides in civilian houses.”
“The killing of three Israeli soldiers and the capture of two more is an act of war” … There is no negotiating with these fanatic Islamic groups …”
“The land gained only provided these terrorist groups with a more convenieint place to launch missiles”
“The aim of Hezballah is the total destruction of a democratic nation.”
“They are supplied … by the most brutal, repressive, undemocratic regimes in the region (primarily Iran).”
…….
I supect that everyone on frogblog has read, heard or “viewed” all of the above. I think the difference is that many of us have followed these statements through to find their sources, and also have sought out other “points of view.” We are talking about human beings (in all their complexity and vulnerability) on both sides of this “war”, and about the manipulation by other parties (for personal or corporate gain).
I was born during the Second World War in NZ. My female teachers never married (the men were dead), many school friends never knew their fathers. My father, a teacher, said that most of the brightest boys in the top classes that he had taught died in WW2. He carried feelings of grief (and guilt) about this to his grave.
In addition, during my youth, I regularly saw elderly men, who had lost limbs in as young men in WW1, moving around slowly on inadequate crutches for the whole of their adult lives.
My brother spent several tours of duty in Vietnam as a doctor in a civilian hospital run by the NZ Armed Forces … he commented at the time, “We are on the wrong side.”
Then, later, I married a partner of my age who was a child in Germany, living daily under the bombs that “our side” were dropping.
(Our children have the great advantage of knowing that “people” create wars, not “Hezb’Allah”, or “the Jews”, or “the Americans”, or … BUT HUMAN BEINGS!
WAR IS NOT A CHESS GAME nor a Rugby match. This is not “strategy” and “tactics”. This is the killing and maiming of Human Beings … babies, chidren, pregnant women … people who have nothing to do with the causes of the conflict. This is the destruction of human lives, by other human beings.
I HATE what is going on, and I have to say that your picture of the situation is typical of what happens when “sides” are drawn.
To understand these terrible happenings for the Israeli, Lebanese and Palestinian people (children, women, men) including those doing the fighting is important. It is much better to try to understand all points of view now, rather than find out later how we have allowed ourselves to be manipulated and deceived. (By other people and by our natural tenedency to “take sides”.)
Kia ora!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
ROFLMAO @ bjchip. I’m sure there are a few of us here who would pay your plane fare to Crawford just to see that
This is such a terrific thread I’ve had it open in one of my browser tabs for three days refreshing the page very 15mins or so. I am especially enjoying reading your input tochigi and eredwen, you’re welcome for espresso (fresh roasted organic of course) at my place any day girlfriend.
uk_kiwi, I just don’t know what to do with peeps like you who are so entrenched in that kind of polarised anti-islamic bigotry. Eredwen has made some very excellent comments to counter the myth that Hezb’Allah (thanks for educating me on the correct spelling of it BTW) is NOT a terrorist organisation and I would like to also emphasise the point that they are not proxy warriors of Iran.
I have also been making it my business to learn more about Hezb’Allah lately, from as many different objective sources as possible, and from everything I read there is no way we should be lumping them in with terrorist organisations such as Al-Queda et al. And neither is there any evidence for your comparison to the Mafia which to me is just another one of those debating strategies that seek to demonise “the other”
I will make it very clear though, that I am not a Hezb’Allah apologist. I vigorously object to the practice of storing weapons in domestic residences and employing weaponry with dubious targetting abilities and I agree with Human Rights Watch assessment that they too have committed war crimes during this conflict HOWEVER that is the Hezb’Allah army.
So if you want to debate the evils of the Hezb’Allah army versus the Israeli army then go for your life guys, but it doesn’t change the fact that Hezb’Allah have done a helluva lot of good in their local communities and are a legitmate democratically election political party and they must be respected as such – just as Hamas should – and be included in the political dialogue.
Hey did anybody see that interview recently with the young chap from Hezb’Allah? I really enjoyed that and I was also very encouraged to see him interviewed with such respect for the intelligent young man that he is. I thought to myself at the time how more non-sensationalist televised dialogue like this would go a long way towards peace and understanding between east and west.
And then I thought to myself what the FRELL are the mainstream media doing to faciliatate this process, which must surely begin from the re-humanising of middle eastern people in the way the journalist did with this Lebanese youth. (yeh, yeh, I know this is a fave soapbox of mine)
And this week I switched on the gogglebox to watch that absolutely farcical excuse for an interview with Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and I felt like sending a prayer to Allah to please send some terrorists to bomb all the friggin corporate news networks.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
bj:
“Fined all his money” sounds good ! ,
“That is the only thing that his sort of people can understand” … (to misuse a quote from “his sort of people” !!
e
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Oooops Eredwen, we just cross-posted then so I hadn’t read your latest reply when I was typing mine.
You go gurl!!!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
eredwen,
Amen.
zANavAShi,
Thanks for taking the time to read and thanks for your kind words.
As my T-shirt says, “Justice the seed, peace the flower”
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Gee, thanks for calling me a bigot. Sure, I don’t like Islamic militants in general, but I think thats fair enough considering they are quite happy to kill commuters here (albeit UK born rather than hezbollah).
I hate what is going on in the ME too- but it does not pay to be blind to either side. Israel is a bully that likes throwing its weight around, has broken many agreements and has killed thousands of civilians. However it has a right to exist, and a right to defend itself.
Hezbollah is also an insidious organisation funded and supplied by Iran. This is indisputable- the rockets landing in Israel are Iranian! IMHO the mafia comparison is valid, as through social work and funding they gradually become the authority figures in communities and then eventually the government. This is the mode of operation of Hamas as well. Note they should have been disarmed under UN res 1559 and 1680, which they ignored.
Quote from a the Hezbollah program that speaks for itself:
“Our primary assumption in our fight against Israel states that the Zionist entity is aggressive from its inception, and built on lands wrested from their owners, at the expense of the rights of the Muslim people. Therefore our struggle will end only when this entity is obliterated. We recognize no treaty with it, no cease fire, and no peace agreements, whether separate or consolidated.
We vigorously condemn all plans for negotiation with Israel, and regard all negotiators as enemies, for the reason that such negotiation is nothing but the recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist occupation of Palestine. Therefore we oppose and reject the Camp David Agreements, the proposals of King Fahd, the Fez and Reagan plan, Brezhnev’s and the French-Egyptian proposals, and all other programs that include the recognition (even the implied recognition) of the Zionist entity.”
What exactly is Israel supposed to do in the face of this kind of declaration?
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
bj: “… Lebanon as an Islamic nation…”
After a quick look … I don’t know where I got THAT idea from … Sorry!
zANavAShi: “This is such a terrific thread … I am especially enjoying reading your input tochigi and eredwen, you’re welcome for espresso (fresh roasted organic of course) at my place any day girlfriend.”
THANK YOU, kind friend! Similarly, I enjoy your input (and the thought of coffee is appealing!)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
frog:
Following on from this thread … Can you/we find a way to have a list of recommended websites available/attached to frogblog that can be added to, amended and commented upon?
I’d be willing to help.
eredwen
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
uk_kiwi,
Note they should have withdrawn from the West Bank, Gaza Strip, East Jerusalem and The Golan Heights under UN res 242, which they have ignored for 39 years.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Israel is also an insidious racist apartheid state funded and supplied by the United States of America. This is indisputable- the bombs landing in Lebanon are American! IMHO the mafia thug comparison is valid, as through doing the empire’s dirty work they gradually become the tail wagging the imperial dog.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
uk kiwi:
This is just a start:
Some of the rockets landing on Israel are IRANIAN (One of the countries from whom Hezb’Allah has been able to buy munitions.) How does that make them worse than the greater volume of much more “sophisticated” Israeli munitions landing on Lebanon ?
… the dirty bombs (causing horrfic injuries never seen before), and the depleted uranium tipped munitions (permanently irradiating Lerbanese soil) are AMERICAN. (Does that make them somehow OK?)
You haven’t yet talked about “proportionality” here … Why?
If you were living in Southern Lebanon now, witnessing the enormous destruction of the infrastructure of your country and the targeted killing of civilians, and the permanent irreparable polluting of Lebanese soil, how would you feel about Israel and the USA?
PLEASE try putting yourself into Lebanese shoes …
AND into Hezb’Allah shoes …
When I was a child my parents frequently asked me “How would you feel if someone did that to you?” Now it is automatic for me to think that way!
(I’ll find some web addresses tomorrow, I’m too tired now!)
Kia ora!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
“What exactly is Israel supposed to do in the face of this kind of declaration?”
Um, how about becoming a non-racist, non-apartheid state?
Treating all ethnicities as human beings?
Stop stealing other people’s land and water?
Stop locking up millions of people in the world’s largest prison ghettos?
Stop starving and bombing kids?
We’ve had 58 years of Zionist nastiness and it doesn’t seem to have done Israel much good.
Some humanity and good faith might be a good place to start, eh?
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
tochigi- Israel is a modern democratic country with a modern economy. The support from the US amounts to only a few percent of GDP. You are getting awfully close to mindless ranting about Jewish conspiracies there!
Hezbollah, supplied and funded heavily by Iran, is much more sinister for the fact that it has such abhorrent aims. Calling for the annihilation of Israel is extremism plain and simple. As for the Iranian regime, well if you can really support a totalitarian regime that executes girls who are raped (to name one example) then I think you have some serious issues there.
I have already said I think the whole situation is awful, but understandable. Hezbollah tried to open up a new front to the north while Israel had its best troops and equipment battling Hamas in Gaza, and the Israelis responded with overwhelming (yes totally disproportionate!) force. They went way too far IMHO, but this has been Israeli policy for decades.
If I was Lebanese I would consider Hezbollah to be the problem- they want perpetual war until Israel is obliterated, and intend to start that war while using the Lebanese people as human shields.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
NEVER MENTIONED ANY JEWISH CONSPIRACIES. ok? got that clearly? didn’t think so.
Never, not once.
Flag away the antisemitic treatment, mate.
How exactly is Israel “democratic”?
Democratic countries don’t have special classes of citizenship and rights for certain ethnic groups.
Democratic countires don’t continually steal and occupy other people’s land, while stealing their water, bulldozing their houses and olive trees and imprisoning them indefinately for no reason and with no recall to any recognisable due process.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Israel, supplied and funded heavily by the United States of America, is much more sinister for the fact that it has such abhorrent aims. Calling for the annihilation of Palestine is extremism plain and simple. As for the American regime, well if you can really support a terrorist regime that invades countries and tortures, rapes and murders that country’s girls (to name one example) then I think you have some serious issues there.
If I was Lebanese I would consider Israel to be the problem- they want perpetual war until their neighbours and dispossessed prevoious occupants are obliterated, and intend to start that war while using the Lebanese people as human mincemeat.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
OK. Lets agree to disagree then. You go on supporting your terrorist fanatics, I’ll go on supporting the only civilised modern democracy in the region. I just hope your fanatics don’t blow you up on an airliner or a crowded commuter train, as they seem to enjoy doing.
The only thing I would add is those sacrifices eredwen so poignantly mentioned and those of millions in WW2 were not in vain. Imagine NZ if the USA had not gone to war with Japan in WW2- we would likely be an impoverished, ruined outpost of the militarist Japanese Empire. I believe in order to have peace, you must be prepared to fight for it.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/08/15/1326256
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
OK. Lets agree to disagree then. You go on supporting your terrorist racist apartheid state, I’ll go on supporting the right of Lebanese and Palestinian people not to have their land stolen and houses bombed from F16s. I just hope your fanatics don’t drop a bunker buster on your house, as they seem to enjoy doing.
I wonder if Israel just needs to fight for peace for another 58 years? Do you think that will be enough fighting?
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Tochigi
Israelis do not want perpetual war. That bit of overstatement is very much a problem for a “peace” ticket. Do not demonize the other side, TALK to them.
Which is apparently a difficult thing for some of us Greens. Particularly those of us who are far left of center Greens. It is also an extremely un-american thing to do. Americans like to make their enemies demons, so no guilt is felt when they are bombed. Why would you want to be emulating this?
When did Israel call for the “annihilation of Palestine”? I am SURE I would have heard about this. I mean throw me a bone here. I have no idea where this is coming from because it is at odds with both Israeli political statements and their military activity. Egregiously offensive though the latter is, it does not square with your assertion.
respectfully
BJ
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
I don’t know if the Israeli government ever “called” for the annihilation of Palestine, it just went ahead and destroyed it. It’s true Palestine hasn’t been a state for quite a while, but I think the significance of this is only true in western eyes (westerners are very hung up on the idea of the world being divided into states – I don’t find Arabs or a lot of muslims the same, often their primary allegience is to a tribe, a religious community or an ethnic group).
Tochigi – when I referred to islamic terrorism pre-dating Zionism, I never mentioned the Crusades, I was thinking of events in central Asia and Safavid Persia, although there were some pretty brutal events in South-eastern Europe during Arab rule as well.
“You go on supporting your terrorist fanatics, I’ll go on supporting the only civilised modern democracy in the region.”
Lebanon was doing pretty well as a civilised modern democracy for a while. When the Israeli airforce attacked Beirut airport is sure wasn’t hitting Hizbollah, was Lebanese democracy an embarrassment for Israel?
“As for the Iranian regime, well if you can really support a totalitarian regime that executes girls who are raped (to name one example) then I think you have some serious issues there.”
Can’t recall any suggestion of support for the Iranian government on this thread. Although I wouldn’t call Iran totalitarian – deeply flawed repressive semi-democracy would sum it up. Bloody horrible government in my limited experience, Iranians only seem to put up with it for fear of a return to a western-dominated puppet government if the current one fails.
As for the characterising of Hizbollah (I’m sticking to this spelling as there’s no accepted transliteration system for Arabic, and as there’s heaps more letters in the alphabet, any attempts to put it into English are goimg to be rough and ready) as a mafia – quite true, and that goes for every other government as well. “Might I remind you that it was Hezbollah who pioneered the use of brainwashed youths as sucide bombers?” Apparently the first and biggest users of suicide bombers have been the LTTE in Sri Lanka, but not being muslims attacking “the west”, nobody pays them much attention.
“the first impossible demand is amnesia… forget the dead, forget the past, work for the future.”
Sorry to sound patronising myself, BJ, but this sounds naive – OK for someone like me to say this (I’m a white male colonist currently on the winning side of history). Asking colonised people to forget the past is pushing it.
I’d love to think the Palestinians and Israellis could settle down in a secular non-racist democratic state (or region, province or better, a federation of democratic communities), but right now I find the situation to depressing to expect such an outcome.
Hopefully, I’ll be proved wrong. The end of the Lebanese civil war was something I never expected to work out as well as it did – it’s been pretty much overlooked how a nation managed to come together again after 15 years of civil war and entrenched hostilities. Not that the various communities are living in a state of love and harmony, but they are showing a fair degree of tolerance and willingness to get on with each other in a civilised manner, and that’s quite an achievement. The Lebanese people deserve much credit for this.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
bj:
In defence of tochigi:
If you read back you will see that tochigi uses the debating technique of taking (in this case) uk-kiwi’s argument/assertion and, using the same method /style of writing, “turning it on its head” …
This is an effective way of communicating in this situation. It shows up unwritten/unacknowldged/unrecognised differences in expectation and treatment of the two sides in this conflict.
They ARE being judged by entirely different standards by the mainstream media … For example the deliberate or unthinking use of words like “terrorist” and “insurgent” and our reactions to them.
eredwen
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
sam buchanan:
Thanks for the great post … very informative in a calming way.
(I think they call that “wisdom”.)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
note: i came along & found 50 new replies – so rather than reading to the end, i made replies as i went along. then i found other posts already making the same points. so some of my stuff is repetetive. i couldn’t be bothered deleting it.
“Palestine was never a country, it was a region. Largely subservient to the Turks in recent history. Nor was the region made to go away, it largely was exactly where most Palestinians still are.”
-in fact palestine was a largely autonomous region within the ottoman empire. they had things pretty sweet. they agreed to help the allies in world war 1 only on the promise that they would be given statehood after the war. their territory took in modern day israel.
the problem was that the allies did not keep this promise, but decided instead to give away the palestinians’ land to the jews. violence against palestinians began decades before the creation of israel, but the massive influx of jews took place after world war 2. it’s most certainly not the case of peaceful peoples who had co-existed for decades suddenly being set against each other. these events ocurred within the lifetime of israelis & palestinians still alive today.
“They should’ve let Hezbollah have the two soldiers and had Mossad pick up a couple of militants at some later date… and if all of them survived, trade”
-israel already holds lebanese prisoners. a trade was put on the board by hizbollah right from the start. israel preferred not to negotiate.
“As for a homeland for Palestinians, there is or was, the beginnings of one being created on the West Bank and in Gaza. ”
-that’s not the exent of their homeland. they want to be able to move back to their lands in present-day israel, not be imprisoned in a tiny strip of land.
“a people with their backs to the wall (and that IS how the Israeli’s perceive their position…”
-that’s propaganda. there’s a million israelis who are opposed to israels militant programme. they are kept in permanent minority by a constant influx of jews settling from overseas – and obviously any jew who would move from a nice western country to a hot, war-stricken strip of sand is going to be a fanatic.
“Obviously they are not working for all Lebanese, otherwise they would not be provoking Israel- they would work through the political system rather than attack unilaterally. They ignore the UN too- as I write this, they are still attacking Israel despite the ceasefire.”
-firstly israel provoked them not the other way around. secondly, it is israel who doesn’t want this ceasefire – anyone with an idea of what is going on over there would know that the minute it was signed they would begin working furiously to find a pretext to break it. of course they will claim it is the other side breaking it & that as usual, they are only “responding” to attacks, not “attacking”. actually, i am certain anyone sufficiently intelligent & politically aware to be posting here already knows all this, certainly if they have read the various articles linked in this thread so far. i conclude therefore that some comments in this thread have been made for propaganda purposes.
“hizbollah is funded by iran” – & idf is funded by usa, so what’s your point?
“If I was Lebanese I would consider Hezbollah to be the problem- they want perpetual war until Israel is obliterated, and intend to start that war while using the Lebanese people as human shields.”
-on the contrary, hizbollah have merely responded to israeli aggression. not surprisingly israel want to disarm hizbollah on top of evicting syria from lebanon – they evidently want lebanon to have no shield at all.
“When did Israel call for the “annihilation of Palestineâ€??”
-they didn’t. they just annihilated it.
one final question. if new zealand were invaded & conquered by a brutal foreign group who proceded to establish their own state on three quarters of new zealand (say, all of the south island & the lower part of the north island), & gradually expand further, then in 50 years if my kids (and god willing, me) are still calling for the abolition of that state, will we be called unreasonable, genocidal, fanatical?
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
To answer your final question, yes, that’s a pretty good summation of NZ’s history. The word “genocidal” hadn’t been invented yet, but the anti-colonial resistance was certainly called unreasonable and fanatical.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Well done Andrew! and well worth reading.
I particularly like:
“When did Israel call for the “annihilation of Palestine�?�
-they didn’t. they just annihilated it.
and a SUPERB reply Sam!!
WHAT AN EXCELLENT AND INFORMATIVE THREAD!
.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
bj said: “Israelis do not want perpetual war.”
bj, I look at the evidence of the last 58 years.
Palestinians and Israel’s neighbours have faced perpetual war.
And perpetual encroachment by Israel stealing more and more land and water resources.
And today we still have war, and the Israeli public apparently supports this state of affairs.
They keep voting for war criminals and warmongers.
They condone war crimes in “the territories”, especially collective punishment.
They fail to put a stop to the illegal “settler” movement.
They make agreements (Oslo) and then renege on them.
All this evidence suggests to me that perpetual war is what they want.
It seems to me that they feel their superior military strength is the key to their “security” and that domination of “weaker” Arabs is how they intend to conduct their affairs, in perpetuity.
I am certainly receptive to any contrary evidence you can show me.
respectfully,
tochigi
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
indeed it is informative.
yes good reply sam.
it’s telling that here in nz, 140 years after the main events leading to maori grievances, we are making some genuine efforts to settle the issues, while anyone advocating genuine settlement of 60-year-old palestinian grievances is labelled fanatical & unrealistic.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
eredwen,
Thank you. And I acknowledge that some may see my resorting to this tactic as infantile, but I have only done so in response to the ahistorical name-calling contained in some posts.
the thing that gets me the most is this assertion that Israel is “democratic”, “modern”, “civilised”, while its neighbours are the opposite of such adjectives. To me, this is racism, pure and simple.
Sam and andrew,
Thanks for your replies. Well worth reading.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
tochigi;
It certainly is NOT an “infantile tactic” to mirror another’s method of presentation, using opposing opinions/facts. For an aware person (receiver) it provides excellent feedback on the validity and effectiveness of his/her argument/opinion and its delivery.
Another’s lack of awareness is not your problem to solve …
Trying different methods to “get through” to him/her is!
Once I worked out what you were doing, I thought I might try it myself. (If those you were addressing didn’t “get it” other readers certainly did!)
It’s called “communicating” (… a very imprecise art!)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Thanks you again tochigi, and andrew and sam! I have learned more from you three in this thread about Palestine/Israeli history than I have from many hundreds of hours of googling about on the web.
andrew says”…if new zealand were invaded & conquered by a brutal foreign group who proceded to establish their own state on three quarters of new zealand (say, all of the south island & the lower part of the north island), & gradually expand further, then in 50 years if my kids (and god willing, me) are still calling for the abolition of that state, will we be called unreasonable, genocidal, fanatical?”
I couldn’t have said it better myself!
Something I also had been thinking of mentioning in this thread, so I’ll toss it in there now FWIW…. I had a very interesting conversation with a young Israeil chap last year, interested to hear first hand the feelings of an ordinary guy towards his governments Palestine policies and he was very clearly anguished by them.
In his opinion, and apparently there are many Israeli-born people who share it, there is a lot of resent towards the US involvement in Israeli affairs. He says that he blames the flood of settlers which emigrate from the USA as being the root cause of the government land-grabbing.
He said they come from the US with their greedy arrogant US attitudes, not interested in the Israeil/kibbutz way of life, wanting to build luxury homes in the desert with swimming pools and transform the regions into mini-Tuscon Arizonas, and expecting the Israeli army resources to protect them cos they settled over-the-boundary in the “wild frontier”.
And because they are generally really wealthy and have ties to wealthy influencial Jewish peeps in the US the government lets them get away with it. He said that is the hidden US connection that nobody likes to talk about and neither do they like to talk about the climate of resent that exists between them and 2nd/3rd/4th generation Israelis because it’s considered not OK to piss the Americans off.
He also was quite adamant that older generation Israeli peeps for the most part lived very peacefully with Palestinians, and employed them equally and had ordinary palestinians for friends. It is obvious that he regards the US settlers as a very big part of the domestic problem and I have been thinking a lot about this since.
I dunno exactly what this has to do with this thread, but I certainly welcomed the opportunity to have a real human conversation with an ordinary guy who was obviously open to looking at his own countries part to play in the conflict.
When I heard about the 30,000 IDF soldiers they were sending north last week I said a little prayer that this beautiful young man was not one of those conscripted
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
An afterthought to my last comment…
I have been thinking about that young Israeli chap a lot over the last week weeks and I believe that there are many Israelis who think like him and share the same anguish about the way their government is behaving.
I know there are active peace movements in Israel, just as there are in the USA, and I get the sense that they too are being shamed into silence in the same way because they too are afraid of being labelled “unpatriotic”.
I believe that people like him are the hope for the future of peace in Israel and we should be doing everything to support them gaining a stronger voice in the political landscape of their country.
Peace movements of the world unite!!!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
zANavAShi:
Very interesting and important information. Thanks!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Interesting stuff on Israeli society. I was thinking of an elderly Ukrainian jewish women I met at an anarchist meeting in London a while back. As a child she’d fled Russia with her family after the 1905 revolution, and fled again after the repression following the 1917 Bolshevik takeover, and ended up in Palestine in the 1930s.
On of her great gripes with the Jewish culture in Palestine was the rejection of Yiddish in favour of Hebrew (she was a Yiddish speaker and kept dropping Yiddish words into the conversation on the presumption that anarchists all spoke a bit of the language – I later read that early 20th century English police had to learn it in order to infiltrate anarchist groups there).
Apparently (my history is weak here) there was quite an argument in the early days of Israel between the more secular and internationalist Yiddish speaking community and the more religious and Zionist Hebrew-speakers. Eventually the latter gained ascendency and actively suppressed Yiddish culture. Nowadays the language of what was a huge part of Jewish culture isn’t even an official language in Israel.
It’s interesting that the Israeli state attacked the more liberal Jewish culture and one wonders what shape a Yiddish-speaking Israel would have looked like.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
zANavAShi & Sam,
Yes, it is interesting to hear the different viewpoints of Israelis, which are as varied as any country. It is just disappointing that the militartists, racist and warmongers have retained their iron grip on Israeli society for so long, with no end in sight. I believe that eventually it will change, but we are probably one or two decades away from peace based on true justice and democracy. The demonisation of “the enemy” seems to have succeeded with a majority of Israelis.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
zanavashi says: “I dunno exactly what this has to do with this thread,”
actually i regard that story as crucial to this thread. just as thousands of french people move to new caledonia (kanaky) just in time to vote every time they have an independence referendum there, the constant influx of new jewish citizens into israel is what radicalizes the politics there. the newcomers create the demand, the manpower and the political majority for israel’s repression & expansionism. that is how they keep their iron grip – just bringing in more of the same. their grandchildren in turn may just want to live in peace & justice, but then more outsiders will move in to outnumber them in turn.
there isn’t an end in sight until unrestricted jewish immigration stops, and probably will be no relief for the palestinians unless all the jews who have moved their in their own lifetime are made to go back home.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Thanks for putting that in perspective for me Andrew. I shared that story on a gut instinct, so I’m glad it turned out to be relevant to the overall debate.
Cheers
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
I was just googling for more info on this topic and found a documentary screened last year by PBS Frontline. If any of you have broadband connections you can watch the program online here:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/israel/
Yet another disturbing piece of the puzzle ((((shudder))))
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)