by frog
The plot thickens. The anti-Green leaflet distributed by the Exclusive Brethren businessmen is almost identical to an anonymous leaflet attacking Green Senate candidate Christine Milne, during her successful campaign last year in Tasmania. The two leaflets are reproduced below so you can see quite how similar they are.
Yet Greg Mason, one of the Exclusive Brethren businessman behind New Zealand’s anti-Green leaflets, said in Herald on Sunday today that his ‘Green Delusion’ pamphlet was created from scratch, without international inspiration. After comparing the pamphlets below, I’m sure you’ll agree that Mr Mason’s claim can only be described as absolute garbage.
The front of the New Zealand leaflet:
The front of the Australian leaflet:
The back of the New Zealand leaflet:
The back of the Australian leaflet:
Published in Campaign by frog on Sun, September 11th, 2005
Tags: environment
on the trolls and those who are unable to keep on topic
Greg Mason belongs to a sect that as a matter of doctrine regards all society outside of the Church as evil. By logical extention, Mr Mason probably holds the belief that he is under no obligation whatsoever to tell us sinners the truth.
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More lies from the EB’s. The only thing worse than a hypocritical Christian is a Christian who justifies violence in the name of religion.
Alan Liefting
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Substitute the word ‘Christian’ for ‘an member of any religion’ and you might have more respect. Christian bashing is truly pathetic.
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The EB’s should take note of Lloyd Geerings “Ten Resolutions” that he offers in his book (and lecture series?) “The Greening of Christianity.”
These Ten Resolutions outline how to live a life in harmony with society and the environment.
Alan Liefting
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Mike, I am not Christian bashing I am bashing hypocrites and thugs (in a Green sort of way!).
I am not anti-religion, I am anti-bad religion.
Alan Liefting
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snap..well done the derring-do detectives in the greens…
first rod nails brash with his pamphlet ambush..and now this….
is there no end to the lies and deceit…?…(sigh)..
i would assume the mainstream media will be running with this very visual news story…the international connection….the story still has legs..as they say..
(quick..someone send some more super strength st johns wort to the nat headquarters…there isn’t an abundance of hair over there and we don’t want them tearing what little there is, out….)
phil(whoar.co.nz
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Unwilling to avail themselves of either the vote or the facts, the Blatherin’ have instead attempted to put their money where their mouths are. Their somewhat narrow point of view seems to have affected their aim though, and they actually stuck it where their brains used to be. [Incredible that it could fit in such a tiny space.] Strangely, the resulting damage seems confined entirely to the foot area, while the noise and smell suggest it eventually lodged somewhere between the two [and slightly to the rear]. Considerable savings could have been made if they had inserted it there directly.
We can only hope that, as with Christianity and Islam, these gentlemen represent a vocal extremist minority, rather than the silent majority.
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As for other Australian analogies, should National actually get in there is a very real chance for a New Zealand season of the 1996 Budget “Black Hole” drama which the Liberal party “discovered” [Gasp! Shock! Horror! Naughty fiddling Labour party!] once they set up shop. Needless to say, all bets were off and all promises revoked…
http://www.uq.edu.au/economics/johnquiggin/news96/Blackhole9605.html
Happy Voting : – ) >
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For what it is worth, my strong distaste of all things extreme was first acquired within a religious context.
Fundamentalism is one of the sad recurring themes of all religions; an always dangerous development that has it’s origins within the desire of the cult/sect leaders’ desire for power. It is the combination of eclesiatical and political power that these leaders strive for that is the principle symptom of the disease.
The great shame is that just one of these sects, pursuing their twisted agendas will undo the much of the good that the moderate and faithfull achieve.
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Well said Logix!
eredwen
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Phil u:
I love the picture your “…more super strength st john’s wort…” paragraph evokes.
eredwen
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eredwen..cheers..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Thanks for that – ive linked your post in full on my blog, hope thats ok.
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I’m sorry, but I fail to see the point. The EB are entitled to reproduce those pamphlets if they like. They’re also entitled to say that they didn’t get any ‘international inspiration’ as well. What’s your point Frog? As Sir Humph’s points out, most of the claims in the pamphlets are true, anyway. We’ve yet to see a rebuttal to this yet.
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Chris: Of course they’re entitled to lie about not having any international inspiration. I’m also entitled to point their lie out. What exactly is *your* point?
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Chris
They’re NOT entitled to lie to me. Nobody is entitled to that. People who DO lie to me are, when I discover the lies (which is rather more often than not) revealed as my enemies. There is nothing worse than these fundamentalist freaks getting a foot into the political arena. This is a tolerant society, and defending a tolerant society from intolerant b**tards is not an easy thing. It is the single issue on which I permit myself “intolerance” and it comes into full force with these clowns.
They aren’t true Christians, no matter what they think they are. They aren’t right, no matter what they think they are.
They aren’t good Kiwi’s, no matter what they think they are.
They aren’t my brothers, no matter who they think they are.
BJ
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I agree with Frogs comment. It serves no-one to lie, and the “lie” is over an inconsequential issue – using a template. The content is based on Frogs NZ policies. Which are not lies.
I am keen to see/hear the source interview to check the context. If Mr Mason was genuinely responding to the issue of the content, he hasn’t lied, and this is yet again another media storm.
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BJChip, if this is a tolerant society, how tolerant shall we be? Nandor’s speech to support Civil Unions was to suggest it has been tolerated in society before. Here’s a point he makes:
“For most of history marriage has not been enacted in legislation, and across times and cultures marriage has included polygamy, incest and paedophilia.”
So how tolerant do you think we should be? Bigamy next? You sit quietly with Helen Clark caught out in lies, and she is our Prime Minister. Yet you have no tolerance for some-one who may have lied about sourcing a template. Wow.
Are you just angry the EB have an opinion the Greens social policies are destructive?
Greens have legalised prostitution, support illicit drug use, upturn the meaning of “family” by supporting same sex couples to marry, and obviously, the civil union bill. All pretty strong issues to many Christians, not just EB. Some wonder what is next, as step by step, society changes. Lowering consensual sex age?
I do not disagree with some of these changes, and our challenge is to prove society is stronger for it.
Which is why I think you are in error to judge them as not being “true Christians” or “good Kiwis”. If they work within the framework of our legal system (and we can pass more laws) then maybe they are acting according to their conscience, just as you are when you presumably supported the Civil Union Bill.
What are you worried about? Do you really think the 7% or so of Greens would be swayed for one minute by the EB brochure? Do you think the Green voter would look at 300 words or so and suddenly go “my God, what a fool I’ve been?”
Jeanette didn’t need to label the Brochure “lies and half truths”. It could have been an opportunity to say “Yes, we want to decriminalise Cannabis. It’s important to understand the reasons. Come to our web site. Find out why this is a good move…
Yes, Diesel will go up in price. Come to our web site and find out what the real issue is…
Respectfully (I’m not trying to be smart here)
ZenTiger
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Chris,
You’re fudging two meanings of ‘entitled’. That is ‘legally permitted’ and ‘morally entitled’.
Whether or not they are _legally_ entitled to lie is tricky, but probably they are. But we have laws on slander and libel, on false advertising, and on how electoral campaigns can be conducted. I’m not a lawyer and wouldn’t want to make a call on that.
Whether or not they are _morally_ entitled to lie in the name of the cause is less tricky: if you believe in democracy as a good thing then they are not morally entitled to lie.
Democracy can’t work unless people are able to become informed, and so lying in an electoral campaign is (quite literally) an attack on the fundamentals of democracy. There are those (like Roger Douglas back in the early 80s) who really believe that democracy is a bad thing because the misguided majority would oppose your clearly correct views, and that you need to fool the people to trick your policies into being. You wanna support that moral view you can: but realise that moral view is inherently elitist and anti-democratic. You aren’t likely to find most of us sympathetic to it.
You’ll then say “but politicians lie all the time”. Well, not as much as you’d think, that’s why Brash lying is news. And lying is still wrong: that’s why Clark’s painting-signing was a scandal, even though it was politically utterly irrelevant otherwise.
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Brash was being evasive from what I saw. Others are generating media storm re lying. He only suspected the Brethren were behind the brochures on day 1, he didn’t know for sure. He did not answer the direct question on day 2, turning away instead.
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zen
I tolerate various degrees of prevarication, and what is lied about is important as well. If the lie is about ME or something I have an interest in, it becomes far more important. If I say grey is grey and someone says that I said black is white, I am entitled to be angry. However, that is not the only thing that incenses me about the EB. What gets me with them is the fact that I’VE SEEN THIS BEFORE! It happened all over the USA. Smears and rumours started by nameless, faceless minions of a larger evil. Pat Robertson calling for the assassination of the Hugo Chavez and other insane proclamations from the pulpits. Clandestine takeovers of school boards and municipal governments with the result that Creationism is taking hold as science and real science is in retreat. People who have absolutely no qualms about lying to “non-believers” and other sub-humans.
Bigots with Bibles and I permit myself the luxury of hating them. I hate them collectively and individually and personally and I do not withold anything in that hate. Theirs is a world predicated on control and mastery and absolute knowledge that their way is “right” and I must believe it too. Such people cannot live with me thinking as I do, and I my thoughts CANNOT be made as theirs. It touches on the core of what I am. I think that this is an area you may understand a bit, the thing is that you probably have not seen this particular sort of “takeover” of the right by the fundamentalists. I have. It is the ugliest thing that can happen to a free society.
respectfully
BJ
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BJ
I appreciate that you have expected NZ to be a haven from this kind of fundamentalist bullshit, I’m sorry to have to tell you that fundamental churches have been on the rise here in the last 2 decades.
I left a “flavour” of one of these, some 6 years ago, and discovered that I had been excommunicated in absentia, and was shunned on the street by people I had grown up with. The extent of the communal brainwashing that occurs within closed sects made it very difficult for me to learn to be independant, first off, and to stop making excuses for their behaviour in the long term.
They are not just a religious cult, they have an almost psychosocial pathology; the sickness is invisible to them because they don’t have an outside worldview to compare their internal “reality” with.
Only people who have experienced their abuse first-hand can really know how angry any exposure to their bullying control behaviour can make me feel, and BJ, we have that in common. I have met feminists, anarchist, and atheists, hairdressers and partypeople, none of us capable of hardline fundamental intolerance anymore, because we have all escaped to promote freedom of expression and dignity for all people. Many find it hard to espouse political beleifs, because it is too close to their childhood conditioning to take on ideas from other people. Others find a relief in the smorgasbord of philosophy and new friendships that are available to the newly unenclosed.
Our ability to experience peace in our own lives is not threatened by these people, simply because they are exposed as fraudulent obssessive compulsives. If any party NEEDS sick people like these to win a campaign, then they are truly in far more trouble policy-wise than they thought!!
katie
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BJChip and Katie. I agree it is important to maintain a strong will, an interest in our society and constant self-education. With that, to then be involved in communities and the wider political system enough to let other people know what your opinion is, so they can feel braver about voicing theirs.
With that level of interest in our world, the crazies (whoever they be) should remain under the 5% threshold. The more information out there the less mistrust there will be. Those that deserve to rise above 5% will get a fairer chance, and those that do not, will have to take a back seat.
That being said, it is important not to over-react to wildly different opinions. I came to learn some of this too, from my times in different countries, and espcially different cultures.
We might have similar views on the importance of self determination, and we might have different views on the degree of threat different views pose to our preferred way of life.
Being able to debate this is one of the best safety checks I can think of.
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amen to that
thanks to frog for the forum in which to do so.
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I believe that the EBs are looking forward to Armageddon and the Second Coming of Christ.
Before that happens, there will be the breakdown of civilisation.
The EBs perceive that Green policies will act to delay this breakdown.
Therefore they oppose Greens!
Anyone agree?
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