youth rates

Metiria Turei
Nat MP nails problem with youth rates

(note: the above headline is not a typo)

The statement below could very well be the basis for a future speech by an MP opposed to National’s legislation that will result in many young New Zealanders getting a pay cut.

The fundamental proposition this bill puts up is that we need to pay people less to get them into their first job so that they can have an unskilled future. That is what this bill essentially will do to New Zealanders. We see a different future for New Zealanders. We want those young people to get into training and skills so that they are not talking about getting the lowest-paid job they possibly can, but instead are looking to get the best-paid job they possibly can. If we can achieve that, we can make the dynamic change in our economic base that will give New Zealand the growth potential we need.

The above wise words are not however from some future political speech but were uttered by National MP David Bennett in 2010.  At that time National were opposing ACT MP Roger Douglas’s attempt to give young New Zealanders a discriminatory pay cut.

Unfortunately the lofty rhetoric of Hamilton’s David Bennett has drifted off into the ether as National launch their version of Sir Roger’s legislation.

Young people looking for a decent start to their working life under the current Government will soon be able to look forward to;

-        earning significantly less than the minimum wage.

-        being dismissed from a job paying a pittance anytime in the first three months

-        losing their rights to state support if they don’t accept a job paying less than the minimum wage that they can be fired from at any time.

National’s plans for young people seem to be more and more about them getting into the lowest paid job than less and less about making certain they have the skills to survive in the 21st Century workforce.

 

 

 

71 thoughts on “Nat MP nails problem with youth rates

  1. Good onya Metiria..

    I grew up under the previous regime of ‘youth rates’ & was always annoyed that I was doing the same work as others, but getting less in my pay packet on pay-day.
    This is just another example of pandering to the business sector. The thing that is not being said is that it may well cause some unscrupulous employers to hire 16-17 year olds instead of 18+ because they can pay them less. With the 3 month dismissal law, there are no guarantees that these low paid workers will advance past the 6 month thresh-hold to ‘adult rates’
    Call me cynical… if you like !

    Kia-ora

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 2 (+5)

  2. Zed – So you got a leg up into the workforce due to youth rates but you want to deny that opportunity to the youth of today. Cynical – no.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 7 (-4)

  3. @1Trk

    I hear what your saying, BUT I disagree.. my first job was in an engineering factory. YES I did learn on the job, but so did all new employees regardless of their age. Many people are calling for an increase to $15/hour , NOT dropping it to $10.80..
    Govt. MPs have admitted they could not live on minimum wage & NOW they are talking about reducing even lower for 16-17s! SHAME

    Kia-ora

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 1 (+5)

  4. And Metiria expects people like me to go broke because I tried to employ a young person in my business that turns out to be unreliable.

    Metiria expects my business to be an extension of the welfare system, I can’t afford to do this, so no young person gets a job from me.

    My wife and I have our own “young persons” to feed and be responsible for.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 11 (-3)

  5. So you expect the welfare system and the rest of us, and/or your employee, to train transport and support your employee, so your business can pay less than he/she costs.

    Not even good capitalism!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 5 (+2)

  6. What is National going to do next. reduce benefits again so people are forced to take starvation wages.

    Of course they already have rules that you lose your social insurance if you “refuse” an exploitative employer.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 4 (+5)

  7. So you expect the welfare system and the rest of us, and/or your employee, to train transport and support your employee, so your business can pay less than he/she costs.

    Nope.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 6 (-3)

  8. A living wage should be the absolute minimum.

    And that is exactly what NZ welfare gives them.

    But Kerry doesn’t think beneficiaries should have to budget for things properly like the rest of us, I mean, you aren’t really “living” unless you can light your fag with a “Lord Rutherford”.

    What a despotic nasty land we live in!! we expect those on welfare not to waste it!! WHAT MONSTERS!!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 8 (-6)

  9. What is National going to do next. reduce benefits again so people are forced to take starvation wages.

    Of course they already have rules that you lose your social insurance if you “refuse” an exploitative employer.

    Oh!! tiz terrible!! what wretched incorrigible capitalists we have all become!
    Won’t someone think of the children?!!?

    Who will deliver us from this toil and torment and save us from this wretched land!!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 10 (-8)

  10. Present welfare is NOT ENOUGH TO LIVE ON EXCEPT BRIEFLY.

    It seems you and others now expect those who are working to live on even less.

    And, What has Lord Rothschild, or J Key for that matter done for society, that they deserve so much more than a teenage apprentice?

    Maybe those against welfare are right. We would have been better not to pay for Key and Bennett’s education and upbringing, considering the damage they have and are doing to the rest of us.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 3 (+4)

  11. “Nope”

    Really you consider it an imposition to pay the full costs for and train your employees. Which is effectively anyone who supports the present inadequate minimum wage supports.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 2 (+2)

  12. I know I couldn’t live on social insurance, and I already have substantial assets, much of the things I would need, and a few I don’t. and a high level of budgeting skills.

    My mother has worked for the budgeting service for years. She is an expert on living on low incomes. She cannot find enough in the money of many families she helps to provide them with basic necessities.
    A doctors visit or a car breakdown, which they need to get to WINZ appointments, can mean wheatbix for a month.
    Never mind the 10 pack of noodles. You see them buying 1 or 2 packs at a time.

    You Shunda, are a bullshit artist, along with Photo.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 5 (0)

  13. What you can survive on as a young student with all the cheap or free support services the University provides, when you are in good health and have few needs, is a lot different from the requirements of a young person working at a real job.

    Students seem to be very quick to forget how much they get from their parents, also.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 4 (0)

  14. Though I am not sure that those who expect young people, the sick and elderly to live a bare bones existence, often for all their lives, so the well off can save a few dollars in tax, are human.

    Humans are social animals!

    Though it would help if the rich and not the middle class actually paid taxes. According to the IRD half of the wealthiest people in NZ do not pay taxes.
    Which is why Gareth Morgans ideas on taxation could be effective.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 3 (+2)

  15. You Shunda, are a bullshit artist, along with Photo.

    Time to put up or shut up Kerry.

    I want to see an example of those budgets you just referenced, I’m calling bullshit on you until you do.

    That’s the thing about people like yourself, you never give any real reference to actual costs vs income, it’s all just bleeding heart emotive crap and I should just “take your word for it”

    So I want to see an example of benefit, WFF payments, and accommodation supplement, and then an honest example of LEGITIMATE expenses, otherwise I am calling bullshit on you and your whining.

    SHOW ME THE MONEY.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 7 (-4)

  16. We have done that several times.

    Your own side say it is not enough to live on. but they don’t care.

    Could equally say the same to you. Make a realistic budget for someone on $10.80 an hour, Don’t forget that in a typical minimum wage job they will often get less than 40 hours a week and have to travel to work at odd times.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 4 (0)

  17. We have done that several times.

    I’ve never seen it, you give me no choice but to call it for what it is.

    In a debate on this topic, this data should be easily accessible, assuming of course it isn’t just cut-n-paste activism that belongs in the States (which I strongly suspect it is).

    Quantitative easing you say?
    Poor being oppressed you say?

    We ARE in Kansas Toto!!!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 7 (-4)

  18. Hey there,

    I’m a beneficiary and I don’t even have enough budget to pay Work and Income back on what they loaned me at the rate they suggested. When I went to budgeting advice they went through all my paperwork and then I went back to Work and Income. They reduced each debt down to $1 a week (so I pay around $12/week) for a couple of thousand dollars of debt.

    I’m not going to give you a budget breakdown b/c it seems from your posts that nothing will satisfy you and I anticipate many questions that will expect me to justify every line expense to your satisfaction. Only I’m not accountable to you, only Work and Income and the IRD neither of whom have an issue with me.

    I accept that some of us are not responsible with money but they are in the minority. I find the whining of some of them annoying especially those who are in a better position than the rest of us.

    The reality is that the issues with money kick in over the longer term, I would say anything over three months and you start getting really run down. It is particularly bad for those with any form of disability (the more disabilities the worse it gets), those who move frequently (domestic violence, rent rises…), and those who have children.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 3 (+2)

  19. Paying youth rates vs. paying equally means nothing, because employers will employ who they want and tough bikkies. Quite frankly the whole system of wage slavery is broken and the Greens will achieve nothing here by tampering around the edges. Everyone should be an independent operator, or where necessary in communral free association co-ops for mutual benefit. The means of production should be owned by the workers for the benefit of the workers, not the present system which relies on both capitalist overlords and surplus (unemployed) people (to keep wages down), both of which are an undesirable situation. Everyone who is able should work and get the full benefit of this with slave ownership or paid-laziness not being available options.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1 (0)

  20. @SB

    What are you on ?

    Its OK to have an opinion, BUT just attacking the Greens, constantly for their ideology… get a life or join the Key-party.. Pls

    Kia-ora Greens

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 3 (-1)

  21. What are you on ?

    Its OK to have an opinion, BUT just attacking the Greens, constantly for their ideology… get a life or join the Key-party.. Pls

    Wow!! I mean WOW!! what an insightful comment!!

    Who IS this intellectual powerhouse!!

    The text speak at the end was just……..WOW!!!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 2 (+2)

  22. I’m not going to give you a budget breakdown b/c it seems from your posts that nothing will satisfy you and I anticipate many questions that will expect me to justify every line expense to your satisfaction.

    Good for you.
    But you have zero credibility and shouldn’t expect anyone to believe you.

    Only I’m not accountable to you, only Work and Income and the IRD neither of whom have an issue with me.

    Gee, I struggle to even see the slightest relevance of that comment, so what you are saying is: “You’re not the boss of me!!!

    Well, no, I’m not (thank goodness).

    I accept that some of us are not responsible with money but they are in the minority.

    No they are not.

    I find the whining of some of them annoying especially those who are in a better position than the rest of us.

    Well we can agree on one thing I guess, but it kind of contradicts your previous comment.

    The reality is that the issues with money kick in over the longer term, I would say anything over three months and you start getting really run down. It is particularly bad for those with any form of disability (the more disabilities the worse it gets), those who move frequently (domestic violence, rent rises…), and those who have children.

    All a these things are a great incentive for an individual to sort their life out and stop playing the victim (except those with a legitimate disability of course).

    If I was able to get off welfare then so can you.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 2 (+1)

  23. National will NOT abolish welfare… ever! The benefit system serves the purposes of their elite backers – by just giving recipients enough to keep them oppressed in mindset and dependent on the system.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1 (+1)

  24. Oh wake up people.

    1) Minimum wage rises are really just giving yourself a payrise out of your own pocket. If you were an employer, and your most significant operating cost – people – went up, would you a) absorb the cost, b) pass it on to customers or c) both?

    2) Labour is subject to the same supply and demand laws as any other good. Higher price = less demand. So what does this mean in real terms? A higher price = lower demand hence higher unemployment. Your extra pay comes at the expense of those who are priced out of the market.

    These are two pretty straightforward concepts which seem to get lost in amongst all the politicking. There is no free ride to wealth and prosperity – the only way we will increase national wealth is to increase productivity.

    You have to ask the wider question – what is the goal of the minimum wage? To provide a foot in the door for a young single or a comfortable living for a family?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0 (+1)

  25. Kerry says “You Shunda, are a bullshit artist, along with Photo.”

    That’s hilarious coming from someone who was embarrassed by making up total nonsense that food has gone up by 20% in just one year.

    You have proven you’ll make up any old nonsense – even when everyone can see it’s plainly rediculous.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1 (+1)

  26. The problems the Greens have is very few of them have any idea of an employers point of view.

    When they backed Labours plan to abolish youth rates, youth unemployment skyrocketed – as employers predicted – and has never come back down.

    Effectively they made many young people unemployable. They had no idea that this would happen, and probably still have no idea about it.

    But it was as obvious to employers then as it is now. If I have to pay the SAME for a 16 year old with NO work experience, NO work references, as a 25 or 35 or 55 year old with experience, work references, and a record of reliability, honesty etc – then that will almost always make young workers LAST on the list of prospective employees.

    At least this puts young people on a more equal footing when it comes to getting a job, then when they get a job, within six months they are legally moved to full adult wages anyway.

    It’s a common sense solution for those who live in the real world.

    Or we can stick with the Green/Labour plan of banning youth employment – er I mean youth rates – making young people unemployable, and having massive youth unemployment rates forever.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0 (+2)

  27. Your are still bullshitting Photo. Youth unemployment has gone up for reasons totally unrelated to youth rates. Paying youth starvation wages is going to increase unemployment as the unemployment is simply transferred for 18 year old to 20 year olds as it has in the past.

    Many Greens are or have been employers. Unlike right wing idiots we know that employees are also our customers. Our prosperity depends on theirs.

    And despite your crap Photo. Groceries have gone up 20% for families in the past year. As they have at my work.
    I have enough proof now that the CPI, and Photo are talking shit. I’ve obtained figures from the Sallies and support here, as well as the ones from work and other people and it determinately has.

    I will put up budgets soon. Unlike Photo, I work for a living so it will take a few days.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 3 (-2)

  28. I have obtained figures from so many different people and organisations about the rise of Grocery prices that I can say conclusively that a 20% rise is everyones experience.

    Which proves the CPI for groceries is, as we have long suspected, rigged, and Photo either does not buy groceries, or makes enough money from astro-turfing, so he does not have to budget for groceries.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 3 (-1)

  29. You are delusional Photo in thinking that giving multi-national fast food companies cheaper labour. allowing even more wealth to go offshore, is going to increase employment.

    If you want evidence look at the Labour department conclusions, and research overseas which shows that youth rates have an inconclusive effect on youth unemployment and reduces overall employment.

    Of course real life evidence never figures when it contradicts RWNJ, photo-stats.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 3 (-1)

  30. I have obtained figures from so many different people and organisations about the rise of Grocery prices that I can say conclusively that a 20% rise is everyones experience. Which proves the CPI for groceries is, as we have long suspected, rigged…

    Of course real life evidence never figures when it contradicts RWNJ, photo-stats.

    Stats on CPI are slightly shonky sometimes (when they decide to substitute), but not 20% out shonky. Please don’t accuse others of throwing out information that doesn’t suit when you just did exactly that.

    If you want evidence look at the Labour department conclusions, and research overseas which shows that youth rates have an inconclusive effect on youth unemployment and reduces overall employment.

    Inconclusive – i.e. there are so many other factors in the market they can’t work out one cause from another (flooding the market with credit as happened in the last decade is always great at masking underlying effects). I’m sure you can find a point in time when the statistics suit your story but that doesn’t override the simple concept that higher price = less demand for labour.

    Youth unemployment has gone up for reasons totally unrelated to youth rates.

    There may have been other contributing factors fair enough, but are you saying the youth rate had NO impact on youth unemployment? Will you volunteer to eat your hat if youth unemployment drops?

    Paying youth starvation wages is going to increase unemployment as the unemployment is simply transferred for 18 year old to 20 year olds as it has in the past.

    For sure there will be some transfer – with minimum wages it’s the only way some businesses can remain economically viable in these current conditions. Curious how many of these 16/17 year olds are living at home and working part time as opposed to those who have left home? I’m sure they won’t be ‘starving’ as you put it.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0 (+2)

  31. hemi,

    1. the minimum wage is neither a foot in the door for young people (most people om it are not young people – but carers, cleaners, supermarket checkout staff of all ages etc) or sufficient to support a family. The latter fact is the reason for the In Work tax credit of WFF and also other child tax credits and the accomodation supplement.

    2. the higher the minimum wage the greater the pressure for wage increases for workers who earn little more than the current minimum wage and who have been unable to negotiate a pay increase because there is no union coverage.

    3. yes a higher minimum wage does mean an increase in cost across the board. But it means a higher standard of living for those on low wages and it means less need for tax transfer to low paid workers for accomodation supplement and family support.

    The real point at issue here is however, that encouraging those aged 16 and 17 to leave school to undercut the labour cost to employers of older workers, is not a great way to improve productivity. Placing older workers into unemployment means greater cost supporting their families and this is a cost on the productive economy and taking the young out of education and or training into unskilled work is tragic.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 2 (-2)

  32. SPC – just where is this money going to come from? Squeezing the last living breath out of the productive sector? My point is legislation doesn’t magically increase peoples living standards. I’m tempted to just say go ahead and implement a ‘living’ wage – wait and see what happens to the economy. Hint – expect a large jump in inflation, albeit temporarily, people may feel wealthier temporarily if some businesses delay putting prices up (which I doubt for such a large increase), and then we’re back to square one. For all the minimum wage increases over time, is anyone actually any better off? If it actually increased the standard of living shouldn’t we be in some kind of utopia by now?

    Please enlighten me, if not for politics, then what is the point? Great way to get the uneducated to support your party, poor way to actually grow the economy. I expect better from our leaders.

    Your point about people of all ages being on the minimum wage – that’s all well and good, but if your a cleaner / carer or supermarket worker you get what customers pay for you. None of those industries are particularly lucrative – employers are hardly creaming it. Ultimately it is what the consumer will pay for their goods / services that determine what the staff are paid. Until you come up with some magical way of controlling the population to pay more for whatever goods / services you deem ‘undervalued’ then don’t expect things to change. They are paid based on the value society places on their services. If people want to be paid more then they need to perform a service society values more, or somehow convince the rest of society to pay more (and forcing them to via government intervention – whether it be tax transfers or minimum wage controls – as I mentioned in the first paragraph it obviously doesn’t work).

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1 (+2)

  33. What Hemis said +1

    Unemployed youth are so unattractive to employers that I’m suprised that the Greens have not looked a the other side of the equation.

    Has anyone from the Greens spoken to any employer regarding why employing young people is so unattractive to the employers?

    With the push to 26 weeks maternity leave, young women especially will be even more unwanted as employees.

    High minimum wages for unskilled people leads to fewer job opportunities, not more.

    But with the Greens turning on the money printing presses, I’m sure there will be many state jobs created to soak up and upskill youth suitable for later employment in the private sector.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1 (+3)

  34. “but not 20% out shonky”.

    If the experience of every organisation, private consumer and company I talk to is a 20% increase then it actually suggests the stats are more than shonky.

    Too many people I talk to, and ourselves, have experienced a 20% real rise in their grocery bills over the 12 months to October.

    However much you may argue, that is what has happened.

    It could be the stats are shonky like National’s insistence that wages have gone up.
    True for average wages, but only because some wages at the top end have gone up hugely. 60k and 100k rises for executives.
    The experience of most people has been constantly dropping wages, against living costs, for a long time.
    Median wages give a much truer picture of most peoples real life experience.

    The prices in a Whangarei or South Auckland store a lot truer picture for those on low incomes.

    Still waiting for the better future for New Zealanders, Douglas and co promised, if we sacrificed then!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1 (0)

  35. Gerrit. You may well ask why employers are so keen to avoid the cost of training their own young people.
    I preferred young people, who had not picked up bad habits, and I could train to do the job to my standards.
    The weeks or months you are allowed them on work experience, free, if you are that mean, gives more than enough time to assess if they are suitable for your job.
    If it is a Mcjob which requires little training then there is no justification for a lower starting wage.

    That is not even good capitalism. Workers or other tax payers, subsidising an employer who cannot pay the true costs of their supplies/labour.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 (0)

  36. Kerry,

    cannot pay the true costs of their supplies/labour.

    How does an employer work out the “true” cost?

    What formula should one use? Is there such a formula? How do you make sure it is applied evenly accross all employment/business sectors?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 3 (-1)

  37. Hemi,

    What a load of rubbish.

    First, legislation increased the MW from $9 to $12 over 3 years – and little inflation resulted – so who is worse off? The low paid workers concerned are clearly all much better off.

    Second, few MW jobs are in the productive sector, they are in the domestic services sector. They are not in areas of discretionary spending but necessities – cleaners, carers and supermarket retail. Employers do not cut jobs they pass on costs – costs that do not impact much on the CPI (if a 9 to $12 increase won’t move the CPI, then the MW level is not a key determinant). This labour market is inelastic.

    So increasing the MW clearly does work.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0 (+2)

  38. Gerrit,

    You know very well that Norman proposed to fund the Earthquake Fund to invest offshore and otherwise to finance the rebuild in Christchurch, not fund state government jobs.

    And its unskilled workers who are limited in their job options and thus encouraging and enabling unskilled youth to leave school at 16 and become dependent on such jobs is lunacy.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0 (+1)

  39. SPC,

    You know very well that Norman proposed to fund the Earthquake Fund to invest offshore and otherwise to finance the rebuild in Christchurch

    So the Greens are proposing to print money, invest offshore and use the interest to pay for the CHCH rebuild?

    Does not pass the DIMS test.

    That suggestion is pure lunacy.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 2 (0)

  40. Clearly you either do not know what Norman proposed, or are simply deliberately misrepresenting it again and again. Ignorant or malicious?

    Just another National hack?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 3 (-3)

  41. Lunacy is paying the banks billions a year for the money printed by the US federal reserve. Which they are giving to the banks for dam near free.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 2 (0)

  42. “How does an employer work out the “true” cost?”

    Google the living wage campaign.

    One thing is for sure. Our current minimum wage does not even begin to reimburse the true cost of working, supplying labour incurred by the employee, let alone the costs that wider society pays to supply that employee..

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 3 (-2)

  43. SPC,

    If increasing the MW clearly does work, why are min wagers still in ‘poverty’? After a 27% increase over the period you specified (i’m assuming April 2004 to April 2008) and an 18% increase since then, and minimal inflation, why the call for a ‘living’ minimum wage? Something isn’t quite right…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 (0)

  44. Kerry says “I have obtained figures from so many different people and organisations about the rise of Grocery prices that I can say conclusively that a 20% rise is everyones experience.

    What a load of total crap.

    You really exepect people to believe you know lots of people and organisations who have all been keeping exact figures of food prices from a year ago, you have approacjhed all these poeple, and these organisations, and compared their prices to today – and have all found that food prices have gone up 20%?

    Kerry – you got caught out saying a load of utter nonsense. Now you’re trying to cover up with nonsense that’s nothing short of delusional.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 2 (0)

  45. Kerry Thomas has a valid point.

    Clearly one reason why we do not require employers to provide a living wage is that they all have different circumstances. Conversely we are also not a free market society where we allow people to suffer a lower and lower labour price, via unregulated immigration for example.

    A MW, supplemented by tax credits (for children and with some relationship to income level) and the accomodation supplement is how we provide this “living wage” for a family.

    Of course the MW base to the living wage should take into account the cost to society of labour supply to the business, lest provision of a full living wage fall unduly on the rest of society.

    In the past we developed the notion of relationship between the MW and the average wage. But globalisation has resulted in a wider spread of pay and more poorly paid jobs. Also the average wage over the past few decades has not kept up with productivity gains. And, because of increases in the cost of necessities, such as housing and power, more and more of those at the average wage are struggling. This places pressure to develop another tool to base the MW on. A cost of labour supply from society to the business is one.

    Once we realise the cost of raising a child to a worker, we should be less willing to accept poor educational outcome, or encouraging youth to leave school early to take up unskilled work. For their and our sake.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0 (+2)

  46. SPC,

    Clearly you either do not know what Norman proposed, or are simply deliberately misrepresenting it again and again. Ignorant or malicious?

    Could you please explain what you meant then by your utterance

    You know very well that Norman proposed to fund the Earthquake Fund to invest offshore and otherwise to finance the rebuild in Christchurch

    If I have interpreted you wrong then please explain.

    Must have struck a nerve for you to pidgeon hole me as a National party hack. Weak response on your part.

    Kerry,

    That is not an answer on how an employer works out the “true” cost of labour. Living wage web site is but a wish list of what people want, not how to procure it. Devil in the detail again.

    If the minimum wage is so important set it at $35 per hour. Problem solved, everyone will be rich.

    All those profits will stop flowing overseas, New Zealand will be the land of plenty.

    Ever considered that New Zealands biggest employer group (SME) cant actually afford to pay any higher wages?

    And if you are worried about profits being repatriated overseas why are the Greens not proposing a fiscal export tax?

    For currently all you are proposing is to kill off the SME employment sector.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1 (+1)

  47. Actually the bit that is puzzling is the invest overseas bit. Why print money, stick it in a fund, invest overseas and use the fund to rebuild CHCH.

    Why double handle the money by sticking it in a fund for investment?

    Surely you would print the money and pay for rebuild work directly? Why invest in a fund when you are going to be using the money to buy rebuild construction activity.

    And have fund managers clipping the ticket and why invest offshore?

    Just does not pass the DIMS test.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1 (0)

  48. You are a dipshit Photo. I work for an industry that buys groceries to feed their staff.
    We have crew grocery accounts for the last 29 years.

    Unlike RWNJ I do not say anything that cannot be backed up with objective evidence and/or direct observation

    Real people are finding their grocery bills increasing.

    No matter what the, obviously, rigged stats say.

    Just as real people are watching their wages go down, Despite the Nats constantly saying wages are rising.
    Well. Not for most of us.

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  49. Gerrit, why comment about Normans policy, if you cannot be bothered to read it? And clearly you have not. It’s pointless debating it with someone who does not know what it is and is making criticisms that are less than relevant.

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  50. Gerrit.

    A living wage is not a wishlist. It is an attempt to asses what it really costs to live.

    Are you really happy with your competitors getting their staff below cost?

    Or with working for families, which is really an employer subsidy?
    Saying that raising the minimum wage hurts mostly SME’s is unlikely to be true.
    At least in my part of the country all the SME owners, I know of, pay over minimum wage.
    It is SME’s who benefit from money staying in the local community.
    It is the large chain stores, supermarkets and multinational fast food, hardware and big box stores that pay minimum wage. And it is the extra profit they make which is removed forever from the community.

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  51. The average wage has gone up, just not as fast as productivity and inflation, especially inflation in necessities.

    Unfortunately that has been distorted by large rises for those at the top. 17% last year for the top incomes. Less than 2% for everyone else.

    The median wage, or better still median family income, gives a much better idea of the real wage and/or income drop for the majority.

    Especially if you show the real inflation on necessities in lower income areas.

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  52. It’s pointless debating it with someone who does not know what it is and is making criticisms that are less than relevant.

    =

    I cant answer you as I (SPC) dont understand it myself.

    Are you a Green party hack that follows without question what the leadership says?

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  53. Gerrit, you were making comments that indicate you did not know what Norman proposed to do.

    First you claimed that he intended to print money to create government jobs.

    I replied that “I supect that you know very well that Norman proposed to fund the Earthquake Fund to invest offshore and otherwise to finance the rebuild in Christchurch”

    You then cynically distorted that to mean “so the Greens are proposing to print money, invest offshore and use the interest to pay for the CHCH rebuild?”

    A deliberatley distorted and hardly valid analysis of what I said.

    You were simply in this to make false claims about the Green policy, not honestly debate.

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  54. SPC,

    So any money printed in New Zealand will be put into a fund and invested overseas?

    Simple question

    Yes or No.

    And do you think it is a good idea to have money flowing from New Zealand to an overseas investment and reverse flow back to New Zealand for spending in Christchurch?

    Surely it would be simpler, more efficient, and make much more sense to just print the money when and as requiring by state spend in Christchurch.

    Printing a swag of money, investing it overseas (just where exactly?) simply to return it later does not make sense.

    It would make BJ mad to have bankers involved in these financial transfers. ;-)

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  55. One can only guess, as to why you continue to comment on this thread in apparent ignorance of what Norman said. And why you would.

    You yourself linked to what Norman said back on October 8, but apparently still pretend you do not know. On that day, on two different threads, you argued two different positions, that the consequent inflation would be ruinous and that the amount of money Norman proposed to use would not move the dollar.

    One can only guess you are only interested in misrepresenting what Norman proposed.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1 (0)


  56. Greens co-leader Russel Norman yesterday suggested the Reserve Bank create currency to do two things he believes would take pressure off the NZ dollar:

    •Refill the natural disaster fund of the Earthquake Commission depleted by the Christchurch earthquakes.

    •Buy earthquake recovery bonds for the Government’s costs in the rebuilding of Christchurch, rather than the bonds being issued to largely overseas lenders.

    Why nobody else can be bothered to do this today I have NO idea.

    :-)

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  57. I am still wondering what Gerrit’s motive was for falsely claiming that Norman intended to print money to create government jobs and then playing dumb about what the policy was when called on this.

    Certainly given the original confusion with the inconsistent claims of ruinous inflation and there not being enough money involved to impact on the dollar – it’s rather suggestive of someone who wants to have a convincing reason to oppose it, but is struggling so much to find one he now has to invent reasons.

    He should simply surrender to the obvious, the GFC has ended the capacity of government to rely on sovereign debt alone to manage the economic cycle.

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  58. SPC,

    Your inability to answer a simple question is telling.

    So you dont know if printed money will be invested overseas?

    Simple Yes or No will suffice.

    Regarding the question if you personally think it is a good idea to do that, remains unanswered as well.

    Ah well, one can only ask for answers but the stalling tackticks you are displaying are, as I said telling.

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  59. I had thought photonz supreme at squirming around in debate.

    You ask that question, after this post at 9.45pm yesterday?

    Gerrit,

    You know very well that Norman proposed to fund the Earthquake Fund to invest offshore and otherwise to finance the rebuild in Christchurch, not fund state government jobs.

    And its unskilled workers who are limited in their job options and thus encouraging and enabling unskilled youth to leave school at 16 and become dependent on such jobs is lunacy.

    (back on topic).

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  60. SPC – Gerrit Whatever was forgotten, misquoted, typo’d or misunderstood, this is no longer amusing or useful. You are both adults I usually respect and I am becoming convinced that aliens are beaming a “grumpy” ray at this planet… :-)

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  61. BJ,

    Haha, no grumpyness here, (though I did once call a sailboat Grumpy’s Toy once – but that is another story).

    Just astounded that simple questions go unanswered.

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  62. I can deal with disagreement and debate, but if someone is deliberately misrepresenting, I call them on it.

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  63. Greens, where would it end? Where would you stop your abusive use of force if you got into power?

    When everything is nationalised?
    When everyone earns the same?

    I am cusrious as to how hard sensible people have to fight this awful communist blight.

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  64. @Rapidflyer

    I am curious what, in this entire thread, you found that had anything to do with the use of force?

    Can you provide any evidence for your assertions? There is no such evidence here. Perhaps you meant to post in a different thread?… but there is no evidence of any of the things you are asserting in ANY of our threads.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 (0)

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