43 thoughts on “General debate, September 24, 2012

  1. Take a look at this video:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cebPMy3_qOI

    Now how do you educate this mother into being a better parent? You can’t. She is herself a child abuse victim. In her (subjective) world the baby truly deserves what it’s getting. She is emotionally detached from her baby and sees her through her own projection. She is actually in her own world, seeing through a kind of dream, like all people who are emotionally cut-off.

    This is what child abuse does. It re-structures the psychological world people live in. This is why we must have reproduction licenses.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 4 (-1)

  2. Andrew – yesterday I was driving along a suburban street and there was a two year old playing on the road. I slowed right down and saw her mother sitting on her front step smoking a cigarette, not doing a thing.

    My kids were gobsmacked, and asked why a mother would let her toddler play by herself on the road. It’s not something I could answer.

    Unless we get people to better prepare emotionally and financially before they have children, any other policy is nothing more than tinkering around the edges and will not make the sort of differences we need.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0 (+4)

  3. From sprouts link

    “Dr Wills says 40% of all pregnancies are unplanned, and these unplanned pregnancies are more likely to occur in younger and lower income groups.”

    There’s all our problems in a nutshell.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0 (+3)

  4. photonz1,

    I agree, but ‘better preparation’ means avoiding serious damage in early childhood and infancy.

    Later education can help, but in many ways it is and only can be a sugar coating over an inherently toxic cake. Nature gives a child profound pain signals when they are abused – so profound that those pain signals must be repressed to avoid, literally, death. Most of us would be dead from birthing even, if we couldn’t repress parts of it (and indeed some babies do die from it).

    A child abuse victim, on a core level, lives in a totally different subjective world to others. Everything you say (and educate) to them ultimately has a qualitatively different meaning to them; that subjective world of theirs, emotionally imprinted in childhood, is going nowhere.(excluding the controversial possibility of regressive psychotherapy).

    http://andrewatkin.blogspot.co.nz/2009/06/understanding-mental-sickness.html

    We need a combination of education for everyone, solid support for mothers with babies between conception and the first year of life (especially), and reproductive restrictions on our most emotionally damaged citisens.

    All of this is 20x bigger than our obsession with pushing kids through university, and the like.

    Priorities!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0 (+1)

  5. Rogue spies or coverup at the highest level?

    In trying to say there is no warrant, Key is expecting us to believe that the entire chain of command has failed, and the GCSB is acting like a rogue agency, which goes far beyond it being a simple “disappointing mistake” by the Director Ian Fletcher. If the entire chain of command has failed because of gross incompetence, John Key as the Minister in charge is responsible…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 4 (-2)

  6. Is Julie-Anne Genter backing the wrong [Iron] horse?

    Quoting the following article: “But Portland does have a substantial success missed by The Economist. Working at home is growing rapidly. From 1980 to 2011, working at home (mostly telecommuting) increased by 55,000. This is more than three times the growth in rail transit commuting (17,500).”

    http://www.newgeography.com/content/003096-the-road-less-understood

    We should be investing in phone lines – not train tracks.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 (0)

  7. Andrew

    Your first mistake in your first argument:

    “Clearly there is no reasonable argument to preserve farmland, of which there is plenty and is hardly affected by sprawl.”

    Once you’ve urbanized over farmland it is gone. Very hard to recover. It is often some of the most productive land and, it is also often in the floodplains. That’s going to bite us, even in the next 100 years. As climate change moves our coastlines and the rainfall gets more “irregular”.

    Check Google Earth around “Bay of Plenty” and Tauranga and Auckland. Examine the altitude above sea level. This isn’t precise but it gives a good feel for the land that is at risk when the ocean rises.

    The actual likelihood that the city of Auckland will remain in anything like its current shape is pretty near zero in any case. Moreover, the new North-North Island and South North Island are apt to need a new bridge-tunnel-causeway. Might as well start planning that now while it is still above water and easy to do.

    With the destruction of farm productivity in the REST of the world we are going to have more market and much more demand for our produce. Which means that keeping land in cultivation IS reasonable.

    So goes the first of your arguments. Not really a big point. Just the first.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0 (+1)

  8. Intensification leads to much more traffic congestion than with sprawl. With the ARC’s intensification goals, cars will become basically dysfunctional.

    What’s this “become” kimosabe? They are dysfunctional in Auckland NOW, and are a symptom of the abject failures in public transit and transit planning in Auckland over half a century of development (and lack thereof).

    The entire point to the intensified city is to make the car unnecessary. This happens in places like NYC and Moscow and Paris. It fails in places like LA

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0 (+1)

  9. Transit-oriented development is basically an act of forcing an entire city to evolve to meet the needs of a rail system, and at the expense of the operability of cars.

    You are arguing here from the assumption that cars are better than trains and always going to be the dominant transport mode. That is not in evidence. Nor would most New Yorkers or Muscovites agree with you on it. As a New Yorker I know. You can’t make the assumption that the public transit will never get above 20% market share and at the same time claim that the city is being planned around transit. Not that it is/was. If it were I would have to regard the planners as entirely incompetent to tie their shoelaces… which might explain the popularity of gumboots and jandals…

    There is a post-hoc issue with item 4 though. This carries through to invalidate 5.

    All I have time for this morning. Maybe I will continue this later.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 (0)

  10. bjchip,

    The Green party can do no wrong? Oh yes they can. Don’t rationalise their junk.

    1. 0.8% of NZ urbanised. 40% is food production. True we can radically reduce the tarmac in new developments, with new automated technology. Houses can be mandated to be 2-stories high if we insist. The result is a negligible footprint. It already is negligible. People can also then grow food in their backyards. How about rooftop gardens, as well? I have always said we can easily adapt sprawl if we are to be environmentally obsessed.

    2. Auckland traffic is dysfunctional now? Yes – I know. Largely in part the result of forced intensification. Metropolitan Auckland is now a high density city (though not compared to Manhattan, London, Tokyo and Paris, which are isolated examples of “freak” density).

    3. In terms of providing service, and matching origins-to-destinations efficiently, cars are vastly superior to collective PT, at least with properly managed traffic volumes and proper densities to accommodate them. As the cost of oil increases, cars will be modified to respond to this problem such as:

    http://www.gizmag.com/lit-motors-c1-self-balancing-motorcycle/21002/

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1 (-1)

  11. Kim dot com for New Zealander of the year!
    Every day his story gets more and more fantastic.
    If you’d written this script it would have been rejected as too far from reality.
    More please!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 2 (+1)

  12. Andrew – I scrap with various aspects and members of the party regularly enough to be perfectly aware that there can be what I regard as errors in both the approach and the policies of the party. There are some fairly big ones in fact.

    However, that wasn’t what this is about.

    Point one you raise just now is – as it always will be – irrelevant. The utter inefficiency of producing food in the manner you describe is probably OK in terms of employing people in innocent ways, but it has nothing to do with meeting the needs of a planet that is quite likely to get real hungry when all the chickens that come home to roost turn out to be hungry too.

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/breaking/la-fi-mo-pork-bacon-shortage-20120924,0,6240960.story

    However, I never regarded the farmland being taken away by the houses being a particularly severe problem in the Auckland area… it is a moot point as the land will be underwater anyway. I am pointing out that the general issue is real. You can’t make the claim you made about there being “no reasonable argument”.

    The rest of your argument here (I’ll get to the rest of the stuff on your site later) is unconvincing as well. Auckland is “high density” in the same way as suburbs of LA are “high density”, the vertical dwellings aren’t present. It is row after row after road after road of single level single family houses. Living on the 5th floor of an apartment building with an apartment of 120 meters and in walking distance to the metro rail ? Well that’s a sort of fantasy, but it would be a viable and quite livable alternative to the random firewood assembled in the shape of a house that gets sold for half a million dollars in Auckland today.

    It is LA without the luxury of being able PHYSICALLY to spread out. People drive in from quite far away… there is no actual impediment to building anywhere in LA, but the price of land and the price of houses is comparable… because it IS a city. People WANT to live in the city. Contrary to your prejudice, people DO want to live IN the city and cannot because there are no suitable accommodations there. What there are, are single family single structures on microscopic plots of land which are both inefficient uses of space and utterly dependent on automobiles.

    The funny thing is I LIKE cars. Natural born motorhead. Love to drive fast. Even like driving in NYC as it is a sort of challenge… except for the depth of the potholes and the consequent dental bills.

    The only way I’d LIVE in NYC though, is carless… because the public transit is faster, and that goes for Moscow even moreso… you can move, and move reliably, around those cities much more efficiently without the car than with it, and you can easily find yourself enjoying the process. It is different from cars. It caters to a larger group of people than cars. It makes a difference to a city.

    Auckland was not designed, it just grew. It has a paucity of land anywhere near it, built on OR farmed.

    Really Andrew… the important factors are the distance and the dysfunctional way the rest of the homebuilding industry, laws, regulations and city councils work in NZ. I described it once to the RE agent I had back in the US, and he almost choked… and when he stopped laughing he asked me how the RE industry here managed to get such a set of conditions in place. I think he wanted to duplicate it for fun and a LOT of profit, but I don’t think it could be done in the USA.

    Which isn’t to say that there should be “limits” on where one can build houses close to the city. That bit is part of the problem, but that isn’t a problem with urban intensification, it is simply a problem with the housing industry here.

    I have to call it a day here. Later.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0 (+1)

  13. bjchip.

    I’m not going to argue with you on this topic. It will go on forever. Your thinking mode in this topic is a circus, to me, and I’m not going to spend 2 hours debunking it – you’ll just come back at me with one off-the-target rationalisation after then next. Tedious and fruitless.

    BTW: My very original comment was relating to what I believe is your need to make your thinking into what the Green party thinks. Dude you shouldn’t bother – they will not make you a politician. You are not the ‘type’ they want (and you can take that as a compliment).

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1 (0)

  14. Spooks – a law unto themselves

    It’s apparent that the GCSB routinely spies on the electronic communications of New Zealand citizens and residents. In doing so it grossly breaches our right to privacy and ignores the well defined laws it’s meant to adhere to. The lack of proper oversight and avenues for redress when things go wrong shows that the current system is not operating in the best interests of the country or its people. But what’s going to be done about the problem? Absolutely nothing while John Key is in charge…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 3 (0)

  15. Jackal – they’ve nothing better to do…..Samiam – Kim.Com can afford the Lawyers – I found his comments today on the NZ Court ‘System’ to be precisely in line with my experience.

    I wonder if it is dawning on the Maori Party, Peter Dunne et al, that they have sold their Votes to Briefcase Investments – a troup that will shift the Goalposts, the Law, dissemble Human Rights all to prop up some very suspect ego’s and concepts.
    Poor Fella My Country!

    And just as I thought Winnie had found himself at last…..

    I am going to hire a bus next Polling Day – give the voiceless a whisper of hope!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1 (+1)

  16. Jackal – you’re so anal. In every city and town in Australia (and probably most of the world) this sort of tracking happens to catch even minor criminals – except the police mainly do it themselves.

    It’s rediculous that we can track suspected criminals depending on the type of visa they have, and the status that visa is given by immigration at the time (which changes when immigrations rules change)…..instead of anything to do with the crime they have allegedly committed.

    It just shows that we need to give the police the resources to do this sort of work themselves, then it would have been legal and they wouldn’t have to rely on the GCSB and working around stupid technicalities that have nothing to do with the alleged crime.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1 (0)

  17. photon

    Jackal – you’re so anal.

    What’s annal about me wanting the GCSB to abide by the law? The Government Communications Security Bureau Act 2003 wasn’t written to be ignored photon. Those laws are defined to ensure the gathering of private information is undertaken in a proper manner to ensure the publics liberties are protected.

    The lame excuse that immigration rules have changed means nothing… Kim Dotcom has been a resident of New Zealand since November 23, 2010. The changes to immigration criteria since then doesn’t change the fact that he was illegally spied upon at all.

    The SIS and MCSD were given more than $112 million last year. In my opinion, if they cannot adhere to a few small “technicalities” of understanding what residency means, the scope of their mandate should be vastly reduced and their budgets slashed.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2 (-1)

  18. Jackal asks “What’s annal about me wanting the GCSB to abide by the law? ”

    What’s anal, is making a minor technical error by a police officer into a huge conspiracy theory.

    It was legal if it was a different type of visa.

    It was legal a few months earlier before the visa status changed.

    It was legal a few months earlier before immigration changed the rules around the status of some types of visas.

    It was legal if the police did it.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2 (-1)

  19. photon

    What’s anal, is making a minor technical error by a police officer into a huge conspiracy theory.

    The error is Key’s because he’s the boss and undoubtedly got briefed on the matter. It’s also Bill English’s for trying and failing to suppress the information and the GCSB’s for knowingly breaching the law.

    Kerry Thomas

    Photo wants to live in a country where police can spy on any of us at will and break the law with impunity.

    You’re such a fascist photon.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2 (-1)

  20. Kerry – you should learn the difference between what is actually said and what you make up in your head.

    Because when you make an extreme position that no one has argued for, then falsely ascribe it to someone – you look either stupid or dishonest.

    Perhaps you need some reading lessons.

    Jackal says “The error is Key’s because he’s the boss ”

    So what about any time one of 35,000 teachers, cops, doctors, etc make a mistake, gets a speeding ticket in a work car etc, – is that all Key’s fault too?

    Your handle on the real world is slipping.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1 (0)

  21. Photo. It is you that is arguing police should be immune from the law. Rather extreme I would think. And you that tried to ascribe an opposition to NACT standards into an opposition to all testing.

    We already know you cannot read research.

    Projection much.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 2 (0)

  22. photon

    So what about any time one of 35,000 teachers, cops, doctors, etc make a mistake, gets a speeding ticket in a work car etc, – is that all Key’s fault too?

    You’re comparing people getting speeding tickets to the GCSB illegally spying on Dotcom and Bram van der Kolk… then have the gall to say I’m the one living on Planet Key? Honestly photon.

    Just to make this perfectly clear, Key is the Minister in charge and therefore is responsible for what the GCSB is doing. In other words the buck stops with the PM.

    If you believe that Key knew nothing until recently about the GCSB’s unlawful activity, you’re more of a fool than I first thought photon… And that’s saying something.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 3 (-2)

  23. Jackal – you and the Greens keep on sticking up for Dotcom. Don’t worry about the hole you’re digging.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1 (0)

  24. Did you like the list of rape jokes Dotcom linked to recently on twitter?

    But what more would you expect from someone who made millons from exploiting girls on his numerous pornography sites.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2 (-1)

  25. They say those in power don’t realise when it all turned, nor do the rabid of their supporters.

    The tea party and the one seat party rort of Key to get Banks into parliament is now associated with illegal campaign activity by Banks (related to funds given by dotcom for the mayoralty) and his lying about it, and with Key allowing him to remain a Minister – despite there being doubts about his credibility in a position of trust under the Crown.

    Now illegal government activity in the ministry under Key, related to the same dotcom, and clearly a PM not having this ministry perform as it should under his leadership.

    The government is dying on its feet, the chances of it receiving another mandate are diminishing. It’s wounded and who knows to what new crisis it will stagger onto.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1 (0)

  26. Photonz1 – did you like the cannibalism joke John Key made before his meeting with Tuhoe?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 3 (-1)

  27. ¨ a minor technical error¨

    Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

    Major logical disconnect, right there!

    A belly laugh is a good way to start the day though, thanks photo!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 2 (+2)

  28. greenfly says “Major logical disconnect, right there!”

    Yeah right. A cop mistakes one type of visa for another, and people get hysterical about bringing down the prime minister.

    And then in an irony that’s obviously gone right over your head, you talk about a disconnect.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 6 (-5)

  29. Frog, I cannot post a comment in reply to photon’s rubbish for some reason. Could you please check if it’s gone to spam? Thanks.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 (0)

  30. A cop mistakes one type of visa for another…

    Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

    Syc
    opha
    ntic

    apo
    log
    ist

    photo
    nz1

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1 (+3)

  31. Better than being an apologist for a embezzling, fraudulent, snooping, inside trading person who makes money from porn peddling.

    Which begs the question. Was the person The Greens have gone into bat for making money from sites peddling pornographic images and movies of young eastern European girls who were really victims of human trafficking and sexual slavery?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 5 (-4)

  32. Key does all those things as well as being a used-car salesman?
    Thatś dreadful!
    And arent you a silly-billy with your ¨Greens going into bat¨ overheated fantasy!
    Get a grip, photo – you are sounding quite the pillock!
    There was a time when you used logic and some background knowledge to put up an argument. Those days are gone, it seems. Ive noticed, if I might be so bold as to say, that when you argue about something you have genuine knowledge of, and there are one or two areas where you sound knowledgable, you do quite well. However, when you take on a general topic, such as this spying business, you sound like a dullard. Just saying, cause I care.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 2 (+2)

  33. greenfly – one of the two agencies tracking Dotcom shouldn’t have been tracking him. Whoopee.

    The hysteria about this is on par with then hysteria about a cup of tea.

    The analy rententive of New Zealand think some major thing has happened.

    But it’s nothing different to what happens in every major town and city of most countries of the world on every day of the year.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 3 (-2)

  34. In the United States the FBI regularly employs Homeland Security to do their investigations for them when investigating copyright offences. Quack.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1 (+1)

  35. Solkta – it’s funny – my dog has this quaint ‘troll doll’ chew toy and when he gets his jaws around it and gives it the chomp, it makes the very same noise you describe in your responses to photonz1!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1 (0)

  36. Photonz1 gives illegal spying on New Zealand citizens the thumbs up!

    What say you, solkta?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1 (+1)

  37. Key has almost certainly, a far shadier past than Mssr Dotcom – his banking positions and the timing of his tenure with Merrill-Lynch and the Foreign Exchange Committee of the Federal Reserve Bank make it almost impossible for him NOT to have known of and abetted the fixing of the LIBOR rates. He clearly was in a position to know what was being done, and will just as clearly claim utter ignorance.

    The problem of course is that there will not be any proof. However, the aphorisms about laws only catching the small criminals still ring true.

    His banking mates called him “the smiling assassin” for crissakes – the disconnect of his face from his actions and emotions being so inhumanly complete. Certainly he would be a hell of a poker player.

    … and I would never trust him with anything.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1 (+3)

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