68 thoughts on “General debate, September 1, 2012

  1. You gotta love the ‘ol thumbs up/down system..I get a down for asking a question!
    I hope that person isn’t working in the education system.

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  2. We ask the questions, sam.
    You’re lucky it was only a thumbs-down.
    Could have been the thumb-screws.

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  3. As the West Coast whitebait season begins, a leading ecologist has warned some species are threatened with extinction, but overfishing is not to blame.

    Senior Lecturer in fresh water ecology at Massey University Mike Joy said there should be more control of farming and other industry that pollutes waterways.

    “We have really done some major damage to our rivers when you have two-thirds of our native fish on the threated species list and that’s as bad as anywhere in the world,” said Joy.

    “So this clean, green image that’s so crucial to us, we’re losing it fast. This is the miners’ canary telling us that we’ve gone too far.”

    http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/farming-threatens-whitebait-s-future-ecologist-5056520

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  4. Of course, he’s just a scientist with an opinion and John Key tells us that scientists are just like lawyers with their opinions!

    Then stop using these scientists in a disingenuous way with silly press releases.

    I note that no one actually said West Coast populations were under threat, yet that is the implication.

    Don’t get me wrong, I am keen to protect our native species and I see intensive dairying as a huge threat, but telling fibs or white lies simply invites the likes of John Key to call your bluff.

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  5. When it comes to scientists with opinions, there is a difference between academic physicists weighing in on economics and academic ecologists weighing in on the subset of ecology around which their research focuses.

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  6. Shunda, I was mocking Key, not agreeing with him. And might you let us know which press release has got you riled?

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  7. Valis, where is the link that shows West Coast whitebait are facing extinction?

    Because I don’t believe that for a second.

    I am really keen on galaxiids and find certain land management practices appalling, but I also understand the stupidity of making claims that people can so easily call bullshit on.

    It lets people like Key off the hook.

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  8. So you’re talking about the news story and not a press release? I don’t think tvnz was being disingenuous, though agree that reports (and press releases) should source their evidence.

    In my experience, Mike Joy is very thorough and forthcoming with his evidence, so have a look. I haven’t listened to these but a cursory search comes up with many links on this topic like these:

    http://www.3news.co.nz/Scientist-warns-whitebait-under-threat/tabid/367/articleID/70510/Default.aspx

    http://www.radiolive.co.nz/Environews-Whitebait-with-Mike-Joy/tabid/506/articleID/30252/Default.aspx

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  9. Beautiful Spring day in Wellington

    Ahhh Wellington, beware of the Doppelbock at the wee bar near the intersection of Bowen St and Tinakori road…

    Yes Kevin Hagues assistant (I think?) you were sitting next to me!! :)………….
    Mwaaa ha ha ha ha! :)

    P.S. Did “grass carp guy” get home safely? (nice salmon shirt!!)

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  10. When I say “Mwaaa ha ha ha ha!” I mean nothing by it!, I just realized the last post could be interpreted several ways and I don’t want to get anyone in trouble :(

    That place has some amazing beer, I think some of it is brewed in Nelson?
    10 bucks a pint though!

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  11. Kevin Hague’s assistant has an apostrophe.

    (Tattooed on her right shoulder)

    Mwaaa ha ha ha ha!

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  12. I am that tattooed assistant (at least, in my dreams.)

    That shirt, btw, used to be mine. Wish I’d never loaned it.

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  13. Anyone going to Steve Keen’s lectures this week?
    I’d certainly like to be.
    He was on Kim Hill on saturday. (well not Kim actually there was an impostor sitting in for her.)

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  14. Not going to the workshops, but just finished Keen’s book, which is a must read for anyone wanting to know why the world’s financial system is screwed.

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  15. I have a theoretical question (for those interested).

    If you knew the global economy was going to crash into the worst depression in history in 12 months time, what would you do to prepare? what would you spend your next 12 months wages/salary on and why?

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  16. What do you mean “theoretical” Shunda :-)

    Not sure there is anything much one can DO.

    Things from overseas are going to become harder to get.

    Food here will in some manner, continue to be available simply because it is grown here.

    Those two probable results should suggest some strategies. Not sure what will actually WORK though.

    What do we import that would be tradable and would keep well.

    Hmmmm???

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  17. Well that’s no help BJ!

    So if all NZ farms went broke and couldn’t pay their mortgages, would the government have to ‘acquire’ them to feed the population? Would the government even be able to do that?

    I am trying to plan the size of the potato patch I may need to feed my family! :)

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  18. collect as many of the local community as possible to grow veges, upgrade everyone’s houses – plan a resilient community in short. Already happening in some places.

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  19. Shunda

    WE are the government, and we can do anything we have to do and decide must be done. Including acquiring and running farms, or forgiving debt or otherwise keeping society functioning, even in the absence of outside “help” (like the money the banks provide).

    Moreover, in that last case, the government SHOULD have taken over the issuance of money already. It will make it easier to cope on our lonesome.

    However, the potato patch is an EXCELLENT idea. A couple of chickens if you are “rural” enough. Even (if you are brave) a beehive or two.

    These things don’t take so much space, though they can be labor intensive.

    BJ

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  20. Hmmm… I was thinking of buying some cans of good quality coffee and cocoa.

    No caffeine or chocolate? That WOULD be the end of civilization!

    BJ

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  21. BJ says “A view of the model of schooling that National is attempting to imitate.”

    The govt spends $2b more on PUBLIC education than the previous govt. That’s 2000 million dollars more – EVERY YEAR.

    That’s a massive increase, but any attempt to measure performance to see if all that spending has made any difference is fought tooth and nail.

    So what difference has such a massive increase in funding had?

    Has it made any difference at all?

    Who knows?

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  22. Do you have a link to back up that $2 billion claim photon?

    ACC’s corrupt specialists

    Clearly the current regime of ACC specialists declining people’s claims without justification and often contradicting existing medical assessments isn’t in the best interest of people’s rehabilitation…

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  23. jackal asks “Do you have a link to back up that $2 billion claim photon?”

    Just look at the last budget and you’ll see the current govt are spending 2000 million dollars more per year (20% more) on education than the last budget from the Labour govt.

    You can see why teachers unions are so desperate to stop National Standards.

    They are desperate to stop any measurement that shows a massive increase in spending has failed to give a similar increase in results.

    And it shows up those who parrot on about cuts to education funding as people who disregard facts and spout b/s.

    Labour spent 10,000 million on education in it’s last budget. In a recession, the current govt is spending 12,000 million.

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  24. Nice try photon

    In fact the allocation of education funding as a total government expenditure was 18.6% in 2007 under Labour. It was only 17.5% in 2011 under National.

    After slashing adult community night class funding, enviro school funding was also cut and low decile state schools are seeing serious reductions in their budgets. Although National increased funding for private schools and other costs have meant an overall increase, after accounting for inflation the net effect is less funding going to the areas where it’s needed the most.

    Your argument that Teacher Unions are against national standards because it would show them up is equally feckless!

    Did you realise that New Zealand went into a recession in 2008 and it ended in 2009. So why is the rightwing still using it as an excuse for their economic failure?

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  25. Jackal – thanks for providing the perfect example of how people are trying to portray a $2000 million increase as a cut.

    And you think the GFC ended three years ago =- what planet are you on?

    Certainly not this one.

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  26. You were talking about New Zealands recession photon, not the global financial crisis.

    Are you saying that adult community night classes, enviro school and low decile state schools haven’t had their funding cut since National gained power? Because if that’s the case you’d be wrong!

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  27. Notice Photo is careful not to quote the change in total funding per head, including extra assistance, against inflation, for State education.

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  28. How can a wooly, narrow and badly moderated test such as NACT standards show Teachers up?

    Teachers that deliver the best value for money education system in the world. All the countries that do it better are much better funded.

    The worry is delusional worshippers at the altar of the neo-liberal free market will use them to justify more cuts in funding, wages and Teacher numbers.

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  29. Kerry says “Notice Photo is careful not to quote the change in total funding per head, including extra assistance, against inflation, for State education.”

    Total primary school funding per student has gone from $4469 in 2007 to $5881 in 2012. (31% increase)

    Total secondary funding per student has gone from $6072 in 2007 to $7573 in 2012. (25% increase)

    Tertiary funding per student has gone from $14,443 in 2007 to $16,118 in 2012.(11.5% increase)

    Special needs support has gone from $263 million to $321 million (22% increase)

    Total funding for ALL education has gone from $9,268 million in 2007 to $11,883 million in 2012.(a 28% increase, during tough financial times).

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  30. The Greens repeatedly say there have been massive cuts to early childhood education. The figures are as follows.

    In 2007 $617 million was spent on early childhood education. In 2012 it is $1,344 million (a 117% total increase).

    Per child, it has gone from $5016 in 2007 to $8195 in 2012 (a 63% increase per child).

    As well, the participation rate has gone up a massive 33% from 123,000 in 2007 to 164,000 children in 2012 (based on full time 1000 hrs per child).

    No government in the history of New Zealand has come even close to such massive increases spending on early childhood education.

    But we still get dishonest and unethical politicians trying to deceive the public that there have been massive cuts from what was spent previously.

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  31. Jackal says “So why is the rightwing still using it as an excuse for their economic failure?”

    Jobs have grown so there are now 103,000 more full time jobs than in 2007.

    GDP (in USD) has gone from $110 billion to $142 billion.

    We have lower unemployment than most OECD countries.

    There are few countries anywhere in the world whose economies have come through the GFC as well as ours.

    However I wouldn’t be surpried if your cultish negativity only allows you to see bad things.

    How else could you see a $2000+ million annual increase in education spending as a cut?

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  32. However I wouldn’t be surpried if your cultish negativity only allows you to see bad things.

    I think that is a given, it amazes me that some people think cutting funding to calligraphy and stained glass courses, or polytech courses studying lame ducks is somehow a reduction in core education.

    They are simply bemoaning the fact that Labours little socialist fluff programs are now at an end.

    P.S, I have nothing against calligraphy or stained glass, I just think enthusiast groups can cover this sort of thing organically withing the community, which leads to better quality courses anyway.

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  33. Here we go again. National had nothing to do with the increases from 2007 to 2008. Which is why Photo is bundling Labour’s increases, to avoid showing Nationals cuts. And added in money going to private schooling.

    National has cut in real terms since 2008.

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  34. National has cut in real terms since 2008

    Ha! are you serious? in real terms you yourself just proved they haven’t.

    National have axed socialist fluff programs that delivered nothing. All of those programs could continue if people wanted them to but no one does and so here we are.

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  35. “National have axed socialist fluff programs that delivered nothing. All of those programs could continue if people wanted them to but no one does and so here we are.”
    What nonsense, Shunda!
    Those ‘fluff’ programmes were the stuff that creates and binds communities where the traditional ‘meeting places’ have gone. There’s far more value in a ‘learn to knit’ evening class than you seem to be aware of. Those who benefit most from such classes are not in a position to effectively demand their retention in the face of a Government determined to prune the sorts of things their ideology doesn’t favour – liberal arts and crafts are dispensible, from their point of view. Narrow thinking, socially destructive behaviour from National.
    What’s new?

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  36. Greenfly, I am not suggesting there is anything wrong with community programs, the problem is paying people to do it.

    In my experience this usually leads to a stale, sterile environment that suits very few people.

    If community groups take charge of the situation independently from government, a much better (and longer lasting) group evolves.

    I have seen these little socialist set ups rob other groups of legitimacy and stability, it has had a terrible effect on people in my community that do things for the right motives.

    A great example of what happens when the state interferes where it shouldn’t.

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  37. Every tertiary institution has had a significant funding cut to its core business as well as its ACE courses. Every tutor has to take more students for the same rate of pay.

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  38. photon

    How else could you see a $2000+ million annual increase in education spending as a cut?

    We have not established that there has been an overall increase at all.

    Today, the NZ Herald reported:

    Asked if she was concerned about the increase in donations, Education Minister Hekia Parata said it was up to boards of trustees to set donations. She said the Government had increased funding for education every year to $9.6 billion this year.

    So either Hekia Parata is wrong or there are other costs included in that budgeted figure photon. If $9,268 million was spent in 2007 and $9,600 million is being spent in 2012, that doesn’t even match inflation of 14.5% over that time period. National should be spending at least $10,612 in direct school funding just to match inflation. If Parata is correct, they are currently $1 billion under budgeting education.

    Total primary school funding per student has gone from $4469 in 2007 to $5881 in 2012. (31% increase).

    Looks like you’re including the additional ECE funding of $1.17 billion in that figure photon. BTW, that’s Labour’s policy you’re trying to take credit for and was only kept because National got a right public backlash when they floated the idea of reducing it.

    Reports show that adult education, kindergartens, enviro and lower decile schools have all had their funding cut. Giving private schools more and having additional administration costs to try and impose stupid policy does not equate to an overal increase.

    Jobs have grown so there are now 103,000 more full time jobs than in 2007.

    I really have to question the validity of your figures there photon. Could you link to where you have attained them from?

    In what world is the unemployment rate increasing to 6.7% with 56,000 more people unemployed under National a good thing? How can there be an increase in fulltime jobs if there are more unemployed and in some months a net migration loss? There has been no growth in full time jobs… There has been growth in part time jobs.

    Please try not to get confused there photon e.g. the GFC is not the same as the New Zealand recession.

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  39. Kerry says “National has cut in real terms since 2008″

    Kerry – what utter and total cr@p you are spouting.

    Total Education spending
    2007 $9269 million (under Labour)
    2008 $9551 million (mainly under Labour)
    2009 $11,455 million (oooh – that’s a big jump)
    2012 $11,883 million (this year even more)
    2013 $12,387 million (budgeted)

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  40. Soltka starts spouting total nonsense as well

    “Every Kindergarten in New Zealand has suffered considerable funding cuts.”

    The Kindergarten Association says “New Zealand Kindergarten (NZK) Response to the 2012 Budget

    “Additional funding to support increased participation in early childhood education is welcome news,” said Clare Wells, Chief Executive of New Zealand Kindergartens.

    The 2012 budget has allocated an additional $110.9 million for early childhood education: $47.9 million in new equity funding for target communities; $43.9 million to meet the costs of the additional children who will be participating in early childhood education as a result of welfare reforms; and $19.1 million for Maori-medium early childhood education services.”

    In 2007 $617 million was spent on early childhood education. In 2012 it is $1,344 million (a 117% total increase).

    Per child, it has gone from $5016 in 2007 to $8195 in 2012 (a 63% increase per child).

    Soltka has gone qwackers and thinks this is a cut to every kindergarten in the country.

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  41. Jackal – Just look at the quarterly job surveys. They show full time equivalent job numbers have gone up by 103,000 (from 2,127,000 FTEs in 2007 to 2,230,000 in 2012).

    Unemployment is up, like pretty much every country in then world, but much lower than most.

    And your arguement about the difference between the GFC and NZ recession is really dumb – because it undermines your own arguement. Because we have not been in recession, that means our economy is GROWING !!!! Duh!!!!

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  42. How can they justify spending any more?

    We are broke.

    Time to make it user pays.

    Broke.

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  43. Photo. Again avoiding the real issue. Funding, per head, for State schools, for spending on actual education, against the rise in costs.

    You are talking crap!

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  44. Anyone who thinks we are not in recession has not observed the empty shops in provincial towns. The same as there were in the 80’s with Rogernomics, and later with Ruthanasia.

    In fact, compared with Australia, since the mid 80’s we have been in permanent recession.

    Considering we have had something of a recent boom in dairy exports, it shows NACT’s handling of the economy has been even more abysmal than Labours.

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  45. Full time employment on minimum wage is not a job. It is tax funded slavery.

    Interesting that it would cost twice as much to keep a slave healthy and working.

    It certainly looks like recession to everyone, except the few who keep awarding themselves 17% wealth increases.

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  46. Kerry – you are funny.

    There has been a huge increase in education funding, and huge increases in funding per head, along with a massive increase in numbers participating in early childhood education.

    Your cultish beliefs won’t allow you to see this as a good thing.

    You think it must be bad, not because of what has actually happened, but because who was in charge at the time.

    The fact that you are so desperate to find something wrong with massively increase education spending shows just how brainwashed you are.

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  47. I have no interest in finding things wrong on the basis of who did it – but all tertiary institutions have had large cuts. Ours at $5 million is one of the smallest.Did that all go to pre-school then? If so, why was the early childhood centre we were poised to get going here have its funds frozen then denied after 2011?

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  48. Why not quote the other bit as well photon:

    “While there is no increase to the overall universal rates paid to early childhood services to meet increased costs, the status quo represents a degree of stability for services,” said Wells.

    Get that… Photon quotes from someone saying there has been no increase to the overall universal rates paid to early childhood services, and somehow deludedly thinks this backs up his argument. As previously stated, funding as a total government expenditure was 18.6% in 2007 under Labour and only 17.5% in 2011 under National.

    …And did you know it was Labour’s policy to increase funding for ECE. So after extensive cut backs of $400 million in the 2010 budget that cut funding for over 2000 services and 93,000 children, National’s token gesture amounts to “no increase to the overall universal rates paid to early childhood services” according to Clare Wells, Chief Executive of New Zealand Kindergartens.

    Meanwhile Hekia Parata states the exact amount of funding allocated to education as $9.6 billion. Take into account inflation and the net result is actually a cut in education funding of $1 billion since National gained power… Hence the extensive amount of articles written about the matter. Why don’t you try reading some of them.

    The thing you seem to be forgetting photon is that the job creation rate needs to match or better the job destruction rate. National’s policy effect on the employment rate is a net loss, hence the additional thousands of unemployed New Zealanders. This is particularly concerning with youth not in employment, education, or training, who are now in excess of 84,000. If you think that’s a success story photon, you need your head read.

    If anybody has a cultish belief system in the rightwing agenda it’s you photon. Get real!

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  49. Jackal – you prove my point. You are desperate to find something wrong with a massive increase in –
    – funding for early childhood education (up 117% from $617m in 2007 to $1344m in 2012)
    – funding per child in early childhood education (63% increase from $5016 per child in 2007 to $8195 in 2012 )
    – numbers of children participating in early childhood education (up 33% from 123,000 in 2007 to 164,000 in 2012).

    Jackal says “:The thing you seem to be forgetting photon is that the job creation rate needs to match or better the job destruction rate. National’s policy effect on the employment rate is a net loss, ”

    Jeeze you’re thick. The increase of 103,000 is for the TOTAL number of jobs.

    That’s ALL jobs. So it takes into account new jobs and lost jobs. And obviously the number of newe jobs created is 103,000 MORE than the number lost.

    So we have hundreds of millions more spent on ECE, and 103,000 more jobs, but you are brainwashed to the point where you couldn’t possibly accept that anything good can happen. That’s cultish.

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  50. photon

    Jackal – you prove my point. You are desperate to find something wrong…

    There’s nothing desperate about providing facts photon.

    with a massive increase in –

    Hekia Parata as Minister of Education has stated that funding for education will be $9.6 billion in 2012… That would constitute a reduction in funding since 2007. If she is wrong then she’s a bit to stupid to be a minister of the crown.

    - funding for early childhood education (up 117% from $617m in 2007 to $1344m in 2012)

    Because of Labours ECE policy. National actually cut ECE funding in 2010 by $400 million.

    - funding per child in early childhood education (63% increase from $5016 per child in 2007 to $8195 in 2012 )

    Ditto! Stop trying to take credit for Labours policy photon.

    - numbers of children participating in early childhood education (up 33% from 123,000 in 2007 to 164,000 in 2012).

    Which has what exactly to do with the National party?

    Jeeze you’re thick. The increase of 103,000 is for the TOTAL number of jobs.

    The Finance Minister Bill English said just this month that 54,000 new jobs had been created. So who is correct?

    I’m basing my argument on the latest job creation to job destruction figures from Statistics NZ (PDF) fig 3.1 page 12. You will note that job destruction was at its highest in 2009 since records began. Job creation also declined in 2009. Of course National has ensured these figures are not updated so they can spout a pile of rubbish like photon.

    Either way, it’s far less than the 170,000 jobs National has promised in nearly every one of their budgets eh!

    That’s ALL jobs. So it takes into account new jobs and lost jobs. And obviously the number of newe jobs created is 103,000 MORE than the number lost.

    You haven’t linked to anything that shows 103,000 new FTE’s jobs have been created since National gained power photon. I’ll ask again… If unemployment has increased, there are now 83,000 NEET’s and imigration hasn’t accounted for it, how can there possibly be 103,000 new FTE’s since Nact came to power?

    So we have hundreds of millions more spent on ECE, and 103,000 more jobs, but you are brainwashed to the point where you couldn’t possibly accept that anything good can happen. That’s cultish.

    You really are the king of ad hominum photon… Pity about your argument though.

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  51. Jackal spouts total bullsh!t yet again “Because of Labours ECE policy. National actually cut ECE funding in 2010 by $400 million.”

    Early Childhood Education funding has been –
    2007 $617m
    2008 $860m
    2009 $1030m
    2010 $1184m
    2011 $1340m
    2012 $1344m
    2013 $1402m (budgeted)

    And you try to say there was a $400 million cut in 2010 – it’s just part of the Greens campaign of lies.

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