by Jan Logie
I’m strangely sensitised to gender at the moment
Most of my life has lots of women in it. I think I might just be a woman’s woman. I have many good women friends, many of my campaign team were women and most of the places I’ve worked have had lots of women. It’s something I don’t usually even think about except for those rare occasions when someone voices a distrust or dislike of working with women and it seems so strange to me.
So I’m probably particularly sensitised to gender because I have walked into a world which is so different from what I’m used to. I feel like I’ve entered a boys club.
People have already been writing about the drop in the number of women in parliament. We are now less than 33%. Thirty three percent is a magic figure. It’s the figure of normalisation if not equality. When women are below this proportion there is a subconscious message of not fitting, of not being the norm and a pressure to take on the behaviours of the dominant group. The National Party has only 25% women with only three in their top twenty and the Labour front bench has only two women. The speaker, deputy speaker and assistants are men. Most of the party whips/musterers are men. Yesterday in the House there were sexist comments, endless personal barracking, rugby analogies and only one speech from a woman (Metiria) in four hours of speeches.
The House looks and sounds like a boys club to me.
And it’s not just parliament.
My first visit to the koru club for an early morning flight was like walking into a room of suited men. There were other women there but the majority were men. Then the flight felt like some kind of boring geometrical wrapping paper of black, blue and white suits.
For our retreat we stayed at a hotel in central Auckland and there was one stage where we were having coffee at the end of the day and I looked up to find us surrounded by older white men in suits.
Maybe it’s not so strange that I’m sensitised to gender after all
What it must feel like to Māori or Pacifica women or trans people I can’t even imagine. I do know that I am exceptionally grateful to enter Parliament as part of a Green caucus that has a strong contingent of women (8) and an understanding of gender role stereotyping and the danger of binaries. At least this part of my world feels familiar and positive. I hope our numbers and culture will enable us to infuse some colour and create a voice and space for difference within this weird club.
Published in Justice & Democracy | Society & Culture by Jan Logie on Thu, December 22nd, 2011
on the trolls and those who are unable to keep on topic
Interestingly, I’m reading a book about the effects of inequality (if anyone’s interested it’s called The Spirit Level and I found the ebook on Kobo) and came across a part where it discussed a correlation between income inequality and gender inequality – not just gender income inequality, but representation in politics and public life, as well. The correlation wasn’t as strong as some others, but it was still stronger than could be explained by chance. Given that New Zealand’s income inequality is the fastest growing in the OECD it makes a depressing amount of sense that the number of woman MPs has dropped. It’s not even just bad news for women – apparently the death rate for both women and men is lower when the genders are more equal, and of course being represented by a more diverse group of people means that more of the population is likely to have their views heard. Men and women are socialised extremely differently and so often see and come at problems in very different ways.
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It is interesting that despite the fact that I have always been wary of grey men in suits and felt the image represented much that is wrong in the world today, I now find that I myself have become a greying man who often wears a suit and spends time sitting in Koru Lounges.
I hope that the Green’s female dominated caucus can shake that men’s club up a little and give some of those suited males in other parties the confidence to reveal their feminine sides without fear of being singled out by the likes of Trevor Mallard. Underneath many men in parliament are probably wanting an opportunity to operate in a different environment, a change of culture is needed. Good luck.
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Not normally by women, (they generally seem to appreciate good tradespeople) but by suits who do not understand the level of skills and intelligence involved in being a good builder or machinist.
The ones that think everyone who is not academic can be a tradesperson.
And the ones who want to dumb down technical skills by making it an academic course.
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Jan, Please don’t loose that feeling of being diffrent. It’s what makes being Green so special. We have (I believe) a diffrent way of looking at things which offers a real alternative.
The reason they all wear suits that are pretty much the same is to cover up thier own insecurities. Suit people are not as intimidating as they like to think they are.
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@Chris Miller, before you hold up the spirit level as some new holy text, perhaps you may want to read it’s deconstruction.http://www.amazon.co.uk/Spirit-Level-Delusion-Fact-checking-Everything/dp/0956226515
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Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
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- gender
- race
- and what they wear.
Jan – you say the Greens have an “understanding of gender role stereotyping” but you use derogatory terms like “boring” and “weird” to put down white men who wear suits – what are you doing yourself, if not “gender role stereotyping”?
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@Shunda barunda 11:59 PM
Shunda, I am a man who knows Jan well and has worked with her in the past. I can assure you that your assertion that she “hates men” is completely wrong – she and I had a very strong and healthy working relationship and chose to socialise together too on occasion.
@photonz1 12:53 AM
Jan is writing about how she personally feels in those situations. That is not “gender role stereotyping’ – it is her legitimate and genuine response to other people’s behaviour.
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Jan is actually stereotyping old white males in suits.
She is not looking at each of them as an individual but as a group.
She is stereotyping that group of people. Does she know for a fact they are older then her? Does she know they are all caucasian?
If she does not know this to be the case in each individual, she is stereotyping.
What I find worse is that she thinks that group (made up of individuals) as a “wierd club”.
I bet if she made an attempt to get to know each as an individual she would find colour, different voices, varying asperations (sp?), differing backgrounds and mostly a great bunch of quite ordinary New Zealand people.
But she choose to look at the group through stereotopic eyes and press the group label (old, white and suits = wierd club) on individual people.
Very immature
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I am concerned about the drop in numbers of women in parliament, and also about the NAct’s government’s tendency for male dominance in positions of power, and for policies that are damaging to large numbers of women (eg beneficiary-bashing focused on single mothers.)
I have always liked how the Greens have had a co-leadership policy. And I have preferred Metiria’s approach (and that of Rod Donald)to that of the suited Russel Norman. However, I just watched the Beatson interview with Mike Williams on Stratos.
Wiliams was talking about the Greens by reference to Russel as though he was the ONLY leader of the party, immediately re-inforced by Beatson referring to Norman as the “defacto leader of the Greens”. What’s happening here? And is the Green party, inadvertantly, playing into this perception?
Is it that there is currently a swing against women in power in the electorate or popular sentiments? Or is the National Party’s privileging of males in power defining the terms of discussion in the media and politics in a masculinist way?
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Gee Toad, you on occasion seem to communicate a strong ‘self loathing’ fairly well here.
If Jan isn’t prejudiced against men, she certainly has a very strange way of communicating that fact.
As others have pointed out, her words above tend to reveal her own gender bias which I find unfortunate.
Sadly, it seems to me that the greens may have added get another ideologically extreme individual to their ranks.
I hope I am wrong about Jan, I really do.
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..in my current style incarnation..
(short back/sides..a quiff..the quiff is back..didn’tyaknow..?)
..and of a hair colour i prefer to label as silver..(shiny/healthy/abundant..vegan diet..didn’tyaknow..?..)
..throw a suit on me and i am part of that ‘weird’group in society logie so stereotypes..so unintelligently..
..yet i am a vegan/non-booze-using/don’t like rugby/animal-rights-supporter/pot-smoking ‘weird’..
..the antithisis of what the accuser assumes…
..and that only goes to show how shallow this post is…
..the finger pointing has three fingers pointing back at the accuser..
..logie should withdraw and apologise..
..i understand her use of old white men in suits as metaphor..
..but she needs to try/think harder..
..c-
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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I wear a suit and I have grey hair.
I love my suit (ties too – I have more than 200 of those) and I’d love to have more hair, be it grey or silver.
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WOW,
Maybe Jan is right, If Philu, Greenfly and I belong to the club it must be wierd for while we all three may physically look the same (older, white and suit wearing), more different in political leanings and asperations we could not be.
That is the trouble with stereotyping, you never get to know the real person.
Just imagine how Russel Norman feels when he wears a suit around Jan, stereotyped??
I think though, that Jan is childishly playing to an audience made up from her female gendered supporters.
“Look girls I’m in the big league and I will show these old, white suit wearing blokes how we do the numbers and culture that will enable us to infuse some colour and create a voice and space for difference within this weird club.”
I dont think her posting was really aimed at the “old white suitwearing males” but at her supporters.
And while it may strike a cord with Toad it exposes her child like sterotyping predjudices.
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Just because she is pro-women, it does not mean that she is anti-men. There is no need for men to feel threatened by a woman disliking the fact that in four hours of speeches in Parliament, Meteria was the only woman who spoke. As a man I too thought it concerning.
If NZ’s Corporate meeting places are dominated by older white men in business suits, that too is a concern.
Great decision making comes from diversity. If New Zealand is to prosper, in our parliament and business spaces we need people of all sorts creeds, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation etc etc. In order for that to happen parliament and our business spaces need to be inclusive places which are not dominated by any one group.
And photonz1, you may wish to get a refund on any fees paid in your education. When Jan used the word “boring” she was referring to a plane where everyone was dressed in suits. Some of these people may have been women. I am sure there was cultural diversity there. What she found boring was that everyone was dressed in suits. Also what she has desciribed as “weird” is the boys club that she is entering. That simply means that she is finding parts of the culture of parliament etc to be weird to her. Neither the her use of “boring” or “weird” implies “gender role stereotyping”.
Maybe what Jan does need to learn is that when discussing issues relating to the Women’s portfolio on this blog she cannot assume that all of the readers will be able to cope with even the slightest complexity or subtlety in her writing.
Hopefully she doesn’t give a toss.
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Jan spends an entire post talking about “sexist comments”, “boring geometrical wrapping paper of black, blue and white suits” and her (superior?) “culture” before going on about “gender role stereotyping and the danger of binaries”
Jan’s hypocrisy is fully on display!
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Mark,
I too found the post enlightening and non threatening.
Enlightening because the shallow spectre of stereotyping is shown by a new Green member of parliament.
I was hoping the Green party had grown up out of that stage.
As I said before the comment was ego driven to appeal to her supporters. It does the credability of the Greens (so carefully managed by the co-leaders and senior members of the party) no good.
No doubt Jan will be the first to complain if the “old, white, suit wearing, wierd club” members starts stereotyping benficiaries (as an example only philu !!) as bludgers. Or Maori as lazy.
When she does no doubt this posting will be highlighted!
That is why it was such a childish and politically immature posting.
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mark..plse enlighten us to the ‘enlightenment’ to be found therein…?
..and as for that brawling/combative atmosphere in parliament…
..i am tiring of the greens sitting politely to one side…
..these are brawling/combative times..
..and i wd rather some mongrel in/on my greens…
..and mark..you are as guilty as logie of simplistic-stereotyping..
..why on earth would i feel ..or anyone else..’threatened’ by a piece only worthy of the derision being heaped upon it..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Incidentally, inequality happens to be a subject I do read a lot about, and the majority of the actually scientific studies I’ve seen suggest that it does have negative affects on entire societies. The Spirit Level may well have errors in it – I’ll decide that as I continue reading and look into their methods more – but the general principle is one that has a lot of evidence behind it and I will need to see as much good evidence for the position that the opposite is true before I change my mind. If you can provide that, please do, I’d love to read it.
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I read this with interest.. its always good to see not only gender equality, but racial numbers & philosophical ideas in a balance too.
I guess the Greens are now ‘on-balance’ 8-6
I always like the song by James Brown “this is a man’s world.. but it would be nothing without a woman or girl !”
Kia-ora
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I think some of the new MP’s who post here are going to realise that this site attracts as many critics (people who vote for other parties) of the Green Party as it does supporters, and that many members do not engage in debate here because it is not as a consequence a positive place to discuss the issues.
This is more true of the Green Party member who seeks a more constructive and co-operative approach.
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SPC,
Better for the new members to find out the realities of life here and under scrutiny from Green party voters then have Winstom Peters pull her up in the house for stereotyping.
Or don’t Green party non members but Green party voters count?
Green party members are “more true” than Green party voters. Nice to know!!
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As for why Green Party members, who generally prefer a constructive and co-operative approach, do not join in the debates – it’s likely because of the rhetoric employed.
Such as people twisting what is said. You are not so thick as to fail to understand my point, yet you still seek to misrepresent it for purposes of mischief making.
Constantly dealing with this rubbish is tiresome and for those who get involved in party politics for the sake of progressive change, I can see why they see it as beneath them.
As a Green Party voter (but not member) I don’t feel so tainted engaging in debate with critics.
Frankly I find it hard to believe that any Green Party voter would try and infer some slight of Green Parrty voters by members in my comments. As for taking my comment, about what is more true of party members than voters, as a comment about party members being more true than party voters – that’s the sort of cheap distortion used in debate here that deters people from doing any more than reading the posts by MP’s.
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“..and that many members do not engage in debate here because it is not as a consequence a positive place to discuss the issues…”
so where do you do it..?..that ‘debate’..?
on that internal green party thing that is generally ignored by all…
(images of greens cowering in bushes…hiding from ‘debate’..)
..but really..there is no ‘debate’..eh..?
(and..)
“..This is more true of the Green Party member who seeks a more constructive and co-operative approach…”
i would like to nominate that purler/howler for ‘smug/self-satisfied/self-congratulatory/self-delusionary/pretentious-twaddle-comment-of-the-month-award’..
how could it not be…?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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phil, party members would do their co-operative work with each other the same way members of other parties do. Not on-line for public viewing.
And did you not read, that I am not a party member?
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SPC,
Care to inform me!
Or you just stereotyping!!
Is that a royal “we”?
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I think much of the response to this stems from the refusal to allow any comment that refers to a collective, rather than an individual. Whsen Jan refers to parliament as ‘weird’ and a mass of people dressed tha same as ‘boring’ many immediately accuse her of attacking or stereotyping the individuals involved. It’s not so much a lack of undestanding as a tactic to make sensible political debate impossible.
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Sam,
Wrong, it is when the collective is labelled stereotypically when it is wrong.
Just as it is wrong to label benficieries as bludgers or Maori as violent, so is it wrong to label old, white, suit wearers as a “wierd club”.
But nobody want to discuss that argument, you and SPC pontificate about not being able to make a sensible debate.
Well lets debate, I say it is wrong to label a collective by stereotype, you say?
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“…there is a subconscious message of not fitting, of not being the norm and a pressure to take on the behaviours of the dominant group…”
if you want all that..with bells on..there..ms. logie…
..you should try being a vegan at a green party bbq…
..eh..?
..in fact..try being a vegan anywhere…
..if there weren’t that certainty of doing the right thing..
..that marginalising could become quite tiresome…
..oppressive even…
..but there is that certainty…
..so that prejudice is accepted as a manifestation of ignorance…
..and as no doubt you chew on the charred limbs of little animals..
..to me..you are the oppressor..
..the one who has to learn…
..it is so much a matter of perspective..
..isn’t it all…?
..and you ‘looked up to find us surrounded by older white men in suits.’
..i constantly look up to see green mp’s eating the charred limbs of slave-animals…
..actually causing far more harm than that from wearing suits..
..as i say..it’s all perspective/nuance…
..the antithesis of stereotyping..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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It’s a little bizarre that a comment about the relative lack of representation of women in parliament is used to launch an attack on the woman MP who notes it.
Trying to target use of the term suit to justify an accusation of discriminatory stereotyping simply overlooks the fact that male MP’s have to wear suits (or akin to) and this is the attire of those who fly business class as professionals. It is a fact that the suit is associated with (class) status.
It’s no surprise that those advocating right wing economic policy are the ones objecting (with one exception).
I cannot wait to see gerrit object the next time photonz generalises about beneficiaries … .
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SPC,
So the reference to “old and white” is not relevant in your argument?
Yet more stereotyping.
Rightwing green economic theories does not equal no right to comment.
I leave it up to the leftwing red economic factions to correct photonz IF he stereotypes benificiaries.
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I reckon though, that if I (be-suited and neck-tied) was with Jan in the House, or in the Koru Lounge, I’d see the same thing she did and make the same observation. In some instances, I’d be wrong (some ‘suits’ are young and tanned), but in general terms, Parliament does look like a boys’ club.
Otoh – I’ve seen Russel, Kevin and David standing black-suited side by side on stage, and they looked like Mafia – oarsome!
And isn’t Tau Henare the epitome of what Jan alludes to! What a dick.
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I admit to being rather annoyed when all us short fat middle aged white fella’s are assumed to have particular views, voting patterns and prejudices.
That is just as unfair as stereotyping Maori, conservatives, farmers, women or (pick your own group). .
Especially when it comes from people who are yet to contribute anything to society, while we have been fighting the forces of meanness and greed for decades.
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If one is speaking to the term established and priviliged one could well define them as older white males in suits – and notice where they gather, the koru lounge, business circles and parliament.
It seems the right is playing the feminist backlash card against women who make a left wing crtique of the society order for the 1%.
There is no discriminatory stereotyping involved – that’s just so much white noise black rain deflection.
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Some contributors here seem to have forgotten (or not noticed) the title of this thread, which starts “first impressions”. Jan’s comments include phreses like “I feel like” and “it seems to me”, all of which are recognitions that Jan does not know the individuals yet, either in Parliament or the Koru lounge. Therefore accusations of stereotyping are premature.
However what is wrong with rugby analogies? Both sexes can play rugby – particularly touch rugby – and you don’t have to play it to understand many of the analogies, such as relating to team work and dropping the ball. We have just held the Rugby World Cup here and won it, so it has certainly been in the news this year.
Trevor.
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Jan I wish you the best of luck.I must agree like yourself that it’s still a man’s world in politics.It takes a lot of courage to get to the top Like Julia Gillard the Australian prime minister but she sure cops a beating from the press which seems to be male dominated in my view.
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“..that’s just so much white noise black rain deflection…”
thock..thock..thock…
..is that the black-helicopters i hear approaching…?
..an i wd like to hail my fellow rightwinger…
..that green insect…
..and thank him for his help in this task we just performed at the behest of our rightwing overlords..
..(has yr chq arrived yet..?..)
whatareyadoing dude..?
..i’m just ‘white noise black rain’ deflecting…
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Reminds me of starting my Career in ja Music Biz. In the early seventies, men in suits everywhere used to complain about our long hair and tshirt/jeans wardrobe. Unacceptable to the conformist fish heads in Capital Enterprises in those days.
Numerous stories…
I’m with you Jan – Is Politics a polemic of hi-jackings and mis-understandings?
The pointy end that sticks up is the front of the Horse – sit facing that way if you want…
A certain Hotel wouldn’t let Joe Cocker stay there, til I mentioned he could buy their flash pakeha joint and sack ‘em all – lots of experience with Discrimination then….
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“Just as it is wrong to label benficieries as bludgers or Maori as violent, so is it wrong to label old, white, suit wearers as a “wierd club”.”
Quite true, it’s just that nobody did that.
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um..!
“..within this weird club…”…?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Anyone who believes that men are the equal of women has never watched a man try to wrap a Christmas present.
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Speak for yourself – I do a great wrap – all shiny glittery and with ribbons. Admittedly, bottles of wine are always a challenge.
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Some consistency would help. Some are upset that the media refer to Maori child abuse on the grounds this implies that all Maori are child abusers and ignores the fact that the vast majority are not.
However, those same people seem to have no problem with their District Plan that will contain a whole chapter or section headed “The Maori World View” which will assume that there is a single Maori world view reflecting the Animist beliefs of the great Pacific Religion.
When I showed this chapter in our own local District Plan to two of my Maori neighbours (one Ratana and the other Mormon) they were furious declaring “I don’t believe all that stuff” and “I am an individual and my beliefs are my own affair” and similar. I suspect people would be surprised if their District Plan said something like “The Irish world view is the catholic religion and hence they believe in the Virgin Birth”.
Often when I was about to go and give evidence on such matters at a Council hearing some well meaning Pakeha would say “You cannot say that! Two of the Councillors are Maori.” But when I began to outline my argument the Maori Councillors broke into smiles and encouraged me and it was clear they had felt unable to make these arguments when responding to staff drafts. Afterwards a few explained that these views had little to do with the Maori in the District but were seized on a means of granting extra power to the decision makers – almost always Pakeha. AFter all how does the ordinary citizen (of whatever race or ethnic group) challenge religious claims about the impact of something on the Mauri (the live force) of the water, soil or air – and so on.
Of course Maori like everyone else should be allowed to believe whatever they like and act accordingly on their own property and within their own groups – but none of us should be allowed to impose those beliefs on others unless there is a deliberate intention to devalue a physical resource – the building of the pork chop factory next to the synagogue syndrome.
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Jan, a more healthy outlook would be to reflect that you stand out because you are different and this gives you an edge. You should feel comfortable that everyone else around you seems so bland.
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Great post Jan.. and no, noticing that most of the room is white men is suits doesn’t mean you’re denying they’re individuals.
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