140 thoughts on “General debate, November 29, 2011

  1. Corporate Media

    Unfortunately factual reporting has been declining worldwide over the last few years… and especially in New Zealand. The continued underreporting of many important issues just one indicator that New Zealand’s mainstream media and their watchdogs are biased.

  2. http://whoar.co.nz/2011/the-19-tribes-of-vegan-ed-and-you-thoughtassumed-becoming-vegan-would-simplify-the-life-hah/

    “..Vegan culture is certainly a fascinating collection of people and perspectives.

    Rather than being monolithic, vegans tend to break down into smaller tribes, bands and factions.

    Here’s our take on some of the more notable tribes out there as we see it.

    Obviously, this little vegan cultural anthropology 101 list isn’t definitive or exhaustive –

    – and there is plenty of overlap where almost everyone identifies with multiple groups.

    We’d be curious to hear what tribes you think you click with on some level.

    Go thumbs up if you feel part of any of the particular ones below.

    List will reorder when there are sufficient votes.

    Be sure to let us know where you think we are way off.

    By the way, we added a “Hollywood Vegan” category at the end as well to the list –

    – though they aren’t counted as an actual vegan tribe…”

    (ed:..see what i mean..?..)

    (cont…)

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

  3. “..When I was 88 years old, I gave up meat entirely and switched to a plant-foods diet following a slight stroke.

    During the following months, I not only lost 50 pounds but also gained strength in my legs – and picked up stamina.

    Now, at 93, I’m on the same plant-based diet – and I still don’t eat any meat or dairy products.

    I either swim, walk or paddle a canoe daily –

    – and I feel the best I’ve felt since my heart problems began.–

    – Dr. Benjamin Spock

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

  4. “..9. One Struggle Vegans

    (CarpeVegan Ranking: 9)

    Summary: AKA: comrade vegans.

    Those that believe a vegan pro-animal philosophy directly and essentially translates into a left wing, progressive or socialist political perspective.

    Chief Characteristic: An uncomfortableness toward those who don’t share their political views – even if they are a vegan.

    Michael Moore is loved by a few of these folks even though he’s obviously not vegan – an anti-animal jerk –

    – and gets a pass because somehow one’s political views trump their views toward animals in some people’s eyes.

    OK, that’s not fair.

    Just needed to vent against Moore…”

    (heh..!..)

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

  5. “..The global capitalist world system is inherently destructive to people, animals, and nature.

    It is unsustainable – and the bills for three centuries of industrialization are now due.

    It cannot be humanized, civilized, or made green-friendly –

    – but rather must be transcended through revolution at all levels –

    – economic, political, legal, cultural, technological, moral, and conceptual…”

    (ain’t that the truth..?..)

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

  6. John Key advocates for the abolishment of democracy:

    New Zealand’s re-elected prime minister, John Key, is urging the Maori party, an opponent of his asset sales plan, to support the new government to bolster his control of parliament.

    “What can they achieve in opposition?” Key told TV3. “They can struggle for a bit of airtime and a few gains for their people, or they can sit around the table and continue to get the genuine gains they got last time.”

    Key thinks there’s no reason to have an opposition, so let’s just get rid of the government all together.

    The technology is available to vote on a policy by policy basis… we would reduce costs by not having so many fat cats sucking our taxes dry. Direct representation would ensure that the public did what was best for the vast majority and would halt corporate agendas that are not in the public interest.

  7. From JK as quoted by Jackal: “They can struggle for a bit of airtime and a few gains for their people, or they can sit around the table and continue to get the genuine gains they got last time.”

    You’d think the leader of a government should be stating that Maori people stand to gain at least as well as they would otherwise with or without the Maori Party in government. Or do citizens only matter when their favoured party happens to be running things?

    It’s one thing for a government to enact the policies for which it was elected and argue that they’re for the greater good (even if some people think otherwise), but to me this sounds more like an open admission from the PM that the government has no or at least lesser obligations to those who didn’t vote for it. It’s very sad when a government’s attitude reaches such a point. People have criticised National for only being there to help out its mates, and this kind of crap just encourages it.

  8. (watch this..(it isn’t gruesome at all..)..

    ..and then go and look at yr bathroom/cosmetic-products..

    ..and then wonder what has been done in their/your name..eh..?..)

    http://whoar.co.nz/2011/lab-beagles-released-in-spain-40-dogs-see-sunlight-for-first-time-video/

    “…According to the Beagle Freedom Project’s website, beagles are the breed of choice for lab testing of pharmaceutical, household, and cosmetic products –

    – due to their “friendly, docile, trusting, forgiving, people-pleasing personalities,”-

    – their ability to adapt to life in a cage – and the fact that they are relatively inexpensive to feed…”

    (cont…)

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

  9. Maori Party have made it clear that while they are against partial asset sales, Iwi they represent are very keen to buy the assets.

    And this – in your mind – is the abolishment of democracy.

    Time to take a deep breath, and ditch the hysteria.

  10. Chevron, Pay For The Damage You Caused to Brazil’s Beaches!

    Big oil continues to betray its fundamental disregard for marine wildlife and the many holiday industries that rely on clean beaches and pristine oceanic shelves. Most recently, Chevron released more than 110,000 gallons of oil near Brazilian beaches.

    And Brazil’s environmental secretary says the accident was completely avoidable. It seems Chevron “underestimated the pressure” of an underwater reservoir.

    Only an accident of the current carried the oil slick away from Brazil’s famed vacation getaways instead of right smack into them. Many Brazilians are outraged.

    Brazilian State Environmental Secretary Carlos Minc is saying Chevron should pay $28 million in fines, according to a recent article in the Houston Chronicle. Minc charges Chevron with failing to take appropriate action for nearly ten days after the leak was spotted.

    Tell Chevron to pay up and to stop irresponsible drilling in Brazil and everywhere else!

  11. Jackal says “Tell Chevron to pay up and to stop irresponsible drilling in Brazil and everywhere !”

    And please put our petrol prices up to pay for it!!!

  12. Editorial: Why did so many Kiwis fail to vote?

    Political scientist Dr Ray Miller says lopsided pre-election polls made it appear National was going to enjoy an easy victory.

    They thought it was a foregone conclusion, so Labour voters and some National supporters didn’t bother going to the polls.

    Dr Miller says there is growing concern around the world about an ongoing decline in voting, especially by young adults.

  13. Apart from not so many enrolled voters turning up there is also the number who did not even bother to enrol.

    I see four main reasons for the low turnout.

    Those unwilling to vote for National because of the asset sales.
    Labour voters who would not turn out if their party had no chance.
    Labour voters put off by criticism of their party – not having the numbers sorted/the more debt attack not seen off well enough, Labour would be giving help to those people (beneficiaries), it would mean voting against the PM (Polynesians and Asians are even more likely to support the status quo).
    Otherwise swing voters not yet ready to vote down their 2008 choice of National, but not willing to stick with it as doubts had emerged.

  14. NZ overhauls oil exploration permits

    Greywolf Resources, the mysterious Australian mining company, appears to have contributed to an overhaul of the way New Zealand allows companies to apply for oil exploration permits, with key changes proposed today.

    Acting Energy and Resources Minister Hekia Parata revealed proposals to offer a set number of exploration permits annually as part of a plan to increase the amount of revenue generated from royalties from oil and gas fields.

    Here’s a novel idea… why don’t they increase the percentage of return to the government? It’s currently only 5% for oil… which clearly isn’t worth the risk.

  15. on a purely commmercial level..that does my head in…

    our environment is wrecked…

    ..we take 100% of the environmental risk..

    ..for a pitiful/pathetic 5% royalty..

    ..who the fuck signed us up to that deal…?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

  16. a video on beagles being released gets 7 down-ticks..?

    what sort of sick fucks hang in this place..?

    ..(surely it can’t be just the messanger…?)

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

  17. btw frog..yr tick-system is a joke..

    ..if you aren’t logged in..you can vote for yrslf..multiple times..

    ..or downtick multiple times..

    ..can i suggest you either fix that flaw..

    ..or can the whole thing..?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

  18. BJ,

    Strange article.

    Agree with

    Robust, balanced growth requires a more equitable distribution of income that favors consumers over investors, with all that implies for public policy, social theory, and, yes, moral philosophy.

    But then the article delves into spend, spend, spend, theory.

    In fact, if we want to create the conditions of robust, balanced growth rather than suffer through serial crises on the order of the Great Depression and the Great Recession, we need to empower consumers, and, by the same token, embrace consumer culture. More consumption is the key to balanced growth. That’s right: We need to save less and spend more.

    No mention is made though of the disconnect in that the income distribution needs to happen AT THE SAME time as the spending.

    Problem with the article and ALL other similar articles is that it is never discussed on HOW to achieve that goal.

    Then delivers the farcical statement

    Higher profits almost never lead to more investment, more jobs, and more growth. In fact, there’s no demonstrable link between private investment and economic growth, so cutting taxes on corporate profits is pointless at best, and destructive at worst.

    Where do the profit go? — Shareholders! — What do shareholders do? — Re-invest!

    A possible means of redistribution of wealth is getting the populace (workers — purchasers) to become shareholders.

    Could that be the governments aim by selling 49% shares in SOE’s?

    If IWI, KiwiSaver and ACC fund managers invest in NZL industry through partial sell off of SOE (PLUS invest in existing NZL business) it actually achieves wealth distribution and shareholders returns to be spend in an expanded economy.

    The state should encourage this by buying locally where ever possible and feasable.

  19. “..A possible means of redistribution of wealth is getting the populace (workers — purchasers) to become shareholders.

    Could that be the governments aim by selling 49% shares in SOE’s?..”

    why yes gerritt…

    they’ll be queuing in factory-lunchrooms up and down the land..

    ..or..could it be the/’our’ 1% carving up our commonly-owned/paid-for asset for themselves..?

    ..as they have done before..?

    ..mmm..!..’workers’..?..or 1%..?

    who would key/nact be more likely to be working for..?

    ..d’yareckon..?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

  20. go to the tv3 website..

    and look at the interview with key..

    ..and while watching it ask yrslf the question..

    ..’is he really ‘a pitiless blank-eyed hell-wraith’..?

    ..let yr eyes be the judge..

    ..and be in no doubt..

    ..they are going to go gangbusters..

    ..that shuffling sound you can hear is the open-cast miners and the oil-companies lining up outside keys’ door..

    ..the noise is because they can’t contain themselves/can’t stand still..

    ..they are so happy at what key/nact will give them over the next three years..

    ..so..what are we going to do to stop them..?

    .as the election-option clearly hasn’t worked..

    ..(the green party so eager to sign up to support these bastards being particularly grim/depressing to watch..)

    ..so..i predict that over the next three years there will be more demos/direct-action than you can poke a stick at…

    ..and certainly much more than we have seen for a very long time..

    ..stretching back to that springbok-tour..

    ..what other choice/options are there..?

    ..for some strange reason too many new zealanders were the turkeys voting for environmental/social-thanksgiving..

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

  21. phil says “….carving up our commonly-owned/paid-for asset for themselves..?”

    And you’ve contibuted how much phil?

  22. phil u

    ..that shuffling sound you can hear is the open-cast miners and the oil-companies lining up outside keys’ door..

    ..the noise is because they can’t contain themselves/can’t stand still..

    Sounds more like snakes slithering around the place from here. I found it amusing that Key said we’re “scared” of asset sales in his online journal yesterday. That’s not the case at all… they simply don’t make good economical sense… especially if you cannot afford to invest in them like the vast majority of New Zealander’s.

    If less than half of National supporters want asset sales and they only gained 35% of the eligible votes… what percentage does that work out as for the population? Being that they plan to sell those assets that currently belong to our children’s future, shouldn’t we calculate it from the entire current population? Works out to be less than 10% support… but that is probably a bit of an overestimation.

  23. so..the rich are going to get richer..

    ..(our 1% had a phenomenal increase in wealth over these last three years..and that is only set to continue..

    ..as they circle our state assets…)

    ..and the poor will get poorer..

    ..key has promised no relief for the poorest..in fact a pogrom on them will be launched..

    ..so they will continue to grow apace..

    ..(as an aside…shall we start a book on when that underclass will explode..?..

    ..do these parasitic fucken vultures just think they can keep jumping up and down on the poorest/disposessed..

    ..and not eventually have them turn on them..

    ..that’ds when you will need security mr key..

    ..all the richest will..

    ..our destination is where port morseby in new guinea is now..

    ..the middle-class/rich live behind walls with broken glass/barbed-wire on top..with armed security..

    ..while outside those walls it is a jungle..

    ..with gangs of the disposessed standing around/roaming the streets..)

    ..our environment will continue the accelerated pace downhill…

    ..those farmers who love the country so much will see to that..

    ..irrigation-plans..open-cast mining..parata handing out drilling permits like confetti…

    ..it’s actually really fucken ugly..

    ..and i am calling on the green party to be no party to/of this laying-waste government..

    ..and to join the others on the barricades…

    ..occupy aotea is like an appetiser before a banquet..

    ..the choice here/now for the green party is clear..

    ..they can become part of the battle/solutions..

    (and yes..!..green party co-leaders/mp’s linked armed and marching with the progressives/resisters..is weilding yr powers in a good/positive way..

    ..standing to one side with yr mouths taped shut by a ‘memorandum of understanding’..

    ..would/will make you part of the problem..

    ..how could it not..?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

  24. Now Fran O’Sullivan claims New Zealander’s opposed to asset sales have anxiety issues:

    By front-footing National’s plan – even while confidence and supply negotiations continue with the Maori Party co-leaders who say they are against “asset sales” – Key is sending a welcome signal that despite many New Zealanders’ anxiety he is prepared to take a leadership role on this score.

    What a load of rubbish! People who oppose asset sales aren’t scared and they don’t have anxiety issues. The vast majority of New Zealander’s oppose asset sales because it does not make good economic sense for New Zealand.

  25. phil u

    ..(as an aside…shall we start a book on when that underclass will explode..?..

    ..do these parasitic fucken vultures just think they can keep jumping up and down on the poorest/disposessed..

    ..and not eventually have them turn on them..

    ..that’ds when you will need security mr key..

    From guys screaming abuse at Key and Bennett in parliament and trying to jump to their death to guys burning cars in the main streets of Wellington… this is just the tip of the iceberg that National’s war on the poor will eventuate into. Especially now that one of their main propaganda tools is going to have far less influence. I’m glad I’m not in their shoes.

  26. plus of course..in yr own self-interest..

    ..being part of the galvanising of opposition will be good for yr vote in 2014..

    ..on the other hand..

    ..do you really think being seen cuddling up with key/nact during what is coming up..

    ..will/would have the same positve effect on yr 2014 vote…?

    ..i don’t..

    ..and if you don’t seize part of that opposition/resistance-mantle..

    ..hone will have it all to himself..

    ..and that is where a large part of yr ‘green’-voters will migrate..

    ..(don’t say i didn’t warn you…eh.?..)

    ..and i urge all those in the green party who have any influence to urge/fight/argue for that non-engagement..

    ..it will be the best for the longterm growth/influence of the green party..

    ..that direction yr rightwing infiltrators are urging you to travel in is the wrong way..

    ..and standing on the airplane steps..waving the memorandum in the air..

    ..and proclaiming ‘insulation in our time’…

    ..won’t be anywhere near enough..eh..?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

  27. Dear Frog/Administrators of this blog…Re: tick system..totally agree with Phil and Mark’s comments in regard to this. I’d like to hear the theory of how you think this ridiculous, meaningless, juvenile popularity contest behoves any credibility to any argument.

    Gerrit’s 6.16am comment surely confirms what we all know.

    Photonz…to my mind you’re a nasty prick, who seems to have nothing better to do than hang out here all day…how does that contribute to our assets?

  28. Suz, I have come to the realization that the best thing to do with photonz1 is to ignore him. DFTT.

    frog, the tick system isn’t particularly relevant and simply wastes peoples time.

  29. I know Gerrit… the guy hasn’t worked out the sustainable ways of making an economy work. The take away for me was the observation that handing more wealth and power to the companies and people at the top doesn’t make the economy work better or grow faster, so it fails at both what it tries to do and at the possible thing that it fails to try.

  30. Suz says “Photonz…to my mind you’re a nasty prick, who seems to have nothing better to do than hang out here all day…how does that contribute to our assets?”

    It probably a much better contribution than your personal abuse.

    This can be a site for
    – discussion of opposing ideas, or
    – meaningless cheerleading from one side, or
    – personally abusing people who dissagree with you.

    I’m for the first one. You post suggests you’re for the last.

  31. Coalmine methane alert issued

    Gas levels at the Huntly East coalmine were at explosive levels earlier this month.

    Solid Energy says monitoring equipment detected methane levels at 1.25% on 11 November and rose to 5% in the following five days.

    I didn’t expect the disaster’s and near misses under National to continue so soon after the election… but I guess their deregulation is going to continue wreak havoc.

  32. ” sick fucks ” “dick!” “nasty prick” ” “parasitic fucken vultures”

    The question of whether frogblog is a site for juvenille personal abuse or intelligent debate seems to have been answered.

    [frog: As phil u suggests below, photonz1, it cuts both ways. This isn't Kiwiblog, and I'm not going to let it become like that. So please cut out the personal abuse and unsubstantiated assertions and try to have a proper debate involving the evidence. That goes for Suz and Jackal too.]

  33. “..- meaningless cheerleading from one side..”

    check..!

    “- personally abusing people who dissagree with you…”

    check..!..(yr 9.43 am the most recent..)

    so..yep..!..that’s you..in one…

    ..eh..?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

  34. While taking his family on tropical holiday’s in the sun, or flying around the country in a chopper, the right wing troll AKA photonz1 develops his thesis on how the public might be hoodwinked into slashing and burning the welfare state, drilling in conservation land and selling off New Zealand to the highest bidder.

    Not content with just promoting his ideas on rightwing blogs he has to provocate the left by rubbing our noses in his disinformation campaign and the right wings obvious lies. The sycophant rightwing troll is considered to be a (add your word here) by left wing commentators on frogblog while Kiwibog has banned all opposing voices. Their melee of rightwing claptrap twists in ever increasing nasty circles designed to turn New Zealander against New Zealander.

    Unable to provide an opinion based in reality, photonz1 continues to butt into other peoples conversations and provide what seems to be an unlimited and unending amount of factually incorrect information and assertions that is the basis of the right wing insanity that is turning New Zealand into another third world country.

    Their failed rightwing ideology has turned Aotearoa from one of the best countries in the world to one of the worst, where only wealth matters, only the rich are allowed children, the poor are spat on, the rich lord their wealth over the downtrodden, the environment is to be raped and plundered, corporate welfare rules the day and meaningless rhetoric and spin is forced on us by (insert your word here) little trolls like photonz1.

    Clearly you lost your soul a long time ago photonz1. Why don’t you piss off to where all the other lost souls hang out?

  35. frog says “This isn’t Kiwiblog, and I’m not going to let it become like that.”

    Yeah right – I noticed how hard you clamped down on this mornings comments –
    ” sick fucks ” “dick!” “nasty prick” ” “parasitic fucken vultures”

    frog – It’s blatantly clear you let anything go as long as it’s in one direction.

    [frog: It was a friendly warning to all concerned. That I happened to make it in your comment doesn't mean I was singling you out. I don't think those references are sufficiently bad to censor them on a one-off basis - I normally do that only if comments are defamatory or grossly offensive. But persistent abusive language by any commenter will eventually result in him or her being placed into automatic moderation.]

  36. Sea Shepherd prepares to tackle Japanese whalers

    Environmental activist group Sea Shepherd is preparing for a three month voyage to the Southern Ocean and is expecting one of its most intense campaigns yet against Japanese whalers.

    [...]

    Sea Shepherd’s Paul Watson doesn’t have much time for diplomatic or legal channels to end whaling and says the Australian government should take stronger action.

    “Diplomacy has failed. This court case will go on and on and on and maybe it might get a resolution in 2016 or something in the meantime whales are dying,” he told SBS.

    “Australia and New Zealand should be down defending these whales in this sanctuary and by ordering the Japanese whaling fleet out of the area. All Australia has to do is show up with a war ship and say ‘out of here’ there’s not going to be any argument, Japan will leave.”

    It’s a pity the National government wont intervene in the wholesale slaughter of our endangered whales.

  37. y’see photonz..there is vigorous language..

    ..as examples i wd cite ‘parasitic fucken vultures’…

    ..and ‘pitiless blank-eyed hell-wraith’ as examples of the genre..

    ..then there is what you and d4j specialise in..

    ..in this case mindless repetition of yr assertion that being an active/current member of the underclass..

    ..that this somehow should automatically mean my rights to speak is silenced/curtailed..

    ..which..after fifty or so repetitions..

    ..must grate on that boredom-nerve..eh..?

    ..even for you..

    (and which really..nobody..me included..can be buggered even waving you away over..)

    ..i have found the nearest you have ever come to being in the slightest bit witty/amusing…

    ..was yr observation that spock was a vulcan..not a vegan..

    ..(it even raised the beginnings of a wan smile…i did say ‘beginnings’..)

    ..and that..sadly..is the best you have ever been..eh..?

    ..so..in conclusion..were you to present a funny/colourful lunge at the many flaws/holes i expose..

    ..i wd be the first to stand and applaud..

    ..but sadly..

    ..that appears to be beyond yr ken..

    ..eh..?

    ..try harder..!

    ..is what i wd urge..

    ..eh..?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

  38. frog

    But persistent abusive language by any commenter will eventually result in him or her being placed into automatic moderation.

    The problem here is that photonz1 continues to press peoples buttons eliciting his desired response of people not feeling good about commenting on frogblog. You would get a lot more comments if people felt that their opinion wasn’t going to be rubbished by the in house troll and his campaign of disinformation.

    photonz1

    The rest of your post is abusive rantings so are best ignored (and are the reason you get yourself banned from other sites)

    I was banned from Kiwibog because Farrar chose to not follow his sites policy. I don’t recall ever being banned from any other site on the entire internet. The reason you have chosen to ignore my comment is because you know it’s all true. Just like the rest of you RWNJ… you can’t handle the truth.

  39. Jackal/Todd says “I was banned from Kiwibog because Farrar chose to not follow his sites policy.”

    You rant was so hysterical that people were even posting links to it here.

    Here’s a taste of it, under your previous name Todd – unedited –

    “Todd (111) Says:

    February 11th, 2011 at 6:55 pm
    Brains in Dorkland pretty much taste the same as everywhere else. Reminds me of some real juicy big brains I once ate. Yum! Me wants some more right now. C’mon… give it to me real good.
    Todd (111) Says:

    February 11th, 2011 at 6:58 pm
    I see red as well when I eat brains… messy but good! Crunch! Ouch! Metal plate in his brain not good. Me want clean big juicy brains, not deformed small putrid brains that have had surgery. They is yucky!
    Todd (111) Says:

    February 11th, 2011 at 7:00 pm
    Never touch a lepers brains, they taste like lame donkey’s old brain, all rotten and stinky! Not good and fresh like me want.
    Todd (111) Says:

    February 11th, 2011 at 7:01 pm
    No more brains? Give thems to me. Please!
    ISeeRed (209) Says:

    February 11th, 2011 at 7:01 pm
    Todd, are you philu’s boy? My sincerest heartfelt condolences. Second-hand marijuana smoke is a bitch.
    Todd (111) Says:

    February 11th, 2011 at 7:06 pm
    So is a bleeding brain… Red gunk all over the place. Doesn’t stop me eating them though. Tasty!
    Todd (111) Says:

    February 11th, 2011 at 7:06 pm
    Crunchy munch much?
    Todd (111) Says:

    February 11th, 2011 at 7:08 pm
    No!
    Todd (111) Says:

    February 11th, 2011 at 7:13 pm
    When my baby’s walking down the street
    I see red, I see red, I see red.
    How could someone wicked walk around for free
    I see red, I see red, I see red.

    Crunchy munch not so good after all! Got soar stomach. Me going to vomit, oops! Sorry for getting that all over you guys. Probably used to it though huh! Time for more brains yet?
    Todd (111) Says:

    February 11th, 2011 at 7:17 pm
    Nothing left in stomach… Just blue projectile vomit everywhere. Me needs more brains co’s so hungry now. Nothing to eat around here. Lame donkey got no brains. Monkey’s all hiding and eating nits. Me so sad!”

    There’s plenty more ranting 3/4 down the page at
    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2011/02/general_debate_11_february_2011.html

  40. photonz1

    Jackal says “Their failed rightwing ideology has turned Aotearoa from one of the best countries in the world to one of the worst..”

    Or one of the best –
    “Survey: NZ quality of life amongst the best”

    The survey did not account for small townsips and rural communities… which is where most of the poverty is. Next you’ll be giving me tourism brochures and telling me that I will win Lotto if only I brought a ticket.

    You rant was so hysterical that people were even posting links to it here.

    It was rather amusing. How is your repost relevant though photonz1?

  41. I see National are trying to get assets sold ASAP. Before public opposition has a chance to build.

    How do we get a petition for a referendum against the sales going?

    It will have to be non-partisan to involve the National voters who know that selling your tools, to buy a days groceries, is insane.

    Especially as in a couple of years national will claim TINA to sell the remainder after their policies have ramped up our debt.

  42. All good Frog…really impressed with your heartfelt protection of Photonz…Un.. fucking…believable…tells me all I need to know. Hope he gives you his vote next time, illiterate as he is.

  43. Kerry – it’s ironic that you seem to be against more debt, at the same time as advocating $5-$7 MORE debt instead of asset sales.

    Or are you against building new schools, hospitals and other infrastructure?

    Because if we don’t have asset sales, there are only two other options –
    1/ Take on $5-$7 billion more debt
    2/ Don’t build new schools, hospitals etc.

  44. Back to fiscal responsibility school time for our 1, 2 and 3.

    1. less dividend revenue after selling 49% of the SOE means more dependence on borrowing than otherwise afterward.

    2. an earthquake levy means less short term debt than with assets sales.

    3. a CGT means less debt over the medium term.

    Now you know your 1, 2 and 3.

    Besides if money is lacking wanted for infrastructure spending – simply spend at a rate that is affordable – delay nice to have roads. The same economic growth can be realised by building new homes and selling them to private buyers (no extra debt involved).

  45. SPC says “1. less dividend revenue after selling 49% of the SOE means more dependence on borrowing than otherwise afterward.”

    Wrong. Dividend return from the assets for the last few years has been $300m.

    If we sell half ($5-$7b) we
    – lose half the dividend ($150m)
    – save interest on $5b @ 6% ($300m), OR
    – save interst on $7b @ 6% ($420m)
    – gain $50m from taxing the private sectors dividend of $150m

    SPC says “2. an earthquake levy means less short term debt than with assets sales.”

    We need $20b for the earthquake. The earthquake levy taxes just $1b per year.

    SPC says “3. a CGT means less debt over the medium term”

    Wrong – because it omits the majority of housing, it will make house prices go up and cause more private debt. And it takes 15-20 yearsw to ramp up, so the govt gets barely anything for years.

    If the Greens want class sizes of just 20 they will need to build 50% more classrooms – was that even costed for the election?

    Neither did I see any assessment of the damage from sucking an additional %7.9 billion dollars from the productive sector year.

  46. You have avoided a real response to the 1, 2 and 3, rather than made one.

    1. you seem confused, we are not paying down debt with the asset sale money we are spending it.

    So there is a decline in government revenue afterwards and that means more dependence on borrowing to meet budget shortfalls.

    2. the diffrence between an earthquake levy raising $5B over 5 years and zero is 5B and over 10 years it is 10B.

    This raises more money than that derived from asset sales without selling the assts.

    3. a CGT results in lower public debt over the long term.

    Your spurious/bullet point theory that a CGT raises house prices is not related to the public debt issue.

  47. If the Greens want class sizes of just 20 they will need to build 50% more classrooms – was that even costed for the election?

    On the premise from a close relative whom home schools all four of her children, the cirriculum is easily achived in four hours per day of concentrated work.

    So we simply double shift the kids. 4 Hours in the morning, 4 hours in the afternoon.

    Teacher have no supervisory duties at lunchtime thus are free to enjoy a quite lunch.

    No extra class rooms, no extra teachers. Simple

    Mind you working parents loosing their school baby sitting service wont like it.

  48. “Their failed rightwing ideology has turned Aotearoa from one of the best countries in the world to one of the worst..”

    In three years??

    I never get over how blinkered people can be.

    Interesting that there appears to be a very low number of participants on frog blog now, seems more like the Jackal and philu freak show.

  49. I’m not right wing and I not a troll.

    But I have to admit, after coming close to being a supporter of the Greens I am now struggling to understand a few things.
    Perhaps I was blinded by the ‘idea’ more than the actual application of it.

  50. cut the bullshit shunda..

    ..(a selection of yr recent little spots of bile over at kiwiblog..?

    ..that should take care of that..’I’m not right wing and I not (sic) a troll..’ whopper..

    eh..?

    ..shall you..?..or shall i..?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

  51. RNZ hands over ‘tea tape’ interview

    The public radio station has just confirmed that a warrant was served this afternoon in relation to an interview it conducted with Ambrose.

    The station has provided a copy of the Checkpoint interview, which was not aired.

    They really are going to a lot of trouble to make sure the public doesn’t hear the tea pot tape huh! I wonder if Key and Banks got caught talking about rigging the election… things would start adding up then.

  52. SPC says “1. you seem confused, we are not paying down debt with the asset sale money we are spending it. ”

    If the govt uses the proceeds to PAY off debt, or to AVOID debt when it builds new infrastructure – the result is identical – less debt.

    And less debt has exactly the oppsite effect of what you are saying. There will be $300m less in interest vs a $100m loss in dividend ($150m loss of dividend, with $50m of that gained back in tax)

    2/ You want to suck $5 billion or $10 billion from people’s pay packets as if this is a totally positive thing, with zero acknowledgement of how much this will damage the economy, peoples savings, spending etc

    3/ If you want a GCT – the Greens plan is the worst one you could have.

    It taxes the growth in the productive sector – business and shares – persuading people not to invest there, but instead to invest in housing, the vast majority of which you can make big gains with zero tax.

    And the amazing thing is, that Greens think this will make house prices go down and get people to invest in the productive sector.

    Unbeleivable.

  53. http://whoar.co.nz/2011/commentwhoar-and-then-along-came-wild-one/

    two nights ago here was like a comedy routine..

    at about 1.00am i was woken by a crying kitten..outside my window..in my yard…

    ..so i went out to look for it..

    ..it heard me coming/calling…

    ..and stopped mewing…

    ..i searched..could not find..

    ..(cursed my ineptitude/inefficiency at not having a torch..using my cellphone as a poor imitation..)

    ..i then went back to bed..and laid down..

    ..the kitten started again..’

    ..and this set the pattern for the night..

    ..up and down..up and down..

    ..punctuated by highlights like a spectacular prat-fall down the back stairs..

    ..me hanging out for dawn..when i cd see..

    (and when it must have fallen asleep..tired from its’ long nights’ work stopping me sleeping..)

    i left the back door open..and it kinda came in..and then ran when it saw me…that was the only time i saw it..

    .i just heard it..

    ..’the boy’ and the neighbours all joined in the search/listening yesterday..

    ..and then late afternoon my neighbor found her/him..huddling in a corner…

    ..he/she is a very small/very beautiful black and white one…very cute/striking..

    ..so..in the house..small dog just ignored it..

    ..big dog came over all mumsy/concerned..

    ..and i had her/him at one stage all purring and rubbing up against my kneck..(very nice..i hafta say..)

    ..but in general he/she is pretty wild..and was hiding in corners most of the time..

    ..so i now have him/her in small dogs’ old carry case..

    ..on the table next to me as i write this..at eye level..

    ..and he/she is pushing up against the cage-door..demanding i scritch the head..

    ..and is in there with a hoody of mine to sleep on..

    ..some toys..

    ..and softened vegan cat-food..

    (from safe-shop where lady told me her cat thrives on just that..)

    ..and he/she is eating it..

    ..which is a major relief..

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

  54. This really is an excellent summation of the reason Labour will likely not contest the next election either:

    The reason is as simple as the labour winner on the west coast said prior to the election “The labour party is made up of self serving unionists & a gaggle of gays” that sums it up neatly for me.
    Self serving is the key wording.

    Interestingly enough the mighty former labour stronghold, nay the birthplace of labour, heard a man tell the truth and gave him the vote & took the seat from the Nats.

    The message was loud and clear, and understood by the ordinary voter, but his message was absolute swahili to the labour caucus.

  55. Gillard pledge offers ‘catch up’ challenge to NZ

    “We also have a big pay equity problem in New Zealand. While the national average gender pay gap is 12 percent, nearly a third of government departments have gender pay gaps above 20 percent and in one, the New Zealand Defence Force, it is nearly 39 percent, says Brenda Pilott.

    “These are shameful statistics given that 59 percent of New Zealand’s public service workers are women.

    “In April, Finance Minister Bill English boasted that New Zealand’s low wages helped it compete with Australia, but this doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

    “A recent report from Goldman Sachs estimates that closing the pay gap between men and women in New Zealand would boost New Zealand’s GDP by 10 percent.

    Wow! 10% boost to our GDP… what is National waiting for? Oh! That’s right… some female MP’s.

  56. D’oh. All I wanted was to post a link on an important topic and now I have my inbox full of insults. I am able to learn and I will only read the actual posts on here from now on.

  57. I feel the thumbs up/down idea would be more constructive if people were allowed to approve (an uptick) or to simply leave opinion aside.

    Many o/s blogs I read/write to, use this system and I feel it more constructive, less personal, and a better quick reference as to the most relevant comments.

    As it is Frog, I find the current system tends to both personalise and confuse issues, a discouragement if you will.

    Happy New Year! (and so it begins…)

    Descriptions about Left/Right posits are, to me, largely irrelevant whilst there is a mad scramble to occupy the ‘middle ground’ going on.

    I hope Labour have learned something about leadership.
    That’s more an observation than a personal slight.

    Goff’s name came up in a kind of Rorschach Test I did on NZ politics a few weeks ago. The first word that came to my mind was ‘slow’ – sorry Sir, but the Votes are in; whilst you may be personally profound and correct – there is a certain emphasis missing for mine…

    A 30% non-participation rate is politically unacceptable.
    It says more than most of the ‘results’.

    Meanwhile we continue to lose our best and brightest to OZ and beyond at a rate that is alarming.

    As a sailor I found it best to act before the water became neck-high.

    NZ is somewhat in the position of one who treads water and hopes – not a good situation at all.

  58. Jackal says “Then you let photonz1 copy and past Kiwibog into frogblog?”

    Jackal / Todd really stuffs up.

    He complains bitterly ABOUT HIS OWN QUOTES.

  59. Sad little Penguins

    The little blue penguins were released on Tuesday 22nd Nov, 2011. Then on the 25th Nov, it was reported that new dangerous goods had been found to be stored onboard Rena that were not on the ships inventory.

    [...]

    Despite Maritime New Zealand saying that the substance posses a low risk, safety data sheet (PDF) for Pure Tapped Bath Material or Cryolite as it is meant to be called for shipping purposes, shows that it’s highly hazardous.

    photonz1… you’re so irrelevant.

  60. Little diversity in New Zealand’s average politician

    Green Party women’s affairs spokeswoman Catherine Delahunty said she was disappointed that the number of women had gone down for the first time since the introduction of MMP.

    “MMP has been essential in order to increase the representation of women in Parliament.

    “There have been more female MPs in the last 15 years than there were since women were able to get into Parliament,” Ms Delahunty said.

    “However, the initial gains have plateaued and political parties need to make a commitment to gender balance.”

    Out of the National Party’s 60 MPs, 15 are female, which Ms Delahunty said showed a lack of commitment to gender representation.

    Labour’s caucus was 35 per cent female, the Greens 54 per cent, NZ First 38 per cent, and the Maori Party 33 per cent.

    I think you’re right on the money there Catherine. It’s very sad to see that National has dragged down the good work done by the Greens in creating more equality within parliament.

    I very much doubt those 15 female National MP’s will have much influence on National’s male dominated ranks. The Natz are clearly an old boys club.

  61. Jackal is worried ” Cryolite as it is meant to be called for shipping purposes, shows that it’s highly hazardous.”

    It’s only dangerous if you eat it.

    Just like your carpet, your light fittings, your taps, your stainless steel sink, or your car.

    So don’t eat it, or your household fittings, or your car, and you’ll be ok.

    No need for hysteria.

  62. i reckon the combination most likely to appeal to new zealanders..

    ..and therefor most likely to do well at the next election..

    .would be shearer as front-man/leader…

    (a man who has seemed unwilling to date to tout his impressive credentials..)

    ..with the two supporting pillars of parker as his deputy…

    ..and cunliffe doing finance…

    ..of those three..i reckon only shearer can beat key…

    ..(a ‘hero’ up against a money-trader..i like it..)

    ..but he can’t do it on his own….(cont..)

    http://whoar.co.nz/2011/commentwhoar-my-ideal-labour-leadership-team/

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

  63. Overnight moves by the Central Banks make it as though we now have one world currency…

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/fed-made-decision-bail-out-europe-monday#comment-1930529

    The new interest rate, of the world, is the overnight interest rate of the Federal Reserve. The Fed just set world monetary policy. We now have the dollar as not only the reserve currencie, but the only currencie. We now have a One World Currencie controlled by the Federal Reserve.

    One Ring to rule them all,
    One Ring to find them,
    One Ring to bring them all,
    And in the darkness bind them.

  64. photonz1

    It’s only dangerous if you eat it.

    It’s also hazardous if you breath it… it is hazardous when consumed by marine animals and fish. Anybody who eats any fish that have been contaminated by swimming through the area affected are also putting their lives in danger. Cryolite does not break down in water… meaning it will be there for a very very long time.

    No need for hysteria.

    I’m not hysterical photonz1.

  65. The shadow economy

    Why do we hardly ever hear about the corporate crime that is by far the biggest contributor to lost taxes? Why hasn’t there been any proper academic study into how much white collar crime is actually costing New Zealand? One can only asume that the governments complacency is due to some officials being corrupt.

  66. Jackal says “It’s also hazardous if you breath it…”

    Well you’ll be ok ….as long as you don’t swim out to the Rena, cut through the hull, unstack the containers so you can break in to the ones with Cryolite, rip through the double bagging, crush it up, and snort it.

    And as long as they put an advisory out, for fish not to do the same, we’ll all be ok.

  67. photonz1

    And as long as they put an advisory out, for fish not to do the same, we’ll all be ok.

    Except the Cryolite is seeping into the ocean. Any ideas about the reactive qualities of the 23,240 kgs of Alkylsulphonic Acid, 350 tonnes of crude oil and 3500 litres of Corexit 9500 known to be in the ocean?

    Any ideas on what the fuck that yellow stuff is… it’s not butter or milk powder as the MNZ would have us believe. FFS!

    I wonder why the MNZ isn’t releasing the full inventory and the Ombudsman is now ignoring my formal complaint that the MNZ hasn’t adhered to my OIA request?

    Yeah! Everything is just fine… nothing to see, please move along.

  68. If you want to worry about something washing up on our coasts, you should be worrying about they deadly mix of sodium chloride and dihydrogen monoxide.

    It’s far more hazzardous to humans than cryolite and every year people die from ingesting it.

  69. Photo.

    My apologies that reality is not simplistic enough for you to digest.

    Debt to build for the future is different from debt so Key has more money to holiday in Hawaii. Gettit.

  70. Kerry – if you don’t sell assets, then one of the following has to happen.

    Either you don’t build new schools, hopsitals and other infrastructure,

    OR

    You take on more debt.

    You never answered the question on which you would choose.

  71. I notice Photonz, that you are completely incapable of even SEEING that you left out the option of

    .

    .

    .

    .

    RAISING TAXES.

    This is a blind spot of no small size.

    BJ

  72. BJ says “RAISING TAXES. – This is a blind spot of no small size.”

    I didn’t add that option because it’s a silly idea. Add it if you wish.

    Option 3. Damage the economy when we can least afford it, by raising taxes.

    Even Sweden is lowering taxes, lowering benefit payouts, and cutting government spending as a percentage of GDP – resulting in benefits for the economy – see
    http://www.economist.com/node/18805503

  73. 200 arrested as cops raid Occupy LA camp

    LOS ANGELES – More than 1,400 police officers, some in riot gear, cleared the Occupy Los Angeles camp early Wednesday, driving protesters from a park around City Hall and arresting more than 200 who defied orders to leave. Similar raids in Philadelphia led to 52 arrests, but the scene in both cities was relatively peaceful.

    As crappy as things get in NZ sometimes… I’m glad I don’t live in the states at the moment.

    photon

    You should be worrying about they deadly mix of sodium chloride and dihydrogen monoxide.

    I know… especially since National cut funding for school swimming programs. Your assertion has nothing to do with the thousands of litres of highly toxic chemicals that spilled from the Rena though. In fact your argument is even more pathetic than usual… I’m even feel a bit sorry for you.

  74. Jackal says “I’m even feel a bit sorry for you”

    Don’t concern yourself – I’m very happy, worked hard for a long time to become financially secure, have big plans and a bright future.

    And I don’t take every out of context little tiny piece of information I can find, and make it into the biggest negative I can.

    And I’m not at risk of drowning (in negativity that is).

    Where will you be in three years Todd? By the time the next election comes around, will you still be so angry and negative?

    If not, what plans do you have in place for a much brighter future?

  75. I didn’t add that option because it’s a silly idea. Add it if you wish.

    As long as you actually realize it exists and the REST of us know it isn’t silly. You offered a false choice Photonz…. and every one of us knows it. Our taxes are among the lowest available IIRC.

    BJ

  76. bj – The Greens election policy was to increase taxes by billions – and they didn’t have any analysis at all on what damage this would do to the economy.

    You put forwward an idea to add even more billions to that.

    Again – without the slightest acknowledgement that there is a negative consequence in taking billions of dollars away from the productive sector.

  77. photon

    Don’t concern yourself – I’m very happy, worked hard for a long time to become financially secure, have big plans and a bright future.

    I wasn’t thinking of your happiness photon… I was thinking of how pathetic your little troll argument is. I feel pity for you photon for providing such a warped argument, your working life and financial security has nothing to do with why I feel sorry for you.

    And I’m not at risk of drowning (in negativity that is).

    You really should learn how to swim.

    And I don’t take every out of context little tiny piece of information I can find, and make it into the biggest negative I can.

    Yes you do… you also provide hoax information and don’t acknowledge the truth when people repeatedly smack you in the face with it.

    Where will you be in three years Todd? By the time the next election comes around, will you still be so angry and negative?

    Please stop addressing me as Todd. I’m thinking about leaving NZ actually… not that my private life is any of your business.

    You are right that I am angry… particularly about the potential sell off of this countries best earning assets that my grandparents built up and paid for. Being a realist is not being negative btw. I think what you are really asking is will I still be blogging in three years time. Yes! I have plans to develop my blogging. Apart from responding to little sycophantic trolls like you photon, I find it a worthwhile endeavor.

    If not, what plans do you have in place for a much brighter future?

    Get rid of the John Key party… and their blighted future plan.

  78. Just a few points

    The USA is proposing to raise tax revenue to reduce its deficit.
    Countries across Euro zone are doing the same
    The UK Tories increased the top rate to 50p

    Our tax rates are lower than all of them.

    Australia placed extra levels of tax to afford the flood costs in Queensland.

    These countries all have CGT, they all have higher taxation rates than us and higher levels of income per person.

    Greens propose we do what they do, have an earthquake levy and have a CGT – apparently the Greens and most of the OECD are being told that photonz knows better.

    They all have less GST/VAT on food than us – and lower rates of child poverty. Guess for some reason we cannot afford to do what they do to help the poor.

  79. Day of strikes as millions heed unions’ call to fight pension cuts

    The UK is experiencing the worst disruption to services in decades as more than 2 million public sector workers stage a nationwide strike, closing schools and bringing councils and hospitals to a virtual standstill.

    The strike by more than 30 unions over cuts to public sector pensions started at midnight, leading to the closure of most state schools; cancellation of refuse collections; rail service and tunnel closures; the postponement of thousands of non-emergency hospital operations; and possible delays at airports and ferry terminals.

    Although financially justified… Labours plan to raise the retirement age wasn’t a good strategic move. The public resentment surrounding changes has just been highlighted.

  80. when keys’ support drops as shearers’ rises…

    ..he won’t handle it well..

    ..and will get really sulky/truculent…

    ..it will be fun to watch..

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

  81. SPC says “They all have less GST/VAT on food than us”

    And how much difference does taking GST off fresh food make?

    LESS than $1 per week per person.

    And how much differenece does selling assets make?

    LESS than $0.50 cents per week per person.

    BJ says “…and naked ignorance describes the supporters of National”

    So why did you come to a country where half the population are so ignorant?

  82. seriously photonz..

    you are reduced to a ‘go home yank..!’..?

    pathetic..

    ..and do keep in mind..

    ..this is as good as it gets for key/nact..

    ..coming up is three years of direct-action/occupying..

    ..and then a shearer/green/whoever grouping sweeping these/you bastards out of power..

    ..and for a long time..

    ..and i wouldn’t count the asset-sales as done and dusted quite yet..eh..?

    ..’cos you ain’t seen nothing yet..

    ..as it is those issues the direct-action will coalesce around..

    ..and the popularity of key/nact will continue to slide..

    ..especially as we watch the antics of the clown key wangled into office..banks..

    ..we didn’t give him a landslide bums’ rush here in auckland for no reason..

    ..prepare to cringe..

    ..eh..?

    ..and on balance..even tho’ he does terrible things to defenceless little animals..(as most do..but i will persevere with that one..)

    ..i am quite happy with the likes of yanks like b.j. moving here..

    ..he certainly adds a shitload more value than..say..you..?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

    (and where did you blow in from..?..)

  83. C’mon Photonz… Try to remember that the US elected and then re-elected GW Bush… I know I try to forget it myself but as bad as it may seem here… that is really quite a bit worse :-)

  84. So why is New Zealand having so much bad luck? I mean we won the RWC and all but everything else has been going down hill.

    Because we are supposed to create our own luck, but nobody is because the new and progressive “handout ideology” has sapped our collective resolve…….

    And causes people to believe in stupid concepts like “luck”.

  85. Perhaps photonz can name one country with a better CGT than that proposed by Greens or Labour? Every country in the OECD bar Switzerland and Turkey have one.

  86. phil says “you are reduced to a ‘go home yank..!’..?”

    No – just my way of pointing out that throwing a derogatory label across half the NZ population because they didn’t vote the way you did is a gross generalisation.

    bj says “Try to remember that the US elected and then re-elected GW Bush”

    Somehow, I knew that would be your reply – and I do sympathise – honestly.

  87. The difference between spending $10B on roads and selling $6B of assets is an increase in debt of $4B, let alone the loss of half of the dividends each year.

    One could always question the necessity of spending money before selling assets.

  88. Guess for some reason we cannot afford to do what they do to help the poor.

    And guess what SPC – in those countries you have massive court cases to decide what is liable for VAT/GST and what is not. The House of Lords once had to decide whether a Jafa Cake was a biscuit or a cake, because one was liable for VAT and the other one was not – I don’t know about you, but I think there are more important things for the judiciary to do than spend their time determining what is and is not a cake.

  89. It’s either food or it is not (why distinguish between cake and biscuit) – we can learn from them on how to word the legislation based on their experience/precedent etc.

    Modern computer software makes it easy.

    The poor are worth it.

  90. “..just my way of pointing out that throwing a derogatory label across half the NZ population because they didn’t vote the way you did is a gross generalisation…”

    i think that to vote to sell our energy-assets to the 1%..so they can screw us forever..

    ..automatically deems that 48% who voted national to be both deranged fools..

    ..and to be as dumb as dog’-balls…

    ..how could it not…?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

  91. SPC says “Perhaps photonz can name one country with a better CGT than that proposed by Greens or Labour?”

    I’m not fundamentally against CGT – it’s just that the Greens and Labour plans were awful – they would have made our problems worse – not better.

    Instead of looking at our problems, and using CGT to try ro remedy them, the Greens and labour plans were simply our to get “rich pricks”, and as such would do the exact opposite of whats needed.

    Instead of building a CGT system on the problems that needed to be solved, they designed it around who they hated most.

    The Problems that need to be solved –

    1/ We borrow massive amounts of money from overseas banks to buy exactly the same houses we already own.

    So effectively we own identical houses as we did ten years ago, but we are $100 billion more in debt, and have to pay an ADDITIONAL $6 billion in interest every year – that’s an ADDITIONAL $4000 per household per year going overseas in interest – for the same houses.

    2/ Our investment in houses means we DON’T invest in the productive sector – the sharemarket, businesses, as well as consumer goods.

    So the Greens and Labours plan was to ADD CGT to the places NZ needa to invest more (and thereby slow that investment even further), but NOT on the places we want to discourage investment – housing (they were going to make the vast majority of houses free of tax – thereby funnelling money exactly where we DON’T want it)

    This would obviously have the EXACT OPPOSITE effect of what we need to correct our serious problems.

    A better solution would be to put CGT on everything.

    Better still would be CGT on all housing, but not the productive sector.

    Or maybe it’s worth looking at a completely different way of keeping lid on BOTH house prices, AND debt, by having a tax on house mortgages – perhaps an extra 1% on top of the interest rate.

    So you need to fight the REAL issue – house prices going up far faster than inflation. And if you fix THIS problem – the real problem – then you have no issues with greed envy – i.e. the rich pricks won’t be making capital gains on houses anyway.

  92. Bay of death

    The authorities expect people to believe that after New Zealand’s worst marine oil spill, we have an unrelated naturally occurring outbreak of Paralytic Shellfish Poisoning that has made the shellfish toxic?

  93. Fukushima is worse

    Nuclear power plants are far too dangerous to keep operational past their closure dates. It is a crime against humanity to continue to use a technology that has so much destructive potential.

    With children in Japan now showing serious health issues because of exposure to radiation after the Fukushima meltdowns, now is a time to demand a nuclear free future.

  94. photon

    No – just my way of pointing out that throwing a derogatory label across half the NZ population because they didn’t vote the way you did is a gross generalisation.

    Half the NZ population? National gained 35% of the eligible votes of 3,053,705 people. However the population is 4,133,900 meaning only 23% of the population stupidly voted for National. That’s hardly half of the population photon… learn how to do basic math please.

  95. phils says ” think that to vote to sell our energy-assets to the 1%..so they can screw us forever..”

    By the time
    – Kiwisaver funds buy in represnting 2 million workers
    – Iwi buy in representing 0.5 million Maori
    – ACC buy in representing 4 million people
    – NZ Superannuation Fund buys in, representing 4 million people
    – and the govt holds onto 51%,

    then 100% of the country will have a stake in the assets – quite different to the 1% you claim.

    And anybody who saves their cigarette/booze/drug money for a year, could probablty afford a parcel of energy shares as well.

  96. Jackal says “National gained 35% of the eligible votes of 3,053,705 people. However the population is 4,133,900 meaning only 23% of the population stupidly voted for National.”

    Yawn.

    Funny how you never apply your formula to halve the Green vote.

  97. photon

    Funny how you never apply your formula to halve the Green vote.

    I’m not the one claiming the Greens won half the populations votes you dick!

  98. It’s either food or it is not (why distinguish between cake and biscuit) – we can learn from them on how to word the legislation based on their experience/precedent etc.

    You might try to word the legislation a certain way, but even then, you will still end up with court cases over whether a particular item is an item of food or not. One of the good things about New Zealand GST system is that people don’t end up in court over definitions of items; about the only issue has been around financial transactions (which, incidentally, is one of the few exempt items).

    Modern computer software makes it easy.

    Lawyers and Accountants will always try and find some way of minimising their client’s tax bill, and I don’t really want to see judges wasting their time on trying to define whether something is a foodstuff or not. That money would be better used on vouchers for the needy so they can purchase said food.

    Or maybe it’s worth looking at a completely different way of keeping lid on BOTH house prices, AND debt, by having a tax on house mortgages – perhaps an extra 1% on top of the interest rate.

    My own preference would be to have a series of reserve ratios – basically, it would reduce the amount of lending that would be possible in general.

  99. So you cannot name one country with a better CGT than that proposed by Greens or Labour?

    PS It is not the intention of a CGT to manage the price/value of assets, but to tax income derived from investment of capital in all its forms, capital gain as well as dividend.

  100. john-ston – it’s not hard to list categories of items that there might be contention over whether they are food or not – just use foreign experience to make a prior legislative ruling.

    Perhaps you are just opposed to exempting food from consumption tax?

  101. Is not the idea that capital gain from buying a selling ones home residence is income that can be taxed spurious?

    After all there is no way to account for the replacement of the home.

  102. SPC,

    It is not the idea of a CGT that is the problem, it is the fact that the Greens are counting on it raising $4.5 billion per annum.

    http://www.greens.org.nz/tax

    With CGT set at income levels, it requires (at 30% corporate tax rate) a capital gains gross turnover of around $15B per annum.

    Please tell where this capital gains turnover is? Where is the capital coming from to pay the sellers of the assets?

    Is there that yearly turnover on assets in New Zealand?

    Part of the Greens taxation policy says

    A capital gains tax will make houses more affordable for young buyers who are currently priced out of the market, and over time it will raise $4.5 billion a year in revenue for the Government.

    How will a CGT make housing cheaper? Will it dratically reduce land , timber, material or labour price to make houses more affordable?

  103. Self-reliance goes against the grain of the capitalist system, which relies on people being dependent on industrial food production. This is an unsustainable way to meet the growing demand for food, with the resources required becoming scarce.

    So tell me Jackal, why haven’t the Greens or Greens supporters (or anyone else for that matter) purchased a few dairy farms and begun to provide their communities with cheaper milk?, or apples?, or bread?

    Time to put your money where your mouth is, come on folks, show us another way.

  104. SPC says “PS It is not the intention of a CGT to manage the price/value of assets, but to tax income derived from investment of capital in all its forms, capital gain as well as dividend.”

    That’s exactly why the Greens and Labours CGT schemes are so bad. They ignore the really big problems from high house prices –
    – six billion additional dollars heading offshore every year in interest
    – high rents
    – unaffordable housing

    – and lack of investments in business and shares

    And they make a CGT scheme that will make these ALL these problems WORSE by taxing everything productive, and having zero tax on most houses.

    Their schemes are not designed around fixing the countries serious problems.

    They simply follow a blind ideology that will make these problems worse.

  105. jackal says “I’m not the one claiming the Greens won half the populations votes you dick!”

    The discussion was about support for National, which has been around 50% in poll after poll for months.

    You are the one who changed it from support to actual votes – presumably so you could get a chance to get all anally retentive with your calculator and apply your little formula.

    All so you can say the govt is not supported by half the country.

    Who cares.

  106. Gerrit quotes Greens policy “A capital gains tax will make houses more affordable for young buyers who are currently priced out of the market”

    This deserves a prize for naivety.

    They think investment money will flow to where there are HIGHER taxes, from where there are ZERO taxes.

    But since the dawn of taxes this has never happened.

  107. photonz – every country in the OECD bar Switzerland and Turkey and us have a CGT. It’s purpose (that of a CGT) is to tax income derived from capital gain.

    Can you name any CGT in the world better than that proposed by Greens and labour? No.

    Other countries with a CGT have more money invested in shares than us and they do not borrow money from offshore to buy their houses. A CGT has nothing to do with these things. Spin away.

  108. Its funny. And frustrating.

    It is only those idealogically tinted glasses that prevent one seeing that both asset sales and increasing the rate an/or breadth of taxation (of which CGT is an example) are the same idea. If one is good (or bad) then so is the other.

    The underlying problem is being ignored in the rush to disadvantage some section of the population or other.

    The income per New Zealander relative to the OECD average has been dropping for over half a century. The very best that any of the ideas on the table now (with the possible exception of non-agricultural R&D investment) can hope to do is to reduce the rate of that decline.

    We need better ideas to lead to a better future. Amd no-one is putting foreward anything remotely useful. (And no, green jobs are not the answer, though the solution may create green jobs some day)

  109. SPC says “photonz – every country in the OECD bar Switzerland and Turkey and us have a CGT”

    That’s about the silliest reason that I’ve ever heard – because everyone else has one.

    So what about Hong Kong?
    And Netherlands?
    And Italy?
    And Singapore?
    And Belgium?
    And Austria?
    etc
    etc
    etc

    See
    http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Europe/Luxembourg/capital-gains-tax

    And numerous OECD countries have no CGT on shares.
    And many offset losses against gains.
    And being the most complicated type of tax, most have a huge number of loopholes.

    SPC says “Can you name any CGT in the world better than that proposed by Greens and labour? No”

    Already did.

    SPC says “Other countries with a CGT have more money invested in shares than us and they do not borrow money from offshore to buy their houses. A CGT has nothing to do with these things. Spin away”

    OK – you win (the naivety award).

    You really think people will shift more money from where they are not taxed, to where they will be?

  110. SPC says “You will find the Tax Working Group came up with the $4.5B pa figure for revenue from a CGT.”

    They also said it’s likely to take 15 years to get to the full figure.

  111. Italy:

    Capital Gain

    The capital gain from the transfer of qualifying shareholdings is taxable to the extent of 40 percent and must be declared in the tax return.

    The capital gain from the transfer of non-qualifying shareholdings is subject to a substitute tax of 12.5 percent.

    Other types of capital gain are subject to a substitution tax of 12.5 percent.

    There are special rules for shareholdings in companies resident in countries with privileged tax systems.

    There are exclusions and exemptions for non-residents if they satisfy specific subjective and objective

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    So you are talking about a CGT on Housing only? Not the general CGT?

    No… not quite… there are a lot of assumptions in there you forgot to mention…

    The property is directly and jointly owned by husband and wife;
    They have owned it for 10 years;
    It is their only source of capital gains in the country
    It has appreciated in value by 100% over the 10 years to sale
    The property was worth US$250,000 or 250,000 at purchase.
    It is not their sole or principal residence.

    These assumptions are critical. In many countries a holding period of less than 5 years results in capital gains being taxable. But a longer holding period often results in no capital gains tax being payable. For more details see the Data FAQ

    The taxation and import freedoms that result in us putting 80% of our investment capital into houses are NOT sane. Raising taxes on housing speculation “investment” is only part of the solution… and while this discussion centered on taxes Greens have serious objections to sending manufacturing jobs offshore so we can import every other product we use.

  112. That’s exactly why the Greens and Labours CGT schemes are so bad. They ignore the really big problems from high house prices –
    – six billion additional dollars heading offshore every year in interest
    – high rents
    – unaffordable housing

    – and lack of investments in business and shares

    Our policies have to be taken together… and ignoring the ones not related to taxes is a mistake.

  113. photonz

    You only supplied a list referring to CGT on property – and based on a strict definition. Just because countries like Belgium, Austria and Italy do not have a CGT on owner occupied housing does not mean they do not have a CGT – if Labour or Green CGT was applied we would also still not have a CGT on owner occupied property.

    Is there any country with a tax on owner occupied property that lacks a CGT on share investment? Can you name any with the system you prefer?

  114. SPC,

    The report says nothing about what $15B turnover will generate $4.5B in taxes.

    No companion notes, no tables, no background calculations, just this magical, mythical figure of $4.5B appears and is taken as gospel.

    No indication whatsoever of where the taxable $15B capital gains taxable turnover tranactions are nor the cost involved in collecting this fairytale figure.

    Is the $4.5B net or gross income taxation? No mention if the whole or how much will be swallowed up by collecting costs.

    Can anyone enrich us with the knowledge?

    According to the report, it is interesting that it took the Australian economy 15 years to build up an asset base worth taxing.

    How long will the NZL asset base take to develop before it is worth taxing?

    And chapter six (page 40) is interesting in regards double taxation of share dividends. Worth a read. So is the further mention of the problem of share indexation (page 41).

  115. SPC and BJ,

    The Greens CGT is based on

    Support the introduction of a comprehensive capital gains tax on inflation-adjusted capital gains at the time of realisation.

    http://www.greens.org.nz/policy/green-taxation-and-monetary-policy

    Do you realise that this includes KiwiSaver! It is afterall a “comprehensive” tax on capital gains (you would not be in KiwiSaver if not for the capital gains no?).

    So for every dollar your KiwiSaver provider gains for you above the inflation rate you will pay CGT.

    The employer contribution share to your KiwiSaver account (remember the account is an asset you own) will also be liable for the full CGT amount.

    So after a lifetime of compound interest saving, you will face a hefty CGT when cashing in your KiwiSaver asset at retirement.

    Same for the most simplist if savings, term deposits. For every dollar earned above the rate of inflation (currently around 3% but interest rates are around 5%) the difference will be liable to CGT.

    You rightly pay tax on interest received but please tell people that you are also going to tax them on the capital gain made by that interest above the rate of inflation.

    It is these issues that cloud CGT and means that better explanations are required on what is taxed at what rate and what is not.

  116. Thought I’d get a sleep-in
    Darned Monty Python Album woke me…

    “Songs of Surrender.
    Running Songs and Surrendering Ballads”
    by
    the Queen’s Own Massed Cowards….

  117. john-ston – it’s not hard to list categories of items that there might be contention over whether they are food or not – just use foreign experience to make a prior legislative ruling.

    You might have a list, but there will always be something that isn’t on the list and a valid argument could be made that it is or is not a foodstuff. That is where you start using up valuable court time.

    Perhaps you are just opposed to exempting food from consumption tax?

    Of course I am opposed to exempting food from consumption tax. The reality is that it will not bring food prices down (why would Countdown suddenly reduce the price of food when they know that their customers don’t mind paying existing prices?), and all it will do is make lawyers and tax accountants wealthier.

    The minute you start making exemptions is the minute you sign a blank cheque to the lawyers and tax accountants.

  118. SPC – so your best arguement for CGT tax is not the positives and negatives for NZ, but that

    some countries have it on
    some things
    some of the time, with
    some exceptions.

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