by frog
Published in THE ISSUES by frog on Wed, July 27th, 2011
Tags: general debate
General debate, July 27, 2011
Published: July 27, 2011
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Asshole of the Week Award – Te Ururoa Flavell
In a despicable column in Rotorua’s Daily Post newspaper, Waiariki MP Te Ururoa Flavell suggested a “very hard stand” should be made on suicide. He thinks that “one is almost wasting time asking why this happens.” Really! We’re wasting our time asking why young people kill themselves?
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The management response is to say they’ll be depending on volunteers and ‘partnerships’ with businesses to pick up the workload.
Problem is, DOC already uses a considerable number of volunteers, as do many other conservation organisations, there simply isn’t a whole lot of unused capacity in the community to do cover the work. And businesses aren’t going to be doing a whole lot more of this work unless there’s something in it for them. Again, those businesses that genuinely want to do conservation work will already be doing it.
The conservation estate is of incredible value to New Zealanders. Running down its management is something the Green Party should be up in arms about.
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HUNTSVILLE, Ala. (July 26, 2011) — Data from NASA’s Terra satellite shows that when the climate warms, Earth’s atmosphere is apparently more efficient at releasing energy to space than models used to forecast climate change have been programmed to “believe.”
The result is climate forecasts that are warming substantially faster than the atmosphere, says Dr. Roy Spencer, a principal research scientist in the Earth System Science Center at The University of Alabama in Huntsville.
The previously unexplained differences between model-based forecasts of rapid global warming and meteorological data showing a slower rate of warming have been the source of often contentious debate and controversy for more than two decades.
In research published this week in the journal “Remote Sensing” http://www.mdpi.com/2072-4292/3/8/1603/pdf, Spencer and UA Huntsville’s Dr. Danny Braswell compared what a half dozen climate models say the atmosphere should do to satellite data showing what the atmosphere actually did during the 18 months before and after warming events between 2000 and 2011.
“The satellite observations suggest there is much more energy lost to space during and after warming than the climate models show,” Spencer said. “There is a huge discrepancy between the data and the forecasts that is especially big over the oceans.”
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latest poll:..
“..12 per cent of Greens’ supporters preferred to join up with the National Party…
… more than the 5 per cent who preferred the Maori Party..”
now there’s a minor revelation…of sorts…eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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I wonder how they identify “Green Supporters” Phil. Are these people who vote Green but aren’t part of the party?
Moreover, one has to consider that the current “Maori” party is a wholly owned business oriented group. In other words, the Maori as a people are divided up much as the rest of the population is, with Liberals and Conservatives and Greens… but they are represented by just ONE party which is currently under the control of their “conservatives”.
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So the choice is between National and Maori-National… and the difference is?
BJ
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Spencer’s work has to be read and understood well, as he is a decent scientist and any errors are going to be honest, or limitations of the data he works with… and that means it takes a fair bit of work to decide what it means. In all likelihood someone else will have examined this before I can go over it in any depth.
Scaffetta however… makes assumptions that are easily overlooked (about 3 words and no justifications) to create his outcomes/model….
I respect Spencer’s efforts more, as he doesn’t resort to that sort of bafflegab.
He is likely to be wrong in some subtle way (given the paleo record and the rest of the science around this), but he might not be ( we can hope ).
The problem is that warming continues apace, despite what he is indicating as a possible negative feedback and despite a rather large shortfall (compared with a previous half-century) of solar input.
ciao
BJ
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bjchip @ 1.53pm
I understand they ask who the person being polled voted for in 2008.
Thus this would be 12% of the people who say they voted Green in 2008 now say that they are going to vote National.
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i presume they wd be people who answered green when asked which political party they support…
..so y’reckon a mana party question would have got a more positive response from ‘green supporters’…?
in some ways it is a stupid poll..
..they register 59% of people having a capital gains tax concern/priority..
..but they don’t ask if they support the tax…
…or are packing-it at the prospect…
..phil(whoar.co.nz)
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The right appear to think that just because we don’t have children suffering from distended tummies and dying of malnutrition then poverty doesn’t exist in New Zealand. This sort of arrogant ignorance is used to justify the wealth creation of a few and the creation of a growing underclass….
http://localbodies-bsprout.blogspot.com/2011/07/poverty-absolute-poverty-and-skiing.html
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Excellent article by David White in the latest Listener questioning the lack of investment in drug and alcohol rehabilitation for prisoners by this government, despite the acknowledgment of positive outcomes.
http://localbodies-bsprout.blogspot.com/2011/07/reform-and-rehabilitation-worth.html
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sprout – don’t forget the cost to society of the criminal offending of addicts while they are not behind bars. A significant amount of damage is caused plus some injuries and even deaths, often of innocent parties. And the profits go to gangs, other drug dealers and fences – all of whom have a vested interest in keeping the addicts addicted.
Trevor.
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An American state decides to limit access to the vote to those with a drivers license …
http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2011/07/how-blatant-does-it-have-to-get.html
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Those without state-issued photo identification and who would need to obtain one under the Wisconsin Voter ID bill include:
23 percent of all elderly Wisconsinites over the age of 65
17 percent of white men and women
55 percent of all African American males and 49 percent of African American women
46 percent of Hispanic men and 59% of Hispanic women
78 percent of African American males age 18-24 and 66 percent of African American women age 18-24
Yes, the bill as written does have a provision to provide free identification for some Wisconsinites. Each and every one of these people would have to take the time off (in many cases unpaid) from work or family obligations to flock to Wisconsin DMVs.
Governor Scott Walker, citing budget squeezes, is closing 10 DMV offices throughout the state. But these aren’t just any old DMV offices, no. They’re conveniently located in Democratic districts.
http://crooksandliars.com/karoli/gop-voter-disenfranchisement-wisconsin-styl
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keith locke has been strong in his support for the (cia-backed(!))’rebels’ in libya..
..(do a ‘libya’ frogblog search if you doubt me..)
..could he be asked ..’why..?’..
http://whoar.co.nz/2011/the-left-has-lost-its-way-over-libya/
“…In reality of course the Empire said either you do as we say or we’ll destroy you.
So Gaddafi, Khadafi, Ghaddafi or Qhadafi did a deal.
It wasn’t the first time and unfortunately it won’t be the last – and anyway it didn’t help him…
… they got his oil, or nearly so.
‘Britain [to Gaddafi]: We’ll let you stay if you step down’ – The Times front page headline, 26 July 2011
Hence the initial response on the left – and not just a minority – was to support the ‘rebellion’ -
- after all it appeared to have all the right credentials – unless you looked very closely.
For me, as soon as I saw that a main player in the rebel camp was a CIA asset based in Washington DC -
- that was it for me.
Game over….”
given all this…is he now ready to recant on his previous support for the overthrow of gadaffi..?
..or..alternatively..could he please explain/justify his continued wrong-footing on this issue..?
..would it be too much to say..that he appears to be having another pol-pot-moment’…?
..and frog..’d'ya reckon keith locke will answer these questions/concerns..?
..or is he also ‘away on holiday’..?
(..also somewhere without internet…?)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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(and should mr locke still be in any doubt…how about he peruses some of the lies he has believed…)
http://whoar.co.nz/2011/libya-war-lies-worse-than-iraq-%C2%A0%C2%A0/
“…Asmara, Eritrea: The lies used to justify the NATO war against Libya have surpassed those created to justify the invasion of Iraq.
Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch both had honest observers on the ground for months following the rebellion in eastern Libya -
- and both have repudiated every major charge used to justify the NATO war on Libya.
According to the Amnesty observer, who is fluent in Arabic – there is not one confirmed instance of rape by the pro-Gadaffi fighters -
- not even a doctor who knew of one.
All the Viagra mass rape stories were fabrications.
Amnesty could not verify a single “African mercenary” fighting for Gaddafi story -
- and the highly charged international satellite television accounts of African mercenaries raping women that were used to panic much of the eastern Libyan population into fleeing their homes were fabrications.
There were no confirmed accounts of helicopter gun ships attacking civilians – and no jet fighters bombing people -
- which completely invalidates any justification for the No-Fly Zone inSecurity Council resolution used as an excuse for NATO to launch its attacks on Libya.
After three months on the ground in rebel controlled territory, the Amnesty investigator could only confirm 110 deaths in Benghazi – which included Gadaffi supporters.
Only 110 dead in Benghazi?
Wait a minute, we were told thousands had died there, ten thousand even.
No, only 110 lost their lives including pro-government people.
No rapes, no African mercenaries, no helicopter gun ships or bombers, and only 110 ten deaths prior to the launch of the NATO bombing campaign…
… every reason was based on a lie.
Today according to the Libyan Red Crescent Society, over 1,100 civilians have been killed by NATO bombs including over 400 women and children.
Over 6,000 Libyan civilians have been injured or wounded by the bombing, many very seriously.
Compared to the war on Iraq, these numbers are tiny, but the reasons for the Libyan war have no merit in any form.
Saddam Hussein was evil, he invaded his neighbors in wars that killed up to a million.
He used Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD’s) in the form of poison gas on both his neighbors and his own people, killing tens of thousands.
He was brutal and corrupt and when American tanks rolled into Iraq the Iraqi people refused to fight for him – simply put their weapons down and went home.
Libya under Col. Gadaffi hasn’t invaded their neighbors.
Gadaffi never used WMD’s on anyone, let alone his own people.
As for Gadaffi being brutal, in Libya’s neighbor Algeria, the Algerian military fought a counterinsurgency for a decade in the 1990’s that witnessed the deaths of some 200,000 Algerians.
Now that is brutal and nothing anywhere near this has happened in Libya.
In Egypt and Tunisia, western puppets like Mubarak and Ben Ali had almost no support amongst their people with few if anyone willing to fight and die to defend them.
The majority of the Libyan people are rallying behind the Libyan government and “the leader”, Muammar Gadaffi -
- with over one million people demonstrating in support on July 1 in Tripoli, the capital of Libya.
Thousands of Libyan youth are on the front lines fighting the rebels – and despite thousands of NATO air strikes authentic journalists on the ground in western Libya report their morale remains high.
In Egypt the popular explosion that resulted in the Army seizing power from Mubarak began in the very poorest neighborhoods in Cairo and other Egyptian cities where the price of basic food items like bread, sugar and cooking oil had skyrocketed and lead to widespread hunger.
In many parts of Egypt’s poor neighborhoods gasoline/benzene is easier to find then clean drinking water.
Medical care and education is only for those with the money to pay for it.
Life for the people of Tunisia is not that much better.
In contrast, the Libyan people have the longest life expectancy in the Arab world.
The Libyan people have the best, free public health system in the Arab world.
The Libyan people have the best, free public education system in the Arab world.
Most Libyan families own their own home and most Libyan families own their own automobile.
Libya is so much better off then its neighbors every year tens of thousands of Egyptians and Tunisians migrated to Libya to earn money to feed their families-
- doing the dirty work the Libyan people refused to do.
When it comes to how Gadaffi oversaw a dramatic rise in the standard of living for the Libyan people despite decades of UN inSecurity Council sanctions against the Libyan economy –
- honest observers acknowledge that Gadaffi stands head and shoulders above the kings, sheiks, emirs and various dictators who rule the rest of the Arab world.
So why did NATO launch this war against Libya?
First of all Gadaffi was on the verge of creating a new banking system in Africa that was going to put the IMF, World Bank and assorted other western banksters out of business in Africa.
No more predatory western loans used to cripple African economies – instead a $42 billion dollar African Investment Bank would be supplying major loans at little or even zero interest rates…”
(cont..)
(you have got this so so wrong…mr locke…
..and any explanation of your curious stance…would be appreciated..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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If you want to engage Keith Locke on this – perhaps the above should be posted on the Libyan Mess thread.
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Trevor29-I quite agree, rehabilitating addicts creates huge savings for our economy and especially takes the pressure of our health systems and our communities, it is a “no brainer” in more ways than one. It is important when we remove people from society that we return them back into society in better shape than when they came in.
It is a pity that the Sensible Sentencing Trust and others like them have focussed on punishment and longer sentences when levels of crime have not actually increased. If we had focussed on treating the causes of crime and rehabilitation insterad we would have saved billions of dollars and have a more productive workforce.
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I got yer photo ID right here mate…
http://spectrum.ieee.org/riskfactor/computing/it/heres-looking-at-you-and-you-and-you-
The Surveillance Society.
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http://whoar.co.nz/2011/fundamentalism-kills-our-religious-and-secular-fundamentalists-all-peddle-the-same-racist-filth-and-intolerance-that-infected-breivik-%C2%A0%C2%A0/
“…The gravest threat we face from terrorism, as the killings in Norway by Anders Behring Breivik underscore, comes not from the Islamic world but the radical Christian right -
- and the secular fundamentalists who propagate the bigoted, hateful caricatures of observant Muslims and those defined as our internal enemies.
The caricature and fear are spread as diligently by the Christian right as they are by atheists such as Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens.
Our religious and secular fundamentalists all peddle the same racist filth and intolerance that infected Breivik.
This filth has poisoned and degraded our civil discourse.
The looming economic and environmental collapse will provide sparks and tinder to transform this coarse language of fundamentalist hatred into, I fear, the murderous rampages experienced by Norway.
I worry more about the Anders Breiviks than the Mohammed Attas.
The battle under way in America is not between religion and science. It is not between those who embrace the rational and those who believe in biblical myth.
It is not between Western civilization and Islam.
The blustering televangelists and the New Atheists, the television pundits and our vaunted Middle East specialists and experts -
- are all part of our vast, simplistic culture of mindless entertainment.
They are in show business.
They cannot afford complexity.
Religion and science, facts and lies, truth and fiction, are the least of their concerns.
They trade insults and clichés like cartoon characters.
They don masks.
One wears the mask of religion.
One wears the mask of science.
One wears the mask of journalism.
One wears the mask of the terrorism expert.
They jab back and forth in predictable sound bites.
It is a sterile and useless debate between bizarre subsets of American culture.
Some use the scientific theory of evolution to explain the behavior and rules for complex social and political systems -
- and others insist that the six-day creation story in Genesis is a factual account.
The danger we face is not in the quarrel between religion advocates and evolution advocates -
- but in the widespread mental habit of fundamentalism itself.
We live in a fundamentalist culture.
Our utopian visions of inevitable human progress, obsession with endless consumption, and fetish for power and unlimited growth are fed by illusions that are as dangerous as fantasies about the Second Coming.
These beliefs are the newest expression of the infatuation with the apocalypse -
- one first articulated to Western culture by the early church.
This apocalyptic vision was as central to the murderous beliefs of the French Jacobins, the Russian Bolsheviks and the German fascists – as it was to the early Christians.
The historian Arnold Toynbee argues that racism in Anglo-American culture was given a special virulence after the publication of the King James Bible.
The concept of “the chosen people” was quickly adopted, he wrote, by British and American imperialists.
It fed the disease of white supremacy.
It gave them the moral sanction to dominate and destroy other races – from the Native Americans to those on the subcontinent.
Our secular and religious fundamentalists come out of this twisted yearning for the apocalypse – and belief in the “chosen people.”
They advocate, in the language of religion and scientific rationalism, the divine right of our domination, the clash of civilizations.
They assure us that we are headed into the broad, uplifting world of universal democracy and a global free market – once we sign on for the subjugation and extermination of those who oppose us.
They insist—as the fascists and the communists did—that this call for a new world is based on reason, factual evidence and science or divine will.
But schemes for universal human advancement, no matter what language is used to justify them, are always mythic.
They are designed to satisfy a yearning for meaning and purpose.
They give the proponents of these myths the status of soothsayers and prophets.
And, when acted upon, they fill the Earth with mass graves, bombed cities, widespread misery and penal colonies.
The extent of this fundamentalism is evident in the strident utterances of the Christian right -
- as well as those of the so-called New Atheists…”
(cont..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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http://whoar.co.nz/2011/inside-the-meat-processing-plant/
“…Unless you are a very conscientious consumer or a vegetarian, you’re implicit in the industrialized slaughter of animals.
Many of us are (myself included).
It’s easy to forget that the Sunday morning bacon was once on the hoof – and easy to imagine that the animals are treated humanely until their deaths.
Recent journalism, like Robert Kenner’s documentary Food, Inc., and the ongoing activism of PETA, PCRA, and ASPCA has cast light on many of the otherwise hush-hushed commercial practices of meat-processing plants.
Ted Genoways, reporting for Mother Jones, covers the history of the modern meat industry in his profile of the Quality Pork Processors, Inc. plant in Austin, Minn.
But what really stands out in his writing is the description of how the bloody work of slaughter is done in the post-butcher economy.
‘..On the other side, Garcia inserted the metal nozzle of a 90-pounds-per-square-inch compressed-air hose and blasted the pigs’ brains into a pink slurry.
One head every three seconds.
A high-pressure burst, a fine rosy mist, and the slosh of brains slipping through a drain hole into a catch bucket.
(Some workers say the goo looked like Pepto-Bismol; others describe it as more like a lumpy strawberry milkshake.)
When the 10-pound barrel was filled, another worker would come to take the brains for shipping to Asia -
- where they are used as a thickener in stir-fry.
Most days that fall, production was so fast that the air never cleared between blasts -
- and the mist would slick workers at the head table in a grisly mix of brains and blood and grease.
Tasks at the head table are literally numbing.
The steady hum of the automatic Whizard knives gives many workers carpal tunnel syndrome.
And all you have to do is wait in the parking lot at shift change to see the shambling gait that comes from standing in one spot all day on the line.
For eight hours, Garcia stood, slipping heads onto the brain machine’s nozzle, pouring the glop into the drain – then dropping the empty skulls down a chute.
Genoways describes how the “fine rosy mist” at QPP has caused a viral outbreak that attacks the workers’ brains—leading to, in some cases, paralysis —
- after it is inhaled during work…”
(cont..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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http://www.truthdig.com/report/page2/sam_harris_responds_to_chris_hedges_fundamentalism_kills_column_20110726
Both Chris and Sam suffer from myopia. Chris thinks politics is the root of all evil and Sam thinks it’s religion. In fact, they both play a huge part, but it is silly for Hedges to claim Harris says things he simply hasn’t said.
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so…harris calls him insane…
..and uses that as the basis for an extended ad hominem-drenched rant…
..he answers none of the concerns raised by hedges…
..meh..!
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Waging War on Beneficiaries
Earlier this year Social Development and Employment Minister Paula Bennett, as part of National’s divide and rule agenda announced a “War on Beneficiaries.”
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@Sam’s early comment about DoC. If Th Greens were serious about the conservation estate, they’d make the conservation portfolio a condition of any support and therefore be ‘inside the tent’ to affect the change they say they want.
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@sproust claims of ‘poverty’ in NZ is not supported by the UNs definition of poverty. Poor people with subsidised shelter, warmth, clothing food and free medical care are not in poverty by any measure (outside the Child ‘Poverty’ Action Groups mean/median based comparison, whicg has people with a playstaion and full tummies as being in ‘poverty’)
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cd we somehow combine jeggings and mantrol…
..and set a new benchmark in ‘support’…?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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thought for the day:…
how did we end poverty for the elderly…?
..(where we used to have similar figures to our current child poverty stats..)
..wouldn’t it be the bleeding obvious to do the same for the 20% of children living in poverty…
..as was done for those elderly who used to be in that same position..
..but no longer are..?
..(just saying…!..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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valis..
how is this not kiwiblog…?
“..Our religious and secular fundamentalists all peddle the same racist filth and intolerance that infected Breivik.
This filth has poisoned and degraded our civil discourse…”
i think it is foolish to underestimate the power/danger of such constant rhetoric…
..it is like an acid…eating away at the fabric of society…
..and the ease at which they slip into group fantasies that involve slaughtering ‘lefties’ etc etc…
..is more than disturbing…
..and is it correct to say that actuasl violent/terrorist attacks in new zealand have been from the right…
..upon the left…?
..from the trades hall bombing..
..up to the rainbow warrior…
..why are the spooks all over harmless enviros etc…
..when these (heavily-armed) raving/drooling loons are publically fantasing about mass-murder rampages…?
is it just me..or dosen’t that seem somewhat out-of-whack..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Misanthropic Curmudgeon-Here is a useful link that establishes a benchmark for what could be called poverty in NZ. http://www.msd.govt.nz/about-msd-and-our-work/publications-resources/journals-and-magazines/social-policy-journal/spj05/05-poverty.html
I would be interested to know what you think is a level of poverty in NZ that would be low enough to cause concern (we are supposed to be an affluent, developed nation).
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good grief…!
the punters like labour-policies..
..but they don’t like/want goff..
..(why dosen’t goff just do the decent thing..and bow out…
..and let the two davids have a go at selling themselves as enablers of those policies the punters/voters like…?
i mean..enough already..!
..oh..!..and hone is beating brash in the preferred prime minister stakes..heh…!..eh..?..)
http://whoar.co.nz/2011/voters-prefer-labour-policy-but-not-party/
…Phil Goff takes a hiding in popularity …
…and Labour slumps futher despite support for capital gains tax.
Voters prefer Labour’s remedy for the economy over National’s, according to the latest Herald-DigiPoll survey – but they still don’t like the doctor.
A slip in support for Labour has given Labour leader Phil Goff a massive challenge to make up ground four months out from the election.
In the latest survey, Mr Goff has again dropped back into the single digits as preferred Prime Minister – down to 9 per cent, from 12 per cent last month.
He remained well behind Prime Minister John Key, who stayed steady on 70 per cent.
Among decided voters, the Labour Party also dropped three points to 33 per cent despite relatively strong approval of its new capital gains tax policy.
National increased its support slightly to 52, despite substantial opposition to its plans for partial sales of some state-owned enterprises, including among its own supporters….”
(cont..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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The extent to which politics has become a beauty pageant rather than a contest of ideas, even here, is frightening. This is an effect of unlimited TV advertisement and exposure and it favors the wealthy.
We do need a smarter way to do this.
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it’s not that b.j…
it is just that as a nation..we are viscerally ‘over’ goff…
he could be offering the winning lotto numbers in advance…
..and we would still ignore him…
i want those policies..
..i don’t care about him…
..he should go…
..labour cannot present a fresh face/policies with him leading them..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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and b.j..i think yr beauty-pageant analogy does the voters a disservice..
..with obama as one example…he was elected promising major policy changes..
..(that he was/is a republican manchurian-cabdidate only became apparent when he broke almost every promise he made…
..whereas here…before the election key promised he wouldn’t do all those usual nasty class-warfare tory things..
..promises he just as promptly as obama…broke…
..both different sides of the same coin..really…
..but both those elections were fought on policy-promises…
..but also here…much as most of america was ‘over’ the shrub…
..we were ‘over’ clark…
(and to continue to pretend that ‘over’-factor…won’t help labour win..)
…but a ‘beauty-contest’..?
..i think it is more complex than that…
(tho’..like clark..the prime minister key most emulates..is one of the ‘prettier’ ones…holyoake…
..but then again nobody else apart from clark/key has much time/regard for holyoake..
..and one of our most unlovely..yet most-respected prime ministers..was norm kirk..
..neither he..(nor lange..)..were oil-paintings..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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http://whoar.co.nz/2011/debunking-the-myth-of-a-link-between-marijuana-and-mental-illness/
“…Despite media claims that marijuana can cause psychosis or schizophrenia -
- there’s no science to back it up.
Prohibitionists have a long history of exploiting tragedy to further their own drug war agenda.
Case in point: Members of Congress in the 1980s seized upon the overdose of basketball star Len Bias to enact sweeping legislative changes establishing mandatory minimum sentencing in drug crimes, random workplace drug testing for public employees, and the creation of the Drug Czar’s office.
So it was hardly surprising to see anti-drug zealots return to this tried-and-true playbook in the days immediately following the shooting this past January of Arizona Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords and 18 civilians.
Only hours after alleged shooter Jared Lee Loughner was taken into custody, pundits on the political far right opined that the 22-year-old former pot smoker had been driven mad by weed.
For example, less than 24-hours after the shooting former George W. Bush speech-writer David Frum posed the question, “Did pot trigger the Giffords shooting?” to which the longtime conservative commentator answered, “Increasingly, experts seem to be saying ‘yes.’”
Frum’s accusation appeared to gain a modicum of respectability one month later when the mainstream media highlighted a report in The Archives of General Psychiatry that purported to have linked marijuana use with psychosis.
“It is increasingly clear that marijuana is a cause of schizophrenia,” the study’s lead researcher, Matthew Large of Prince of Wales Hospital in New South Wales, Australia, told the online publication Web MD in February.
(In a separate interview he said he was “horrified” by suggestions that the plant should be legalized and regulated.)
Large further insisted, “[T]he schizophrenia caused by cannabis starts earlier than schizophrenia with other causes.”
Or not…”
(cont…)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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(current rightwing commentary on the norwegian massacre..)
“..Oswald Bastable says:
July 28, 2011 at 6:19 pm
One can start to sympathize with shooting snot-nosed loud-mouthed socialist oiks…
Reply
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KG says:
July 28, 2011 at 6:23 pm
One can.
Reply …”
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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@Roman & bjchip:
The Spencer paper has been rebutted over at RealClimate:
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keith locke..and other left/green supporters of the overthrow of gadaffi really need to watch this video..
http://whoar.co.nz/2011/why-gaddafi-must-die-%C2%A0and-why-obama-is-martin-luther-kings-nightmare-video/
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Phil says ““…Despite media claims that marijuana can cause psychosis or schizophrenia -
- there’s no science to back it up.”
Actually there’s lots of science to back it up.
You’ve obviously part of the cult decribed by the Portuguese study which found a small part of society who were in total denial about the risks
of cannabis and always defended it 100% no matter what.
Even respected environmentallist David Suzuki has a documentary on this in his series The Nature of Things with David Suzuki : The Downside of High
http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/natureofthings/2010/downsideofhigh/
They found a 400% increase in schizophrenia (which matches several other studies – see below)
The University of Otago long term study found the same thing – a causal link beteeen cannabis use and mental sidsorders.
From the Royal College fo Psychiatrists –
“Depression.
A study following 1600 Australian school-children, aged 14 to 15 for seven years, found that while children who use cannabis regularly have a significantly higher risk of depression, the opposite was not the case – children who already suffered from depression were not more likely than anyone else to use cannabis. However, adolescents who used cannabis daily were five times more likely to develop depression and anxiety in later life.”
Schizophrenia
Three major studies followed large numbers of people over several years, and showed that those people who use cannabis have a higher than average risk of developing schizophrenia. If you start smoking it before the age of 15, you are 4 times more likely to develop a psychotic disorder by the time you are 26.”
“25% of cannabis users faces a tenfold higher risk of mental illness” see
http://www.schizophrenia.com/sznews/archives/001351.html
“Another Study Ties Marijuana to Schizophrenia Onset”
http://www.schizophrenia.com/sznews/archives/000330.html
And if you read this there’s a link to THIRTY other studies that show the same thing – that’s THIRTY.
You’d have to be off your tree to think “there’s no science to back it up”.
It’s more of a matter of beleiving what suits you, DESPITE the evidence, just like climate change denyers.
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um..!..i actually did not ‘say’ that…
..have you encountered speech marks before…?
and you obviously did not read the link..
‘cos if you had…
..you would know what a pile of selective-quoting/agenda-driven horseshit it is you present…
..ever thought of focussing on the depression/mental-ills engendered by that known depressant..alcohol..?
hic..!…what’s yr poison…?
..my shout..!
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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the total rebuttal of the schitzophrenia-claiming hysterics/prohibitionists..
..is the fact…that the percentage of the population in america suffering from mental illness has stayed approx the same…
…since the years before the widespread uptake/use of cannabis in that country..
..and have not seen the ’400%’increase claimed by our current resident hysteric/prohibitionist…
..i wonder why he dosen’t go and read the conclusions of the law commission here in new zealand..
..and their recommendations..
..fresh..from here..and totally relevant/reliable…
..and of course there is heaps of prohibitionist lies/propaganda out there…
..enough to quote from from now to forever..
..but that dosen’t make it any the less hysterical/agenda-driven prohibitionist bullshit…
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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phil – when you decribe evidence from highly respected scientists as “agenda-driven horseshit”, not because it’s bad evidence, but simply because it doesn’t match your opinion, you very obviously label yourself as a dope-cult denialist, just like the Portuguese describe.
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Well, this is no surprise. It is clear who benefited from the last round of recession in the real economy and helping handouts to the wealthy.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/corporate-profits-share-of-pie-most-in-60-years-2011-07-29
BJ
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“…dope-cult denialist..”…eh..?
i quite like that…
(as a genre-example of prohibitionist-purple-prose..it has its’ ha!-factor)
..i might put it on a t-shirt…
say it loud…and say it proud..!
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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did you read the link i gave you…?
and..how many days a week do you drink…?
an after-work stress-release one..most nights..?
..wine with dinner..?
and then on special occaisons/weekends..?
..you do know that alcohol is highly-addictive eh..?
would you like me to link you to photos of medical outcomes from lives of alcohol..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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you wouldn’t be a piss-head-cult-denialist…there..would you…?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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With 20% of primary schools deliberately breaking the law and at least double that having been bullied into submission, the cracks are now too big to ignore and something has to go!
http://localbodies-bsprout.blogspot.com/2011/07/20-of-schools-break-law.html
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How typical that photonz1 the natianal troll should be going on about cannabis …….
Its because he’s dishonest and drawing attention away from the biggest cause of ‘drug psychosis’ which is caused by the booze.
I saw a lot of this ‘alcohol maddness ‘ in Wellington last night ….
It looked like the police were kept very busy because of it ….
The sort of people who are happy to make cannabis users criminals dont know the meaning of the word justice.
Cannabis compared to Alcohol is like Acne compared to Melanoma.
Only the true assholes or ignorant would support the perversion of justice which are our Cannabis laws .
And the Nats who are corrupted by the pushers of the drug booze use Cannabis users as whipping boys in their pretend ‘tough on drugs’ spin.
They and PhotoNZ1 are dishonest and malevolent.
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Leading to the following:
http://www.investinganswers.com/a/19-reasons-why-another-great-depression-likely-next-12-months-2916?utm_source=onewsj&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=ia-os-0711
The USA is going down, and soon. Debt ceiling agreement or not.
BJ
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isn’t tony blair also starting to look more and more like monty burns…?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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experts expounding on q&a about our shocking child treatment statistics..
..not once are the outcomes of the disease of poverty aired/entertained..
..the british ‘expert’ is also wondering out loud why britain also does so badly in their child-stats..
..compared to the scandanavian countries..
..(where..surprise..!..surprise..!..their social nets/guaranteed-incomes guard/protect against that disease of child-poverty…
..why is is so hard for them to join those two dots..?
..everything else is just an exercise in auto-eroticism..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Our natural ecosystems provide us with important services and the Royal Society of New Zealand wants these recognized in economic decision making. They are organising a workshop to further progress this idea and i think they deserve support.
http://localbodies-bsprout.blogspot.com/2011/07/valuing-our-ecosystem-services.html
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nznative says “Its because he’s dishonest and drawing attention away from the biggest cause of ‘drug psychosis’ which is caused by the booze.”
Look who is being dishonest. You make up a false position that I’ve never stated, then tell me it’s what I’m trying to do.
I’m all for limiting alcohol abuse by tightening laws, upping tax levels, social campaigns, increasing policing, and I’ve stated all that previously.
So for you to lie about my position, then tell me I’m being dioshonest, is a laugh – you’re guilty of extreme hypocracy.
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hippocratic outh – swear word used by a hippopotomus – English language police.
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Outh – young person who doesn’t question anything.
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In response to Roman…
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2011/07/misdiagnosis-of-surface-temperature-feedback/
http://www.livescience.com/15293-climate-change-cloud-cover.html
Basically wrong, Spencer is again playing a game that is not at all directed at improving our knowledge.
BJ
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‘outh’ is another name for young rightwingers..(c.f…act on campus..)
it’s ‘cos they have no ‘y’-chromosone…eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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while animals make sounds they cannot place their hoof on a book and swear a legitimate oath … so we see them as oafs who cannot find spellcheck.
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phil says “experts expounding on q&a about our shocking child treatment statistics..
..not once are the outcomes of the disease of poverty aired/entertained.”
..why is is so hard for them to join those two dots..?
They’re already joined – the factors associated with child abuse are well known, and have been for a long time.
Poverty it’s just one of a number of factors – often the first listed is drug use (funny you didn’t complain that drug use wasn’t mentioned).
Other major known factors include low maternal age, low education, single parents, step parents, alcohol abuse and family breakdown.
But these are all only factors – a lot of poor people do a fantastic job bringing up their children.
It’s more about priorities. Do your kids come first, or is the priority the pub, booze, drugs, etc.
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@Roman
It is… suspicious that Spencer has published his paper in a journal for geographers, i.e. many of the readers and contributors to the Remote Sensing journal have ties to the oil and coal industries.
Trevor.
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“..often the first listed is drug use (funny you didn’t complain that drug use wasn’t mentioned)…”
i just assumed that everyone already knew that alcohol is a main driver of family violence…
..they are in many ways tho’…different issues…
and i repeat my question from before..
..how did we end our problems with poverty amongst the elderly..?
..didn’t we do it by giving them a guaranteed income…?
..dosen’t everyone of those countries that score so well where we score so bad..
..don’t they have policies that guarantee no poverty..?
..isn’t this what a civilised society should be striving for..?
..how many times do the horses need to be led to the water…?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Exactly – its no surprise,. and its a taste of things to come.
Business has changed since the last golden age; businesses don’t need anything like as many people as they once did, and the people they need are the very best and brightest, and the people who sweep the carpets. The entire middle strata is vanishing. The big chunk of that well know bell curve. Some folks aren’t needed because of organic change in business, and more through outsourcing to low labour cost economies.
So business (and thus – rightfully – business owners) are doing well, and people, well, aren’t.
We – the world – need to work out how society should operate in a situation where there is no work for half the people. We need to disassociate work from being the centre of people’s psyche.
Being sulky at those who are doing well is not in any way the answer to the problem. It’s a very Kiwi (and socialist, for that matter) response though, knocking those whose heads are above the others.
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db -
again, I find you doing a ‘shrug, so what?’ as you blithely consign half of our society to a jobless future – and make apologies for policy that neither acknowledges societal change, nor quits ‘bene-bashing’ those who with the best will in the world can’t find employment.
As you so rightly say, business and corporate structures have changed to require less of the middle-class jobs – but also less of those working class ‘cleaner-type’ positions, too – pay is so low that getting one employee to do a 16 hour shift is not just easy, it’s a neccessity for those who live on these kinds of wages – but that’s not 16 hours for one contract, oh no, it’s 3 jobs cobbled together with different contractors, doing the same work in various buildings, so that the business doesn’t have to pay sick leave, holiday pay or any other perks of ‘normal employment’ to their staff.
Gee, I hope your highly trained and ‘important’ workers get used to the idea that they may be cleaning the toilets themselves soon, ‘cos you can’t keep flogging a starving horse forever, it will quit on you.
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And then perhaps you can explain where ‘bene-bashing’ comes from?
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There goes photoNZ1 being dishonest again ……
The biggest driver of child abuse is ‘drug abuse’ ……. and that drug 9 times out of 10 will be the booze.
To list drug abuse seperate from the abuse of the drug alcohol is pure natianal party bullshit.
A statement which first of all seperates the biggest drug of abuse ‘alcohol’ from the others is either dishonest ……… or stupid.
In the case of the Natianal party its deliberate and dishonest.
And it damages New Zealand and New Zealanders in many ways.
The police were recently revealed as ignoring HUNDREDS of child abuse victims.
And yet the police with the blessing of the Natianal party still find the time to arrest and criminalize thousands of cannabis users each year.
The sort of people who support the persecution of cannabis users are of the same type who in the past put people onto railway wagons and sent them to ‘camps’ …….. the paper work was in order and it was ‘ the law’.
The law often gets perverted away from justice by bad leaders.
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Katie
This is something I have pointed out as well. It is a “deep” problem, one which does not get solved by putting people on benefits… indeed, it basically points up a complete failure of the basic economic system.
It isn’t necessary for everyone to work to produce everything that we
want to consume… has not been for some time.
This demands an entirely different model of civilization from the way that we are currently organized.
Can’t fix it by doing beneficiary vs worker tradeoffs. Have to find another way of THINKING about our society… and it is not easy… nor was DBuckley being casual about it… just looking at the problem in a wholly different and much more comprehensive way… which rather bypasses the whole class warfare thing.
Whether we can find an answer to it I do not know.
respectfully
BJ
BJ
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One factor is internationalisation of the economy that results in greater return to capital and a lower return to labour and those unemployed as a result, somehow there needs to be the means to distribute the gains to capital back to government (a CGT is just part of this). The only answer the right have is punitive measures against those on welfare so the unemployed have an incentive to look for work and lower wage levels so new service sector jobs (catering to those who still have employment) are created.
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db-
That is what I was responding to – which in substance is equal to what is being said by those who are repudiating the unemployed, as ‘unnecessary workers’ in our current economic climate – if you choose to use the same words as National party PR hacks are spinning policy with, you will get the same response that those hacks get for telling lies about their approach to unemployment.
“Blaming the workers” is not a valid response, when opportunities to re-skill are being removed ad hoc at tertiary institutions all over the country; saying that workers whose jobs have been cut out from underneath them by incompetent management are not smart enough to re-skill is just lying.
This is the rhetoric that the government is flinging into it’s justifications of low-wage, no-skill employment, vs sending skilled workers overseas to Australia, where somehow wages have kept pace with the CPI, and the ‘tax cuts for the rich’ program has not sent public sector jobs bowling into the rubbish heap of unemployment.
The difference is ideology – in 2008, the Nat’s came in denying there was a continuing Recession, planning policy around an expected upturn ‘just around the corner’, and slashing spending and jobs at a time when the economy needed the opposite – an injection of government spending. Just as the tory politicians did here in the aftermath of the Great Wall St Crash of 1929, they are fiddling while the city burns.
Only a change of Government will bring about the ideological shift needed to address the levels of unemployment, which have increased in double-digit percentages since National took power, never mind looking after the basics of public health and education provision.
Fraud on a huge scale has been perpetrated by Hanover Finance, and their associates in the property speculation field, instrumental in the collapse of South Canterbury Finance. The unbridled greed of these companies’ directors has been exposed in Court, yet any change to stop other companies from exploiting the same loopholes is not forthcoming.
Instead, there is a looming housing collapse due to finish up costing some small investors their retirement incomes, and possibly even their family homes, as has happened before in 1992 when MARAC Corporation collapsed.
Then there is the cost of the Canterbury earthquakes to cover, which appears to have been a known fact to geologists up to 35 years ago, but was suppressed to the public to preserve housing values in Christchurch. The CERA is a dictator’s toy being wielded by Gerry Brownlee to prevent the squatocracy of the South Island from losing too much investment income as areas of the city get cleared and zoned uninhabitable. Ordinary home-owners are the least of CERA’s concern, with business property owners coming next after the major landlords.
It all smacks of corruption and cronyism, and seems rotten to the core even to die-hard Christchurch residents, many of whom are journalists publishing regular columns in daily papers, or weeklies like the Listener – worth going for a look to see how the understanding of the mess they’re in slowly unravels in print.
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there is also the not small matter of personal greed…
..and any redistribution of income..to ease inequalities..
..must be legislated…must be a form of class-warfare..
what brought that sharply into focus was the question paul holmes asked a room-full of multi-millionaires..namely:..how many of them supported the concept of a capital gains tax..
..now these are people with money oozing from every orifice…
..the richest of the rich…
..and any suggestion that they should get any less than 100% of the profits they regularly make…
..and pay (just) 15% of that profit in tax..
..(leaving them 85% of that profit to bathe in/console themselves with..)
..was met with a universal ‘no!’..
..altruistic they ain’t…
..fucken greedy bastards they are..to a man/woman..
..and any income redistribution will have to be snatched from their clawing/grasping hands…
..and over their cries of victimhood…
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Katy – much better.
Lest start with politics. The current mob have absolutely no idea what to do to improve New Zealand’s lot, and so they are falling back to ideology and are going to flog off the state silverware (hell – our silverware that we’ve paid for through our graft) and/or dig up or pump out parts of our country and flog that off. Both of these approaches have the huge drawback that they are non-sustainable, so they cant do it again when we are in the same hole some years down the road. But in the short term they generate real new revenue.
The other lot have absolutely no idea what to do to improve New Zealand’s lot, and so they are falling back to ideology, and are going to raise taxes. But that isn’t sustainable either (what do you do when taxes reach 100%), and is not actually beneficial to New Zealand, because there is no more money there (and good arguments to say there will ultimately be less), just redistributing the money New Zealand already has, so some New Zealanders may benefit but to the detriment of others, and, most importantly, there is no improvement in the overall economic position, just the same economic position spread around differently. Unless you’re a socialist that is willing to prioritize pseudo-equality over overall position, that isn’t an acceptable outcome either.
So neither of the major parties has a clue what to do, and thus changing government wont actually improve New Zealand’s lot. It’s just one set of bad options being exchanged for another. The blue mob’s terrible plan is the less bad in the short term, but really terrible on the long term. The red mob have no plan.
This is worse than the last election; last time round I looked at what the various parties were proposing, and their history, and voted for the only party that didn’t have anything bad on its todo list. That was the Bill and Ben party. That’s how deep a hole we are in, and so far, the guys aren’t looking like they are standing this time round, so I will really be stuck.
Workers – I’m not deliberately using anyone’s terminology other than my own, but the simple fact is that we (New Zealand, and many other countries) need less workers than we once did. This isn’t “blaming the workers”, its blaming (if blaming is the right word) progress. Things change.
Progress making entire groups of workers unnecessary is not a new concept, famously staring with the Luddites. What progress has done is replace more and more groups of workers with (generally) machines. Henry Ford employed a lot of people to make cars, today every car maker only “uses” people where they can do a more cost effective job than a robot. Subway only employs sandwich artists to make subs because its cheaper than a robot.
People are full of bell curves. Look at intelligence, strength, any such attributes. There’s some at one end or the other (weak, strong, “bright”), and most people are in the middle, of “average” strength, intelligence, and capability. It used to be that most of the jobs available needed average people. But the march of progress is eating into this average pool of jobs, so we have more average people, and less jobs for average people, and more so every year.
Thus the inescapable facts are that the population is growing, and the average people’s job pool is growing less quickly. So the issues we face today will only get worse with time, there will be a bigger gap between the availability of average jobs, and the supply of average workers to fill them.
(Sidenote: Because of this oversupply of labour there is (law of supply and demand) downward pressure on wages, which is bad in a world that is predicated on growth (sorry BJ!) and thus we absolutely need a minimum wage. And as I keep saying, I’d raise it frequently and aggressively, which would actually put more people out of work, but is a necessary step to getting to where we need to be)
Back to politics: As noted in the “Politics” section above, neither government option has a clue what to do, and its not because they are stupid, but they cant find a way to say to the people that being jobless is becoming more likely.
(Sidenote: this is the same as peak oil. How do you tell the populace that the reducing availability of cheap petrol over the next few decades is going to radically alter their lifestyle, or their cost structure? These things are much easier to discuss when you’re not an elected representative)
Continuing, both major parties are hidebound by ideology. Red has historically had workers at its heart and reason for existence, so to back away and say “sorry workers, its over now” is ideologically unacceptable to them and their supporters. Blue, on the other hand, can hardly say, “Ok, we’re done with the bene bashing, its now OK to (I’m borrowing terminology here) be a bludger”
So once again, neither blue nor red have the answer. And the colours (sorry, colors) may be the other way round in the good ‘ole USA, but the issues, problems and difficulties over there are identical.
We live in a changing world, and there isn’t the change occuring that is needed to match it.
Hannover et al – again, these are just relatively insignificant sideshows, whilst the big probems remain unaddressed.
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