Norway massacre: Key points finger in wrong direction

I almost fell of my chair when I heard John Key use the Norway massacre to justify New Zealand’s military involvement in Afghanistan.

He said the killings were part of global terrorism and why New Zealand is in Afghanistan “trying to make the world a safer place.”

The problem is that right-wingers like Anders Breivik generally back the war – and Norway’s involvement.

The Anders Breiviks of this world have cheered on the anti-Muslim dimension of the “war on terror” including the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

While we can’t accuse John Key of being anti-Muslim the reality is that he’s been part of a “war on terror” which has stirred up anti-Muslim sentiment in western nations.

There is some evidence that Anders Breivik was one who became infected with this anti-Muslim sentiment, and that it motivated him to slaughter “soft-on-Muslim” Labour activists.

Some young Norwegian Labour activists may have looked at “terrorism” in a way which seriously challenged Breivik’s mindset. They might have thought we should focus on addressing the poverty and injustice that breeds terrorism in Islamic nations – rather than go to war and trample on people’s right.

If Breivik’s rampage is a part of “global terrorism”, it is more in sync with the terrorism being exercised by the American state with its bombers, drones and its prison camp at Guantanamo prison, than the terrorism of Islamic extremists.

94 thoughts on “Norway massacre: Key points finger in wrong direction

  1. I guess when you’re meeting with the President and have to justify involvement in an unpopular war that’s going down the tubes, you’ll clutch at any old straw and truth be damned.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 18 Thumb down 12 (+6)

  2. Seeing John Key sitting there alongside Obama waiting to make comment and then make comment, I couldn’t help but think of that footage of Bush getting the 9/11 message while reading the children’s book.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 11 (-2)

  3. He said the killings were part of global terrorism and why New Zealand is in Afghanistan “trying to make the world a safer place.”

    Was this based on a post at The Standard? What Brad H said.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 3 (+5)

  4. @StephenR,

    I think you’ll find that PR from the Nat Government wooshed around pronto after the Obama audience – which occurred before Norwegian Police arrested the gunman on the island near Oslo.

    Since then, I’ve discovered that stuff.co.nz and some other sites have taken the original posts quoting the PR down, removing the highly stupid statements from public view.

    FWIW, Key seems to have been influenced by US media reporting the explosion in Olso CBD as a ‘terrorist attack’ without any foundational evidence to do so. Those media statements showed up on the BBC website within 2 hours of the event, but were quickly debunked by BBC journalists using in-country sources & reporting PR from Norwegian Police.

    If the BBC can be that accurate, who’s advising JK while he’s overseas? Little green fairies? Better to keep off the ‘society sauce’ and exercise some diplomatic prudence, eh?

    Time to vote for a change, indeed… ;-)

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 8 (+2)

  5. Clearly you’ve misunderstood this whole thing yourself. This has NOTHING to do with the war on muslim nations, it’s to do with muslim immigration into western countries – a completely different but serious issue – of which you have chosen to completely ignore in this blog post.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 5 (+3)

  6. gee jarius..and there was me thinking it was all about a rightwing christian nutjob deciding to play god..

    ..(his local equivalent can be found in the comment-sections at kiwiblog/gotcha..

    ..and other local rightwing cess-pits…

    ..there violent fantasies against ‘lefties’ are a regular group-enthusiasim..

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 5 (+2)

  7. I think Shon-Key is trying to perpetuate the line that every violent act is somehow connected to the ‘War on TERROR’ (he would have been a great mate of G.W.)
    The next thing to watchout for, is the ‘gone by lunchtime’ message for the anti-nuclear stance, made by his mate (Dr. Brash)? watch this space..
    Do we really want to join the ‘coalition of the willing’ & get involved in every ‘action’ against ‘global terror’ ? I for one say we should stick to our own regional issues & leave this to the Norwegians & Iraq to the Iragis etc. etc. Kia-ora

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 7 (-1)

  8. As it was “not an act of global terrorism” but an act of someone paranoid about international change impacting at the local level (migration by those not European or Christian into a mono-cultural country) does the action then lead John Key to adopt Don Brash’s domestic policy, end support for free trade, cut back taking in refugees and and restrict access to foreign students and skilled migrants or use the SIS and police to surveillance those who advocate these policies – (oh wait the SIS is already interested in those who oppose free trade, many Maori activists – so all he can add are those Pakeha who oppose Treaty settlements and those opposed to our taking in refugees and skilled migrants).

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 7 (-4)

  9. I applaud Keith for picking up on and unpacking the spectacle of our PM being hoist by his own chronic political glibness. The shock of such a disaster will shine its spotlight on things like our PM’s moment on the world stage with the American President. This shock can also stop the world for a moment of reflection.

    This is not a time for politics-as-usual.This is a time for the world to let Norway know how we grieve with them. To let them know how much we love them. And – beneath the headlines – how much we share their predicament.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 5 (-1)

  10. Given someone is touchy about my previous comment (wants to show how contempt for the PM’s logic has to be seen as unpopular) … I will expand on my point.

    Given the PM said that if the act was one of Islamist terrorism then it justified a collective security response, then as it was an act of intolerance by a European race Christian for association with foreigners, what then is an appropriate response in the real circumstance.

    How can we find security from those paranoid about international change impacting at the local level (migration by those not European or Christian into a mono-cultural country) …

    Does John Key appease these people by adopting Don Brash’s domestic policy, end support for free trade, cut back taking in refugees and and restrict access to foreign students and skilled migrants or confront them and use the SIS and police to surveillance those who advocate these policies – (oh wait the SIS is already interested in those who oppose free trade, many Maori activists – so all he can add are those Pakeha who oppose Treaty settlements and those opposed to our taking in refugees and skilled migrants).

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 6 (-3)

  11. Has the PM got his party flunkies running damage control on this issue?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 5 (-3)

  12. Is the thumbs down the new way to censor posts critical of the PM? Until there is some attempt to debate the points made rather than pose it as unpopular to protect the PM, maybe I should simply repost it.

    Given the PM said that if the act was one of Islamist terrorism then it justified a collective security response, then as it was an act of intolerance by a European race Christian for association with foreigners, what then is an appropriate response in the real circumstance?

    How can we find security from those paranoid about international change impacting at the local level (migration by those not European or Christian)

    Does John Key appease these people by adopting Don Brash’s domestic policy, end support for free trade, cut back taking in refugees and and restrict access to foreign students and skilled migrants or confront them and use the SIS and police to surveillance those who advocate these policies – (oh wait the SIS is already interested in those who oppose free trade, many Maori activists – so all he can add are those Pakeha who oppose Treaty settlements and those opposed to our taking in refugees and skilled migrants).

    The question is, now that John Key knows what the real reason for the attack is, what has he got to say about collective security now?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 7 (-4)

  13. Now that the situation is totally different to that imagined in Washington by some, the right are no longer interested in the politics of this and want it to go away …

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  14. SPC – your posts here have been right on the button. Your statement at 11:39 is the perfect summation of the situation. I have been ‘engaged’ on two right wing blogs, trying to elicit some discussion around the right-winger kills left-wing youths story that I see being important to debate but the furious disengagement and refusal to even allude to that aspect of the tragedy has disheartened me greatly. It, seemingly, must not be spoken of. They are more than happy to discuss guns or the appalling slight John Key suffered when criticised for his Afghanistan statement but not one word on the left/right aspects of the tragedy. And don’t even mention the killers expressed religion. I did and was vilified.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 3 (+1)

  15. Robert,

    I dont see it at all as a right winger killing left wingers. That is far to simplistic an attitude.

    The killer is not a right winger but a nationalist. One can just as easily be a left winger and a nationalist (Venezuela comes to mind as does Cuba).

    Problem is one of intergration (or lack of) by immigrants since the creation of the EU (actually before that but certainly more pronounced since).

    I guess the indigenous peoples of the European countries feel much like the Maori do in New Zealand.

    Even here in New Zealand I hear many disparaging remarks from fellow Europeans about “zwarte mensen” and how their nations are being changed away from the indigenous nationalistic asperations.

    This is not confined to Northern Europe but stretches across Russia, down into the Balkans, and the South as well.

    I would say it goes actually far deeper then skin colour. Colour is the easist differential to concentrate on but the religious differences (especially seperate laws for one religion versus the countries norm) is the biggest divide that will eventually lead to larger terrorist action by both sides.

    This terrorist action will be directed at the state out of frustration.

    Such as the Oklahoma bombing or even locally at the ACC

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10740850

    The attack in Norway was on the state (because the state does nothing towards righting the perceived wrongs being carried out on the indigenous population) not a right versus left power struggle.

    The answer as mentioned by others is in respect. That respect has to go both ways but the overriding feeling (my interpretation) is that in Europe this is a one way street away from intergration and towards seperation and intolerance along religious grounds.

    And yes John Key made a blunder when initialy commenting on the attack.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 3 (+2)

  16. gerritt..he is a rightwing christian freemason….

    ..your claim he is not rightwing..is deeply self-delusional..

    fly…which rightwing blogs did you go to…?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 5 (-4)

  17. what puzzles me…is don’t we have anti-hate language laws in this country..?

    ..how is it that the commenters on sites like kiwiblog/gotcha/nzconservative..

    ..are allowed to dream/muse/advocate/call for/anticipate ‘killing leftie scum’..

    ..talking drooling gun-porn…over their weapons…

    ..the hosts of those sites never demur/censure/censor at these calls for the killing of ‘leftie-scum’…

    ..is all of that allowable by law…?

    ..do neither the actual speakers – nor the host of these websites – have any responsibility/accountability for authoring/hosting these advocates of ultimate-violence..?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 6 (-3)

  18. footnote to above:…

    the host of the site where these hate-mongering/violence-promoting nutjobs hang out/peddle their dark fantasies…david farrar..

    ..has just published an article…which given his welcoming/enabling of these hate/violence-peddling nutjobs….

    ..is eyewatering in the level of humbug on view..

    the headline:..

    “..Violent extremism should be stamped on early…”

    NZPA report:

    An Auckland man has avoided a jail term after hatching a plan to detonate a van full of explosives and nails outside an ACC branch office.

    farrars’ humbug-drenched opine:..

    “..I think the sentence was too light. When we look at what happened in Norway, we see the tragedy which can occur such propensity to violence is not taken seriously…”

    (this is the person who hosts/welcomes these violence-dreaming nutjobs..

    …and their verbalising of their dreams/desires to take their weapona..and kill some ‘leftie scum’…

    ..his fucken cant/hypocrisy is mind-numbing..)

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 7 (-5)

  19. given the events in norway:..should not at the very least the police track down these local advocates of ‘killing leftie scum’…

    ..and seize their caches of weapons…?

    ..and forbid them from holding gun licences..?

    ..shouldn’t that be done..at the very least…?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 2 (+2)

  20. Gerrit – that’s correct, there are greater depths to the Norwegian massacre than just right wing, left wing, but it’s patently obvious that the target of the gunman were leftwingers exclusively, and that he was overtly a right winger. The discussion around what that means globally is very important, in my opinion, yet it cannot be done on right wing blogs here in NZ, as I described, without attracting various discomforting reactions. Phil describes the threatening talk that results on Kiwiblog if the issue is raised. He is correct about their being an ugly undercurrent of ‘shoot lefties’ talk on Kiwiblog – it has always been the case, in my experience. I was subject to such threats from a commenter there who described the calibre of the rifle he planned to use and the position (high on a building) that he would take in order to shoot me. It’s not uncommon to read such comments there.
    Phil – the two right-wing blogs I am talking about are both Kiwiblog clones and copy their lead stories from Farrar (or Slater), ‘Keeping Stock’ and ‘Homepaddock’.
    The former, should you visit, will make you despair of Christian supporters of the National Government. Key adoration is the thread that binds the two blogs. Don’t get trapped there, like a mossie in amber!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 1 (+5)

  21. @ Robert..what was Farrar’s response to those murderous threats (if any, other than banning you, irony or what).

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  22. Robert,

    I stay away from reading to many blogs now, either left or right.

    The standard is no better then kiwiblog for hateful comments from the commentators. Nor is frogblog immune from the Todds or Mana party member 240 for hateful comments.

    Staying with the archdruid and working towards the post industrial age is my norm, with occasional forays here.

    Mana party member number 240,

    It is not in doubt that the gunman had delusional tendencies. I personally would not call them right wing or masonic as neither of those positions condone the violence that was carried out.

    My view remains that the attack was on the state as represented by the ruling left wing party in Norway. Had a right wing party been in power, the killings would still have occurred.

    With seven billion people on the planet, expect many more of these.

    Space will be the premium, resources the currency and might will be used to defend the perceived status quo.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 2 (+2)

  23. Gerrit – I recognise your position (staying away from reading too many blogs (I fell into that molassesy morass and am presently hauling myself out) and re-engaging with the Archdruid (see my two most recent posts @ robertguyton.blogspot.ect). The issue of the Norwegian killings I’ll leave to make its own way and instead, re-entering my garden, once my natural place in the world, and thrilling to the progress she has made in my absence. This morning I harvested anu and prepared a bed that sweeps up toward the house in an arc. I’ve wanted to convert the raspberry patch that rambled there into productive vegetable garden for years now but was too lazy to get started. Now it’s done! The soil, in the meantime, has improved out of sight – it was a pleasure to work. I ought to put you in contact with Nick and Adam. They are the Archdruid’s words personified, that is, they are ‘engineering’ in preparation for the post-abundance future, as I expect you are. They have built marvelous devices that convert muscle-power, through gears, levers and wheels, into agricultural tools that would delight you.
    Suz – I’m too disgusted with that strata of dialogue to discuss it any further, sorry.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 3 (-2)

  24. It’s a shame you don’t want to discuss those threats further Robert, as despicable as they are, and highly relevant to what we’ve witnessed in Norway..any lawyers out there? Will be querying my sister who works for Womens Refuge.

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  25. Seems the tragedy in Norway has only encouraged some of our homegrown ultra-rightists:

    Nevertheless, it was a great speech Lucia Maria. Full of righteous anger and truth.

    Besides which, there is now nothing short of armed insurrection that will stop our elected “representatives” from making things much worse anyway.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1 (+4)

  26. SPC says “Is the thumbs down the new way to censor posts critical of the PM?”

    I think your posts (and others) are getting thumbs down because it’s blatantly obvious that your top priority is a desperate need to use the tragedy as something to use to bash Key / the right.

    This is made even more obvious by your total lack of concern for the yet-to-be-buried victims – they’re not high enough on your radar to even get a mention.

    Dozens of innocent people have been murdered, and your top concern is attacking a comment of someone on the other side of the world who has nothing to do with Norway.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 5 (+1)

  27. Photonz, you are trying hard to paint people as cold uncaring people, but I think you have it wrong. I’m pretty sure a whole heap of kids died in Africa just now. And some more just then, when I thought of what to write next. Using your logic, which I don’t deny, we are all cold hearted bastards for talking about or doing anything other than trying to fix that problem. But, life goes on… this is a political blog.
    PS. Please don’t take my last line out of context

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 3 (-2)

  28. Fin – the very same thing happened following the Chch earthquake and the Pike River explosion – any discussion that questioned the Government was slated because ‘there were victims’. Whether they can see it or not, those using the argument seek to close down discussion by evoking an emotional argument to eclipse the factual. In my experience, commentators who feel at home at Kiwiblog etc. use this ploy, where those who feel uncomfortable there do not.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 4 (+2)

  29. Gerrit

    I guess the indigenous peoples of the European countries feel much like the Maori do in New Zealand.

    You’re so far off the mark there Gerrit, that I wonder if you’ve gone completely blind? Attributing what Breivik did to the Maori independence cause is disgusting! Not to mention that indigenous Europeans are far more accepting of multiculturalism than you seem to believe.

    The standard is no better then kiwiblog for hateful comments from the commentators. Nor is frogblog immune from the Todds or Mana party member 240 for hateful comments.

    I don’t recall inciting people to use violence against a fellow human being Gerrit, unlike what happens on Kiwibog on a regular occurrence. In fact I have mainly pointed out where New Zealand’s right wing are becoming even more extreme in their views.

    I think your argument that Breivik is not a right winger is weak at best. He’s one of your own and his rhetoric is identical in sentiment to that often seen from New Zealand’s RWNJ’s like Kyle Chapman and Cathy Odgers.

    The contradiction of enforcement against Maori like that seen in Operation 8 compared to any potential threat from white extremists is just as unacceptable as your insinuation that Maori hold similar views as the ones that led to 93 deaths in Norway.

    PS Did you ever go to a park to see how tough the unemployed Maoris are, or was that all hot air?

    phil u

    ..how is it that the commenters on sites like kiwiblog/gotcha/nzconservative are allowed to dream/muse/advocate/call for/anticipate ‘killing leftie scum’?

    There’s no proper body that administers New Zealand’s publication laws concerning blog sites. This is likely to change in the near future.

    …and their verbalising of their dreams/desires to take their weapona..and kill some ‘leftie scum’…

    Therein lies the problem. Farrar et al foments hate and courts danger by allowing RWNJ’s to openly express their hatred without any proper moderation. Such sites re-affirm bigotries that might normally remain dormant and therefore are contributing to the possible occurrence of right wing terrorism.

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  30. fin says “Photonz, you are trying hard to paint people as cold uncaring people,”

    No – they have done that all by themselves.

    I have no problem with people criticising Key for comments made.

    But when such a minor comments are made into a much bigger issue than the tradegy itself by the likes of Keith Locke and SPC – then I don’t have to do anything to make them look cold and uncaring.

    They achieve that themselves.

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  31. photonz

    The PM made the comment that “if” this was an Islamist terrorist attack then this justified the involvement of New Zealand in collective security actions including having our military in Afghanistan.

    As this was not the case and another scenario applied, asking the question of what security response is then appropriate, is not standard right/left politics but directly related to bi-partisanship on security.

    But given the right is fleeing from this debate, it seems they like the PM are/were only interested in servile butt kissing of the POTUSA and otherwise seeing security threats as only coming from internationalists opposed to western democracy (Islamists as the “neo-commies”) and their local fellow travellers. When this is, as events show, a simplistic view of the world.

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  32. SPC –

    Key said “If it is an act of global terrorism then I think what it shows is that no country, large or small, is immune from that risk,”

    It’s unbeleivable an unremarkable sentence from the PM is a much greater concern to you than dozens of innocent people being murdered.

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  33. So what? Why are such trivial comments more important to you than the Norway tragedy.

    “Afghanistan was invaded because the regime was hosting al Qaeda”

    That’s your own quote, SPC.

    I find your trivial point scoring demeaning to those in Norway.

    The least they deserve is intelligent debate on how to stop these tragedies happening – not cheap trivial point scoring.

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  34. Is it possible that photonz1 really believes that SPC has greater concern for Key’s statement than the murder of the Norwegian Labour Party youths?
    Let’s look at photonz1’s own words (emphasis mine)

    It’s unbeleivable an unremarkable sentence from the PM is a much greater concern to you than dozens of innocent people being murdered.”

    Nope. He doesn’t. He’s merely trolling.

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  35. “There was a shooting at a political camp, which sounds a little like, you know, the Hitler Youth or whatever. I mean, who does a camp for kids that’s all about politics? Disturbing.”

    Since when did they start giving computers to people who’ve had their frontal lobes removed?

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  36. Photonz, there is no dis-respect to the dead in expecting the PM to participate/show leadership in discussion about security in the aftermath. He was quite prepared to do so when this was based on the validating an existing international security co-operation against Islamist terrorism, but has gone silent since – now why is this? Is it because he is only a fast follower of the USA on these matters – cedes leadership on this to others?

    The POTUSA is of course probably unwilling to be seen as leading a European response to paranoia about Moslem immigration especially when the Vatican seeks a Christian identity to the EU in any constitution developed and opposes Turkish membership of the EU and also the domestic issue of white race group revivalism during his Presidency – he has an election next year. But this is no reason for the PM not to make some local response, at one level an expression in defence of the values of multi-cultural society as we are after all a nation of immigrants. At another a signal that international co-operation should include improved security from domestic threats from those intolerant of those of other identity groups.

    PS the idea that the security debate is off limits because there are victims to be respected is risible, imagine the response to that line after 9/11.

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  37. SPC says “Photonz, there is no dis-respect to the dead in expecting the PM to participate/show leadership in discussion about security in the aftermath.”

    You’re still doing it. Using any angle of the tragegy you can to try to score cheap policical points.

    If you want a discussion on Norways security, or our security, we can have that. Since when did we have to wait for this or any PM to have that discussion, or any other.

    It just seems that whatever you say, finding any angle to criticise the right – no matter how weak and trivial – is your prime concern.

    We should use the situation to have a discussion about security. Doing what we can to try to stop it happening again honours the victims.

    But contrary to what you say, I find using the tragedy to score cheap political points is disrespectful – even offensive.

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  38. photonz, you are the one exploiting the victims to shout down criticism of the political right. Essentially in turning on those pointing out the obvious, that the political right lost interest in the security dimensions of this issue as soon as the real facts emerged, there is an attempt to flee this debate.

    I have simply maintained this same point over and over – to keep the issue on track despite an unwillingness for a wider debate on the security issues. We should expect leaders to stand up for the values of a pluralistic and tolerant society. In that nations stand behind the values they share with Norway – that is also part of the common interest of nations that also work together in the war against terrorism. The security side of that debate involves co-operation in security management of the whole range of anti-migrant groups wherever there is any sign of this being a promotion of violent responses – just as there is with Islamist groups.

    I think the strategy you are adopting here has been called “black rain” -in this instance the claim that those supporting/defending a tolerant society are somehow being offensive – because for the right the issue of Western civilisation needing to co-operate in the face of a terrorist threat is consistent with the longer term security meme of NATO and ANZUS, whereas the idea of a domestic intolerance to foreigners becoming a security threat is destabilising to the western Christendom heritage chauvinism more common to the political right.

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  39. SPC says “photonz, you are the one exploiting the victims to shout down criticism of the political right. ”

    So your biggest criticism is not of a murderous gunman in Norway, but of a comment the NZ PM made in America when first told of the shooting.

    And your next biggest criticism is the PM hasn’t returned from overseas holiday to “lead the discussion” on how a nutter in Norway impacts on security in NZ.

    If that’s not using the deaths in Norway to score cheap political points, I don’t know what is.

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  40. The leader of an elected government is accountable for their performance to the people of that country, and the topic of this thread is the response of the PM to this issue. I realise that is the last thing you want to discuss, but that is the way it is.

    It was the PM himself who drew the link between the security of one nation and the collective security of nations and co-operation between them, that has to include defending the values held in common.

    It is the job of minor parties to hold the elected government to account for their performance. I realise you have difficulty with that and the issue – it’s the same for many on the right.

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  41. SPC – you should have a good hard look at yourself.

    You’ll use anything (in this case a massacre) to beat those you see as your enemies, for the most trivial of reasons.

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  42. They say when there is fear, there is a flight or fight response – here it’s impune those who raise the issue and flee from the issues raised.

    As for the idea of trivial nitpicking – just a debate on the terms set by the PM when he thought the issue was one that played well for the political right. And besides would not trivial asides/anti-Green point scoring sum up your method of debate on most issues raised on this blog?

    The leader of an elected government is accountable for their performance to the people of that country, and the topic of this thread is the response of the PM to this issue. It was the PM himself who drew the link between the security of one nation and the collective security of nations and co-operation between them, that has to include defending the values held in common. It is the job of minor parties to hold the elected government to account for their performance. I realise you have difficulty with that and the issue – it’s the same for many on the right.

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  43. SPC – your repeated attacks repeatedly prove my point.

    There’s been a terrible tragedy, and all you can think of is using it to attack something completely trivial.

    Then you expect people to believe that you are highly concerned about holding the govt to account over it’s handling of a massacre in Norway.

    Stop digging – you’re doing an Alisdair Thompson.

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  44. To state the obvious, this is a blog where the Green Party declare their positions on issues of the day and that includes holding the government to account.

    This topic is the response of the PM to the events in Norway, to tie it to international co-operation in matters of security. That the subsequent debate is no longer on the grounds the political right may have expected is no reason for it not to occur.

    The singular and desperate line you are taking indicates the weak position the right now finds itself on on a collective security issue – but that is no more reason not to have this debate than on occasions when the right relish it.

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  45. Photonz – I think you are obsessed with the rhetorical over the practical – and are using this to prevent any real discussion.

    I could write screeds of venom directed at that vicious right-wing scumbag Breivik, but what would that add to the debate?

    Sure, it’s arguable how much use a discussion of the New Zealand government’s response to this atrocity really is, but it’s certainly more useful than simply condemning actions that are condemned by anybody with half a brain or any remote feelings of humanity.

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  46. @Valis 4:49 PM

    Perhaps this is more to Glenn Beck’s liking?

    Tampa Liberty School – a summer camp for kids aged 8-12 years old

    The Tampa 912 Project is pleased to introduce the Tampa Liberty School. This part-time summer camp will meet from 9am to noon on July 11-15 at the Paideia School in Temple Terrace. Kids aged 8-12 years old will have fun while learning the principles of liberty, free markets, and limited government. They will also learn the values of personal responsibility, faith, courage, hard work, reverence and thrift.

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  47. Photonz said to SPC “You’ll use anything (in this case a massacre) to beat those you see as your enemies, for the most trivial of reasons”

    I believe SPC was refering to the PM’s comment re International war on terror. If you think the justification for said war is trivial, then I again think you’re wrong.

    Although I think you’re very good at what you do.

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  48. Keiths is right Key is pointing in the wrong direction he should have kept his mouth shut.

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  49. News reports from Norway indicate the motive was to attack the party in government (the PM’s offices and the Labour Party youth camp) for allowing immigration by Moslems, and local debate now includes questions about police performance in getting to the island.

    So if external Islamist terrorist action mobilises international security co-operation, does domestic terrorist action by those opposed to Moslem immigration do the same? The PM said if the action was another terorist act it justified the earlier security co-operation (including in Afganistan), so given the real circumstance is there going to be any government support for an international reaction to this new potential threat.

    While it would appear he adopts the fast follower position on foreign affairs and security matters, rather than taking a pro-active position, surely there is a case for an expression of solidarity with Norway from western democratic nations built on mutual tolerance, especially those with immigrant populations. One wonders what the briefings from Foreign Affairs and SIS will be in that regard.

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  50. SPC – “the political right lost interest in the security dimensions of this issue as soon as the real facts emerged”

    You are still right on the issue. Photo sounds whiney. It’s hard to know if he really can’t see past his own oft-repeated point, but it does seem to be the case.

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  51. The following is from a New York Times article/report.

    “The man accused of the killing spree in Norway was deeply influenced by a small group of American bloggers and writers who have warned for years about the threat from Islam, lacing his 1,500-page manifesto with quotations from them, as well as copying multiple passages from the tract of the Unabomber.

    In the document he posted online, Anders Behring Breivik, who is accused of bombing government buildings and killing scores of young people at a Labor Party camp, showed that he had closely followed the acrimonious American debate over Islam.

    His manifesto, which denounced Norwegian politicians as failing to defend the country from Islamic influence, quoted Robert Spencer, who operates the Jihad Watch Web site, 64 times, and cited other Western writers who shared his view that Muslim immigrants pose a grave danger to Western culture.

    More broadly, the mass killings in Norway, with their echo of the 1995 bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City by an antigovernment militant, have focused new attention around the world on the subculture of anti-Muslim bloggers and right-wing activists and renewed a debate over the focus of counterterrorism efforts.

    In the United States, critics have asserted that the intense spotlight on the threat from Islamic militants has unfairly vilified Muslim Americans while dangerously playing down the threat of attacks from other domestic radicals. The author of a 2009 Department of Homeland Security report on right-wing extremism withdrawn by the department after criticism from conservatives repeated on Sunday his claim that the department had tilted too heavily toward the threat from Islamic militants.

    The revelations about Mr. Breivik’s American influences exploded on the blogs over the weekend, putting Mr. Spencer and other self-described “counterjihad” activists on the defensive, as their critics suggested that their portrayal of Islam as a threat to the West indirectly fostered the crimes in Norway.

    Marc Sageman, a former C.I.A. officer and a consultant on terrorism, said it would be unfair to attribute Mr. Breivik’s violence to the writers who helped shape his world view. But at the same time, he said the counterjihad writers do argue that the fundamentalist Salafi branch of Islam “is the infrastructure from which Al Qaeda emerged. Well, they and their writings are the infrastructure from which Breivik emerged.”
    “This rhetoric,” he added, “is not cost-free.”

    Mr. Breivik’s declaration did not name Mr. Kaczynski or acknowledge the numerous passages copied from the Unabomber’s 1995 manifesto, in which the Norwegian substituted “multiculturalists” or “cultural Marxists” for Mr. Kaczynski’s “leftists” and made other small wording changes.

    Immigration from Muslim countries to Scandinavia and the rest of Europe has set off a deep political debate across the continent and strengthened a number of right-wing anti-immigrant parties.

    In the United States, the shootings resonated with years of debate at home over the proper focus of counterterrorism.

    John D. Cohen, principal deputy counterterrorism coordinator at the Department of Homeland Security, said Ms. Napolitano, who visited Oklahoma City last year for the 15th anniversary of the bombing there, had often spoken of the need to assess the risk of violence without regard to politics or religion.

    “What happened in Norway,” Mr. Cohen said, “is a dramatic reminder that in trying to prevent attacks, we cannot focus on a single ideology.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/25/us/25debate.html?_r=4&pagewanted=2&ref=global-home

    There is an interesting take on post modernism and multi-culturalism in a book revierw here.

    http://www.denisdutton.com/finkielkraut_review.htm

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  52. At a lunch in Auckland today Blair said “so called western values of democracy and freedom are in fact universal values, and we are seeing this take place through the (Arab) uprisings”.

    This is quite revealing, some claim the whole point of multi-culturalism was a repudiation of cultural supremacism, now here Blair is saying western democratic society is evolving into one based on “universal” (imperial/post nationalist) values by becoming multi-cultural (taking in migrants, this fits with the meme of a EU labour market) … says a lot.

    Especially in the light of the New York Times article above and this –
    an interesting take on post modernism and multi-culturalism in a book review here.

    http://www.denisdutton.com/finkielkraut_review.htm

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  53. Phil U, you smear our blog with the suggestion we support anything this madman has done. You also maintain we do not moderate comments – well, we do. You can’t see the deleted ones because they are deleted. Some receive commentary, others do not.

    We also debate people who have extreme points of view with reasonable politeness. I’m polite to you, for example.

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  54. which rightwing cess-pit are you from..there..zen tiger…?

    ..and a pot-smoking vegan is ‘extreme’..?

    i’d call rightwing nutters with guns..who dream/muse about slaughtering ‘leftie-scum’..

    ..as somewhat more ‘extreme’ than moi…eh..?

    the type of mouth-breathing knuckle-dragger that wallows in the slime at kiwiblog…eh..?

    and really zen..when people think ‘extremism’ these days…

    …it is you greed-driven/fuck-everyone-else/gun-nut rightwingers that come to mind..eh..?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  55. you should also check out the cartoon in this weeks’ listener..

    ..it clearly joins the dots of the dog-whistle rightwing politics of your type…

    ..(cf:..smearing sole-parents as just one example..?)

    ..with the events in norway…

    ..and how we all now look at you in a different manner..

    …much like one looks at a rabid dog….carefully…

    ..and at a distance…

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  56. here you are zen…you rightwing/christian hate-mongers are all to blame..

    http://whoar.co.nz/2011/meet-the-right-wing-hatemongers-who-inspired-the-norway-killer/

    “…Why were America’s Islamophobes able to avoid accountability for so long?

    Few political terrorists in recent history took as much care to articulate their ideological influences and political views as Anders Behring Breivik did.

    The right-wing Norwegian Islamophobe who murdered 76 children and adults in Oslo and at a government-run youth camp spent months, if not years, preparing his 1,500 page manifesto.

    Besides its length, one of the most remarkable aspects of the manifesto is the extent to which its European author quoted from the writings of figures from the American conservative movement.

    Though he referred heavily to his fellow Norwegian, the blogger Fjordman, it was Robert Spencer, the American Islamophobic pseudo-academic, who received the most references from Breivik — 55 in all.

    Then there was Daniel Pipes, the Muslim-bashing American neoconservative who earned 18 citations from the terrorist.

    Other American anti-Muslim characters appear prominently in the manifesto, including the extremist blogger Pam Geller, who operates an Islamophobic organization in partnership with Spencer.

    Breivik may have developed his destructive sensibility in the stark political environment of a European continent riveted by mass immigration from the Muslim world –

    – but his conceptualization of the changes he was witnessing reflect the influence of a cadre of far-right bloggers and activists from across the Atlantic Ocean.

    He not only mimicked their terminology and emulated their language, he substantially adopted their political worldview.

    The profound impact of the American right’s Islamophobic subculture on Breivik’s thinking raises a question that has not been adequately explored: Where is the American version of Breivik and why has he not struck yet? Or has he?

    Many of the American writers who influenced Breivik spent years churning out calls for the mass murder of Muslims, Palestinians and their left-wing Western supporters.

    But the sort of terrorism these US-based rightists incited for was not the style the Norwegian killer would eventually adopt.

    Instead of Breivik’s renegade free-booting, they preferred the “shock and awe” brand of state terror perfected by Western armies against the brown hordes threatening to impose Sharia law on the people in Peoria.

    This kind of violence provides a righteous satisfaction so powerful it can be experienced from thousands of miles away.

    And so most American Islamophobes simply sit back from the comfort of their homes and cheer as American and Israeli troops — and their remote-controlled aerial drones — leave a trail of charred bodies from Waziristan to Gaza City.

    Only a select group of able-bodied Islamophobes are willing to suit up in a uniform and rush to the front lines of the clash of civilizations.

    There, they have discovered that they can mow down Muslim non-combatants without much fear of legal consequences, and that when they return, they will be celebrated as the elite Crusader-warriors of the new Islamophobic right —

    – a few particularly violent figures have been rewarded with seats in Congress.

    Given the variety of culturally acceptable, officially approved outlets for venting violent anti-Muslim resentment – there is little reason for any American to follow in Breivik’s path of infamy…”

    (cont..)

    (and those rightwing american hate-mongers are all speaking for you/your lot/your ‘beliefs’..eh..?..

    ..you read/quote them…eh..?..)

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  57. and i reckon the person depicted in the listener cartoon..is farrar…

    ..how could it not be…?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  58. You have me confused with a stereotype Phil. That’s the kind of thinking that leads to bad places.

    The so called Christian nutter managed to massacre a lot of good people, some of (if not many) who would also describe themselves as Christian.

    Many people, hatemongers included, take and abuse the name “Christian” – and would not appear to take the Christian message seriously. Love others. Especially the ones you would prefer to hate.

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  59. It’s interesting that even after the madman responsible for the Norway massacre was identified as a RWNJ, we still had RWNJ’s in New Zealand preaching about doing violence. Take this comment by Oswald Bastable on TrueBlue for instance:

    Bradbury

    One of a select few that I wish I could have beaten to death with the butt of an SLR, back in ’81, when this was a real possibility…

    Now I’m no Einstein, but isn’t this hate speech?

    I don’t read your blog ZenTiger, so cannot determine whether you’re editing out any hate speech or not. Taring you with the same brush might not be correct, but it’s something that the right wing needs to remedy in other ways than attacking the left.

    I think phil u was commenting on right wing blog sites in general. Many of these can correctly be categorized as promoting hate speech and do not edit out abusive comments at all, no matter how repugnant they are. Many in fact instigate such abuse and therefore can be viewed as illegal under current law.

    This posses a difficult scenario for officials in terms of freedom of speech and upholding the law to curtail extremism. The default setting for instance of the Human Rights Commission is that prohibited grounds of discrimination as defined in the Human Rights Act does not breach the law, and therefore they fail to act to uphold their mandate in this area.

    It’s all down to the interpretation of the law by the relevant authorities. If organizations such as the Police and Human Rights Commission continue to ignore hate speech and its relevance in creating resentments that are often acted upon, we will see more hate speech and its destructive consequences.

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  60. “..The so called Christian..”

    yeah..that is the line being run by you lot..eh..?

    his manifesto has crosses on the cover…and is 1500 pages of rightwing christianity..

    and in my coverage of this massacre..

    ..i have a photo of him in full masonic-rig…

    ..who are you trying to kid..?

    …and seriously..which rightwing cess-pit is yrs…?

    and…”..Especially the ones you would prefer to hate…”

    i don’t ‘hate’ christians who aren’t rightwing nutjobs..

    ..and even those that are..i don’t ‘hate’..

    ..they are obviously demented..and wracked with self-loathing..

    …their ‘dirty-bits’ being only the start of it…

    ..and the right seems to have the monopoly on ‘hate’..about now..

    …eh..?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  61. but it’s something that the right wing needs to remedy in other ways than attacking the left.

    Elements of the left wing are quite comfortable with “Kill Sarah Palin” style attacks. It goes both ways. Fiery rhetoric and exaggeration can be found on both sides if one goes looking.

    Phil – just because some-one is a mason (barely Christian at that) doesn’t mean they represent all those members in their deeds.

    Let’s work out all the other things that drove this evil act:

    1. He is a male. All males are champing at the bit to massacre youth.
    2. He is Norwegian. Can’t trust those Norwegians.
    3. His father abandoned him at a young age. This is so typical of the children of single parent families.
    4. He once attended a vegan cooking course. That would drive anyone to the brink of evilness.

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  62. Zen Tiger. Your comments are usually quite reasonable. Here, you seek to divert focus from the Norwegian terrorists key drivers – his political and religious beliefs. Some clown elsewhere on a right-wing blog made great hay (in his own mind) of the political terrorists recent history as an organic farmer, his purpose being to try to make organic farmers here feel uncomfortable because of their ‘shared’ backgrounds. You are trying the same diversion here. Where you look so foolish is that there is no causality between those aspects of his make-up and his crime. He didn’t choose to murder left wingers specifically because was a man, an organic farmer, a Norwegian, or abandoned when he was young. He did so because he holds right-wing beliefs. His Christian belief too, are I believe, a significant factor in his hatred for those people who adhere to a different religion and that was the primary motive for his actions. Over here in New Zealand, right-wing bloggers, in particular those who also proclaim themselves Christian have steadfastly refused to consider those aspects of the case and have shushed down debate furiously in the hope that it will go away. You Zen Tiger at least have the spine to engage in the debate.

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  63. “…Phil – just because some-one is a mason (barely Christian at that) doesn’t mean they represent all those members in their deeds…”

    i never said it did..

    ..i am just reacting to yr/rightwing-christian attempts to try and divorce them/their beliefs/their teachings/their hatreds from this man and his actions…

    ..(particularly ironic when it is you/your lot who rush to tar every muslim with the actions of one/some of their fucktards…eh..?..

    ..how exactly does that work zen..?..can’t see it myself..eh..?..)

    ..and while one to always search for cheap laughs myself…this is no fucken joking-matter..eh..?

    ..you..and the beliefs/hatreds you represent..

    ..are pure fucken evil…eh..?

    ..and are what drive most of the miseries in this neo-lib-zombie country/culture..

    (this norway-massacre bringing clearly into focus the destination of yr hate-peddling..)

    ..yr ongoing campaigns against sole-parents/the unemployed..and yr relentless islamophobia are truly vile…

    and seriously…a pox on fucken all of you ..eh..?

    ..you are no better than the worst of the kiwiblog bottom-dwellers..

    ..it is just a matter of shade..

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  64. The whole issue comes down to intollerance of others to the point of hatred.

    And you don’t have to look very far to find examples of that here.

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  65. Greenfly, you have decided “he holds right wing beliefs” and that his manifesto is proof enough for you. Proof of what exactly?

    If its simply that any ideology taken to the extreme results in actions such as this, then you have a point.

    But that equally applies to the left, taken to the extreme we get Lenin and Stalin. But is Phil U another Stalin? Of course not.

    BTW, Phil, in spite of your accusations, I don’t go around advocating death to Muslims. If you can find a post of mine that confirms your accusations, please link to it.

    His Christian belief too, are I believe, a significant factor in his hatred for those people who adhere to a different religion and that was the primary motive for his actions. Over here in New Zealand, right-wing bloggers, in particular those who also proclaim themselves Christian have steadfastly refused to consider those aspects of the case and have shushed down debate furiously in the hope that it will go away.

    You should read our blog. There are several posts that consider this aspect.

    Breivik is being portrayed in the media as a Christian. In actuality, his manifesto seems to reflect a hodge podge of religions, ideologies and ideas. He is supposedly a Christian, yet a free mason, then in another section an Odinist. I wonder if he’s even stepped inside a Church in the last few years, let alone considered Jesus’ 2 new commandments.

    In his manifesto, for example, he advocates a one child policy and forced abortions in the developing world. This is not a Christian position, and its an idea found in sections of the left as well as right).

    Also, my comment about looking for reasons for his actions outside of his manifesto isn’t an unreasonable line of thought. Phil seems comfortable to blame a bunch of blogs and all of “us” right-wingers, but an absent parent couldn’t possibly have any sort of negative impact on a person’s formation? Then why did he mention it in his manifesto?

    .you..and the beliefs/hatreds you represent…are pure fucken evil…eh..?

    My fundamental belief is to try to love others. It’s to realise we are all capable of sin, and to therefore attempt to be forgiving and understanding. It’s to repent and seek forgiveness for my own sins, and to strive to become a better person. Those are pretty fundamental Christian beliefs.

    Why exactly do you think those are evil Phil?

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  66. “..BTW, Phil, in spite of your accusations, I don’t go around advocating death to Muslims..”

    but you do preach against islam..to you they are the enemy…

    ..(the mindset that sez it’s ok to be slaughtering muslims in these new crusades..eh..?..’evil’ enough for you..?)

    ..you consider that the only real parents of children are married christians..one male and one female..

    ..you advocate the forced-taking of those children from sole-parents…

    ..and the giving of them to willing/waiting christian families..

    ..(‘evil’ enough for you…?..bordering on fucken ‘sick’..?)

    you oppose abortion..yet once any child is born…(unless to yr christian-model)…they can just rot..eh..?

    ‘cos you oppose that ‘lefty’-notion of state/societal-support for those doing on their own..that you have shared help in doing/financing..eh..?

    ..plus you stigmatise those parents..talk against them and their work..

    (‘evil’ enough for you..?..)

    you/your religion celebrates/supports the slavery/torture/slaughter/eating of ‘gods’ other living creatures’..

    (‘evil’ enough for you..?..)

    you/your religion celebrates the consumption of the most dangerous drug..alcohol..

    ..and is quite happy to support prohibition-laws that see people criminalised/jailed for their involvement in/with the safest drug of all..cannabis..

    ..a drug that also heals..

    ..(‘evil’ enough for you…?..)

    ..and i cd devote a whole book to the evils done in third world countries in the name of yr beliefs…eh..?

    (..’evil’ enough for you..?..)

    ..when you have answered those…i have more…

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  67. u cd also answer the previously asked question….

    ..namely how you run from his christian-beliefs/associations with you..

    ..yet ..as i said before…you rush to blame all muslims for the actions of their fucktards..

    ..islamophobia is one of yr religious mantras…

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  68. Err, no Phil to all of the above. You really are off the mark.

    To answer your question: His so-called Christian beliefs bear little resemblance to mine (see above). And I don’t blame all Muslims for the actions of extremist fundamentalist Muslims who advocate terrorism and are keen to destroy the West. Just as I don’t blame the Norwegians for the sins of this particular extremist who used terrorism to justify his obscene actions.

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  69. ZenTiger

    Elements of the left wing are quite comfortable with “Kill Sarah Palin” style attacks.

    Really! Please link to something that makes you believe that? I did not go looking for Oswald Bastable’s comment on TrueBlue that he wanted to kill Bomber Bradbury, I happened upon it.

    Today I happened upon five similarly repugnant comments about Hone Harawira on a video I had uploaded to Youtube. I disabled the comment feature so that further racist comments are not able to be made.

    You might recall that a plethora of racist comments have been made on the Trademe advert that’s selling a car number plate with the word Maori on it. I challenge you to show a similar example where left wing comments come anywhere near that level of abuse?

    Yesterday I changed the comments feature on my blog so that anonymous comments could not be made because a number of right wing aligned people were making unacceptable and abusive comments. I’m considering making a complaint to the police.

    From my experience, I can categorically say that the more extreme, abusive and divisive comments are being made by the right wing. Such an observation has nothing to do with my personal preferences.

    It’s clear that there’s extremists on both sides of the fence. It’s the initial blame for the atrocity on Muslims and then denial by the right wing to the effect that they do not accept Breivik is a right wing christian fundamentalist that I think is being argued against here. So far you have failed to mount any proper argument that he should not be thus labelled and that his beliefs have led to his crimes.

    photonz1

    The whole issue comes down to intolerance of others to the point of hatred, and you don’t have to look very far to find examples of that here.

    It can work the other way around as well… sometimes peoples hate leads to them finding places to be intolerant. I think there’s far more intolerance of intolerance than outright intolerance itself here photonz1. Unless you’re describing yourself again?

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  70. Zen. You offer me a compromise with “If its simply that any ideology taken to the extreme results in actions such as this, then you have a point.” by which I take you to mean that if I agree that Left-wingers could do what this Right-winger has done, then we’ll agree that both sides are capable of dreadful things. Perhaps that is the case but here, we are discussing a particular individual and a particular act (series of acts) and I’m ascribing those to his ideology which he himself describes as Right-wing and Christian. You might argue that his actions do not result from those ideological ‘veins’, I don’t know. certainly other Right-wing blogs, especially those whose authors also claim to be Christian, endeavour to avoid addressing the charge, in my experience. The closing down of debate on those blogs has been remarkable. The seemingly conscious avoidance of the questions about the drivers behind the political terrorists actions on those blogs has reeked of hypocrisy and fear, denial and obfuscation to my way of thinking. I wonder if you’re able to sense my frustration here?

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  71. Hate to tell you this Zen, but there is a reason why absolutists on the right are more dangerous than extremists on the left.

    The left is less “sure” of anything than the right is. Think about that. Part of the criticism of the left, and it is not entirely without validity, is that we change our minds too often, are wishy-washy… and the reason that is, is that we doubt everything including ourselves to a degree. We don’t take an absolute position, there is no absolute right or wrong, morality is situational and so on. So it is really hard to get to the violent individual being so sure of his rectitude that he’ll go and murder 80 people he never met.

    The right wing extreme takes absolute positions. There are moral absolutes, there is no compromise with the devil… and the results are clear enough. Without self-doubt and the ability to question one’s own convictions and conclusions, the individual is capable of anything.

    Collectively the left can engage in “revolution” and this can result in murderous attacks as well, but the context is different, and it is a group activity, including the part where they convince themselves collectively that they must do something we later recognize as evil.

    So there are no similar left wing butchers out there. Not as individuals. The folks who kill, who go postal, aren’t from the left. I don’t recall ANY instance of individual mass murder from the left…

    So the two sides are not “equally” bad at their extremes.. because the left is not a place of absolutes.

    ciao
    BJ

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  72. I’m surprised you are unaware of the death threats against Palin, Jackal. Even though the media tend not to highlight the hypocrisy, I thought at least some of the more extreme examples were common knowledge.

    Malkin catalogued some of these attacks against Palin. Worth a look

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  73. Hate to tell you this Zen, but there is a reason why absolutists on the right are more dangerous than extremists on the left.

    So your theory is to be killed by a lone gunman is more dangerous than being killed by a mob?

    You do a neat trick of comparing “extremists” on the left with “absolutists” on the right and imply that extremists on the left are wishy-washy in their thinking. That’s ridiculous. We are speaking of extremists by definition. Or do you seek to subtly move the conversation to make us think that non-extremist lefties are self-questioning but the average right wing person is an absolutist, and therefore on the same par as Breivik? Again, ridiculous.

    There are moral absolutes, there is no compromise with the devil… and the results are clear enough. Without self-doubt and the ability to question one’s own convictions and conclusions, the individual is capable of anything.

    I disagree on the first part of your assertion. If people abided by moral absolutes: like it is wrong to murder, it is wrong to target civilians, it is wrong to lie, it is wrong to be necessarily rude to people etc we might do a lot better in life. Actually, living by the 10 commandments would be pretty reasonable.

    But people don’t do they? Left and right, they find reasons to kill, or to manipulate, or to abuse and then they justify it, or commit adultery, or engage in fraud etc, often thinking they are being rational.

    And so it happens on the left and right – extremely rare events of politically motivated mass murder aside.

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  74. is that the same palin who issued photos of her political opponents framed in the telescopic-sights of a rifle…?

    ..(just saying..!..)

    ..palin is in more danger from lawsuits from people who have ‘put something out’..

    ..laughing at her…

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  75. part of the reason for their absolutism is their inability to recognise the comedy of life…

    …and of course this is due to their s.o.h-byepass at birth…

    ..(that’s sense-of-humour there..jules..)

    ..the poor darlings are unable to see past the end of their self-interested noses…

    ..this is the true poverty in their sad lives…

    ..not just the craven materialism…

    ..but that bankruptcy of ideas…

    ..hence..absolutism..

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  76. yes, if Palin were assassinated, then this would most truly be a crime against comedy.

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  77. and of course such mono-absolutism leads the believer to that story about that ‘big-fella’ up there in the sky..

    ..with that big ledger…

    ..keeping track of all we do/think…

    ..and who upon death…

    ..will reward those who believe the story…

    ..of the big-fella up in the sky…

    ..with the ledger..

    (they also show submission to totems…which is a very strange/primitive concept..)

    and all in all..they seem to turn out as quite nasty/unforgiving/judgemental bigots..

    ..with barely supressed desires to do harm to opponents/disbelievers of their primitive-superstitions..

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  78. Here’s a good post on Liberty Scott that discusses this view that only the right are haters: Only we can stir up hatred and bigotry.

    We haven’t heard much since the event about the shooter’s motivations for gunning down the Democrat Congresswoman Giffords and several innocent bystanders.

    After the typical accusations it was all Palin’s fault and the Tea Party’s fault, the media went quiet looking into the motivations behind this apparent atheist who would not “Trust in God”, who was described by friends as liberal and left wing, who had the communist manifesto in his favourite book list, who had tagged a flag burning video as a favourite of his (a more typically left-wing activity) and who had had a run-in with Giffords back in 2007 after attending a Democrat function.

    So, a chance to consider that there may have been a left wing mass murderer, but at that point, rather than making the same kind of generalised accusations against Christians, a crazy left-wing extremist was responsible doesn’t fit the meme. Instead, the media settles for the term “extremist” when it cannot be a “right-wing extremist”.

    I see this kind of thing in the papers. When describing the group to review the terms of a NZ Constitution, we see descriptions of “far right” for a panel member and one who is merely “left” and not “far left”.

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  79. Solkta, you help me make my point. Mocking Palin with jokes about assassination are “just meant in fun”, but anything of the equivalent from the right are often characterized as “hate speech”.

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  80. Phil U, your generalisations about how bad it is all Christians make sweeping generalisations that result in them appearing hate filled and bigoted are noted. But careful, you are appearing hate filled and bigoted in the way you point this out.

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  81. not so much ‘hatre-filled’ and ‘bigoted’…

    more ‘at/from-a-distance curiousity’ and ‘disdain/dismissal’…

    ..and i am talking rightwing christians…

    ..not those who pay more than lip-service to the ‘do-good-works’-instructions of their belief system..

    (c.f..anti-war/humanist priest attacks war-surveillance-machine..

    ..there is much to admire there…)

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  82. First of all, John Key, like the rest of politicians in the world (ALL of them), tries to support his measures, his acts, by all means, no matter how vague, empty or weak could his reasoning be. Global terrorism is one of many serious threats our governments (and the societies they represent) are facing. I agree with you that this problem will not be solved in the battlefield. At least, not completely and forever. There are other important fields that should be taken care of, like education, diplomacy, etc. Besides, we should remark that it is not the sole responsibility of country, but all of them.

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