by frog
Published in THE ISSUES by frog on Sun, July 17th, 2011
Tags: general debate
General debate, July 17, 2011
Published: July 17, 2011
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(george galloway on murdoch….)
http://whoar.co.nz/2011/george-galloway-murdoch-is-toxic-and-dead-%C2%A0%C2%A0video/
(..he dosen’t hold back…eh..?..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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http://www.stuff.co.nz/sunday-star-times/features/5292725/I-d-rather-be-judged-on-my-merits
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which political ‘rich-prick’ will really ‘hurt’ from a capital gains tax..?
..his name is john key..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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anyone else at all disturbed about 30 armed offenders cops blowing away a (disturbed) guy armed with a knife…?
that was their only option..?
..really..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1aZcsY-O8Q
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phil says “which political ‘rich-prick’ will really ‘hurt’ from a capital gains tax..?”
None – it’s got so many loopholes (80% of houses for a start, plus homes owned by trusts, Maori land etc) that it will be as useful for collecting tax from the rich as a sieve is for collecting water.
It will push rents up though.
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No.
What is concerning is he previously tried to cut her throat and only got a six month sentence, and has just been let out after serving only 8 weeks.
He shouldn’t have been out.
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“..It will push rents up though…”
rubbish..!..the market sets rental rates…
..if landlords could get away with charging twice/three times what they do now…
..most would…
..i think that is called a strawman argument there..that rent one…or wd spin/bullshit just cover it..?
..and i’m not pleaing mitigation for the shot guy b4 a judge..
..i am just saying that at the very least it must show a total breakdown in their procedures…
..if thirty armed offenders cops…
..aren’t able to disarm an individual..
…armed with a knife..
..(did he threaten to throw it at them..?..)
..and that their only option was to gun him down…
..did they leave the tasers back at the office..?
..or are tasers to ‘wimpy’ for our armed offenders squad..?
..also interesting how the mainstream media are obligingly jumping in with the ‘he deserved it’ meme…
..are their small fucken brains unable to ask that 30 armed cops vs man with knife question..?
..or are their lips just too suckered onto the establishment -arse..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Well, Phil, the good news for Key is that there isn’t going to be a capital gains tax.
Labour crashing and burning. National not getting back in has never been on the cards. But this is spectacular.
In other news, disillusioned Labour voters switch to Greens. Idiots, don’t they realise they are merely moving themselves from the frying pan into the fire? Find a stupid labout policy (like, for example, oh, I don’t know, maybe CGT?) and The Greens jump straight in to support it.
Gotta feel sorry for those left of National, which in part probably includes me, there really is nowhere to go, and no creditable party to vote for. Come back Bill and Ben, we need you now more than ever…
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a bit of election premature ejaculation there from buckley…
..once the public get their heads around the clear choice..
..flog off the family assets..(power companies..!..which means punters will be screwed every which way…forever..)
vs..
a capital gains tax on the rich…
..a different picture will emerge…
..(it was only released on thurs..f.f.s..!..)
..hold that orgasm..!..eh..?..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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did you miss that poll..buckley..?
the one showing that flogging off the state assets/family jewels…
..had 17% support…?
..that figure again…17%..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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phil says “..i think that is called a strawman argument there..that rent one…or wd spin/bullshit just cover it..?’
Call it what you want. The research says CGT will make rents go up.
And it’s what happened in Australia.
If you think taxing all investments except 80% of housing is going to shift oney away from houses and make house prices (and rent) go down, then you’re on some other planet – but then many have suspected that for a long time.
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seeing as i never said rents will go down..
..that’s two strawmen for two…
‘the research’..(i usually provide links/evidence when making claims like that..
..so readers can make their own minds up…
..you don’t see the need..?..)
“..And it’s what happened in Australia…”..
(evidence..?..proving cause and effect..?..)
(signed)..’the brother from another planet’..
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You have it completely wrong. A CGT has been Green policy for years – Labour are the slow adopters, and their version isn’t sufficiently comprehensive (eg their exemptions for collectables and jewellery and their flat rate without inflation adjustment)to not allow rorts.
It is a necessary tax to close a huge hole in the tax base. Why should income from one source (capital gain) be exempt while income earned by personal effort is not?
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More good news. National/Act/Moori will be back in. Labour is dog tucker.
What we are also seeing the end of The labour party as we know it. Maori have already broken away and now standing tall with their own party. The labour green faction is finally moving to the Green party. Frankly I’m surprised how long the labour greens have taken to realise labour was only using them.
So after the election Labour is going to be decimated. Greens will be a lot stronger.
As the greens will still be in opposition they will be harmless
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People won’t realize that until the pie hits their faces, it has to be that obvious, so National may have time enough to win this election. It may find itself wishing it had lost.
http://www.businessinsider.com/end-of-the-middle-class-2011-7#right-now-the-us-government-says-that-141-million-americans-are-unemployed-1
I find it interesting, that the housing price increases are so much a part of the attempted destruction of the middle class in both countries. That it is succeeding in the USA is clear, in NZ the issue is still in doubt. National wishes to ensure that destruction, but still may not be given the tools it needs.
We still, after all, have MMP based representative democracy. That is of course, what the top 5% loathe, as they cannot control us all so easily with MMP.
BJ
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Phil, you’re right, I missed the poll that says flogging off assets only has 17% support, but it’s (unfortunately) not going to make a blind bit of difference. After all, rasing GST was a really popular measure. With widespread suport? Yes?? And it was contrary(ish) to their manifesto, so one could even claim they broke an election promise
The Nats are coming back, unless, truly, hell freezes over. For their second term. And I’m on record saying Key could make four terms.
The current lefty hankering for CGT is a stupid distracting sideshow, and will make it even more certain that we’re going to get another dose of National, and we’re going to have the assets flogged off.
Put it another way: you just keep playing those violins whilst the fires rage.
If there is any real debate about what they party’s positions are, which I doubt, then Labour will be portrayed as the party that wants to raise taxes. And you can argue the detail, such as who it targets, but the underlying assertion (ie what will be the headlines) is true and unarguable.
Third time: National are coming back to fuck us over, and all the left can see is the left-wing-idealogically-sound taxing the rich.
Thanks guys, for ensuring our assets are decimated to the detriment of New Zealand for ever.
Wake up, wake up, ooops, too late, and even the (I assume) token right winger Liberty can see the writing on the wall. Jeez, it must be really, really obvious… And well worth a green tick.
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two things puzzle me frog..
norman kicked arse on the nation last week…
..and in parliament with his riffing on keys’ histrionic-claim..
“..a dagger thru the heart of the new zealand economy..’
..why..esp in an election yr..did you put neither of those vids up on frogblog..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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anyone up for a new cause…?
..one whose time has come..?
http://whoar.co.nz/2011/taking-back-the-fairways-for-parks/
“…Public golf courses, whose audience has gone the way of plaid slacks, are being remade by more cities into parks and other more in-demand amenities.
Landscape Architecture Magazine reports that idle fairways are increasingly attractive to urban planners, asking, “What is the future of golf in crowded, park-hungry cities?”:
The game of golf has never been an efficient use of space (hence the development of mini golf) but in the past it could be argued that it was still worthwhile public investment that subsidized a system’s other parks through green fees.
No longer.
Golf’s popularity is not keeping up with population growth – nor the explosion in the number of private golf venues;…
… it’s also losing out to other self-directed activities like running and cycling.
The repurposing of golf courses has been happening for a few years – but the trend shows no signs of waning…”
(cont..)
(but not yet here in new zealand..eh..?..come on people…!..)
phil(whoar.co.nz
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“..Labour will be portrayed as the party that wants to raise taxes…”
really..?
given the first five grand tax free + no gst on fruit/veg…will leave most (slightly) better off…
..and that it is only the already rich..who pay no taxes on their wheeling and dealing…who are being targetted..
..it’s hard to see how that spin/message will be able to be sustained..
..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Because, Phil, as you yourself point out, it is true.
It may also be true that most people will pay less tax, but that being true doesn’t mean that it cancels the first statement.
Thus you could argue (and perhaps you are) that Labour are the party that are going to lower taxes, and raise taxes, which is true and more complete, but that doesn’t make for a snappy headline.
So what so you think the headline will be. Labour going to lower taxes (true but incomplete) or Labour are going to raise taxes (true but incomplete). My money is on the latter; That headline is not untrue, despite something else maybe being more true, and it is the more interesting and controversial headline.
The word I used was “portrayed”. I chose my word there carefully. Given the way the media works in this country, I believe that (to quote myself) “Labour will be portrayed as the party that wants to raise taxes”. The fact that is an incomplete statement may well be an issue for those supporting what Labour are doing, but that doesn’t actually matter a jot to Joe Public. They believe what they are told by the media, and I believe the popular media will “portray” Labour as the party to raise taxes.
Oh yeah, and the party that wants to borrow even more money than the obscene amounts than the current mob are.
And lets not forget that this election will be just after the Rugby World Cup, which we are likely to lose again (heres why), and so the country will be in a state of depression anyway.
Whatever you think of Key, he may well be the smartest office-holder we’ve ever had.
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it could assist yr comprehension of this subject..buckley..to go and sample the 330+ comments @the herald website..
(esp the widespread rejection of nationals plan to flog off assets..)
..goff is quoted this morning as saying labour can win this election..
..and for the first time..i believe him..
..of course i am still hanging out for their full policy release..
..with all appendages crossed for both a land tax..
..and a financial transactions tax..
..the latter esp…has the potential to raise eyewatering amounts of money..
…with no pain for anyone..(the actual tax being so low…and the massive number of transactions bringing the motherlode…)
..what’s not to love about that..?..
..and why wouldn’t labour introduce it..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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phil u
Yes!
photonz1
What is concerning is that there’s no proper mental health assessment prior to release. If the police are just going to shoot people when the system fails, we are going to see a lot more killings.
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and of course the monies raised from a financial transaction tax/tobin-tax/hone-tax..
wd free the govt to dictate a guaranteed minimum income for all..(deemed enough to live on..)..
..and for income to that figure to be tax-free…
..it’s all just a matter of reconfiguring the current paradigm…
..and ending the free ride enjoyed for so long..by those with the most..
..they have been riding on the backs of wage/salary-earners for far too long…
(of course..i wd also seriously increase sin-taxes on booze/tobacco/gambling…
..and wd leagalise/tax pot..but you already knew that)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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i mean..are we content to just continue to be the slaves of the corporate elite..?
…our whole lives dictated by their economic-needs..?
(to the degree that forcing sole-mothers to find work when their child is 14 weeks old is being discussed/entertained..?..)
..those needs..enacted/enforced ’till now…by compliant politicians from both major parties..?
…government must be for the people…
..not for those elites…
..the ‘disease’ of poverty can be cured with the swipe of a pen..
..all we have to do is demand that cure…
..and to brook no demur…
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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phil says “..and ending the free ride enjoyed for so long..”
You mean like getting paid to do nothing….for so long.
Phil says “i mean..are we content to just continue to be the slaves… ”
You mean like doing actual work…
Todd says “If the police are just going to shoot people when the system fails…”
Police didn’t “just shoot”.
If you don’t want to get shot, don’t
1/ Try to slit your ex’s throat.
2/ kidnap someone with a gun for 12 hours
3/ beat her up
4/ come at police with a knife
If you don’t do the above, and in particular all of the above, then there’s little chance of being shot.
In most other countries a sniper would have taken him out much sooner.
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Took a while to find it, but then again I rarely go the NZ Herald website, so maybe that’s down to my not knowing where to look.
I sampled a few pages of comments, and got 13 in favour, 9 against, and 8 no useful content, so of those comments, there is a majority in favour of a CGT, but not exactly an overwhelming majority.
And I found nothing there to aid my comprehension.
“Johnny” noted, quite sensibly I thought:
Which is what I’d think many people might think, that CGT is a necessary evil. But the problem is, that’s not the case.
In the long term CGT will generate some revenues, but in the short term the spending plans Labour appears to have will put the country even deeper into debt.
Perhaps if more people understood that debt is not good, National have put us deeper into debt is bad, and that Labour are going to outdo National with even more debt that makes it even worse, and that CGT is just a sideshow to obfuscate what’s happening with debt, then people might be less supportive.
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photonz1
So why didn’t they shoot him in the leg or taser him? Besides, it’s not verified that he “came at police with a knife” at all.
Is it police policy to shoot to kill somebody with a knife? Is it OK for the police to be judge and jury? If there was no threat to life, we can consider that he was executed. Capital punishment was outlawed in the 50′s btw.
National under Muldoon initiated it again for treason, until it was outlawed completely in 1989. There have been no executions since 1957. It’s likely that Walter Bolton, the last man hung was innocent of the crime he was convicted of.
New Zealand has a policing advantage most other countries can only dream of. What other countries do is irrelevant. If we want to base our society on other failed countries, we will also fail.
Anthony Ratahi had stepped out of the hotel soon after speaking with the police, making it seem that he was surrendering. An initial report said the police had set a dog on him, and then he was shot dead.
Usually a police dog can handle somebody with a knife, they are trained to precisely attack the arm with a weapon. Unless that police dog was incapacitated, which is unlikely, Anthony Ratahi posed no real threat to human life at the stage that he was shot.
What he did prior to that incident is inconsequential. Are you trying to justify the killing in some way with your 1 to 4 list of his alleged crimes photonz1?
Stop ignoring my argument that there should be a proper assessment prior to release. That is where fault lies, the corrections system has failed, and I’m not talking about any failure by the Justice System to impose a long enough sentence.
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You’re making all sorts of summations you know nothing about (like it seemed he was surrendering).
Personally, if you try to slit someones throat, take them hostage at gun and knifepoint for twelve hours, beat them up, and end up getting shot by police – I have no sympathy.
The fact that the victim is safe and in a reasonable condition is the number one concern in my view – and that points to a job well done.
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btw…did you know that amongst the truly hip..
..those surfing the front edge of the zeitgeist…
..that crocs are now very cool..?..(the black ones esp…)
(..fashionistas be damned…)
..it’s to do with there being no animal bits in them…
..and them lasting for such a long time..
..and being so easy to put on and off…
..and being so comfortable to wear…
..what’s not to love about all that…?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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photonz1
Saying that the police and corrections have done things wrong does not mean I’m sympathizing. I have not ignored the victim, I just happen to think there is more than one.
While you say he was attacking the police with a knife. Who is really making assumptions?
You try to justify the police shooting Anthony Ratahi because of what he did, not if he was a further threat. You really are a RWNJ photonz1.
The victim could have been made safe without the need to shoot Anthony Ratahi dead. Therefore it is not a job well done, somebody is dead you moron!
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Have you ever shot a pistol or rifle before ? TV\Movies are alot different to real life.
A person armed with a knife can cover 5 meters distance in under a second. Meaning a cop 10 meters away would only have 2 seconds at best to aim and fire before being slashed or stabbed.
Also hitting someone in the leg with a 9mm round or even a .223 isnt necessarily going to stop them in their tracks, therfore they still pose a risk.
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Jackal says “While you say he was attacking the police with a knife. Who is really making assumptions”
He had a gun. He’d threatened to kill police.
When he was shot he was fighting police and had a knife.
That’s all been reported so far.
If you get yourself in that situation and it turns out bad, I blame the offender. Todd blames the police.
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nzmr2guy
Yes! I grew up using guns. Any marksman can shoot somebody in the leg instead of the head or chest area. There were a large contingent of expert marksmen there. A leg shot would stop somebody. A taser is designed to halt somebody and keep them incapacitated for some time.
photonz1
It appears that Anthony Ratahi did not have a gun when he was shot, which is yet another inconsistency with the scenario. The police have just reported that his body was “removed from the Opunake hotel,” however he was apparently shot outside the hotel.
Do you really propose that the police would not use a taser before getting in close proximity to somebody with a knife? The report said that there was an altercation, and that the police had sent in a police dog. It is likely that the altercation was with the police dog. It is very unlikely that a police officer would become involved until the dog had subdued its target.
Why would Anthony Ratahi bring a knife to a gun fight if he truly intended to “kill the police?”
I don’t blame the Police for the situation, I blame them for the way they resolved it. The situation and how it is resolved are different things. If you cannot differentiate between the two, you’re mentally deficient photonz1.
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To tell the truth, I have little concern about what happened to this offender.
And even less interest in going into twenty different scenarios which are all congecture.
Until you actually know what happened, you accusations are unfounded and pointless.
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photonz1
You have little concern for a human life? Says it all really.
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Jackal – you show overwhelming fake concern for the offender but not a word of sympathy for his victim.
It’s transparently clear that your only REAL concern, is putting the boot into the police.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQn4lWNMUlI&feature=email
Congratulations Greens.
I would expect this to only increase, families being ripped apart by draconian laws that promote ideology ahead of reality.
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photonz…do you have the evidence/links to support yr claims around the cgt..?
or are you just like a dog in a park..
..and just move onto the next pile of dogshit..?
(taiho there shunda..i know irt is a full moon..but you appear close to hyperventilation..
..are you over-excited from all that homophobic-garbage you have been posting at kiwiblog..?
..does talking/thinking about it get you all animated/excited..?
..is yr body trying to tell you something..?
..(not that there’s anything wrong with that..i hasten to add..)
..what a strange/bigoted little man you are..eh..?
(have you met photonz yet..?..you never know yr luck..eh..?
..not that there’s anything wrong with that..i hasten to add..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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photonz1
I have concern for the lady involved, but she is not dead is she photonz1. I have more concern that somebody has been shot dead by the police. It is not an either or situation, your lack of concern for a human life and immoral justification for that death is despicable!
Wrong! My concern is that the police have shot yet another person dead and are investigating themselves. My concern is that there are conflicting stories. My concern is that corrections did not do their job properly in the first place. My concern is that there is no proper rehabilitation for people who are incarcerated.
I have a lot of respect for the police when they do their job properly. I’ve often utilized them to defuse situations and I am grateful for the help. I certainly don’t let that respect of authority get in the way of making proper deductions concerning the death of Anthony Ratahi, like you seem to be doing.
Tell me photonz1, is the fact the Anthony Ratahi Maori have anything to do with you trying to justify his death?
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phil asks :photonz…do you have the evidence/links to support yr claims around the cgt..?
or are you just like a dog in a park..
..and just move onto the next pile of dogshit..?”
Yes – all listed one to two weeks ago.
Jackal – your racist bullshit question does not deserve an answer.
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oh well..you have the forum..
care to repeat them..?
or do you expect us all to go delving into yr past comments..?..(shudder..!..)
phil(whoar.co.nz
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Jackel you sound just like another arm chair critic who reckoned he could have done better than highly trained police officers.
Would love to give you my Glock and a time machine (if I had one) and see if the outcome would have been different.
Oh and you do realise what the I in IPCA stands for ?.
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phil asks “oh well..you have the forum..
care to repeat them..?”
No – not really. The research on how much rents will go up with the introduction of CGT was debated by both sides.
If you’re a week and a half behind the debate I’m not going to hunt them out for you again.
If you really want to know how much your rent will go up by in the event that Labour and Greens form the next govt, go and have a look.
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utter bullshit…photonz..
..the market sets the rents…
..not landlords…(despite their/your self-delusions..)
..yr whole argument is a pile of bullshit..
..(the day must be one ending in ‘y’..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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photonz1
I’ll take that as a yes! Your argument is similar to the SST and their hypocritical racism. Recently they supported somebody who killed a young Maori boy just because he’s white. A few months prior to that they campaigned for a Maori person to receive a long sentence for a similar crime.
Your “research” did not take into account the fact that speculators (professional rack renters) will be investing in property at reduced levels. This will mean more houses available which will drive down rents. It’s all about competition, something a capitalist like yourself should support.
nzmr2guy
I’m not sure what my skill level has to do with how the police conducted themselves in this matter. Whether I can shoot a gun better has nothing to do with how Anthony Ratahi was killed and if it was justifiable.
It stands for independent. Do you truly think that the name of an organization can make the conduct of its employees truly independent?
Are the people involved with the Free Speech Coalition actually concerned with freedom of speech nzmr2guy? What a ridiculous argument.
I must say that the debating skills of the RWNJ are pathetic today.
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Todd – you make offensive false racist accusations on a debate that hasn’t got anything to do with race, and hasn’t even mentioned race.
You’re a dickhead.
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so..photonz…
if it were a blond pakeha woman…disturbed/losing it…carrying a knife..
..who had been gunned down by 30 heavily armed armed-offender-trained cops…
..you wouldn’t be saying ‘surely there must have been some other way…?’
…you wouldn’t be so offhandedly sneering that ‘she deserved it’..
..eh..?
..so therefor the charges of racism on yr part..stand/are valid..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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phil says “..the market sets the rents…
..not landlords…(despite their/your self-delusions..)”
How do you explain thay if I live in Auckland I’ll have to pay a much higher percentage of my wages on rent than if I live in Timaru.
Rents are much more closely aligned to house prices than wages and what people can afford to pay.
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a ‘richard’…?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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K frog. I do apologize for saying photonz1 is pathetic! But apart from that, I can see nothing wrong with the rest of my argument.
I think it’s an issue that Maori people are more likely to get shot by police. I also think it’s relevant to point out the disproportionate response many people in the SST have based on the colour of a persons skin.
In my opinion, justice determined by race is not justice at all. Highlighting such is not an ad hominem attack and I would appreciate more specific administration.
If photonz1 cannot answer a simple question as to whether his response to this latest incident is racially based, without resorting to personal insults, you will forgive me for giving a few insults back.
It is an important question… Are Maori people over represented in negative statistics because of racism? My experience is that entrenched racism is endemic of those negative statistics, and I’m white btw.
Photonz1 extols the blame the victim mentality, and he deserves to be called on his motivation for that. If he cannot provide a proper answer then there can be only one conclusion.
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frog..!..you’ve deleted the raison d’etre for my ‘richard’-punchline..?
..you philistine..!
..i am offended by him..but not by his words..
..i was forged in the cauldron that is kiwi-swamp…
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Jackal and phil – people who makes false accusations of racism are no better than racists.
And that describes both of you.
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Pimp Your Country
John Key will spend the next few days talking free trade with American companies and Barack Obama. While the mainstream media paints a rosy picture concerning a free trade agreement with the United States through the Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP), the truth of the matter is not being reported at all.
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an aspect/outcome from this murdoch thing has not yet been entertained..
namely..what this will do for/to the credibility of the mainstream media…
what happens when the penny drops for consumers of that media..?
..and they realise they have been lead by the nose..forever..
..that what they read/have read..has all been coloured by interests light years away from their own..
..that they have been played/treated as gullible mugs…
..their anger at/rejection of the dead-tree media will be interesting to watch as it unfolds…
..and who will those readers turn to..?
..who can they now trust..?
..(ahem..!..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Phil
No mob of sheep is as dumb as the sheeple of the USA. They buy everything the Wall Street Journal(A Murdoch pub) cheerleaders tell them, they don’t know who or what Rupert really is or has created and the ones who watch Faux news (A Murdoch pub) won’t hear much about it in any case.
So it won’t result in anger, or disillusion. They are skilled at holding those illusions. The real unemployment in the USA is certainly in the neighborhood of 15% and the infrastructure is collapsing around them, but there is no money for anyone outside the Hamptons enclave and Wall Street.
So it goes to ever higher GINI, ever lower employment, a housing catastrophe in slow motion and bridges falling into rivers for lack of maintenance. It is in short, a country that is failing, and falling and it has no one to call when it can’t get up.
Do we REALLY want a trade agreement with them? Putin called them financial hooligans.
Better we have a trade agreement with India or Brazil and buy our pharmaceuticals from them.
BJ
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a stat from america that has stuck with me..
..is that when that major bridge collapsed a couple of years ago..
..a survey showed some fifty thousand bridges in similar condition to the one that collaped…
..and of course here…we have the clip-ons on the harbour bridge…
..am i the only one not reassured by trucks/heavy-vehicles asked not to use those clip-on lanes..
…whoar…!
..and re the impending murdoch media break-up…
..what about the grip murdoch has on our media..?
..what will happen there..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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http://whoar.co.nz/2011/eating-meat-linked-to-disease/
“…A new report released Monday claims the science is clear: Eating too much meat is bad for your health.
The so-called Meat Eater’s Guide, compiled by the Environmental Working Group, is generating buzz for its “cradle-to-grave” look at the environmental impact of 20 popular types of meat, dairy and vegetable proteins.
But it also emphasizes the potential health impact of eating too much meat – recommending that people cut back to decrease their risk of heart disease and certain cancers.
“The goal is to really make this information accessible to consumers,” said Kari Hamerschlag, an agriculture analyst with the research and advocacy group.
“On the health side, we really pulled together all of the information and tried to make it as clear as possible that there’s not just one reason to limit meat consumption; – there are a whole host of reasons.”
The report, which weaves together statistics from various earlier studies, allows that meat can be an important source of protein and vitamins when eaten in moderation.
But in the U.S., moderation may be a problem.
The report cites data from the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization suggesting that Americans consume almost 60 percent more meat than their European counterparts…/.
… and four times more than in many developing countries.
And much of that meat is either red or processed.
The health effects of this, the EWG report claims, are myriad:…
… A 2009 report from the National Cancer Institute found that people who ate the most red meat — which can have high levels of cholesterol-rising saturated fat — were 27 percent more likely to die of heart disease.
That same report also found serious meat eaters were 20 percent more likely to die of cancer than those who consumed the least amount of meat…”
(cont..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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goff was just on tvone breakfast..
..he did well…(and is honing that cgt vs. selling assets argument…)
and mentioned an argument for the cgt that i like/have used…
namely..that 15% off the profits…still leaves 85% of that profit..
..(i wd suggest he use the phrase…’to console themselves with’..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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This is how to get things back on track with respect to CO2. Are you ready kids?
http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2008/11/23/203377/an-open-letter-to-james-hansen-on-the-real-truth-about-stabilizing-at-350-ppm/
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Hm! A bit of double speak there. In 2005, nuclear power provided 6.3% of the world’s energy and 15% of the world’s electricity. Annual generation of nuclear power has been on a slight downward trend since 2007, decreasing 1.8% in 2009 to 2558 TWh with nuclear power meeting 13–14% of the world’s electricity demand.
The article you linked to BJ was written in 2008. Because the world has experienced a major disaster that continues to be problematic, the article is somewhat irrelevant. The earthquake in Japan changes the game plan, Nuclear power has once again been proven to be unsafe and highly dangerous to the existence of mankind.
Exchanging one threat for another is not a solution. We need to be developing long lasting sustainable and environmentally friendly power supplies, not repeating the mistakes of the past.
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National’s Campaign of Disinformation
David Cunnliffe blogged today about Labour’s Capital Gains Tax and the disinformation National and its media outlets are promoting to try and turn public opinion. They have decided to undertake a campaign of disinformation, because an argument based on the facts and the truth would be problematic for the right wing.
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You want to get back to 350, the effort is about the same order of difficulty as fighting WWII was.
That was the primary point.
I don’t care what other people think about nuclear, it remains relatively light on the CO2 per GW and relatively safe (compared with coal) IF it is not done for profit. We’ve done this argument before.
The earthquake in Japan changes the game plan, Nuclear power has once again been proven to be unsafe and highly dangerous to the existence of mankind.
It is a lot more expensive to do it right than most nuclear advocates (and I am not one) believe. In Japan that would include either a deep seabed or an inland site with gravity fed cooling from a secure reservoir (using the technology of the day), or nowadays, a Thorium reactor. Lots more options now.
It is not impossible to do it safely enough to be worth doing given what we face and what we know. It is likely however, that Romm hasn’t got a tight grip on the expense of that particular wedge.
Exchanging one threat for another is not a solution. We need to be developing long lasting sustainable and environmentally friendly power supplies
True, it is not the lasting solution we want. It is however, an interim solution that human civilization needs. Whether humans are smart enough to recognize this or not.
AGW is not a “threat” on the order of magnitude of Fukushima (which could not have been built where it was EXCEPT as financial considerations trumped safety). It is much much much worse. Nor is it a “threat. It is a dead certainty on current form, and we aren’t changing that either. Nuclear safety is subject to engineering effort, climate change won’t respond to anything but reductions, and massive ones, in our emissions profiles (or mirrors in space).
Which gives us 3 choices. We can go to work with the effort to build ALL the listed “wedges” and Cheap Access To Space at rates that keep us in electrons while we shut down the coal plants. We can do nothing (which is what we are doing now) and suffer the AGW consequences. We can shut down the coal plants and suffer power shortages that cripple our civilization’s food supplies and ultimately cause many millions to die .
It is not so much a balance of “one threat against another” as an acceptance of the need to do all we can. One of the risks is manageable, and the others are beyond our ability to address.
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Does this strike you as absurd?
http://robertguyton.blogspot.com/2011/07/quite-frankly-solid-energy-youre-being.html
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The reality is, Bj, that there will be more coal plants built, not less.
That’s not a good reality, I grant you, but it is what is going to happen, unless some game-changer comes along. Coal is relatively available, and is proven technology.
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http://whoar.co.nz/2011/today-in-the-news-39-newfresh-storieslinks-for-you/
ed:..it’s been a murdoch kinda day..and i have nine stories/links worthy of perusal on that subject…
..ranging from the deeply serious…to the first ‘funny’ murdoch story..(the fake-movie trailer…get yr first murdoch belly-laughs..)
male happiness..(the lack of)..and the connection between nation-penis-size and economic performance are entertained..(different stories..)
a hackers best-of..
bette midler vs lady gaga…
making peace with small boobs..
children don’t need married parents..
and classic books you shouldn’t bother reading..
all that..and more…enjoy..!..eh..?
oh..!..we also have a political animation from mark fiore…(now there’s a website/archive in which to while away a few hours…)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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of course..those national party supporters horrified by the idea of asset sales…
..but unable to bring themselves to vote labour…to stop the sales…
..could always vote green..for the same outcome…
..phil(whoar.co.nz)
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how to stop people using/buying/always carrying those plastic bottles of water:..
..start referring to it as ‘your bottle’…
..thus referencing/reinforcing the infantilism of this practice..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Elephant in room: CGT.
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why should you be ‘shocked’ valis…?
i’ve never seen anything wrong with harvesting/pitching for national votes..on policy grounds..
(..agreeing to support/prop-up a national administration of this colour/ilk…
..is an entirely different matter..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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yes indeed..the elephant in the room for the nact-govt
..is the capital gains tax…
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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The Rugby World Cup is a Trojan horse that will cost our country dearly!
http://localbodies-bsprout.blogspot.com/2011/07/rugby-world-cup-has-exposed-our.html
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First off anyone who believes the polls should think back to the former national prime minister Jim Bolger and his comments about Polls and pollsters …….. something about buggering them.
Labor , even though they are bad and rotten are offering an alternative to Nationals welfare to corperations and the rich.
National of course are just ‘plain evil’.
I find it very interesting and revealing that the Nats bullshit about being about law and order.
But in the recent police shooting we had a man who tried to cut his partners throat ………. and he got a six month sentance and did 8 weeks.
How very national ………. get into power saying one thing and yet it seems throat cutters have never had it so good …………. until they get out and get shot.
Also very National is when we compare an 8 month sentance handed down to cannabis campaigner Dakkta Green ……… and six months for trying to cut some-ones throat.
So I guess under National throat cutting is not as bad as pot smoking.
Judith Collins and Simon powers must be very happy……. thats good Natianal party stuff that .
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nznative says “Also very National is when we compare an 8 month sentance handed down to cannabis campaigner Dakkta Green ……… and six months for trying to cut some-ones throat.”
First, Judges set the sentences. I’m sure there are longer sentences for cutting someones throat than 6 months.
Second – Dakta Green was offerered home detention but chose jail instead.
Third – he was done for drug dealing, not just smoking.
You have tried so hard to spin this that your arguement got dizzy and fell over
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“..Third – he was done for drug dealing..”
he is a cannabis activist…trying to legalise a recreational/medical ‘drug’ that has killed no-one…
..trying to overturn an unjust/stupid/illogical law…
..working from a moral/justice basis..
..something you probably would have difficulty understanding…?
..a low-level pot dealer in auckland was sentenced to two years recently…
..the same week..a white-collar who had ripped millions…
..got home detention…
..it figures you would be a prohibitionist photonz..
..it goes/fits with the rest of yr irrational prejudices..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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phil – I didn’t actually comment on whether I considered his sentence harsh or light.
All I did was point out that the conviction was for dealing – not just smoking as was incorrectly stated.
And point out that he himself chose a much harsher sentence.
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Logically, this is an idiotic argument to offer, as it turns the real situation on its head.
If the dominant parties are restored to their 2 party autocratic rule by some form of FPP fraudulently perpetrated on us, the “alternative” for someone who wishes to punish National is only Labour, and the “alternative” for someone who wishes to hold Labour accountable is only National.
The minor parties, which are so feared and reviled by those people on the right , are in fact the safety votes for them when they want to “hold someone responsible”.
When they reduce the choices, they REDUCE their ability to “hold someone responsible.
BJ
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BJ
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jt9JpYRulSk
How is it that we ever respected a banker?
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Disaster Capitalism
This week it was revealed that CERA officials are being paid over twice as much as was officially recommended. Former National Prime Minister Jenny Shipley, Anake Goodall and Murray Sherwin are being paid $1000 a day while the panel’s convenor, Sir John William Hansen, has been set at $1400 a day.
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The National party are very pro – drug ……….. as long as the drug is booze ….
John Keys will even give you a knighthood if you can push enough of the stuff…..
Never mind the 4 billion odd difference between what booze costs the country and what we collect in excise tax from the booze pushers ( liqour industry ).
The national party and all the mp’s get a lot of money,perks and gifts from the booze industry.
I call it what it is …….corruption of Government by drug pushers.
National have always been for the war on other drug users……
They have always been comfortable with violence being treated more leniently than drug offences .
Didn’t they just recently take money away from rape crisis?.
Didn’t they just recently take money away from rape victims ( ACC )
Here’s a question for photoNZ1 our national troll.
Which party made rape illegal within marriage ( it used to be legal for a man to rape his wife ) and when did it happen ?.
Actually the Nats are so sick you have their bent police minister hopeing NZ prisoners get raped in jail.
How very national ………..
Plain evil.
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BJ says “Actually Photonz, it matters not a whit. He was whacked for 8 months while the violent offender got 6. That’s simply insane. ”
My very first comment on this was about how light the violent offenders sentence was.
As for the drug dealer – it’s a pretty weak arguement that the sentence is too harsh when he himself turned down a much lighter one of home detention.
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Jackal – $1400 per day would actually be a drop in pay compared to what he was getting as a high court judge
(based on the 2008 salary of $345,000 for a high court judge, working 5 days a week, 48 weeks/year = $1437/day).
So it’s arguably reasonable if it replaces lost salary.
But unreasonable if it is on top of his salary and he gets paid as a judge while he works for CERA.
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There is no sanity in the way the country approaches the drug problem, and that is the lost “war on drugs” legacy. That the war had to be lost was apparent to most of us from the beginning. That it IS lost is only starting to dawn on the folks in the middle. The resentment for the loss and the blame for it comes strictly from the right-right-wing.
The argument that the MRI scan research actually indicates a significant brain difference in their response to change as opposed to folks on the left, just seems more and more compelling.
You do get points for noting the lightweight approach to the violent one though
respectfully
BJ
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bj says ” The resentment for the loss and the blame for it comes strictly from the right-right-wing.”
And I always thought Jim Anderton was left wing.
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OK… sub “mostly” for “strictly”. Anderton is something else.
BJ
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I know quite a few “left wing” people who are very anti drug and quite a few “right wing” people who have liberal views on drugs.
That’s why I don’t particularly like to steroetype a vast range of different people into what they believe on a vast range of issues, then pigeonhole them into one of just two political types.
Because when you do that, people start concentrating on fighting the “other side”, and forget to look at solutions to problems.
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Phil says “those national party supporters horrified by the idea of asset sales..could always vote green..for the same outcome…”
You’ve got your game hat on. Are you advocating that the Greens chase the blue-green vote?
BTW, is your affair with Mana over?
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I suspect opinions on drug use ignore to a large degree the right/left political divisions. Anderton is a prime example, generally socially left, but extremely paternalistic, and rabidly anti-drug. In theory ACT ought all be pro-legalisation, except the party has been hijacked by loony christian types, and they have abandoned their libertarian roots. Drug policy opinions are ones of personal morality, not political leaning, in my experience, and those who claim to know what is better for us than we do, and who choose to try to impose their will on others, are usually the worst offenders. Libertarian thinkers like myself tend to favour allowing people to do what they want with their own bodies.
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fin..as i noted earlier in this thread..i have never been against harvesting votes from national…
..and in fact..way back..wd flinch when rod donald wd make public statements saying he ‘didn’t want national party voters supporting the greens’..which he did most elections..
..and wd argue against such a tactic..arguing he be more welcoming…underpinned with my view that not all national party voters are environmental visigoths…
..and that they were there to be ‘harvested’..but my arguments were to no avail..
(i’ve always had my ‘game-hat on’…eh..?..)
..but i wd bitterly oppose the greens propping up the mongrels in office…
..and ‘affair’..?
..mana is the most interesting thing to happen in nz politics..
..since the greens..
..and if you don’t yet recognise them as yr best hope yet for a staunch ally/fellow agent of some serious/positive change…
..you haven’t been paying attention..
(and i last wore my mana t-shirt..the day before yesterday…
..and then there is that sticker on the back of my vehicle…
..which may confuse some..
..’what’s the old pakeha guy doing with a mana sticker on his motor..?’)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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http://whoar.co.nz/2011/commentwhoar-for-a-reputed-man-of-the-people-john-key-is-appearing-increasingly-out-of-touch/
here is the evidence for this headline:..
a political poll shows that support for his flogging off state assets sits at 17%..
(that figure again..?..17%..)
..another poll shows 43% support for labours’ capital gains tax…
..(not to mention most ‘experts’/commentators…and including his own minister of finance..weighing in in favour of labours’ plans…)
(as an aside..that admission from english that ‘theoretically it is a good idea’..for a capital gains tax…
..only supports my thesis that english..for quite some time..has been trying to make key/national do everything they can to lose the upcoming election…
..reason..?…if key wins..english will never get to be prime minister..
…if key loses..he has already said he is outta there..(way to go for commitment there..john..!..)..
…which means that english could have another tilt at the leadership..sit out an..in his eyes..a dysfunctional lab/grns/whoever one-term coalition..
..and him sweeping back into power in 2014…
(..if i were him…that’s what i’d be doing…)
..and those nattys pondering/wondering why english is so loose/uncaring (in-house) about the/any electoral outcomes from plans to flog off the family silver…(and now his admission that labours’ plan is a good idea…)
..his personal ambitions explain all that…)
(nb:..maybe key has twigged to englishs’ plan..?..joyce is now leading the charge on those issues..english has been pulled..)
..anyway..back to key…
his most recent out-of-touch is his obviously bullshit covering for what appears to be yet another invasion by israeli spies..
…looting id’s/info/whatever…
..nobody is believing his (increasingly desperate) cries from washington of ‘nothing to see here!’..
..(except guyon espiner…who is travelling with him..is that a case of espiner being too close to his subject..?..or espiner pissed at his glory-stories from washington being bumped by the spies..?
what else to explain his (astonishing) echoing of keys’ (widely-disbelieved) assurances on breakfast telly this morning..?)
..the evidence for this ‘widespread disbelief’ at keys’ words..?
..the evidence of how out of touch he is..?
a herald online poll this morning…
..asking ‘do you believe israeli spies have been active in new zealand during and after the earthquake..?’
..currently the ‘yes’ answer is running at 74%…
(that figure again..?..74%….)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Whether Dakta Green’s prison sentence is ‘disproportionately severe punishment’ may become more relavent. NZ Bill of Rights Article 9:’ The right not to be subject to torture or to cruel degrading or disproportionately severe treatment or punishment.’
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Phil, whereas I don’t think you’re wrong on the details, best as I can tell, the people like Key (ie they seperate Key the man from National policy and activities), and Goff just isn’t liked.
Which means that people are prepared to vote in a party that stands for policies they hate.
But hey, we’re all just speculating, one of us will be eating humble pie in a few months time
Currently, the polls say its you, but just between you and me (‘cos no-one’s watching, right?), I hope its me that ends up with the pie. That would be a less bad outcome for the nation.
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bjchip, has the war been lost though because of a fundamental issue, or because of the flawed way in which we have been fighting it? I would note that drug consumption in Singapore is virtually non existent, and I strongly suspect that the tough penalties for drug possession there are to thank for it.
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There is also a limited perimeter and area to the Singapore in a physical sense, and it is quite crowded. There is thus little-no possibility of home-grown drugs, a relatively simple enforcement border and damned little privacy. Not easy to keep secrets there except through the anonymity of the crowd… which is no protection for an addict.
I accept that it “works” there, and if you like that sort of life you can embrace it… there, or in any prison. Portugal, the pre-drug-war USA and a fair few other places show us that there is an alternative strategy that ALSO works and that does not impinge on human freedom and human rights to such a degree, and does not rely on physically unique circumstances to succeed.
BJ
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well buckley..if you really do want to eat humble pie come election-nite…
..you may be cheered by the latest roy morgan poll..
…which has national slipping below 50%..
..labour back at what they got last election nite..
..(the greens on 7.5%…)
http://whoar.co.nz/2011/latest-poll-has-national-below-50/
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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neo-fascists love the singapore regime..
i think they yearn to lash/cane…
..or…seeing as we are talking tories.. be lashed/caned..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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John Key Lies Again
On Tuesday it was revealed that an Israeli man named Ofer Mizrahi, who died in the February Christchurch earthquake had five or six passports on him. Apparently the other three Israeli people traveling with Mizrahi, took their own passports with them when they left the country, but before departing they handed over the deceased man’s Israeli passport to Israeli representatives.
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bj chip says “Portugal, ……. show[s] us that there is an alternative strategy that ALSO works..”
Use of cannabis, heroin, cocaine, and ecstacy increased massively in Portugal with decriminalisation (use of most is double or nearly double what they previously were).
Then there is also the fact that there have been huge efforts put into education and addiction programmes which makes if more difficult to pinpoint the reasons for all the very positive and very negative changes.
Deaths from drug use has certainly gone down a lot. But the results are very mixed. If you cherry-pick stats you can show it’s been a great success, or show it’s been a disaster.
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As a computer illiterate Photonz 1, could you provide me with some of those links re:Portugal? I just find it hard to fathom that a whole heap of people decided to indulge as soon as it was decriminalised? Am interested in reading more, thanks in advance.
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Friday Fun with Photos #10
First monkey covered his eyes and spoke,
“See no evil”…
By refusing to see and confronting evil
Victims are born of doubt, guilt and fear
Clear sight sheds light and illumines evil
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more lies from photonz…
everything legal for ten years….
..deemed a raging success on all levels..
and ten years ago..the change was made out of desperation..
..as the country was wracked by narco-wars between gangs battling over the drug trade…
..and the collateral-damage was high…with running gun battles in the streets…
..and of course the current success story of the drug wars..is mexico…
..with an eye-watering body-count…
..or is that just ‘cherry-picking’..?
…and now we come to photonzs’ big lie…
..portugal actually has lower rates of drug use than countries with prohibition…
..and imagine how many lives would have been saved in mexico had they made the same choice as portugal ten years ago..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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fans of historical-ironies will be cheered by the realisation that the russians have won the space-race….
..the americans have dropped out of the race..eh..?
..leaving the former soviet union the victor…
…and this result after all that angst..?
..as bob dylan noted at the time..
“..dunno if it could get much worse..
…but imagine if the russians got there first..
..wowee..!…pretty scary…!…”
(b.j.’ll be grim/gutted…eh..?..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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and of course the current sick/sad irony is an african-american president
pouring millions into useless wars…
..when a fraction of that money would bring a marshall plan to africa…
…where the miseries have reached a new height…
..with 50% of children in somalia dead before age six…
..is this the future we wanted…?
..must be nearly time to take it back…
..eh..?
..we can start here…
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Use of cannabis, heroin, cocaine, and ecstacy increased massively in Portugal with decriminalisation (use of most is double or nearly double what they previously were).
I am sure you have a link to some supporting documentation Photonz, but it will be a link to a liar.
Following decriminalization, Portugal had the lowest rate of lifetime marijuana use in people over 15 in the E.U.: 10%. The most comparable figure in America is in people over 12: 39.8%. Proportionally, more Americans have used cocaine than Portuguese have used marijuana.
Of course there WAS a drug related statistic that doubled…
…in the five years after personal possession was decriminalized, illegal drug use among teens in Portugal declined and rates of new HIV infections caused by sharing of dirty needles dropped, while the number of people seeking treatment for drug addiction more than doubled.
Yup… the people who got treatment to try to quit doubled.
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html
BJ
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Thanks Bj and Whoar.
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I’ll post this up for our Natianal troll PhotoNZ1 ….. not that it will change his little natianal troll behavior
New Zealand psychoactive drug awareness and knowledge quiz .
1) Does New Zealand as a country have a problem with drugs ?, Yes / No
2) What is the number 1drug for number of addicts in New Zealand?, a) Alcohol, b) Cannabis, c) Ecstasy, d) Lsd
3) Which drug is involved in approximately 50% of serious crimes including murder, sexual assaults, manslaughter etc in New Zealand?, a) alcohol, b) cannabis, c) Ecstasy, d) Lsd.
4) Which drug kills approximately 1000 New Zealanders a year many of them young people ?, a) Alcohol, b) Cannabis, c) Ecstasy, d) Lsd
5) Which drug is the leading cause of preventable foetal brain damage to babies born in New Zealand ?, a) Alcohol, b) Cannabis, c) Ecstasy, d) Lsd
6) The ‘drug crazed nutter’ most of us will encounter is? , a) The angry drunk, b) The stoned person, c) The Ecstasy taker, d) The Lsd taker
7) The womans refuges in New Zealand are full because of the drug?, a) Alcohol, b) Cannabis, c) Ecstasy, d) Lsd
8) The most common drug behind marriage breakups and family breakdowns in New Zealand Is?, a) Alcohol, b) Cannabis, c) Ecstasy, d) Lsd
9) Which strong neurotoxic drug ( it kills brain cells ) is also a solvent?, a) Alcohol, b) Cannabis, c) Ecstasy, d) Lsd
10) Which drug causes a huge drain on police resources because of the crime its consumption actually causes? , a) Alcohol, b) Cannabis, c) Ecstasy d) Lsd
11) Which drug is aggressively ‘pushed’ at all and particularly young New Zealanders to the tune of approx $400,000 PER DAY? , a) Alcohol, b)Cannabis, c) Ecstasy, d) Lsd
12) Which drug if you sell enough of it in New Zealand will they give you a knighthood for a)Alcohol, b) Cannabis, c) Ecstasy, d) Lsd
13) The makers of which drug give large donations, gifts and perks to political party’s and mp’s and get treated very very favourably by our law makers a) Alcohol, b) Cannabis, c) Ecstasy, d) Lsd
14) Both the liqor industry pushers and health professionals concerned at the damage the drug alcohol is causing in New Zealand have approached Peter Dunne our associate minister of health for meetings. Giving two numbers the first being for the booze pushers and the second for the health professional pick the ratio of meetings the right honourable Peter dunne had with both representatives a) 7-0, b) 4-3, c) 3-4, d) 0-7
15) Which drug is overwhelming our health service’s and creating havoc in hospital ER departments? , a) Alcohol, b) Cannabis, c) Ecstasy, d) Lsd
16) The National Government in relation to the drug alcohol could be seen as a) Pro drug to the extent the drug pushers get tax breaks and rich at the expense of society, b) Tough on drugs and going to bring the pushers of a drug that kills and harms so many New Zealanders to heel.
17) A statement containing the words ‘Alcohol & drugs is? , a) Political spin designed to confuse the fact the Alcohol is our No1 drug problem b) A scientific statement because Alcohol is not a drug and drugs are bad
18) Which drug if society could lower excessive consumption off, would negate the need to build any new prisons? , a) Alcohol, b) Cannabis, c) Ecstasy, d) Lsd
19) Which drug is most often associated with suicide? , a) Alcohol, b) Cannabis, c) Ecstasy, d) Lsd
20) What is the most common date rape drug ? , a) Alcohol, b) Cannabis, c) Ecstasy, d) Lsd
21) Does New Zealand have a drug problem?, Yes/No
22) Prohibition is most successful at?, a) Growing crime and empowering and gangs, b) Stopping drugs, c) Stopping music, d) Making the police friends with young people
23) Drug laws are based on?, a) The politics of people like Peter Dunne & Simon Powers , b) The science of people like Peter dunne, c) Policy’s of good faith uninfluenced by the money the liquor industry spends on our politicians d) the cold hard facts
24) Who are the biggest sellers of drugs by volume and value in New Zealand? , a) The supermarkets, b) Black Power, c) Mongrel Mob d) Triads
25) Which drug sellers recently refused to hand over relevant documentation of their commercialisation, and sales data regarding their drugs?, a) The supermarkets, b) Black Power, c) Mongrel Mob, d) The Triads *
26) Does New Zealand have a drug problem Yes/No
27) What is the No1 drug problem in New Zealand a ) Alcohol … get the picture
Next time you hear some idiot let alone an ‘expert’ talking about ‘Alcohol & Drugs’ know that they are talking childish political alice in wonderland rubbish.
We can not have an adult let alone intelligent conversation about ‘drugs’, when the political bullshit artists with their ‘ tough on drugs’ lies distracts us from what should be a blinding obvious truth
Alcohol = New Zealand’s No1 Drug Problem ……. Anything else is just spin and bullshit
National party bullshit which means photoNZ1 will ignore the quiz and keep trolling.
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nznative says “Alcohol = New Zealand’s No1 Drug Problem”
I agree completely.
And there’s a lot more we can do to reduce te problem. Simply enforcing the law of being drunk in a public place would be a good start.
nznative says “National party bullshit which means photoNZ1 will ignore the quiz and keep trolling.”
The reason I ignore your quiz is because you wasted a considerable amount of your time listing things that are blindingly obvious.
None of which means we can’t debate the issues about other drugs.
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photonz, the drunk and disorderly law was tossed out decades ago and reinstituting a law against being drunk in a public place is opposed by the police. They would rather threaten the owners of licensed premises over patrons arriving drunk or leaving drunk – making it difficult for them to bar entry or require people to leave as this causes problems that may result in police prosecuting them.
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very tidy questionaire there nz nztive..
i’m already filled up today..(44 stories/links..)..
..but i’ll throw it up on whoar tomorrow morning…
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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BJ Chip says “I am sure you have a link to some supporting documentation Photonz, but it will be a link to a liar.”
Ah – the old “if it doesn’t line up with my opniion, it has to be wrong” arguement.” Weak – very weak.
Here are the usage rates for the Portuguese population. The first figure percentage use in 2001. The second is for 2007
Prevalence of use at least once in lifetime
Cannabis 7,6 11,7
Cocaine 0,9 1,9
Amphetamines 0,5 0,9
Ecstasy 0,7 1,3
Heroin 0,7 1,1
LSD 0,4 0,6
bj says “Following decriminalization, Portugal had the lowest rate of lifetime marijuana use in people over 15 in the E.U.: 10%. ”
Good try to spin the numbers. You try to con people into thinking that low use is because of decriminalisation.
But you omit the fact cannabis use was even lower before decriminilisation, and went UP by a third after decriminalisation.
Portugal has very low use of most drugs (except heroin) compared to other counties. It had even lower use before decriminilisation.
It did have a horendous heroin problem – it was the most common drug in convictions – more people were convicted for heroin use than cannabis. And it caused a lot of deaths and serious health issues.
Education, decriminalisation and addiction programmes have had a really good impact on heavy users.
If we are to learn from what has happened in Portugal, we need to look at all the changes – good and bad – rather than cherry-pick statistics (and leave out context of previous lower use) so that they back up your preconceived opinion.
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reality check here…nobody has ever died from a cannabis overdose…
..so fucken what if people choose to use it..?
..80% could use it..(and better they did..than use alcohol)and it wouldn’t matter a rats’ arse as far as any arguments against full legalisation are concerned…
2007 the most recent stats you could get/find there photonz…?
..or are you just ‘cherry-picking’..?
..to ‘back up your preconceived opinion’…?
..on a health level…beating harm-tom-toms on pot..
..is as logical as demonising marmite-use…
..phil(whoar.co.nz)
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phil says “reality check here…nobody has ever died from a cannabis overdose…”
Reality check. You cherry pick overdose, but leave out suicides, mental disorders, road accidents, work accidents and lung cancer.
phil asks “2007 the most recent stats you could get/find there photonz…?”
I think you’ve missed the point of the years used. Think about it…
And if you have more up to date rsults that show a big difference to 2007, please share them. Otherwise your argument is meaningless.
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the overall/long-study statistics for people with serious mental disorders shows no increase as a proportion of population since before the widespread use of cannabis…
ditto lung cancer..etc..
..then of course there are the studies into alzheimers…where researchers have noticed what they call the hippy-effect’..
..namely..that heavy users of pot during the 60′s-70′s…are at a time/age the disease is meant to strike…
.. they aren’t getting it….
…plus there are all the already proven health benefits of cannabis…
…can someone else take over dealing with this clowns’ fucken bullshit/lies..
…i am bored with him…
..same old..same old…
..i mean..who the fuck are you talking to here…?
(and no..you don’t have/need to answer that…)
..phil(whoar.co.nz)
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http://whoar.co.nz/?s=portugal+drug+use
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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http://whoar.co.nz/2010/history-of-drugs-narcotics-antiquitushe-deliberate-ingestion-of-things-that-will-make-you-temporarily-batso-goes-back-a-long-way-before-the-17th-century-the-curators-mike-jay-caroline-fisher-and-emily/
“…Adored by the ancients, imbibed by the poets, legitimised by the Victorians: a new exhibition examines the history of drugs.
The illegal drug business is, we know, colossal, gigantic, oceanic.
After arms and oil, it’s the biggest money-spinning market on the planet, pulling in £200bn every year.
And soon we’ll be celebrating, if that’s the word, 50 years of its illegality.
It was in 1961 that the United Nations Single Convention on Narcotic Drugs was launched …
… and we can see how successful that well-meaning organisation has been.
But does anyone think that the phenomenon of people getting off their heads goes back only as far as the early 1960s?
Try this for size.
It’s the report of a dope-fest that took place on the Bay of Biscay in the 1670s, recorded by one Thomas Bowrey, an English sea captain.
He and his friends watched with interest the weird reaction of the locals to a liquid called bhang, made from crushed cannabis pods mixed with milk, and thought they’d try it themselves.
They each bought a pint (for the equivalent of sixpence), locked themselves in a house and knocked it back.
“It Soon tooke its Operation Upon most of us, but merrily, Save upon two of our Number, who I suppose feared it might doe them harme not beinge accustomed thereto.
One of them Sat himselfe downe Upon the floore, and wept bitterly all the Afternoone, the Other terrified with feare did runne his head into a great Mortavan Jarre, and continued in that posture 4 hours or more;…
… 4 or 5 of the number lay upon the Carpets (that were Spread in the roome) highly Complimentinge each Other in high termes, each man fancyinge himself noe lesse than an Emperour.
One was quarrelsome and fought with one of the wooden Pillars of the Porch, until he had left himselfe little Skin upon the knuckles of his fingers.
My Selfe and one more Sat sweating for the Space of 3 hours in Exceeding Measure … ”
Ah yes, how familiar that sounds from one’s happy student days.
But as a new exhibition, High Society: Mind-Altering Drugs in History and Culture, shows …
.. the deliberate ingestion of things that will make you temporarily batso goes back a long way before the 17th century.
The curators, Mike Jay, Caroline Fisher and Emily Sergent, take us back to the chillum pipes, made from puma bones, of 2000BC.
They explain that, in 300BC, Theophrastus, a pal of Sophocles, wrote botanical treatises describing some plants as pharmaka or “intoxicant”; …
… and that, in the early years after the birth of Christ, a chap called Dioscorides listed a thousand drugs in his Materia Medica with descriptions of their properties and effects –
- including the ones that “cause sleep”, “cause frenzies” and “ease pain”.
This book was the standard authority on drugs for a century and a half…” (cont..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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phil says “…plus there are all the already proven health benefits of cannabis…”
Yes – It’s 100% positive, and there’s absolutely no harm whatsoever.
You’d have to be off your head to beleive that – oh you are…
Perhaps it might stop you from getting work for a decade and you become a drain on society.
But I suppose you see someone else working so you don’t have to as 100% positive as well.
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troll loses it…
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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I think the question is how best to police cannabis. Criminalization has not worked to curb use, which I assume is what they wish to achieve. Therefore something else is required.
Despite what a lot of ignorant people believe, decriminalization does not increase usage. So while nothing is going to be 100% effective, the current model has been shown to be less effective than decriminalization and education.
If the Government truly wanted to save the country a lot of money and misery, it would look at proven alternatives.
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Todd says “photonz1, I don’t appreciate your ad hominem personal attacks on Phil u”
I don’t care what you appreciate.
When you have someone who does nothing for years, then complains that he doesn’t get given enough, and he thinks those who do work hard don’t pull their weight and contibute enough to him, then there is a valid complaint.
Funny how those like yourself and phil double-talk about how to curb the use of cannabis, while praising it’s use and benefits.
Todd says “Despite what a lot of ignorant people believe, decriminalization does not increase usage.”
So what caused the big increase in Portugal after decriminalisation?
(a 50% increase on those who used cannabis before decriminalisation)
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photonz1
I suspect phil u does a lot actually. You are not making a complaint concerning the welfare system photonz1, you’re trying to demean phil u for being in receipt of a benefit and making unfounded judgements on his worth. That is called bigotry, and I would assume frog doesn’t appreciate it much either.
The only thing you could justify as me praising Marijuana is that I have said alcohol is a far worse drug. There are a number of issues with inhaling any type of smoke, however that is not the only way people can consume what is essentially a medicinal herb.
Could you supply a link please… or would this be just more bullshit from the bullshit artist known as photonz1?
Following decriminalization, Portugal had the lowest rate of lifetime marijuana use in people over 15 in the E.U.: 10%. The most comparable figure in America is in people over 12: 39.8%. Proportionally, more Americans have used cocaine than Portuguese have used marijuana.
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html
The Cato report’s author, Greenwald, hews to the first point: that the data shows that decriminalization does not result in increased drug use. Since that is what concerns the public and policymakers most about decriminalization, he says, “that is the central concession that will transform the debate.”
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1. You still haven’t provided a link.
2. Reporting illegal drugs use is generally subject to underreporting and the change in policy is significant. The methodology may be the same but the environment for the experiment is different. How was this controlled in the reporting? You NEED To provide a link for me to take those numbers seriously… and you need to consider the link to the damage to the society from those usage rates… which clearly diminished.
3. Drug related CRIME is down.
4. Phil is quite correct about the lack of “bad effects” from Cannabis use.
Reality check. You cherry pick overdose, but leave out suicides, mental disorders, road accidents, work accidents and lung cancer.
Firstly: There is NO known lethal dose of Cannabis. You can die from Aspirin, Alcohol or Nicotine. Not Cannabis.
Second: The effects of the drug make fatal road accidents and work accidents unlikely. Someone who is stoned knows it, and will drive more slowly to match their impairment. The rational judgment that allows us to avoid risk-taking when we are not stoned, is not impaired.
http://www.lovedup.co.uk/scientific_review.html
Third: The links between Cannabis and suicides and mental disorders are tenuous. It is easy to pick the headline number and not pay attention to the statistical contribution of other things… and it is easy to omit the possibility that people will “self-medicate”.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10615730
fourth: Cannabis use and cancer – There WOULD be an independent link if people who smoked Cannabis did not also smoke cigarettes, and if they smoked enough to actually damage their lungs in the process.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_cannabis
http://www.cancernz.org.nz/assets/files/docs/info/CSNZ_IS_SF_cannabis.pdf
Which is less likely, as Cannabis is not physically addictive the way the legal drugs are.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_dependence
______________________________
So your “reality check” bounces off reality. The reality Photonz, is that the powers that be have been lying systematically and comprehensively about the risks of Cannabis and hiding the benefits, for so long that most people don’t know a time when they did not.
Cannabis became illegal when the Feds in the USA, out of work in the depression and still smarting from their defeat in the alcohol prohibition wars, needed something else to justify their continued existence. It had nothing whatsoever to do with risks or damage to the society. The drug war was all about control Photonz, and it began as and remains a policy based on lies.
BJ
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If the drug is actually doing no harm to the society, you cannot measure the harm to the society based on the amount of use.
BJ
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well-elucidated argument there..bj…
will it shut him up..?
..probably not…
..he’ll be back…just saying the same thing again…and again…
..and i am all for people holding/arguing different points of view…
..and opponents can have their valus as a foil to hone/present arguments over..
..whereas trolls like photonz just lie/present distorted-’evidence’..
..just for the hell of it…
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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bj says “Saying it more simply
If the drug is actually doing no harm to the society, you cannot measure the harm to the society based on the amount of use.”
Clearly you haven’t visited a psyche ward lately.
And you have to dismiss suicide related to cannabis as unimportant.
And deaths and injuries from road accidents
BJ says “Third: The links between Cannabis and suicides and mental disorders are tenuous.”
The Otago uni study has found that mental disorders lead to increased cannabis use in teenagers up to 18.
Above 18 the effect is reversed, and they found a causal link showing cannabis use leads to mental disorders.
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BJ asks “1. You still haven’t provided a link.”
http://www.idt.pt/PT/IDT/Documents/Ponto_Focal/2009_NationalReport.pdf
Page 18 has overall usage rates for Portugal for 2001 and 2007.
The have far fewer problems with serious use of heroin, though overall usage is up, as is cocaine, cannabis, etc.
As I’ve said. We need to look at Portugal intelligently – what has worked and what hasn’t, what has improved and what hasn’t.
They have some big improvements in some areas, but higher overall usage for many drugs.
But you are totally blinkered about it.
You are so narrow minded that when something doesn’t conform to your preconceived idea, you instantly label it “lies”, without the slightest knowledge of the research, where it came from or who did it.
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bjchip said: Firstly: There is NO known lethal dose of Cannabis. You can die from Aspirin, Alcohol or Nicotine. Not Cannabis.
Actually, erowid.org in its MSDS’s lists an estimated LD50 for THC (the dose at which a substance is fatal in 50% of users) at roughly 100mg/kg in studies on rats when injected intravenously. Assuming this can be translated directly to humans smoking cannabis (and that is a pretty big assumption) an 80kg human would need to ingest 8,000 mg to reach this dose. Erowid also states that the average dosage ingested from a joint is 5mg THC. So in order to reach the LD50 said human would need to smoke something in the order of 1600 joints in one session. 1600 joints!
Link: http://www.erowid.org/psychoactives/health/psychoactives_ld50s.shtml
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photonz1
One attributing factor in any supposed increased usage is that with decriminalization, more drug users will come forward which could skew any relevant data to show more prevalence when this is not the case.
In fact the administrative infraction for marijuana increased markedly after the 2001 decision, but the general use of marijuana decreased.
From the Cato report:
From the Reitox report:
Page 17
Reitox Conclusion
Page 127:
Offences
It is interesting that there is contradictory data in the Reitox report you linked to. Perhaps the data is specific to the targeted group which is not defined in the graph.
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“..1600 joints..’…eh…?
makes my eyes red..and gives me the munchies…just thinking about it…
need volunteers..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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It’d get tricky to keep count after the first coupla hundred? Makes you think of all those fatal near-misses people have dodged.
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Thanks Lats, there used to be no known LD50 and I remember that well enough from when I was in Uni and they were first bringing the law in.
Back then, they were lying and it was so obvious that nobody took them seriously. Now only those of us who remember that time are aware that the lying continues.
Photonz – There is no statistical significance to the suicides – at best there COULD be. Maybe. You have to read the whole thing, not the headlines. No statistical significance makes it dead certain that there is damned little, if anything, in it. The scare rags you are perusing they are simply the usual shitty lying ratbag authoritarian rags that have existed since I first encountered this.
Promoted by the same people who were offended by our “loss” in Vietnam, who wanted any excuse to lock up protesters. The same people who lost the prohibition battle. The same people who have never been happy seeing others enjoying themselves. Blue-nosed stickybeaks. They lie. They have always lied.
BJ
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the real danger of death from marijuana wd be if a bale of it fell on yr head…
..from a height…
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Secondly Photonz, I am far more familiar with the insides of the Psych wards than you likely suspect. The people there as a result of smoking MJ would be a really really small fraction.
The experience at Uni was more informative. There the usage was immense and the frequency of adverse outcomes negligible. People smoked and graduated cum-laude, going on to med-school. The clarity of the lie is thus, for me, crystalline. You are blowing smoke here. The suicide thing IN PARTICULAR is false.
The harm done by cannabis vs the harm done by its being illegal is in proportion of the mouse to the elephant, yet the elephant shies away from the mouse.
BJ
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The financial house of cards is shakier than anyone knew…
http://sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/news/?id=9e2a4ea8-6e73-4be2-a753-62060dcbb3c3
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Chicken or egg situation..those bought up in dysfunction/abuse/poverty may well turn to mind-altering substances in an attempt to escape their demons…issues are gonna be there regardless of indulging or not.
My brother refused to talk to me for two years as he considered me a “Druggie” for smoking a bit of weed, despite the fact I was University educated, well-travelled, kind to animals etc, etc. At the inquest into his death 5 years ago, the Coroner found zero evidence of any drug in his system, a clear case of death by hanging.
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Hmmm…. I got to reading the report underlying the Senator and the lying part seems to dominate. Basically he is miscounting the loans. No 16 Trillion went out that back door.
So we are merely back to being as badly off as we always knew we were, not in the position he paints. Sorry folks, I should have read the underlying report before posting that tidbit. The Senator is either a fool or a liar.
…or more likely… both.
BJ
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Todd says “One attributing factor in any supposed increased usage is that with decriminalization, more drug users will come forward which could skew any relevant data to show more prevalence when this is not the case.”
I agree. Though that should stop having much of an effect in ongoing surveys since 2001.
Jackal says “It is interesting that there is contradictory data in the Reitox report you linked to.”
Not necessarily contradictory. Like the cato report, it says there has been little increase and even decreases among teenagers, even though overall use is up.
Which is what I’ve said all along. There are positive AND negative effects in Portugal.
So it’s very easy to cherry-pick results to fit any predetermined outcome you want.
But what is needed is to work out what has created the positive outcomes and what has created the negative outcomes.
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photonz1
Incorrect again photonz1. Just in case you missed it, here’s the Reitox Conclusion again:
And here’s the relevant part of the Cato report’s Conclusion:
It’s not cherry picking results, that’s the two reports conclusions plain as day. Drug use decreasing is the reality of the situation in Portugal after decriminalization. Therefore there’s a proven positive effect from decriminalization. The other positive aspect is there are less deaths. Maybe you need to go off and have a rethink concerning your position.
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Jackal says “Incorrect again photonz1. Just in case you missed it, here’s the Reitox Conclusion again:”
Wrong (there’s a clue that a “conclusion” less than a quarter of the way through the report, over 100 pages before the end, is not the reports conclusion).
Your quote applies to just the youngest 10% of the people in the survey.
And if you look at the actual figures, some drug use like cannabis is fractionally down in 18 yr olds (27% down to 25%), overall use for 18 yr olds is fractionally down (28% to 26%), but other drugs are up. i.e. cocaine use doubled ( 1.4% – 2.9%), lsd up (2 – 2.5%), heroin doubled (0.8% – 2%)
Jackal says “Drug use decreasing is the reality of the situation in Portugal after decriminalization.”
Funny that you can take a report that says overall illegal drug use in Portugal has gone from 7.8% in 2001 to 12% in 2007 and say that’s a decrease
If you take the figures for the whole population – instead of just 10% of it – drug use has increased.
(2001 and 2007 in %)
Any illicit drug 7,8 12,0
Cannabis 7,6 11,7
Cocaine 0,9 1,9
Amphetamines 0,5 0,9
Ecstasy 0,7 1,3
Heroin 0,7 1,1
LSD 0,4 0,6
Jackal says ” Therefore there’s a proven positive effect from decriminalization.”
You assumption that this is due to decriminalisation ignores the fact that millions have been spent on education, and millions more putting 25,000 people a year into addition programmes (up from 6000 before decriminalisation).
Wiki has a good summation of what has improved and what has got worse
(see the observations at the bottom)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal
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photnonz1
There is no reliable information about drug use, injecting behaviour or addiction treatment in Portugal before 2001, when general population surveys commenced. The only information about drug use before that time was the indicators on lifetime prevalence amongst youth, collected as part of the European School Survey Project on Alcohol and Other Drugs (ESPAD).
Drug use has decreased amongst youth the Reitox report said, while the only data prior to 2001 was for youth. So the conclusion is very relevant.
However since you take exception to where that conclusion is placed in the report, here is another conclusion within the Reitox report:
Conclusion – Page 53
Results from national estimations on problematic drug use in Portugal indicate that there are between 6.2 and 7.4 problematic drug users for each 1 000 inhabitants aged 15-64 years, and between 1.5 and 3.0 for injecting drug users.
Between 2000 and 2005, the estimate number of problematic drug users in Portugal has shown a clear decline, with special relevance for injecting drug users.
After you just get finished saying there’s no decrease, you say there is a decrease and it’s due to education and addiction programmes, something your tory mates have been cutting left right and centre in New Zealand.
You may have missed this bit in the wiki link:
Care must be taken in interpreting this result as it may be down to the lessening of stigma surrounding non medical drug use, leading interviewees to give more honest answers, and against the rising use in neighbouring Spain.
So there is a clear indication that decriminalization and education coupled with rehabilitation programmes allows for a significant decrease in drug use in both prevalence and amount. Any recent increase in specific age groups can be attributed to a general increase in that region of the world and/or more likelihood that interviewees are honest about their drug use because of less stigma and possible consequences attached.
This has in fact changed my mind on the issue. Whereas before I was in favour of decriminalization for marijuana alone, I now think that the blanket decriminalization approach to all drugs would be more effective at reducing problematic drug use. However such an approach would need to include education and increased education and rehab facilities.
The current model is obviously not working. The Portugal model has been shown to be effective with a strong initial decline in drug use.
photonz1, cherry picking targeted specific data to try and override the Reitox reports conclusions does not prove your argument. It just proves that you’re an idiot! We all knew that already.
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Jackal says “So there is a clear indication that decriminalization and education coupled with rehabilitation programmes allows for a significant decrease in drug use in both prevalence and amount.”
An overall increase of illicit drug use in Portugal from 7.8% of the population in 2001, to 12% in 2007…is a “decrease” according to Jackal.
The cannabis use increase from 7.8% to 11.7% is a “decrease” according to Jackal.
The cocaine doubling from 0.9% to 1.9% is a “decrease” according to Jackal.
The heroin increase from 0.7% to 1.1% is a “decrease” according to Jackal.
If you leave out 90% of the population, you can point to a decrease for some drugs (and an increase for others) in one small segment.
Certainly deaths and serious health issues from heroin have dropped significantly – as I’ve already stated many times (so I don’t know why you bring up this point, as if it somehow contradicts what I say)
But cocaine use has gone up significantly.
Even the Cato report you link to shows teenage drug use has gone down a little, but for early 20s has gone up significantly. (figure 6, p14).
Jackal says “After you just get finished saying there’s no decrease…,”
Try reading what I actually say – not what you think I say in your head.
I’ll repeat, for the umpteenth time – There have been decreases in some use, particularly serious heroin abuse, and increases in other areas, including cocaine and cannabis and overall use of all illicit drugs by the whole population.
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Jack – interesting you include a wiki quote “against the rising use in neighbouring Spain.”
Why do you think drug use is rising in Spain?
As personal drug use is dercriminalised in Spain, that goes against your arguement.
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The conclusions in both those reports included the entire population photonz1. Both reports said drug use had overal declined since decriminalization. Picking and choosing what information you believe does not discount their findings.
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Jackal – please tell me how overall drug use by 12% of the popultion is LESS than overall drug use by 7.8% of the popultion.
You can only show decreases when you a/ remove 90% of the population, and b/ remove half the drug types.
And you failed to explain why drug use is going up in Spain, when it’s not a crinimal offense for personal use.
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That’s the conclusions of the reports photonz1. You need to ask the author why there is a discrepancy within the Reitox report, not me. The conclusions are what is important, not a part of one of the reports you base your entire argument on.
Please define your question concerning Spain properly? If I have time, I will do my best at searching for the information you require. Otherwise you can always look for it yourself.
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I would hazard a guess that the high levels of unemployment in Spain impact on marijuana use levels not the legal situation.
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