by frog
We do have a chance to do the new, green, environmentally sound, fantastically state-of-the-art, 21st-century place, that will attract the brains and the thinkers of the world to come and live here
That’s former Christchurch mayor Garry Moore quoted in today’s papers under the headline ‘Better, safer, city will emerge from ruins, former mayors say’.
So what steps exactly would make this vision a reality? The same story quotes Gary Moore again:
We lost a lot of our beauty and that has to be rebuilt, in a modern way. That would mean wooden, eco, three-storeyed buildings. I don’t want to see a brick building ever again
Ok, wooden construction, low-rise buildings. What else?
Remember that at least 755 central city buildings face demolition according to current estimate. And there’s many thousands of residential homes that will also need to replaced.
Published in Environment & Resource Management by frog on Mon, February 28th, 2011
Tags: Christchurch earthquake, green construction, green party new zealand, urban renewal
on the trolls and those who are unable to keep on topic
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I think we can probably go higher than three storeys in wood these days. One of the misconceptions about wood is the perceived fire risk. But with good plaster board protection of light framing timber, the fire risk is probably not much greater than in reinforced concrete or steel buildings. Heavy wooden beams don’t actually burn that easily.
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A loose approach to city ‘blocks’ with random plantings of masses of cabbage trees and other vegetation native to the area, weaving though the streets and across and through the old square grid layout.
Walk ways through and adjacent to these plantings so it is possible to not only walk along old streets, but also following green corridors diagonally across the old CBD, greatly enhancing the efficiency of foot and cycle traffic.
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Your post is right though. This is a massive opportunity and something like what Shunda proposes would be wonderful.
We just need to get through the next few days, bury our dead before we can really get down to the nitty, gritty of the design and rebuild of Christchurch.
I hope the Greens are vociferous in their support (despite me being a Nat) for a relevant, sustainable, “green” city. Chances like this don’t come again.
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Wooden beams and trusses have a higher fire rating then steel as the time taken to burn right through to collapse is much longer then steel.
Unless that steel is wrapped in an insulating wool or fibre blanket (or multi layers of gib board) it will collapse much quicker then a wooden building.
Intumescent paint greatly increases the fire retardancy off structural timber and wooden wall claddding (or gib board) when used under conventional paints.
Conventional acrylic paints wont sustain a fire in any case but wont prevent heat penetrating to the substrate like intumescent paint does.
Be mindful that the New Zealalnd fire code is not designed to prevent building from burning, its’ primary function is the safe egress of building occupiers.
Hence reliance on smoke alarms, smoke stop doors, safe passageways, fire egress stairs, fire insulated steel, etc.
Biggest problem in a building fire is not so much the correctly built building but the furniture.
Polyurethane foam, fabric, custom wood, etc, burn and generate far more smoke initially then the building will.
And smoke kills primarily, not the fire.
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Thanks for the added info, Gerrit – pretty much as I thought, although I have no claim to expertise in this area.
Any comments on how the various building materials behave in a gas explosion, which is presumably the most likely cause of fire consequent on an earthquake?
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Shunda – having had a few cabbage trees on my lawns in the past, I can tell you that they play merry hell with your mower if they’re not picked up. And a lot (read: bloody heaps!) fall down. Continually.
Fear not X Chequer!! there will be no lawns!!!! red tussocks, gossamer grasses, carex, and hebes, it will be a glorious mass of moving swirling vegetation without a blade of brown top, festuca, or rye grass in sight!
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No lawns in the Garden City!!
Have you taken leave of your senses Mr Barunda???
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Mmmmmmm. No lawns in a city that prides itself on parks, community spaces and being English – like.
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Yeah! I’m sick of mowing the lawn to. Personally I would go for a pressurized form pressed composite material and a light weight wooden interior with cementing joists built right into the structure for additional floors and walls. With a single beam policy, really good double glazing and a floating base, that would withstand pretty much anything you could throw at it. Exterior light weight cladding could be made to resemble existing styles and possibly use similar materials as we use today. Development cost would be more though and I’m not sure how you could do that with environmental ideals in mind.
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Have you taken leave of your senses Mr Barunda???
My influences have changed! A dude from Riverton has shown me another way.
But there will be grass,…. tussock grass!
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Toad,
I think in future all buildings on the gas supply line should have mandatory gas detection equipment installed.
We use them on the boat for safety reasons (even being super mindful to turn gas off at the bottle after use, one can never be too careful).
Gas detectors would pick up gas levels way before they become explosive, however they wont be of too much use during an earthquake.
I dont think you can build any real good defence against a voltile gas that can creap undetected through every nook and crany.
Best is detection equipment.
Maybe the addition of a far more turgently aromatic odour in the gas would be useful for the human nose to detect a gas leak way earlier.
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It could be a different kind of garden city, beautiful, low-maintenance and a source of pride in a different kind of appearance. I know that Napier was a vastly different situation, but that brave step not to try to recreate the past has helped to create a unique place.
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Garry has certainly changed his tune. In his Perspective piece in The Press ten days after the 7.1 he argued against modern earthquake standards because old brick buildings were perfectly safe if they had been strengthened to “minimum requirement of the earthquake strengthening code”.
Now he is banging on about 3 storey wooden buildings. With his long history of denigrating engineers who don’t agree with him he should be ignored as the ignoramus that he is. From the outside the two office towers that collapsed closely resemble the ground floor of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building and would probably have benefitted from the same seismic strengthening approach.
http://www.bfrl.nist.gov/861/861pubs/collapse/workshop/5.WorkshopSlides(Murrah%20Bldg).pdf
It will be foolish to abandon the thermal mass benefits of concrete just because of the kneejerk reaction of some hasbeen property developer politician. Even worse to ignore the collective knowledge of the NZ Society of Earthquake Engineers regarding th role of building height in seismic performance.
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“Fear not X Chequer!! there will be no lawns!!!! red tussocks, gossamer grasses, carex, and hebes, it will be a glorious mass of moving swirling vegetation without a blade of brown top, festuca, or rye grass in sight!”
So…Christchurch’s next catastrophe will come in the form of a massive prairie fire?
And with all those wooden buildings being proposed…
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Shunda for Lord Mayor of the Garden City!
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(I’m serious!)
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nah..!..he wd start a pogrom on ‘undeserving-beneficiaries’..
..and wouldn’t exactly see the rich with their tax cuts as such…
..it’d be a case of kick-the-poor…
he wd be positvely eager to crack that beneficiary-whip..
..phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Lol @ G/fly. Very good
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No Phil!, I will seek to restore dignity and self worth to these people, give them hope for the future and a better life for their kids. They will devote their lives to rewarding and meaningful labour and climb from their lowly position to be among the most dignified and respected citizens of the city!
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“..They will devote their lives to rewarding and meaningful labour and climb from their lowly position..’
well..y’see..there’s half yr problem there…
..’cos i actually believe that raising children as best you can…
..is ‘rewarding and meaningful labour’..
whereas..it is clear that you do not…
and i would also view those same parents..doing the best job they can..
..(y’know..!..libraries are (still) free…)
as ‘among the most dignified and respected citizens of the city!..”
(need i start listing the ‘working’-scumbags..?..
..pawn-shops..?..anyone..?)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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and all of you lot with yr ‘day-care/wk’-solutions can just go get fucked too..
i was an early model of that…
..what wd be illegal now…and what was known then as a latch-key kid..
..both my parents worked…
..and wouldn’t be home ’till after about 6 at night…
..i hated going home to an empty/cold house…
(esp. in winter..when it got dark so early…)
..and..it’s hardly dickensian-horror-story..
..but at that time..i vowed that no child of mine would experience that…
..and they haven’t..
..and there are two questions that usually shut the bashers up…
.they are…what do we do with the children during the many school holidays…?
..and..
how wd you feel about working…if after you earned $85…
..85% of the income from yr 20 hrs…was clawed back..
..so for each $100 you earn…
…you get to keep $15…
…seems fair..eh..?
you just haven’t got a fucken clue..99% of you..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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and apologies for going off-topic frog..
feel free to move it all to gen thread..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Shunda for Lord Mayor (in charge of gardens only) of the Garden City!
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“Chances like this don’t come again.”
Fingers crossed and hope you weren’t listening to the kaumatua at Waitangi!
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phil – should that be filed under reason #249 not to work? – (or is it #248?)
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Be interesting to total up the value of 20 odd years of welfare that a certain person with bad punctuation has had.
From free education to free parenting.
How much in extra tax did the workers have to provide over the 20 odd years?
I guess the only problem will be how he will mange to transition from when his kids leave their education and he no longers gets their welfare payments, to when he turns 65 and gets the super he has not contributed to.
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Another thing I’d do it put in more streets. Much of Christchurch was laid out when sections were 1/4 of an acre, with streets the right distance apart for that, and when people built more houses to increase the density, they ended up with long driveways and lots of houses tucked away on back sections. If you put in more streets so that almost every house has a street frontage, it will be easier to walk around and easier for neighbourhood communities to function, and having more public streets is more efficient use of land than every seconh house having its own long private driveway. Also, make the streets a bit narrower while you’re at it, to discourage hooning.
Another thing they should do is map out the areas with the most liquefaction-prone soils, and turn them into parkland and woodland. To add more character to the suburbs, you could even put the boundaries of these parks along the actual boundaries of the areas of liquefaction-prone land, so you get irregular boundaries that reflect the way the land was formed by the rivers.
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y’know..!..all sneering/ad hominems to one side..
..what are your answers to those two questions…?..phot-onz..”
the holidays/85%-questions..?
try to address the subject..eh..?
have you spent a lot of time at kiwiblog..?
and why do you have to have a secret-name..?
you really important..?..
..or just ashamed to be known by yr words..?
.no rightwinger has ever been able to answer those two questions..
..they just slide into slurs/ad-hominems…
..try and address those two questions/issues..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Phil wrote: “..both my parents worked…..and wouldn’t be home ’till after about 6 at night…..i hated going home to an empty/cold house…”
Interesting. It was the same in my family, and I don’t remember particularly dreading going home to an empty, cold house.
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more slurring lies from the right..eh gerrit..?
that’s all you morons are capable of..
fwiw..i have only received state support for my son..
..and my education was not ‘free’..
care to lay out yr personal circumstances for us all to run our fingers thru..there gerritt..?
..what is yr full name..?
..why are you anonymous..?
…vip..?..or shame..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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and gerritt..i start working at about 5.00 am each/every morning..
it’s called http://whoar.co.nz/
try opening/sanitising yr mind…
or will fox do ya..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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That is not a monetary answer!!!!
How much revenue does your web site generate to lessen the tax payers burden?
20 years on welfare and not a single ounce of guilt?
Hopefully your boy will get a tax paying job soon and keep you in the pension.
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Anyone with a bit of nouce can find me and what I do.
Except for family benefit payments for the first two kids have never received welfare from the state.
Long time Engineers union member until entering the corporate scene.
Now semi retired with four very successful kids, doing what I do best in the engineering field.
Freehold assets and cash reserves valued at over the seven figure mark.
Know enough yet?
Want to know about all the crappy night or double shifts I worked? Or the danger money received for working on tall buildings 30 storey up?
Ever lived on NoDoz tablets?
Want to know about all the 4.30am starts to catch a plane to Australia and returning home after midnight for a crappy corporate day meeting?
Christ, I earned every cent by having to fly into Wellington with a southerly pumping through the airport and the plane coming in sideways.
Heart attack material for no extra pay.
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phil – it’s all dictated by attitude.
You can find solutions to school holidays and childcare problems, like the everyone else does.
Or you can put the effort into finding 249 reasons why you couldn’t possibly work.
Just like the two people interviewed the other night in the Chch water queue.
One was jubilant and hugely appreciative that they were being supplied with free water and was getting supplies for his neighbours.
The other was having a big winge that the water took to long to come and the authorities were useless because they hadn’t supplied her with food or portloos or money.
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free education there..eh gerritt..?
d’yareckon it’s fair that ladder was ripped away for those following you..?
did ya plug into that sweet deal for yr first house…?
..(y’know..!..yr first step on the property-ladder..?..remember..?.)
..d’yareckon it’s fair that ladder has been ripped away from those that followed you..?
..young at a time of full employment/maximum/multiple-choices…eh..?
d’ya reckon it’s the same for young people now..?
..is it crowded up there..gerritt..?
..wot with all those pulled-up ladders..eh..?
..rich boomers sneering at the current poor..
..eh..?
excuse me while i projectile-puke all over you..
..ya pompous prick..
…eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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and of course you won’t/wouldn’t take the pension..eh..?
a man of your means..obviously dosen’t need it…eh..?
and if you did take it..
..it would just make yr imprecations on those really in need…
…even more of a sick/double-standard joke…
..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Sweat deal on the first house?
Earning $55 (sole income) after tax and repaying $25 on the morgage.
Yet we managed and prospered.
And guess what?
Our kids are propspering too!!!!
Two in good paying jobs, two in their own successful businesses.
No help up for them from the baby boomers except to be taught free thinking, hard work and independence.
No welfare for them either.
You puke up all you like, my distain for you is only multiplied by your statement.
Wonder what attitudes your boy will grow up with.
Lets hope he beats the welfare trap you raised him with.
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And I will take the pension so that I can invest the money into private enterprise and provide a job for your son so as to let him beat the welfare trap you have taught him.
Ands any pension I receive will be less to distribute into your pocket so that feel good.
Only another 5 years to go for the pension, roll on!!!!!
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Children! You know who you are. Consider yourselves warned.
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capitalised those welfare payments for yr first deposit..eh..?
and you cd live on one income then…eh..?
..and the wife looked after school holidays and such..eh..?
and i just love the loop-de-loop you did to justify taking the pension…
..that you boast to us you don’t need..
..eh..?
you are going to ‘re-invest’ it..eh..?
to ‘provide jobs’..?
..eh..?
you’d be old enough to know the saying..
..’if bullshit were tarseal…you’d be the great sth rd…’
..eh..?
and my son does brilliantly at school..
..and has been put into an advanced maths class…
..so…yknow..!
..’where the sun don’t shine..’
..eh..?
and..so..gerritt..
yr ‘successful children’..
scenario:…marriage break-up/tragedy means yr son has to care for his children/yr grandchildren..
..they are young children..
..to be able to do that job justice..
..he goes on a domestic purposes benefit..
does he then automatically become one of the bludging-scum you are so contemptuous of..?
..or wd nothing like that ever happen to you/them…?
..good luck with that wish/smug-arrogance..eh..?
..and you never did answer the free-education/housing-ladders question..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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I disagree, it is a serious matter that, while debased into a tittle tattle, highlights an underlying problem.
The problem of welfare sustainability. How can we have one person on welfare for near on 20 years while others have to work (and work bloody hard) to pay the taxes to enable this.
It is one one count simply not fair and on another totally unsustainable.
BJ and photonz are at the taxation meme on another posting and perhaps this is where this debate belongs.
It is not a childish debate for it highlights the anger tax payers are feeling when the safety net they happily (or self interestingly) pay taxes for (in case they need it themselves) is abused by someone blatently milking the system for lifestyle choise.
Luckily there are enough tax payers in New Zealand at present to enable the leaches to suck the system, but you know just as well as I do that economically (and with the CHCH earthquake even more so) is unsustainable.
Maybe you need to start a thread that explores a sustainable taxation system where bloodsuckers can flourish.
Be interesting to say the least.
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“..No help up for them from the baby boomers except to be taught free thinking, hard work and independence…”
oh..!..and ‘the wife’ to take care of all that after-school/holiday-stuff…eh..?
..do you know the meaning of the word hubris..?
..everyone has a word…
..that one is yours..
and could i ask you to stop that fucken lie that i have been on welfare for 20 yrs…
..lets talk about yr education-welafare…
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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so..you suck the big education freebie at the start…
(..and the house-start freebie…)
..and the pension-freebie at the end..eh..?
..yr career as a welfare-mum/’leach’(sic) is quite tidily book-ended..
..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Gerrit, phil, I have no problems with the topic, just don’t let it descend into a simple name calling match, or I will intervene further.
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I’m pretty sure this post thread is about what a better Christchurch means to you, it’s not about beneficiary bashing or personal attacks. A better Christchurch to me would mean a foundation of humanitarian and social harmony that does not discriminate against anybody. In effect you can apply what I would like to see Christchurch become, to what I want New Zealand to become. I do not want to see this country develop into an intolerant and self interested nation that does not care about the poor or dispossessed.
We’re very lucky in this country in that we have the ability to look after everybody. Doing so does not limit peoples ability to earn lots and become wealthy. New Zealand can allow everybody to achieve a quality of existence irrespective of race, age, intelligence, wealth and beliefs etc. Having an effective welfare state is all about making sure we all move into a brighter future together. Giving people the ability to achieve through equality, makes us all stronger and more resilient to the adversities that we will face in the future.
If the rich disregard the poor, they to will be left wanting. If we all do not prosper together, then that is not real prosperity, it is a singularity and elitism based on the ego. I would prefer to be a part of the human race, not an elitist that does not understand the principles that are the foundations this country is built on.
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i think we are just about done..
..he has no answers…
..when their irrational double-standards are laid bare..
..they usually just beat the feet…
..you’ll note he never answered the getting $15 from every hundred you earn..either..
..he answered none of it..
..and only had general sneers…
..whereas i feel mine were more nuanced/targeted …
…more studied-insults..
..that..i think..hit home…
..if not for him..
..maybe for readers..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Aghree with your sentiments 100%.
My problem is with people who take advantage for over 20 years of a welfare system that is not sustainable.
Tax me at a higher rate to pay for a sustainable welfare system, that is fine.
Tax me at a higher rate to help the people of Christchurch get back their infastructure and lifely hood, that is fine.
But dont tax me for my work so that others can sit around on welfare for 20 years (smoking dope?) while I struggle to pay the bills and put food on the table.
Dont ever do that.
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and of course..gerritt..being the big earner he is..
..also got that recent whopping tax cut…
..paid for by gst on the poor/rest of us…
..and by borrowing $120 million per week…
..(gee..!..that makes fiscal-sense…eh..?..)
..but hey..!
a beneficiary-witch-hunt will make us all feel better..eh..?
..it’s so nice to have a powerless scapegoat to kick around..eh..?
..to sit in judgment on..
..and to find wanting..
gee..!..i wonder if gerritt is a christian..?
..they do that a lot…eh..?
and if so..has he joined the dots yet..?
..has he realised yet that his punitive-policies/wishes for sole-mothers..
..help drive our world-beating abortion rates..?
..how does that sit on his conscience..?
..or does he have them tidily separated/cauterised from each other..?
..as so many rightwing/beneficiary-bashing christians seem to…
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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see how he has no answers to all those questions..?
just more preaching/imprecations..
..meh..!
..my work here is nearly done..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Gerrit
If I had time, I would do a cost comparison between fraudulent beneficiaries and fraudulent white-collar crime. Clearly reducing welfare to all dependants because of a few fraudsters is not a very good argument. You should instead argue for better measures to detect and discourage fraudulent behaviour. This applies to welfare and businesses alike.
It would seem that you are arguing for equality there as well. There will always be a percentage of people who take advantage of whatever system they are in. I do not mean to imply that you take advantage btw Phil u… From what I understand you do pretty well considering the circumstances. Staying clean and your website is a case in point. My argument is that people in business take advantage just as much as people on welfare, even though the need is more apparent for the welfare dependent.
I would say tax me to create a fair and equitable system that looks after everybody, but don’t tax me so that rich businessmen can get bailed out when they don’t really need my tax dollars. Tax me when a city crumbles and thousands of people are displaced and they require relief through welfare quickly without any obstacles, but don’t tax me to give more money to people who don’t need it like politicians, to stump up their already excessive wages. Equality within taxation is all about who can afford it the most.
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there was just an astonishing hatchet-job on ken ring by john campbell..
i hold no particular brief for ring…
..but feel the accuracy of his prediction of the 14th..
..(which campbell chose not to mention..(!)..w.t.f. not..?
..he just quoted from a preamble from ring..(!)
i actually tuned in hoping to hear ring explain just how came to that specific-conclusion..
..but campbell just launched into him..
..calling him a scare-monger..and a ‘liar’..(!)
..sneered at him because he has no academic-qualifications in that subject..(!)
..the contempt from campbell was palpable..and somewhat surprising..
..then there is rings’ prediction for a big one in the alpine-fault..on/about the 20th march…
.i was hoping campbell would ask him for why..?
..and let him explain..
..but no..
..it was a shocking bit of bullying/biased-media from campbell..
..as i said..i hold no brief for ring..
..i just wanted to hear what he has to say..
..campbell didn’t allow him to do that…
..and it was certainly a nadir for campbell..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Todd is right, let’s wrap up the beneficiary tangent and get back on topic, thanks.
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(ahem..!..)..you haven’t done a general debate thread since the 19th…frog..
what was that three-day-duration-promise you made not that long ago..?
..anyway..this bene-bashing exercise is gone is over…
(he’ll think twice before repeating..)
..i have to roar in support/defence of the stigmatised….
..both cos’ i am one of them…
..and ‘cos nobody else really does..eh..?
..phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Events, phil, events. Will get one up soon.
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Didn’t see it, but Edwards certainly agrees:
http://brianedwardsmedia.co.nz/2011/02/john-campbell-tonight-you-were-a-disgrace-to-the-interviewers-trade/
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and re christchurch…
didn’t/hasn’t the media done a pretty crap job so far…?
just sitting outside that art gallery…
..like a herd of sheep…
..showing the same clips over and over again..
(earthquake porn..?..anyone..?..)
..and waiting for their turn with lens-addict parker..
(tv3 reporter 2nite said after finally getting parker to pause the platitudes enough to pull the plug..
..said back to the studio-anchor..’that mayor parker eh..?..you almost have to wrestle the camera from him’..
(so it’s not just me who thinks parker is a tad over-fond of the lens..)
..and can he bang on..or what..?
..it dosen’t even really matter what he is asked..
…he just bangs on about what wonderful people christchurchians…are..
..trowels on bucket-loads of simplistic-platitudes..
..and the whole thing is peppered with repeated-urgings to ‘boil water!’…
…i wd happily never ever see/hear parker again..
..and while the media were doing that..
..the foreign media were showing them up..
..by going out and finding their own stories..
..and not just relying on the spoon-feeds/read-outs from parker…
..and those unfortunates shackled to him…
..and meanwhile..it is day six before the media realise there is a world past the front of the art-gallery/cordoned-cbd…
..and it is out in the (especially poor) suburbs…
..where all the other stories are/were..
..better six days later than never..i suppose…
..and as for what is coming up for christchurch..?
..it’s called winter…
..phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Here is my honest opinion on what should happen with the rebuilding of Christchurch.
First of all, there should be no major buildings constructed until there is a Royal Commission of Inquiry on this earthquake. We had relatively new buildings collapse and others become unstable as a result of what was not a very high magnitude earthquake. We cannot afford to build anything until the earthquake regulations have been updated to take into account the lessons learnt from this earthquake.
Second of all, now is perhaps an opportunity to secure a better transport future for Christchurch. When the railway was originally built, Christchurch had already been reasonably developed and as such, they did not want the railway line to enter the township. This resulted in a line that was at the outskirts of the CBD, and probably meant that Christchurch’s suburban rail services never really had a chance (the lack of services also did not help). Now with much of the CBD destined for demolition, perhaps we can fix the mistake of the former Canterbury Provincial Council and put a twin track surface level railway (or at the very least designate a corridor for such) through the CBD. Ideally, that corridor would go along Durham Street and Papanui Road.
Finally, I am of the view that the rest of the rebuilding of Christchurch (that is outside of the major civic buildings and infrastructure) should be done as the owners of the property feel that they can build space that would meet demand. There is no point in pushing for a whole heap of office space or a whole heap of apartments when there might not be the immediate demand. I don’t think that there would be a need to limit development in the CBD in terms of height provided that the earthquake regulations are brought up to scratch.
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Earthquake porn! Unfortunately I have to agree with you there Phil u, I can hardly watch it anymore. I also found it rather annoying that the interviews on the 6 O’clock news tonight, of so called people on the street, concerning the governments plan to help Christchurch pay for the Earthquake, were all glowing and lapping it up… Not one word of dissent.
Now where is that video clip of Brownlee saying “the Greens think we would all be more prosperous if everybody had a shovel in their hands.” How ironic! One of the first things I would like to see for Christchurch, is some better reporting by the main networks.
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liquification…liqufication…liqufication…
..you can’t do anything to prevent liquifacation…
..those areas where all that is worst..
..will have to be de-housed….and turned into parks/forests/open-ground/w.h.y…
..(and it seems to me this is the mainly poor/working-class areas…?..)
..it is only the solid parts that can be built on…
..to just rebuild on that permanently unstable goo wd be utter madness…
…this is one of the first decisions to be made…
(and gee..!..you’d be feeling good living/working in one of those sixties/seventies buildings..in say..wellington…eh..?..
..that wellington earthquake-inevitabilty black humor has now a slightly more brittle edge to it..eh..?)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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LET’S LIVE IN TENTS!!!
Earthquake Porn? I am very glad that you raised that issue Phil because I suspect that this media blanket coverage may not have the good intent that it is purported to be.
It could very well have devastating psychological not only on the listener (causing depression)but also the broardcasters who must be going through hell.
I have stopped listening to radio NZ for that very reason, I got very depressed so I turned over to solid gold and the old saying is true music soothes the soul.
As for a vision of a new earthquake proof Christchurch; how about if we all go back to living in tents!!!!
You would be suprised how warm a tent can be in winter and if fell on top of you then what the hell?
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“..I got very depressed so I turned over to solid gold and the old saying is true music soothes the soul…”
that is very true drakula..
..and even provable..
http://whoar.co.nz/2011/need-a-quick-endorphins-boost-have-some-music/
i stopped/watching/listening on saturday afternoon..
..and that aft/evening..and the next afternoon…
..treated my neighbours to my excellent..if eclectic..musical tastes/selections…
..an arc from hank williams to the white stripes..
..with much inbetween…
..and some i hadn’t heard for awhile…i’m looking at you..stevie wonder…
..certainly did that endorphins-trick…
..and sly..!..you always do it…
..”let me take you higher’..’everyday people’..
..’bom’lacka-lacka-lacka..bom lacka lack’…indeed…!
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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John-ston, I agree but for one thing.
If we have a Royal Commission people WILL be living in tents through the winter.
The engineers now have a design criterion. Assert an 8 in the same proximity, work out the magnitude of the additional forces involved, liquefaction scaled accordingly. Build to meet THAT standard. Reducing from that standard should take a Royal Commission.
We do NOT need a “Royal Commission” to delay us. The Engineers have something they didn’t have before, bought at a terrible price, and that is practical example and experiment to show what coupling occurs underneath the actual city.
They can do very good estimates now, without help from a “Royal Commission”.
…and it is important to get enough basic work completed before winter that the city is livable through the winter. It is amazing to me how often this is seen as necessary to get “the answer” when the answer is already obvious.
It isn’t “theoretical” any more because there is practical information.
This much quake means these surface accelerations resulted.
Mother Nature just showed us what size stick she’s got to whup our butts with. We don’t have to guess.
respectfully
BJ
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bjchip, thanks for the response and I have a couple of points of my own to respond with.
Firstly, it is probable that people will be living in tents this winter even without a Royal Commission of Inquiry – don’t forget, prior to February 22nd, reconstruction work from the September 4th earthquake had barely begun. Of course, this earthquake has been far more destructive, so I would guess that we will not get back to where we were on the reconstruction work until the end of this year.
Secondly, I used the words major buildings – by that, I am thinking more of multi-storey office and apartment buildings. As I understand it, a small minority of houses have been written off as a result of this earthquake, so we can almost certainly start rebuilding houses. What I don’t want is multi-storey buildings constructed without a proper evaluation of the earthquake standards.
Also, the engineers might have a design criterion now, but what were the earthquake standards designed around? If they were designed around something like a high 7 or low 8 magnitude earthquake, then clearly there has been a failure somewhere as we saw modern buildings tumble to the ground (and suffer severe instability) as much as the old Victorian buildings. Simply superimposing what has happened and ramping up the magnitude isn’t going to necessarily result in safer buildings. We can wait a year or two if this will mean that we never have a repeat of what happened last week.
Of course, if the issue is ensuring that people have comfortable living arrangements during the winter, then perhaps prefabricated temporary housing could be considered – throw up a standard one bedroom, two bedroom and three bedroom design, get a production line started and get the houses in for the people of Christchurch in time for winter. Once everything has been investigated, then start building permanent housing.
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My understanding now is that the buildings that failed catastrophically were from the 1970′s and not built to the current standards. This begs the question as to the adequacy of current standards of course.
The other thing is that liquefaction acts as a magnifier for quakes that are otherwise insignificant, as it couples the base motion to the surface in unusual ways. It is difficult to model or to guess at, but at this point we have an actual event that tells us a lot more about the coupling than we had guessed earlier.
It is difficult to predict where waves may reinforce one another or cancel one another in the region and these locations will shift with different epicenters. In other words, some buildings may have survived through sheer dumb luck rather than being better built.
At the end however, getting housing rebuilt, some reasonably quick steel shelters up in the CBD (clearing some sites quickly to serve this purpose), and getting trams running again… those things will serve us well. Winter is coming and needs to be respected. I would be looking towards at temporary buildings this year. Shipping containers can be used. People can feel relatively secure in one as they don’t collapse easily.
respectfully
BJ
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Darned good point about the rail line running through it. I would half-bury the thing though. Putting it in a trench makes putting roads over the top (NO GRADE CROSSINGS!!!) easier and contains some of the sound.
respectfully
BJ
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bjchip says “My understanding now is that the buildings that failed catastrophically were from the 1970’s and not built to the current standards.”
Pyne Gould building was 1960s, CTV was 1980s, Earthquake standards were improved in 1970s.
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Cantabrians don’t needs the grey ones breathing down their backs. Make Christchurch an ETS and RMA free zone.
Cantabrians don’t need to be told where and how they will rebuild their city—they don’t need another centrally-planed “worker’s paradise.”
Read about an extraordinary alternative approach here
http://pc.blogspot.com/2011/02/guest-post-make-christchurch-enterprise.html
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Sallydeb – the article you link to calls for no central planning, and to let people build new buildings to whatever standard they like, and do away with inspections.
What a recipe for (another) disaster.
Sounds like the winner of a “stupid idea competiion”.
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To photonz1
If that is what you understood from the article, you are the stupid one – read it and the links provided properly.
Read about an extraordinary alternative approach here
http://pc.blogspot.com/2011/02/guest-post-make-christchurch-enterprise.html
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I would think that deregulation through the 90′s has probably resulted in a lot more damage.
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sallydeb:..there is nothing ‘extraordinary’ in that rightwing diatribe…
..it is the same old..same old..
..just more rand-ite bullshit..eh..?
http://whoar.co.nz/?s=ayn+rand
..libertarian delusionists mutter to each other..
..dreams of no minimum wage…and the like..
..you are peddling fool-ish words/ideas there…
..sallydeb…
..there is really nothing to see there…eh..?
(y’know how rand railed against govt-support/leeches on the earnings of good honest men..?
..and similar drivel…
didyaknow that in real life…
..she claimed govt. ‘entitlements’…
..under her husbands’ name..?
and if you doubt my words…
..the evidence..from her biographer..
..is in the link…eh..?..
(and for any others doing battle with rand-ites…can i recommend that welfare-curve-ball..?
shuts them right up/stops them in their tracks…
..eh sallydeb..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Sallydeb – the article you link to states –
“Let those who own their own property determine between them and their insurance company what they wish their building standards to be.”
That sounds very much like choosing your own building standards.
If there is a more stupid idea for a city that’s just been hit by two major earthquakes, I haven’t heard it.
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@photonz1 10:38 AM
I agree with you, photonz1. For the third time in a month!!! What the hell is going on?
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toad says “I agree with you, photonz1. For the third time in a month!!! What the hell is going on?”
I try to prioritise the outcome, rather then the method or ideology. So I don’t care if the ideology is right, left or middle – whatever gives the best outcome is what we should do.
Like the Green Party idea to bring in compulsory insulation and heating standards for all rental accommodation.
It’s a really good idea with major benefits, particularly health and financial benefits for those on low incomes, and their families.
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In a time like this, sensible policies usually come out and those of us who are not blinded by ideology are willing to back them. Needless to say, a no building standards approach would not only be idiotic, but offensive to those who perished.
Agreed on both counts; I would probably have the trench a couple of metres below the ground, although crossing the Avon might pose a slight challenge. You would not want level crossings in the Christchurch CBD as it would ruin the ambience.
I’ll grant that there are a couple sensible ideas there such as making Christchurch a no tax zone for a few years (perhaps a low tax zone would be better), and minimising the central planning aspect of it, but the notion of removing the minimum wage and building standards is idiotic.
I also found Owen McShanes comment about the Code of Hammurabi somewhat amusing (said code executed builders that built crappy buildings).
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now would be the ideal time to put in some underground railway lines through central Christchurch – where there’s a whole swathe of buildings destroyed you can build the tunnels by cut-and-cover, which is cheaper than tunnelling. However, you’d need to know that they would be safe in the next earthquake, and that they wouldn’t get flooded by Christchurch’s high water table.
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john-ston – a no or low tax zone would have too many complicated drawbacks.
i.e. – A nationwide company could move it’s head office address into a single Chch CBD office and pay no tax.
- When tax comes back to normal, many businesses used to no tax could fail.
A tax expert on the radio today also ruled it out as unworkable, even if the motovation is admirable.
Probably better off directly targeting aid to those businesses that fit certain criteria – like those who are currently struggling to survive and keep staff, but will very likely be viable again in the future.
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@kahikatea 4:55 PM
Indeed, it would be. There is the small problem of the Avon river. I think it would have to go overground there. Run the main line from Papanui through parallel to Papanui Road and then Montreal Street, to connect with the existing line parallel with Moorhouse Ave.
Then a link from the airport to the existing line at Papanui. Those ones shouldn’t be affected by the high water table, which is mainly in the east.
Not sure if it is practical to underground it, but the next stage could be a line linking off the Lyttleton line at Opawa and traveling through Woolston, Bromley, Aranui, Burwood and Mairehau to link up with the existing line and airport link at Papanui. That’s possibly a bit more problematic in the context of the geology, but if practicable would create an “outer city loop” that would be able to get people from most suburbs of Christchurch to most other suburbs very quickly.
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Toad, you are proposing running the line through Merivale. That won’t work. The most practical alignment is along the old St Albans motorway alignment. There are existing geotech reports for that. That alignment also has the advantage that St Albans park and the old MED site don’t hav buildings on them. Evry alignmnt has the problm of established housing and mature feature trees on all the streets between Edgware Rd and McFaddens Rd.
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Okay, Kevyn – I’ve never lived in Christchurch, let alone read the geotech reports, so was just working from memory of various times I’ve visited there and what would be ideal if technically possible.
I’ll defer to your superior local knowledge.
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Um, yes, just looking at the map now I can see the advantage of the vacant areas through St Albans. Might end up with the line through the CBD being between Durham St and Madras St, rather than Montreal St as I had earlier suggested.
Oh, and as for “mature feature trees”, I have to say (and will probably be criticised by some [small g] greens and maybe some (big G) Greens for it) that I don’t think a small number of mature feature trees should be a priority in circumstances like this. The priority for saving trees in the context of climate change has to be lots of them in forests, rather than a few nice looking ones on the roadside.
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Toad, I wrote one of my landscape 101 assignments on the impact on the St Albans community of having that motorway designation in place for 25 years hence the detailed knowledge on this small part of your idea.
On further contemplation, most of the trees wouldn’t need to go. The houses are almost all weatherboard so they can be moved, a cut and cover tunnel dug, then the houses put back, leaving the avenues of trees intact.
Alternatively maybe the Styx-Sockburn industrial railway plan could be resurrected so the existing line only carries passenger services then it could be trenched or even left at grade.
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Kevyn, that does leave the issue of poor integration with the Papanui Station site. Not only that, but as I understand it, Papanui Road is a decent bus corridor, so at least some of the patronage could be switched over to rail.
You could have the whole thing overground now with much of the CBD in tatters and a decent number of Christchurch homes in ruins. Such a route might cost $200 to $250 million at the most including land acquisition and construction.
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For all those proposing underground rail, are there any other cities in the world that run an efficient underground system for a little (but spread out) city of just 0.3 million?
(especially on that, with lower rise buildings, may end up with a lower population density in the centre then it had previouslty)
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The relevant tax issue is that the rebuild provides a GST revenue gain to government (that would not have otherwise occurred) and this does provide government/local government with revenue to part fund some of the public infrastructure work required. Given the GST is on the total rebuild and the government would be only financing part of the rebuild – this is helpful.
The utlimate question is how much of the GST revenue is used by government to meet its own costs and how much is used to subsidise/have input in the the nature of the rest of the rebuild.
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Interesting article in the LA Times: “New Zealand quake raises questions about L.A. buildings” – link here.
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The city of Lausanne is the smallest city in the world with a metro and they have a population of around 320,000 in the metropolitan area. I am only in favour of a surface level railway because it can be done relatively inexpensively now (most of the buildings are gone). I never was in favour of an underground railway for Christchurch for viability reasons, and the risk of liquefaction gives me even more reason to oppose an underground railway.
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Sallydeb – The insurors and their inspectors are not equipped to work out what the risk is at this point. That’s got to be done by engineers and GNS and would you kindly explain who pays for them? Standards are tools that the Insurance Companies use to work out what their risk actually is, and the code of Hammurabi has no bearing on working out what is to happen in or after an earthquake.
Basically, the libertarian “ideal” is so fucking ridiculous on this point of application that I can’t imagine how you could even entertain it.
Separating the wheat from the chaff however…
A more appropriate consideration has to do with the tax incentives being applied for businesses to remain in and work in Canterbury. This would assist in the rebuilding there and the businesses involved could certainly be taking steps to manage their own risk based on the standards.
That part of the idea is fairly reasonable I think.
BJ
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You can bury the rail in a quake zone, even in a liquefaction zone, but it costs…. cut and cover entails one hell of an engineering job on the “cover”.
respectfully
BJ
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I see someone has given the ground level “G” force.
So the cantilever structure of the building has to take twice its own mass without collapsing. This is a pretty tough standard for concrete. The more mass to the building, the tougher it is to design for the load.
Has to be done. I wouldn’t want to be using a lot of concrete though. I’d be working in steel and AAC panels and Timbercrete and wood. Probably gets pretty tough to go higher than 5-6 floors even so. The attachment to the ground becomes an issue as such a building may not collapse so much as simply fall over.
respectfully
BJ
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A better CHCH? Well we need to look waaay into the future, 50, 100, 300 years?
Why have a CBD? Aren’t they a relic from the pre internet past? All the white collars clustered together, but with the internet will they need to in future?
But then with peak oil urban sprawl will become a liability, so maybe we DO need a CBD?
Maybe a series of smaller hubs?
‘The code’ is going to come under a whole lot of navel gazing, what about getting serious about energy efficiency for the future, in any new builds (and re-builds). All public building built to (as near as possible) Passivhaus standard.
How about inertia switches/valves on all utilities that automatically switch everything off in a shake. I include houses in that.
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Every gas connection in LA has a cut off switch. Had one put on my house. I am told that there is one somewhere in the system that leads to my abode here. It is nowhere near the house and I do not trust it to function as it is not somewhere I can sight it. They cost a couple hundred bucks each. You reset it yourself after a shake.
We’ve been told by Mother Nature that our standards are inadequate and given an object lesson in what standards to apply. I have my own rule-of-thumb requirements. Mostly I know I need more steel and no bricks, and a woodburner as backup for heating because if this happens in midwinter we are going to be in a lot worse case.
As for the moon man I say this. Tidal stresses that occur when you get a really close approach to earth, as will happen middle of this month, have to affect the probabilities of quakes. Certainty is certainly not present, but I wouldn’t wholly discount the warning.
BJ
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