by frog
Published in THE ISSUES by frog on Tue, February 1st, 2011
Tags: general debate
General debate, February 1, 2011
Published: February 1, 2011
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on the trolls and those who are unable to keep on topic
Will Catherine Delahunty leave the Greens and move to join Sue and Hone in the new uber left party?
How many other Green MP’s will leave but far more importantly, how many Green voters will turn in their green coats for a red one?
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I don’t think Catherine will leave. She has as much experience and passion for environmental issues as she does for social issues, which could never be said of Sue. So not worried about any Green MPs and as for others, time will tell. The fact that remains is that none of the Green social policy that Sue championed has changed since Sue left nor is there any talk of changing it. If she wanted to continue her fight as an MP, she could be doing so at this very minute.
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Any Green Party position on the idea of shifting public holidays (ANZAC day, Waitangi Day) that fall on a weekend to a Monday, or at least making the following Monday a public holiday? Key is getting some publicity from it:
http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/8742195/key-to-consider-public-holiday-changes/
Trevor.
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Look’s like there’s an increase in Non-notified consents going on. For things like fracking and other gas and oil drilling processes that damage the Earth and create millions of gallons of polluted water that is dumped and ends in your drinking water. This should be a major issue if you are a Green.
http://www.newplymouthnz.com/AtoZOfCouncilServices/ResourceConsents/NotifiedAndNonNotifiedResourceConsents.htm
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WASHINGTON—As part of an ongoing campaign to promote physical fitness and well- being, the Department of Health and Human Services is urging all Americans to set aside time at least once a day to stand.
http://www.theonion.com/articles/department-of-health-and-human-services-recommends,19000/
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@Gerrit 6:49 AM
Gerrit, I think this is all a media beat-up (ably assisted by Martyn Bradbury). I know the reported players pretty well.
If Hone were to get booted out of the Maori Party, I suspect he would want to form some sort of alliance with the Greens before associating himself with the various individuals with no commitment to (or who oppose) tino rangatiratanga who are likely to be drawn to some new left party.
Sue denies anything is happening.
Matt was probably testing the waters for the idea by standing in the Mana byelection (I haven’t spoken with him about it), but the outcome there would not have given him confidence that it would fly.
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Toad,
Interesting scenario of Hone creating an “Alliance” with the Greens.
Picture I had not foreseen.
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm interesting.
Could the Greens work with an independent Maori sovereign nation (after all that is what Hone wants) when the potential to overfish, mine, bypass the RME act, set their own taxation and social policies, etc. of an independent sovereign Maori nation, divided along iwi and tribal lines?
As I say that would be interesting.
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@Trevor29 8:08 AM
Trevor, the Greens support one additional Mondayised public holiday between Queen’s Birthday and Labour Day, as well as making Easter Sunday a public holiday.
There isn’t specific policy on Mondayising the Waitangi and Anzac holidays, but I think the Greens’ general commitment to work-life balance would suggest support, on the basis that there should be a set number of public holidays every year.
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(…i stuck this in the wrong thread…it shd be here…)
y’know what the blackly ironic aspect of yr moving from social issues is…?
it is a matter of the zeitgeist….and timing…
and how you are totally out of whack with both of them…
..’cos up until very recently…social issues were generally ignored by most…
..they were only out on the fringes of the zeitgeist…
..and i guess..bowing to that widespread ignoring of those issues..
..you ditched the two leaders who had the strongest voices on those issues…
..in a misguided (?) attempt to purify yr green/environmental-message…
..and to appeal more to middleclass/swinging-voters…
(and i wd hasten to add i hope you succeed in gaining a strong presence in parliament…
…of course i want you there/at the table…)
..but the consequence of the class-war key/the tories have been waging on the poor/working/middle-classes…
..in favour of his own class..
..is that the poorest are hurting so much more…
..and that pain has now spread up into the middle-classes…
..everyone except the rich is now worse off..
..and social issues/our child poverty/ever-widening gap between the rich and the rest of us…
..are now suddenly much more the concern of many…
..most new zealanders seem to have suddenly woken up to the fact that we have world-beating rates in child poverty..
..and the resurgance of third world diseases amongst our underclass/poor..
…and they are not feeling very good about that..
..it makes them uncomfortable/uneasy…
…and they want that fixed up..
..but you..the greens..have missed the bus on that sea-change in the zeitgeist…
..eh..?
..you are heading in a largely opposite direction…
..aiming for what you think are middle-class green concerns/aspirations..
..and just think…had sue been elected co-leader…
…she would have mopped up all those votes/concerns for you..
..votes which will now flow to a new political vehicle..if that happens..
..as i said..i hope you get the votes/numbers..
..i hope metiria can make up that shortfall..
..and that the now financially distressed middle class are still listening to you..
..eh..?
..tho’ i think you may have made the same mistakes with the social justice voters…
…as you did with the pot-voters…
..and it may make yr row harder to hoe…
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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phil(whoar.co.nz)
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I feel Hone should be given a chance at Leading the Maori Party – unlike the current models – he may prove to stand for something, rather than being a ‘Votes for Sale’ sham(e).
Either that or the concept is an exercise in NZ trying to move forward whilst looking backward.
We trip, fall, injure – and do not progress with the current Maori Party.
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Why not? They work with an independent Pakeha nation with the potential to overfish, mine, bypass the RMA, set their own taxation and social policies, etc.
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Except presently the Greens can stand up in parliament and call the whole of the New Zealand nation (includes not just Pakeha but many many other ethnic entities) to account.
Once Maori sovereignty is established the Green voice will be yet another in the wilderness, like the rest of the non Maori in New Zealand when questions on Maori sovereignty and iwi/tribal rights are enacted. Maori will not be answereable to the New Zealand parliament.
With the demographics in New Zealand changing from a predominant white etnic background to a brown one comprising Pacific Island, Asian, Indian, African ethnics, the question of soivereignty is not about Pakeha V Maori anymore but Maori rights V the rest of New Zealand rights.
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I think you’ll find that Maori rights are the same as everybodies rights Gerrit. There should be no us or them. If somebody steals my land, I want them held to account. Thankfully some Maori are defending our seas and lands from Nationals pillaging, which is more than what can be said of most voters.
As far as you and I agreeing on something:
I think your understanding of my meaning is somewhat different. I did not insinuate that SOE’s should be propped up by the tax payer until they become profitable and then hocked off under privatisation. New Zealand will lose all it’s prior investment capital.
Just in case you haven’t noticed, the Natz have already started to undermine the value of our SOE’s. It would appear that they’re going to try and sell at discounted rates to their rich business mates. But that’s capitalism for you huh!
phil u
I was brought up hard as well, I don’t emote all over the place to try and win votes either. So why are you giving Dr Norman and the Greens in general a hard time? I think under the circumstances they’re doing a pretty good job.
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(…i stuck this in the wrong thread…it shd be here…)
It is no more correct in this thread than the other.
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care to point out what i have not got ‘correct….
..i tried to make a reasoned assesment of where you are..
..how you got there..
..and how you have missed an important bus…
..what have you got…?
..or is an ad hominem/sneer it..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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It would be good if Harawira was independent and ran a party to contest the Maori seats and win party list votes. A genuinely left wing party, with a safe seat, is the antidote to ACT in Epsom and keeps pressure on Labour to be centre-left rather than centre-centre left.
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If we’re talking about timing and a zeitgeist movement, the Greens are probably the only party who comprehends where society is at and where it should be. They are certainly the only party that is making any sound about improving infrastructure to protect the environment, remedy cuts in funding for necessities and reform systems that are detrimental to our way of life. Surely you’re not accusing them of this abandonment. To say that the Greens are in dereliction of duty and have gone against their own constitutional beliefs is completely unfounded. Perhaps you just don’t like the spin that is placed on all media releases these days, but again you need to look elsewhere for the perpetrators.
The internal structure of the Greens has nothing to do with your reference to the above dynamics and everything to do with what is best. Although I agree that Sue Bradford has many skills that could be utilised as co-leader, they’re not lost in appearance or actuality to the Greens. Consolidation with the Greens with Hone Harawera as an independent would be a more likely scenario. However I digress, the contradiction within your rant phil u is blatant and easy to see… being that people’s lives are harder, if the Greens wished to gain momentum, why would they as you claim ignore childhood poverty etc, which is now affecting the middle classes? You cannot have it both ways phil u.
As far as I can see, social justice is at the core of the Greens philosophy. It is slightly insulting to disregard all the hard work the Greens have done in this area over the years because of your mistaken belief that media perception defines Greens policy. Accordingly divisive policies are often not openly debated in the public arena because of their controversy. However I don’t think any Green MP would shy away from such a debate if it where to be initiated. Just as they would not shy away from hoeing the hardest ground there is to hoe. History has proven them to be adept in this area.
You did ask phil u.
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This a response to the report of the group looking at savings and investment policy changes by the government.
Any increase in GST should be to 20%, but only if combined with a 10% rate for food, power and medical and educational costs. The effective tax paid by the poor would go down, but overall revenue would be the same. This change effectively making the tax less regressive.
This is important if Kiwi Saver is to be compulsory (and so is the Labour moves on the tax free threshold).
The tax incentives for Kiwi Saver should go. The compulsory rate at 2%, but the employer 2% should be paid into the New Zealand Super Fund. If the employee pays 4%, then the employer pays an extra 1% to the employee account (later increasing to 2%).
That saves a $B from the tax incentives for Kiwi Saver and also raises money for the affordability of tax paid super with the payments into the New Zealand Super Fund.
The $1B savings can be placed into the pool for affording a reduced rate of tax on interest income. Inflation proofing is difficult, it’s easier to just go with 3 withholding rates – 10% for those on below the minimum wage, 20% for those on the top rate/2 times the average wage and 15% for the rest.
Another way to raise money for this pool is to place a surcharge on mortgages (it’s not that bad for home owners as the OCR will fall to compensate – so it actually means a lowering of borrowing costs for business and a lower dollar and little change in cost of paying off home laons). Bollard has been after this tool to move away from reliance on raising the OCR for some time. As it tool that also raises revenue, it’s useful for implementing structural change in the savings/investment regime of the country.
A 1% surcharge would raise over $1B pa (home mortgages are over $100B of foreign debt alone). It would prevent any need to raise the OCR from 3 to 4% later next year.
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I feel ACT’s current Role is to make the Nat’s look sane and middle of the road. They are more of a distraction than a Political Entity.
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But Labour needs someone to do the same for them, be left wing and make centre-left look more centrist.
The side advantage is for the Green Party as then they can focus on their core concerns – leaving a left wing party to raise the other related social and economic issues and keep Labour honest.
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With the Cost of Living getting higher – the ‘Left’ will be more appealing anyway; Labour are already so ill-defined as to be near meaningless.
Our current Government was imo elected in protest against Labour and their scowling leader, and they have done little to Change their image in the meanwhile.
In effect we have a default mode Govt.
Then, of course, the poorest are the ones who participate least in the Electoral Process – it’s a bit more of a commitment when there is no car – nor home (in many cases).
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todd..that is my take…on what is the defining green party statement of the year…
..and what i see as the short-comings…
..it’s as simple as that…
..it’s a point of view..
..others will differ/demur…
(i’m not expecting russel norman to call a press conference..
..and say..’y'know..that phil is correct…’)
..but nobody is bleeding…eh..?
..it’s been a good day so far…
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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and in more trivial/amusing news…david farrar has outed himself as an e-user/fan…
..admitting on radio to using..and calling for a law change..
..now..does that maybe show you how far off the mark you are with yr fear of the drug-thing…?
…when david farrar is now a drug-warrior…for ‘e’….
..eh…?
..but he greens still keep silent..
..thru fear of not being everything for everyone…eh..?
..fear of a backlash…
..phil(whoar.co.nz)
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and gee..todd..seeing as you are mounting such a strong defence…
..how about you defend the benchmark-setting deriliction of duty/opportunity..
..that was metiria tureis’ (non)-handling of her private members’ bill on pot..?
..off ya go..!
..(you did say..!..eh..?..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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I have no knowledge of what you’re talking about phil u. You’re welcome to inform me if you wish. I would prefer this to be in a more optimistic way
You might as well say: “I prefer Sue and think pot should be decriminalized”. Everybody knows the Greens stand for the decriminalisation already. Saying so would seem a bit superfluous.
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http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2011/02/energy-efficiency-pays-off.html#links
http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2011/01/climate-change-meaningless-target.html#links
Air quality.
http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2011/01/statistical-murder.html#links
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Has anyone noted that with house mortgages at $170B – a surcharge of 1% would raise $1.7B pa in revenue.
Bollard called for a surcharge tool to be available a few years back to avoid over-reliance on raising the OCR to combat inflation – this would help to hold down the value of dollar while containing domestic inflation.
This idea is both a good way to support the export sector and raise funds for government …
If the total personal debt if $315B is considered (other debt can be for car finance etc) – a 1% surcharge would raise $3B pa.
Of one added ending Kiwi Saver incentives – on the grounds an employer contribution was return enough for worker saving – that’s another $B off the deficit. That’s $4B pa.
Then add the money raised by ending property losses being used to reduce tax liability, and bringing in a CGT (excluding the family home up to say $M max), what deficit … .
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Hugo award winning dystopic novel about GE foods … and people.. and I have to get this book!
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=10703445
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http://whoar.co.nz/2011/interview-with-gary-francione/
“…Francione’s theory is described as the “abolitionist approach.”
He maintains that we cannot morally justify using animals as human resources – and that we should abolish animal use.
He opposes efforts to reform or regulate animal use – arguing that they will necessarily provide limited protection to animal interests -
- because of the status of animals as property.
He has come out strongly against promoting humane farming, vegetarianism, Proposition 2 in California, the Humane Society of the United States, the boycott of the NFL for allowing Michael Vick on the field -
- and even PETA’s sexy ads about fur, meat, and other animal uses.
In short, Francione rejects nearly all of the campaigns promoted by the large animal protection organizations.
He even believes that Jonathan Safran Foer’s book Eating Animals is hurting, not helping, the cause for animal rights…
THE BELIEVER: Most animal advocates encourage people to become vegetarians, yet you feel that promoting vegetarianism is a step in the wrong direction for reducing animal exploitation. Why do you feel that way?
GARY FRANCIONE: There is absolutely no morally defensible distinction between flesh and other animal products, such as milk or cheese.
Animals used in the dairy industry usually live longer – and are treated as badly if not worse than their meat counterparts -
- and they all end up in the same slaughterhouse anyway.
The meat and dairy industries are inextricably intertwined.
As far as I am concerned, there is more suffering in a glass of milk than in a pound of steak – though I would not consume either.
Vegetarianism as a moral position is no more coherent than saying that you think it morally wrong to eat meat from a spotted cow -
- but not morally wrong to eat meat from a non-spotted cow.
We do not need any animal products for health purposes – and animal agriculture is an ecological disaster.
The best justification that we have for killing billions of animals every year is that they taste good.
That simply cannot suffice as a moral justification.
BLVR: Many animal advocates approve of farms that raise animals in humane ways for consumption.
Yet I understand you are opposed to these kinds of farms, and even to campaigns that work to improve the lives of animals on factory farms, such as Proposition 2 in California, which prohibits the use of some kinds of battery cages for chickens.
Why are you opposed to campaigns like these?
Isn’t it better to at least treat the animals humanely if we are going to use them?
GF: I think that people who advocate such practices actually do more harm than good -
- by perpetuating the fantasy that we can somehow tidy up the concentration camps -
- and make the institutionalized exploitation of sentient beings morally acceptable.
It is always better to do less harm than more.
If you are going to murder someone – it’s better not to torture her as well.
A concentration camp with comfortable beds is better than one without.
But this approach neglects a fundamental question about the moral legitimacy of the underlying activity of treating animals as human resources.
For those who support these supposed reforms – the issue is how we use animals;..
… for me, the issue is that we use animals.
I am opposed to animal welfare campaigns for two reasons.
First, if animal use cannot be morally justified, then we ought to be clear about that, and advocate for no use.
Although rape and child molestation are ubiquitous – we do not have campaigns for “humane” rape – or “humane” child molestation.
We condemn it all.
We should do the same with respect to animal exploitation.
Second, animal welfare reform does not provide significant protection for animal interests.
Animals are chattel property; … they are economic commodities.
Given this status and the reality of markets – the level of protection provided by animal welfare will generally be limited to what promotes efficient exploitation.
That is – we will protect animal interests to the extent that it provides an economic benefit.
And if you look at the history of animal welfare reform – you will see it fits this model.
For example, the Humane Slaughter Act of 1958 was nothing more than a recognition that large animals who were not stunned at the moment of slaughter would cause injuries to workers – and incur costly carcass damage.
The current campaign for gassing chickens is based on the lower costs of gassing over current methods of slaughter;…
… the campaign to eliminate the gestation crate is based on the increased production efficiency of alternative methods…” (cont..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Game on!
Press Release by New Zealand Government at 12:54 pm, 02 Feb 2011
The 2011 General Election will take place on Saturday 26 November, Prime Minister John Key announced today.
“I believe it is in the country’s best interests to know the date of the General Election early in election year,” says Mr Key.
“It creates certainty for New Zealanders and allows people to plan accordingly. This is particularly true this year when the Rugby World Cup, the third largest sporting event in the world, is being hosted by New Zealand.
“Last night I rang the Governor-General to advise him of the election date,” says Mr Key.
The Government’s intention is that the House will rise on Thursday 6 October, and Parliament will be dissolved on 20 October. Writ day will follow on Wednesday, 26 October, and nomination day will be Tuesday 1 November.
ENDS
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Key has put an awful lot of faith on fifteen men – if we don’t win the Rugby World Cup this year, then it is quite possible that National could lose. A smarter thing to have done would have been to time the election for late August, just prior to the Rugby World Cup.
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Familiar tactic and a roll of the Dice for sure!
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So if the AB’s win and National gets in, is that a mandate to sell our SOE’s?
If our SOE’s are sold, how is that going to resolve the most pressing issue of climate change? Being that less investment in infrastructure will be available under privatisation and there will be less political willpower achievable to push for alternatives. Private enterprise has already proven their reluctance to move towards a green future.
“The obstacles to realizing this transformation of the energy sector are primarily social and political.”
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/02/clean-energy-2050/
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I well remember a Premier of Victoria using a sporting event as Voting Day.
The Media predicted a landslide win for that Premier.
Well, the MCG was packed, and it was all a huge success, then the people went to the Polls and Voted in the Opposition in landslide numbers.
They were not given credit for having the intelligence to separate the choice of Government from a sporting Event.
You should have seen the ‘stunned mullet’ faces reporting the results on Telly.
Does this mean that if Ireland wins the World Cup, the Greens get Elected?
Erin Go Bragh!
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Dung Beetles to be released in NZ!
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Dung Beetles to be released in NZ!
The end of the (fill in the name of your favorite target) is nigh.
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Never count your dung beetles before they hatch… On a right wing website no less:
http://www.interest.co.nz/node/52128
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http://www.theonion.com/articles/us-negotiating-mubaraks-severance-package,19037/
“CAIRO—In an effort to provide monetary compensation to the Egyptian president for three decades of faithful service, U.S. officials opened negotiations with Hosni Mubarak Tuesday, offering him a severance package worth $20 million upon termination of his employment. “We are all thankful for the hard work and long hours President Mubarak”
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national radio is about to discuss the question..!
..cd u b a vegan 4 a week…
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Watching NZ play Cricket?
Biiiig Yawn.
Where is Cyber-Bunky?
Did Gerrit really say Uber-Left?
That cheap sherry has a lot to answer for….
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Are you still wondering what fracking is: http://chanceofrain.com/2010/06/the-week-that-was-fracking-special/
Oil industries doesn’t like you knowing either: http://www.pressaction.com/news/weblog/full_article/gasland02022011/
How bad can it get: http://earthjustice.org/blog/2010-october/radioactive-water-fracking-dangerous
I really think the Greens should be asking some pertinent questions in parliament like:
Are radioactive traces used in New Zealands fracking sites?
How much pollution has been generated already by fracking?
What is being done to contain fracking waste?
Does fracking breach our anti nuclear policy in releasing radioctive waste water and utilizing radioactive products in a dangerous way?
How many fracking drill sites are there in New Zealand?
Has any ground water and drinking water been contaminated by fracking?
What measures are the Government taking to reduce the harm caused by fracking?
I can actually answer that last one with some certainty myself… none!
Why the hell can’t our networks play Gasland here? I’m so sick of the brainwashing never ending repeats and misreporting.
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That is assuming they win. If things work out as per usual, then the All Blacks will face the Springboks in the Semi-Finals, and that could be tricky. Assuming they won that match, then it is up against either the French or the Wallabies in the Finals.
If the All Blacks lose, then Key will probably lose the election – there are too many negatives that can be brought up and if everyone is feeling in a down mood because the All Blacks have lost, they are more likely to be receptive to those negatives.
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Institute of Economic Research has released a report on the 90 day right to fire legislation. Surprise, surprise, it has found that it has INCREASED small business’s willingness to hire new staff and has NOT resulted in a rash of dodgy dismissals.
I look forward to it’s application across all NZ industry. It’s good legislation.
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@samiam 11:00 AM
Samiam, don’t believe everything you read. I can’t comment on the detail of the analysis in the report because they don’t release the raw data, but for a start it seems to assume that corelation = causation, which it doesn’t.
There is a good critique of it out this morning by r0b at The Standard.
I might add that no-one I’ve heard expressing opposition to the legislation ever denied that the 90 day legislation would increase hiring. The concerns have always been about fairness to employees, access to justice, and about the legislation discouraging workers already in employment from moving to new employment.
Abolishing the minimum wage would increase hiring and employment levels too, but only right wing extremists like Don Brash would think that justifies the exploitation that workers would suffer if it were to be abolished.
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Toad says “Abolishing the minimum wage would increase hiring and employment levels too, but only right wing extremists like Don Brash would think that justifies the exploitation that workers would suffer if it were to be abolished”
Only right wing extremists like Don Brash….and far-left countries like Sweeden – there’s no minimum wage there.
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Don’t need legislated minimum wages in Sweden as the unions have enough power to make sure no one pays wages below living costs.
Tax payers do not have to subsidise businesses who are too inefficient to pay the true costs of their Labour force.
Abolishing the minimum wage will decrease hiring and employment levels for the obvious reason that minimum wage earners spend all their money back into the economy immediately. Growing local business, increasing employment and taxable incomes.
Any one who doubts this should have seen the effect on local business in places like Kaitaia and Whangarei when wages and benefits were cut in the 90′s.
I sold my business and went back to another trade recently because I knew that with wages dropping under National my customers would disappear. That has proven to be the case.
National is not the party for SME’s.
It is the party of sellouts to big corporates and thieves.
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“has NOT resulted in a rash of dodgy dismissals”.
Ask the young workers in Northland.
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You might have more of a case if your supported New Zealand moving to the very generous welfare system Sweden has to support those whose wages are inadequate.
But I bet you don’t.
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Kerry says “I sold my business and went back to another trade recently because I knew that with wages dropping under National my customers would disappear. That has proven to be the case.”
Yeah right – the reason you sold your business was because a more business friendly govt came in.
And average wages have risen every year, and tax cuts have led to more disposible income.
So your weak excuse sounds like a load of rubbish.
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toad says “You might have more of a case if …”
Actually, I’ve not arguing for abolishing the minimum wage, even if there are some benefits from it re businesses being able to take on more unemployed people.
I was just pointing out the irony of your error in your statement that only right wing extremists want no minimum wage.
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Kerry says “I knew that with wages dropping under National… ”
Wrong.
Real wages (after tax, and adjusted for inflation) went up 9% in the first two years of National (in the recesion) – that’s three times greater increase in two years, than the previous NINE under labour when wages went up just 3% for the whole period. (i.e. 4.5% per year increase vs 0.3% increase per year – that’s 15 x better than the annual increase under Labour).
Under Labour, wage increases only ever tracked inflation. Under National, they were higher than inflation (low inflation because of recession), and there were tax cuts.
See –
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1008/S00294/after-tax-earnings-up-9-per-cent-since-2008.htm
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Average wages have risen for a very few people in the Million dollar bracket.
Wages for most people have fallen against the cost of the things most people buy.
Costs rising faster than wages equals a lot less disposable income.
The majority have less disposable income. Costs have risen much more than any tax cuts.
What is business friendly about removing business customers.
As usual Photo you are cherry picking and talking shit.
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Todd.
I am not aware of anyone using fracking to extract hydrocarbons in NZ. If you know of any one please tell us. I would be doubtful because there are still reserves in NZ that can be used much more cheaply.
You should be concerned about the legal regime in NZ for conventional exploration though. There is basically no oversight from any NZ agency.
None of our regulatory agencies have the expertise required in any case. “A person with a degree who is interested in learning about the maritime industry in NZ” just does not cut it.
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Kerry – as usual – not a single figure to back your generalised claims.
So your business was struggling to make a profit, and you think we should all pay higher wages (and pay more tax, and spend more in R&D, and give more holidays – all this extra spending from a struggling business)
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Doing fine when I got out of it. Actually doing OK now, but house renovation not boat building.
No problem paying decent wages and tax when there is plenty of customers on reasonable wages to to use my services. Many boat owners now have just let their boats deteriorate as they are no longer paid enough to maintain them. And our ridiculously high dollar caused by currency speculation and the RBA stopped exports dead.
The only firms that benefit from low wages are the first ones to do it. When low wages are universal all business suffers..
83% rise in labour productivity since the Neo-Liberal nonsense started.
15% rise in wages. 2/3 drop in investment in productive businesses. 40% rise in finance services share of GDP.
Skilled wages dropped 40% against GDP, which we know is understated.
It has had 35 years to work. Not working yet.
No problem paying decent wages and tax when there is plenty of customers. No benefit in that at all when customers disappear.
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Kerry says “Costs rising faster than wages equals a lot less disposable income”
Wrong.
The figures for real wages increases of 9 years at 0.3% per year under Labour and two years at 4.5% per year under National are after tax and AFTER INFLATION.
So rising costs are already calculated into these figures.
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http://tvnz.co.nz/business-news/company-failure-rate-up-40-2528764
“The number of New Zealand companies failing has risen more than 40% compared to the same time last year”.
Under Labour business failure rates went down 36%
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http://tvnz.co.nz/business-news/company-failure-rate-up-40-2528764
“The number of New Zealand companies failing has risen more than 40% compared to the same time last year”.
Compared with down 36% under Labour.
Who is really the party for Business?
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Real wages (after tax AND inflation) rose 15.5% between 1990 and 1999, another 3% from 1999 to 2008 and 9% in 08/09.
see
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1008/S00294/after-tax-earnings-up-9-per-cent-since-2008.htm
That’s a total of 27.5% more spending power (AFTER inflation) in the last two decades.
Take off your rose tinted glasses. Financially speaking the good old days were really only the old days.
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Peter Saunders, adviser to the NZ Welfare Working Group, on how poor people are born stupid http://bit.ly/hOQ0D5
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Kerry quotes from two years ago ““The number of New Zealand companies failing has risen more than 40% compared to the same time last year”.”
Wow – stop the presses – NEWS NEWS NEWS !!!!!
There was an upsurge in bankruptcies between the peak of the housing bubble and the depth of the recession.
Whooppee.
And you stuffed up. The period when bankruptcies surged was the second half of 08 – Labour were still in power !!!
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Using average wages pushed up by a very few grossly high incomes at the top end says nothing about the disposable income of normal people.
Ordinary people can see first hand how spending power has dropped dramatically since the great Neo-Liberal revolution.
Lunacy is doing the same thing over again and expecting a different result.
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Photo. Just wait until this years figures come out. not looking too good so far.
And Key reckons this is the upturn.
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Kerry says “Using average wages pushed up by A VERY FEW grossly high incomes at the top ” (my capitals)
You said it – “a very few” – so few, in fact that they have little impact on average wage figures.
Only 1% of people earn over $150,000
More likely average wages are brought down by the 20% who earn under $10,000
see
http://www.treasury.govt.nz/budget/2009/taxpayers/b09-taxpayers.pdf
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Kerry says – “Photo. Just wait until this years figures come out. not looking too good so far.
And Key reckons this is the upturn.”
Sounds like you want a whole lot of people go bust so you can blame Key.
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@rimu 2:25 PM
Somewhat more authoritative research by evolutionary psychologist Satoshi Kanazawa of LSE would suggest it is political conservatives, rather than poor people, who are born stupid.
Maybe that’s why many conservatives can’t see through the bullshit methodology the likes of Saunders use.
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“Sounds like you want a whole lot of people go bust so you can blame Key”.
They already have.
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“Only 1% of people earn over $150,000″
Shows how much wages have dropped for the majority.
It is easy to show that a small percentage of outliers earning over a mill can drag the average up when the median is so low.
Including such things as new cars in the CPI masks the real increase in costs. Who buys new cars.
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“More likely average wages are brought down by the 20% who earn under $10,000″
No way: median wages are almost always below the mean in NZ. Mean and median income would surely show an even greater disparity.
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toad says “Maybe that’s why many conservatives can’t see through the bullshit methodology the likes of Saunders use.”
What methodology is that?
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Hi Kerry Thomas, I hate to contradict you but I’m certain there is fracking going on in Taranaki.
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toad – interesting that what you call “authoratative research” writes off people from ALL traditional cultures as less intelligent because none fit their definition of liberal.
And it hypothesises that the more people have moved on from their hunter gatherer way of life, the more intelligent they must be. So Europeans are far more advanced in this than Africans or Polynesians.
I think you should be careful what you call “authoratative research”.
The fact is (shhhhh – no one really wants to acknowledge it or talk about it – too un-pc) that if you have a group of 1000 very bright people, and 1000 stupid people, the offspring of the intelligent people will on average be a little brighter.
Just like a group of 1000 tall people would have offspring who were – on average – a little taller than offspring from 1000 short people.
And those 1000 very bright people – on average – would have better qualifications and jobs and more money than the 1000 stupid people.
The disparity is probably increased further by the environment kids grow up in.
Which is why we need a system to give kids with stupid parents every opportunity we can.
Like the 80% funding for early childhood education, so that centres in poorer areas can significantly raise the number of qualified teachers from their current low rates instead of them all working in “nice” areas.
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@photonz1 4:25 PM
You (I suspect deliberately) missed that I referred to it as “somewhat more authoritative research”. I am fully aware of the critiques of the Kanazawa research, as I am of those of the Saunders research.
But the Kanazawa research is useful in getting a kneejerk response from conservatives like you, photonz1. You expose yourself.
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Does anyone here know who to report biosecurity problems to?
My wife and I are pretty sure we have found an infestation of southern salt marsh mosquito’s in the Greymouth area on the West Coast.
We have had these nasty white speckled mosquito’s biting us during the day time and causing big welts on the kids.
They certainly fit the description of the “aussie mozzie” that was declared eradicated last year.
They are blinkin horrible!!!
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http://www.maf.govt.nz/
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@Todd 7:44 PM
I wouldn’t have a lot of confidence in that, Todd. By all means give it a go Shunda, but I think action might happen faster if advised to kevin.hague@parliament.govt.nz.
Not my area of expertise, but something I seem to recall is that these are the mozzies that carry the very nasty Ross River Virus?
I suspect they are not a significant biosecurity threat, but are a significant health threat, so it might be MoH, rather than MAF, who have responsibility.
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MAF might send you a fly swat.
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I rang the 0800 number, got shuffled around a bit and then was told someone will ring me back at some stage.
And yes Toad they (if it is them) do carry the Ross river virus, so not too keen on being bitten by them.
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Any way, it’s Friday!! This song was one of my favourites when I was a teenager:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1N_qX_r4Iw
Funny how a song can trigger off a whole lot of memories.
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Toad says “But the Kanazawa research is useful in getting a kneejerk response from conservatives ”
Is that your best response you can come up with when you stuff up by labelling racist mutterings on intelligence as more authorative research.
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Environmentally minded people, watch this:
http://www.ted.com/talks/naomi_klein_addicted_to_risk.html
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Without getting into statistics, on a sample size of one I have had a small increase in my waged income, and have significant increases in the st of groceries, and of recent times, fuel, so my disposable income has reduced over the last recent period.
I dont put this down to red or blue policitics; our governments of all persuasions have shown no ability to influence the economy in any sort of a significant or useful manner, thus one can’t really blame the governments, other then by inaction.
The actions of the governments do make differences to the really-not-well-off, and the very-well-off, but for the majority of us, Mr and Mrs Average, theres so little in it.
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can we discuss the (current) elephant in the room…?
..the possible emergence of a new left-wing party…?
(just not talking about it..won’t make it go away…eh..?)
here is a comment from over at farrars’ to kick it off…
“..# Red Sam (67) Says:
February 5th, 2011 at 4:19 pm
I can only hope that a successful new Left party emerges in the near future.
Labour are nothing short of liberal third way moderates. I could never vote for a party that supports free trade, the surveillance and SIS bills, GST, user-pays tertiary education, unaffordable housing, and is against the right for workers to strike outside of bargaining. The Green Party’s answer to all nasties is flat taxes and/or behaviour change – ie, ride a bike, wrap the hot water cylinder, catch the bus, etc. They’ve been next to silent on the social issues that matter….”
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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(and this is a comment i thru up there..)
philu (9,745) Says:
February 5th, 2011 at 4:41 pm
you all seem to be forgetting the peaks of support the alliance had in their prime…
..20%+…
…just because nobody has been speaking for them…since labour galloped right…
..and anderton wore the alliance down to one…
..dosen’t mean they have just gone away…
..far from trotters’ dyspeptic-predictions…
..the support for this party will be the big surprise of this election…
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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More like a mouse given the effect they’re likely to have. I think Trotter is correct regarding the practicalities on the ground. I don’t think they will even try.
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(well..the conversation is fair galloping along..
..i see valis has her blinkers/denial-cap firmly fixed…)
here is some more…
# philu (9,747) Says:
February 5th, 2011 at 5:03 pm
it’s interesting..the sea-change that appears to be happening…
..the pendulum is starting to swing the other way…
..what we have is the possibility of the various strands of the left coalescing into a new entity…
…and we have the right in disarray….
..act is a limping mess…barely able to croak….and looking down the barrel of electoral decimation..
…with their best-case scenario hide just hanging on…
…they have dunny….
..so they are forced to rely on a maori party where the leadership have deserted their followers…
..and are now making simpering noises of wanting to go with national again…
…are they mad…?
…some 80+% of those who voted for the maori party mp’s also gave their party vote to labour…
…do they really think the shellacking maori have taken under this class-war regime…
..have caused those voters to desert labour..?
…so how they attempt to reconvile those conflicting forces will be interesting to watch…
..so that is all national have…
(if the greens went with a privatising/second-term rightwing govt…they wd be signing their death warrant as a party..)
but on the left..goff looks to be spoilt for choice…
..a cornucopia of parties to choose from…
..my best/ideal-result wd be a lab/greens/new party govt…
..then we cd rock and roll…
..and do what needs to be done..
..to bring the country back from the third world abyss decades of rightwing govts has dragged us..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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um..!..metiria is on nat-rad saying that nz first ‘are not rating’..
um..i did a story this morn on the latest poll..
nz first are on 5.5%..the greens on 6.5%…
http://whoar.co.nz/2011/latest-pollnational-dropslabour-climbsgreens-unchangedand-nz-first-is-therewith-55/
..it is not very good for her credibility to be speaking such nonsense…
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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It’s not blinkers, just that if Matt couldn’t get 5% in Porirua going all out in a by-election (I’ve heard he had the most people on the ground of anyone), then it is highly unlikely that any new party will do so having to organise across the country. Maybe if they formed next year and had time to build, but it would be a huge ask in 2011.
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oh come off it valis..!
the result in that bye-elction has nought to do with any chances in a general election..
you are talking apples and oranges…
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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My point is that they are very different, with one much harder than the other. If Matt hadn’t done so poorly, his new party would have been announced right after the Mana election.
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no chance of making any real change in that bye-election…
..this party wd have every chance of being a powerful instrument for positive change..
..that is why any comparisons are a nonsense…
..why are you scared of them..?
hasn’t hone already said his first choice for a coalition partner wd be the greens…?
i see this development as strengthening the centre-left…
..what’s wrong with that..?
..dosen’t lab/grns/new party sound good..?
..wd u rather have peters..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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I’m not worried about the prospect, nor did I even imply that. Just saying what I think will happen, which btw, includes Hone not being involved even if a new left party does form.
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nz first are on 5.5%
The next few polls will be the interesting ones now that Key has ruled out Winston. Those will show if he’s likely to be a real threat or not.
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Phil. I would rather Labour grew some balls. they still have the capability to pick up far more votes if they had the guts to repudiate the whole Neo-Liberal fuckup.
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Can’t see them getting guts or balls any time in the near future.
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can you really see them doing that ..kerry..?
between now and the election..?
i agree that cd work as well…
..but i can’t really see them doing it…
..(but i wd love to be proved wrong…)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Happy Waitangi Day to everyone, and I hope I see a lot of Kiwis being proud to be Kiwi today.
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hone harawira has made an eminently sensible observation..
that in unity lies strength…
..noting that should the greens and the maori party agree to negotiate post-election as a bloc….
…that neither of the old parties wd be able to rule without them..
..and thus…real power wd be gained…
..and policy planks dear to both..cd be achieved…
..what’s not to love about that idea…?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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It’s a great idea, if only the leadership of the Maori Party would agree.
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Seems like a good idea except for one obvious problem. The Maori Party are explicitly a party focused on one minority section of the population, even though they have a number of good values that others could adopt, whilst the Green Party are fighting for everyone equally.
If the Maori Party would expand its horizons then it would be a good alliance.
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It’s not that bad, Tony. Before they went over to the dark side, the Maori Party and Greens voted the same way about 75% of the time. Not to say there wouldn’t be arguments, but we have more in common with them than any other Party currently in the House.
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“..It’s a great idea, if only the leadership of the Maori Party would agree…”
so…roll the leadership…
..i don’t really care how we get there..
..a new left party..a re-directed maori party..
..i couldn’t really give a flying fuck on the permutation..
..i just want it to happen…
..and the urgency is palpable..
..a second term privatising/pogroming on the poor national govt..
..will do irreperable harm to our country..
..and i wd urge the green party leadership to go all out to make something like this happen…
..you/we are being divided and ruled…
..it’s politics 101..
..get yr shit together..!..eh..?
..and tony…the greens/maori party have much more in agreement/common..
..than they differ..
..and i don’t think ideological lock-step is a prerequisite to the task at hand..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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More evidence that the Mayor of Greymouth is a moron
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sunday-star-times/news/4622586/Mayors-plea-for-open-cast-mine
Please Frog! Make a post about this, If this were to go ahead it would be one of the most destructive mines in NZ history. Kevin where are you!!
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Hone is a very smart guy.
I think of the Maori party as a microcosm of the nation, not QUITE true, but the divisions are similar. There are Maori voters who could be characterized as a business-block, and there are others who are labour and green.
The Maori party is currently in the hands of its businessmen… except for Hone.
I doubt that the majority of Maori will want to leave it in those “capable hands”, but it is unclear to what extent they have a say in the internal controls of their party. Rolling the leadership… is it a possible thing for them? It would be a good thing overall I suspect, but can it happen?
BJ
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BJ,
If the current Maori party is a microcosm of the nation then surely there is no reason at all for there not to be two Maori parties,
One for the liberal faction and for the conservative faction.
Hone would head one (and with his lateast remarks he must be close to starting it), the current one headed by the incumbent leaders.
With the mandate for Maori seats in the New Zealand parliament there is no reason to think that either faction would not get representation.
Problem strategically is that it weakens the Maori postion overall and hence the reason for Hone trying to take over the Maori party.
Danger for him will be that if he takes over the Maori Party, the conservative Maori voter may not vote for him and any effective Maori Party representation in parliament may be lost.
Interesting developments.
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