32 Comments Posted

  1. Lets sum up then…

    Get in that field boy ta earn ya keep. If y’al can’t work no more ya aint gettin no grub on ya plate tonight and ya be sleepin in the field. Get back ta picking cottin like a good slave ta pay your taxes or y’al get a beatin like last time. Ya looked in the mirror lately boy?

    The fact of the matter is that the poor remain poor because of lecherous overlords currently pillaging the country. Very really does hard work, small business enterprise or invention set you free in New Zealand. It is more likely to get stolen by an unscrupulous system that allows corruption. From my observation, white-collar crime is far more rewarding than anything the honest working- class could ever hope to achieve through perseverance. Simply; the harder the poor work, the richer they make the fat old man that already has more than he could ever need. There is no longer any reward to conforming. This is more so now than ever before.

    In a humane system, people would be properly rewarded for their efforts, the sick, elderly and infirm would be cared for and justice would always prevail. That’s the New Zealand I want to live in. Not the current feudal system, which is exploiting the working class. Now please assume away Gerrit…

  2. sprout says “New Zealand is one of the easiest countries in the world to do business in:”

    Then why don’t lots of greens start companies, make easy money, and give it all away to favourite causes?

    80% of businesses start-ups failing to make ten years in business would suggest the opposite.

  3. Gerrit, sorry if I misrepresented you, I was confused by the envy bit as I don’t think people suffer from envy so much as appalled by the unjustified excess. After $150,000 why would anyone need a higher income? …and when you are talking millions like the CEO of Telecom, incomes become absurd.

  4. No. We are not silly enough to believe that huge tracts of the folding stuff are squirreled away. We do know that the “rich” are mortgaging the future labour of ourselves and our children to pay for their present lifestyles.
    The rest of us have gone from being able to support a family on one income to having to have two incomes and a mortgage to do the same.

    Most of us are aware that the money supply is a ponzi scheme to enrich the lenders of capital.

  5. They state is borrowing to pay for tax cuts to said bankers etc. Election bribes for NACT voters. Just like Muldoon. Remember him. Without the cuts we could pay for welfare without borrowing.

  6. sprout,

    In Gerrit’s world financiers and and money managers will continue to earn $300,000+ and support staff in schools will continue on $13 dollars an hour.


    Do you read what I’ve written?

    I have already said the current system (and that includes overpaid directors) is not sustainable thus the issue of envy on who gets paid more is mute. The system will collapse and the company directors will be as poor as you.

    For goodness sake let the envy go. It is not sustainable either.


    No health system at all then?
    I have a feeling – you’re all right eh?

    You will have a health system but only one that society can afford. What with the “I have a feeling bit”? More envy? I’m OK yes, thank you for asking, having fought and beat breat cancer (and yes males can get it too).

    A future society may not have the funding (or probably the desire) to treat me and I will succumb to my illness. Fact of life, get used to future reality.


    Option (2) will mean that more fortunate people will have to sacrifice some of what they make to help those who are less fortunate (and I’m not referring to free loaders here). That’s the price that must be paid to avoid the “law of the jungle” that will result from option (1).

    There seem be be an illusion that somehow the “rich” have absconded with the money. Have they? Is it stored in underground vaults? No they create the illusion of money through funny little schemes, they dont actually have any hard cash as such. Problem is that the poor believe that they do, that huge tracts of folding stuff are squirrelled away.

    Its bonkum, the money is a paper trail, it does not exist, there is no eldorado, nor fountain of eternal money supply. No “wealth” is created by printing money.

    That is the whole point. Banking, money supply, credit and debt are just tools used to entrap the masses.

    Only by the masses no longer buying into the con-job that is banking will they set themselves free from it.

    The power to change lies in the mirror you use.

    That “revolution” is happening and we see its manifestation in the masses delevering their debt. Pay back what is owed and dont borrow any more. It will collapse the system.

    However there is going to pain. The state is borrowing to pay for the welfare safety net. That has to stop but we )the masses) dont really want it gone ( nor does the state as the masses might revolt – witness the Greek chaos) so it will remain at the glee of the banking system.

  7. “…A frequent terminator of such conditions is war and revolution. ..”

    another ‘terminator’ can be less violent..

    ..namely a seachange in attitudes/the zeitgeist…

    ..and in my roamings for whoar i am seeing signs of that coming about…

    ..there seems to be a spreading realisation..’in the middle’..that we cannot continue as we have been…

    ..allowing these freemarket dogmas to rule over all…

    ..and following this road of ever widening economic chasms…

    …favouring only the already rich…

    ..and impoverishing/taking from most others…

    ..signs of that change are that those very rich are now being viewed in a much less ‘positive’-light…

    …and their eyewatering increases in that wealth..at our expense is increasingly being viewed as fair-game/a target..

    (didyaknow that a 15% windfall tax on americas’ billionairs would solve americas’ economic woes..?..

    ..just like that..!


    it is also a far less bloody/violent re-adjustment …

    …than ‘war and revolution’…



  8. “The future will not contain a welfare state, only self reliant, independent people living green lifestyles of sustainability.”

    Gerrit, even in so called sustainable economies I would imagine there would have to be taxation and a state sector. There also has to be an investment in things that will save the state money in the long term and add to the strength of our economy. Investment in education is an investment in our future workforce and community leaders. Investment into our health system means those who could be a long term and costly burden (through delayed care) can be financially independent. Investment into properly targeted welfare and justice systems and rehabilitation mean those who could be a costly burden in prisons are safely working in communities and adding to the economy. We need to invest in R&D that will help make our agricultural practices productive but more sustainable and our industries innovative and competitive. We need to make ourselves both energy efficient and independent and ensure that the true costs of production are absorbed by the producer and not subsidized by the tax payer. We need to build an efficient and economical transport infrastructure that will support industries and the public in the long term.

    We need to value those things that actually add value to our economy and the broad health of our society and have strategies that look beyond the next election. The potential costs to our economy and environment will be huge if we follow the present line of governance which supports corporate financial sector profits and cuts to investment in things that lead to sustainable economies and healthy communities and environments. The money is currently there to do much of this, it is all about priorities!

  9. “I’m suprised you did not include the able bodied unemployed in your list of people in society’s hammock”

    Administrators, accountants, politicians, finance companies, lawyers, trust fund kids, derivatives traders, shareholders, finance company inside traders, dairy farmers, banks, superannuates..

    At least people will probably think my skills are worth my food.

  10. Gerrit

    The fact that the wealthy won the class war isn’t news. It happened. The facts you are complaining about are real enough as well.

    Solving one part of the problem and ignoring the other doesn’t solve the whole problem, just rejigs which mob has the advantage. Green policy and principles say that NO mob should have an advantage.

    This is quite clear. The one-sided nature of the current situation with respect to banks and investment entities wielding power over nations and peoples, is historically a short-lived one. A frequent terminator of such conditions is war and revolution.

    That doesn’t make it any less incumbent on us to call it as we see it. The likely result is, because the country is divided into red and blue with barely a hint of green, going to simply be a pendulum swing in the other direction.

    Give Green a chance.

  11. Gerrit,

    You’re right that “You cannot make rules to “look” after people if society does not have the means to do so.”

    However (luckily), society does have the means to look after “the people who are too ill, handicapped, young or old to be self reliant.”

    When things get tough there are two routes that a society can follow: (1) let individuals look after themselves as best as they can, or (2) group together and try and look after everyone as best as possible. Option (2) will mean that more fortunate people will have to sacrifice some of what they make to help those who are less fortunate (and I’m not referring to free loaders here). That’s the price that must be paid to avoid the “law of the jungle” that will result from option (1).

    The reality of human nature is that not all people will voluntarily sacrifice in order to help those who are less fortunate (some will, but others won’t), so some degree of “coercion” will be necessary (enforced taxation for example).

  12. “if not, then Nature will take it’s course.”

    Too right Gerrit – yet we have spent thousands of years ‘civilizing’ the place exactly so this doesn’t happen.
    No health system at all then?
    I have a feeling – you’re all right eh?

  13. In Gerrit’s world financiers and and money managers will continue to earn $300,000+ and support staff in schools will continue on $13 dollars an hour. Those struggling on $300,000 will gain more in tax cuts then support staff will ever hope to earn in a full year in work.

    When many teachers earn less than $50,000 I was appalled when I read the Annual Report for Medical Assurance, essentially this is an insurance and investment company managed as a society for the benefits of members, but having to pay market rates for staff and directors:

    Directors’ remuneration paid during the year or due and payable is as follows:
    Dr R J Tyler $82,412
    Mr J K W Isles $54,912
    Ms K M S Ayers $34,168
    Mr H M Clentworth $41,268
    Dr A J Fenton $34,168
    Dr LEJ King $35,588
    Dr H W Rodenburg $34,168
    Ms M A Smith $46,238
    Mr C J Thompson $49,078
    Dr Tyler has additionally received $2,600 for medical advisory work done for
    the Society at standard rates. The cost of travel to Board meetings for out-of-town
    Directors has been met by the Society. Directors received no other payments.
    $420,000–$430,000 1 employee
    $240,000–$250,000 1 employee
    $180,000–$190,000 3 employees
    $160,000–$170,000 1 employee
    $150,000–$160,000 2 employees
    $140,000–$150,000 2 employees
    $130,000–$140,000 2 employees
    $120,000–$130,000 6 employees
    $110,000–$120,000 4 employees
    $100,000–$110,000 15 employees

    It costs over 5 million dollars to employ 38 staff who are basically accountants and clerical staff.

    Compare this to a large primary school employing similar staff numbers and responsible for looking after approximately 450 students (figures are rough estimates but shouldn’t be to far out for the purposes of this comparison):
    $100,000-$120,000 1 employee (principal)
    $70,000-$80,000 3 employees (DP/AP)
    $50,000-$65,000 6 employees (experienced teachers)
    $44,000-$50,000 9 employees (degreed younger or beginning teachers)
    $35,000-$40,000 2 employees (School Manager/Secretary and caretaker)
    $10,000-$20,000 12 employees (teacher aids, support staff, cleaners)
    $1,000-$10,000 6 employees (part-time cleaners, support staff)

    Many of the staff at Medical Assurance will earn more in tax breaks than what half a school’s employees will earn in a year. The directors top up their main employment with allowances and benefits greater than many fulltime teachers. New Zealand pays what appears to be internationally accepted rates for those working in finance or management (it is claimed that this is necessary to attract overseas applicants to these jobs) but screws done the wages of those working in other sectors.

    It is easy to see why New Zealand is one of the most inequitable countries in the world when we value work around money far more than supporting people.

  14. Kerry,

    While the Phillipino society model is not one you want to live in, we will get to replicate that society simply becasue of our unsustainble lifestyle.

    The old blame the noe-lib for all the woes excuse.

    Jeez, when is the revolution?

    It is not the neo-lib fault, the fault stares back from ALL the mirrors we look into as a society (except for me as I’m old, ugly and bald and never look in a mirror).

  15. Ah, But Gerrit we do have the means to do so. NZ can feed and house many times our current population with our current production.
    What you are proposing already exists, in the Philippines.

    Not the type of society I want to live in.

    The able bodied unemployed is a deliberate construct of our current form of capitalism. They are needed to scare the employed away from demanding fair wages, and small businesses from charging more, for the benefit of a few already wealthy people and large corporates. As the cause of the able bodied unemployed they should be paying for them.

    In a fair society people would be paid for fixing the old ladies garden. i know many unemployed who would be ecstatic to have a constructive satisfying job like that one.

    Neo-liberalism however does not value anything or anybody which does not include a price tag.

  16. Kerry,

    Gerrit. What are you going to do with the people who are too ill, handicapped, young or old to be self reliant? Are they to be euthanased, or simply allowed to starve?

    The community will look after them, as best they can.

    If not, then nature will take its course.

    You cannot make rules to “look” after people if society does not have the means to do so.

    I’m suprised you did not include the able bodied unemployed in your list of people in society’s hammock.

    After all we need to find them jobs, no?

    Able bodied unemployed should be supporting society (by say growing vegetables for example) so that the too ill, handicapped, young or old are fed.

    When I see a littered street or an old ladies garden in a mess and see able bodied people sitting around aimlessly doing nothing when so much can be done, then I know our society is in grave decline.

    If that society is not sustainable, the society will wither away.

    Simple Green economics. If it is not sustainable it withers.

  17. I agree starting a business is not easy. It takes a great deal of hard work, perseverance, skill, serendipity and luck. Plus a very thick skin when dealing with those who say will not work, and with bank managers.

    Getting capital for a business beyound existing equity in a house and or land is so difficult in New Zealand it is surprising we do have so many start ups.

    Anyone who has built a successful, productive and useful business from scratch should earn over the average. (So long as they employ staff at fair rates of pay and uses resources wisely).

    I do not think many here have a problem with that.

    Personally I have no problem with people like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs earning heaps after successfully standardising computers and user interfaces to make them easy to use for non-geeks, or Peter Jackson for entertaining millions.
    Or a surgeon after years of training and effort getting several times the average wage.

    I do have a problem with people who earn much more than the rest of us for the following:
    Gamble in shares, national currencies and derivatives having all the rights, but none of the responsibilities of a company founder/Owner. Starving millions and destroying the incomes of millions more so they can stay on their gravy train.
    Managers who only know how to cut costs and increase b-s short term getting, often, 100’s of times the average wage as a reward for gutting productive enterprises for short term career advantage.
    Financial wizz kids who find ever more creative ways of removing wealth from the productive and useful economy.
    Politicians who accept funding from these people so they can stay in power.

    If we had a democracy I expect most of these things would be criminal offenses.

    The amount of spending on welfare for poor or disadvantaged people is minuscule compared with the amount of wealth that is burgled from us by these people every year.

  18. Gerrit. What are you going to do with the people who are too ill, handicapped, young or old to be self reliant? Are they to be euthanased, or simply allowed to starve?

  19. sprout,

    you ever run a business in new Zealand?

    If we read the the guidelines in the pdf file contained in the report we find this little gem

    The ease of doing business index is
    limited in scope. It does not account for
    a economy’s proximity to large markets,
    the quality of its infrastructure services
    (other than services related to trading
    across borders), the strength of the fi-
    nancial system, the security of property
    from theft and looting, macroeconomic
    conditions or the strength of underlying
    institutions. There remains a large unfinished
    agenda for research into what regulation
    constitutes binding constraints,
    what package of reforms is most effective
    and how these issues are shaped by the
    context on an economy.

    So what the heck do they measure to achieve varies country rankings?

    The ease of business ranking is COMPARED to other nations. Not how easy it is to actualy operate a business in New Zealand. While other countries make it more difficult, it does not mean it is easy in New Zealand.

    Do you include Maori authorities in the rich people envy statement on taxation?

    This from the IRD

    Māori authority tax rate

    Taxable income received by Māori authorities attracts a tax rate of 19.5%.


    Where are we heading?????

    Third world status where there is no welfare because we New Zealand has no tradeable sector to pay the taxes to keep a safety net (hammock) under society.

    Instead of the gnashing of teeth and futile wringing of hands, how about you come up with solutions on how to reinstate first world status to New Zealand society.

    My view is we have a lot further to go in regards the restructuring of New Zealand society, global isolationism has yet to set in and countries will be retracting into self preservation and self reliance.

    The future will not contain a welfare state, only self reliant, independent people living green lifestyles of sustainability.

    Be prepared to get your hands dirty.

  20. New Zealand is one of the easiest countries in the world to do business in:
    New Zealand has one of the lowest tax regimes in the world for higher earners and far less than in Australia:

    Those on the lowest incomes, however, continue to shoulder a greater burden, especially as regards GST. New Zealand is one of the most inequitable countries in the OECD and the inequities of income between men and women is growing. Employment legislation is rapidly favouring employers with draconian changes to sick leave and trial periods.

    Where are we heading??????

  21. toad,

    Don’t you get it?

    Yep, its the hairy evil big rich guy versus the poor little but oh so good guy stance.

    You really think that bogey exists dont you toad, the VRWC theory.

    Cant wait for the “class warfare” statement.

    By the way toad, you might find this interesting

    Dr Cullen, who last year cancelled the infamous “chewing gum” tax cuts that would have come into effect yesterday,……


  22. Toad, I think it wasn’t so much looking after those who fund and vote for the National party, but an attempt to get rid of a rort in the system that had emerged after the original increase in the top personal tax rate to 39% – you had people who were putting their income into trusts so they would only pay a 33% tax rate, and that was having a serious impact on tax revenue.

    Of course, the better way of solving that problem would have been to increase the trust tax rate to 39% and instead given the tax cut to lower income people and/or business. A further way of solving the problem would have been to simply wait – that rort is currently the subject of a Supreme Court case, and at the Court of Appeal level, it was deemed to be tax avoidance.

  23. Um, Gerrit, Cullen didn’t cancel the chewing gum tax cuts. He went ahead with them in 2008 and the Greens were not impressed at the time.

    I thought they were a stupid idea then, and still do.

    National then introduced massive income tax cuts under Parliamentary urgency before Christmas 2008, and then belatedly did the sums and they too then realised they were unaffordable. So they canceled them in the 2009 Budget.

    Now they reinstate their income tax cuts, in a bigger and “braver” version, but offset the fiscal impact of doing so with an increase in GST, which is a very regressive tax that impacts disproportionately on people on low incomes.

    It is just National looking after those who fund and vote for them, Gerrit, and the rest of us pay. Don’t you get it?

  24. Remind me a gains what the Greens stance was regarding Cullen cancelling the Labour election promise of tax cuts (the famous chewing gum tax).

    Cant quite recall, but silence had something to do with it?

    Kettle meeting pot?

  25. When previous Governments have breached their election pledges like this, the media have been all over them like dose of herpes. Why does Teflon-John have an immunity?

  26. Im still waiting to see whether WE are ALL going to be better off & if so, WHO is the best off ? as a result of this promise to NOT increase the GST !! I cant believe anyone can still trust this ‘Govt.’

  27. I quoted this last time this went up.
    “………if we are doing a half decent job, that won’t be happening!”

    Oh dear…..your own assessment, Mr Key.

  28. I dont agree taxing the hell out of rich people who invest $$$ into our economy and often employ many New Zealanders.

    If they actually invested it here I wouldn’t be too worried, but that ain’t happening. Nor are they paying tax at even the SAME rate that I do…

    That’s the point on which you are being jerked around by National. Those clowns on half a mill and up are not paying “MORE” of anything and aren’t getting the hell taxed out of them. They are screwing the middle class more thoroughly every year though… and people who buy that “investing in NZ” crap while their investments are in just about anywhere BUT New Zealand are keeping them in power.

    There are people who lie to us. Elected because they are better liars than the other mob.

    This is the Green party. We tell the truth. Not a popular thing in politics. 🙂


  29. Define wealthy ?, My partner and I get about $40 a week in tax cuts and our GST increase will hit us $13 more, so overall we are better off.

    I wouldnt consider myself wealthy though. Comfortable yes, wealthy no, I still work 40 hours a week to pay bills & mortgage.

    I dont agree with making the poorer richer at the expense of the middle class, fact is its not the rich who pay the bulk of the tax bill, its the middle class.

    I dont agree taxing the hell out of rich people who invest $$$ into our economy and often employ many New Zealanders.

    Short of communism I dont have a solution either, but trust National are doing what they think is right, perhaps we need to give them another 2 terms for their plan to work rather than flip flop vote and go nowhere.

  30. Whats the next thing they are going promise NOT To DO ? Sell off public assetts, give bigger tax breaks to the wealthiest (oh yea theyve already done that)… etc etc

  31. gst fibs, though potentially ruinous, are one amongst many “ideas” that ordinary people can’t afford.
    Unless the Tax cuts are in the 20 – 50% range.

    We have three concurrent Tax Systems plus ‘user pays’ – in a word, Fraud!

    Yet the Gnats seem to promulgate all kinds of expenses that help themselves – will NZ survive another term of such foolery?
    Poverty rates up, crime rates up, etc etc etc.

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