by frog
Merv Wellington was Minister of Education under the Muldoon administration. In my opinion – at least until today – Wellington was the worst Minister of Education New Zealand has ever seen.
There is not much on the internet about him, but Wellington was a fundamentalist Christian who banned all sex and drug education in New Zealand’s schools. He was also obsessed with requiring the New Zealand flag to be flown at school assemblies, and requiring students to salute it every day.
But above all, Merv Wellington presided over substantial cuts in tertiary education funding, which understandably drew substantial protests from tertiary student organisations. Wellington’s response was to make no response at all. He refused to reply to letters from student leaders (which eventually resulted in a guerilla student expedition to his home, and the explosive demolition of his letterbox).
Yesterday, the current Minister of Education, Anne Tolley, followed the lead of her predecessor from 30 years ago. The NZ Herald reports:
Kay Hume, a Year One teacher at decile 5 Puni School, south of Pukekohe, said working with the new standards had been heartbreaking. The revised benchmarks were “drawing an unrealistic line of achievement”.
The conference heard that just one child in Miss Hume’s class of 21 was close to meeting the required standards in reading. “You are setting up our children to fail,” she told Mrs Tolley. Last term she started showing parents how their children were faring against the National Standards in reading.
“They asked, ‘Is my child a failure?’ I said, ‘According to National Standards, yes, but according to me they are doing exactly what they are supposed to be doing’.”
Miss Hume asked Mrs Tolley: “Will you listen to the experiences of the sector this year and call a halt to the implementation of National Standards while these fundamental flaws are addressed?”
Mrs Tolley replied: “The answer is no, we will not stop, and I’m appalled that any teacher would say to any parent that their child is a failure.”
Like Merv Wellington 30 years before her, Anne Tolley is taking an intransigent and ideological position. She doesn’t care about the evidence, and won’t respond substantively to those who question her policies – even though almost every professional in the education sector knows she is hopelessly wrong and that her flawed version of National Standards will certainly fail our children’s education.
Anne Tolley is just as much an authoritarian ideologue as Merv Wellington. I had hoped we had seen the last of politicians who refuse to respond to reasoned, evidence-based argument, but it seems not.
Published in Society & Culture by frog on Tue, September 28th, 2010
Tags: Anne Tolley. Merv Wellington. National Standards, Education, Kay Hume
on the trolls and those who are unable to keep on topic
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I don’t think so..
“BOOT THEM OUT.. YES WE CAN !!”
Kia-ora
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Um, photonz1 hasn’t commented on this thread (yet) Robert!
But good to see you get the preemptive strike to photonz1′s inevitable sycophancy to Chopper Tolley in before s/he comments with the usual doctrinaire and evidence-poor drivel.
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ah toad – an invitation.
So we have a class of children who are unlikely to achieve national standards, and what do know?
Is this a slow class?
Is this class different to most?
Does the teacher need more training?
Is the same problem happening everywhere?
All prudent questions to be asked, if anybody was TRUELY interested in finding out what the problem is.
But nobody asked a thing.
It could be a slow class.
It could be a poor teacher or methods.
It could be the kids don’t eat breakfast.
But what do the head-in-the-sand people do? Find out what the real problem is?
No.
Never mind if there’s actually a problem. We can use a class with poor results that we can use as a club to hit Tolly with.
As has been shown in many different issues, on many different occasions, for many on this site the top priority is hurling abuse.
And why let facts and information, or lack of them get, in the way of the top priority.
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A random question – what is wrong with flying the flag at school assembly?
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Frightens the children john-ston.
That nylon can snap something terrible and the swirling of the coloured cloth brings on migraines in some delicate children.
For the staff, it brings back the best-forgotten memory of Merv and that can put you right off teaching for a couple of hours.
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photonz1 said “But nobody asked a thing”
Miss Hume asked Mrs Tolley: “Will you listen to the experiences of the sector this year and call a halt to the implementation of National Standards while these fundamental flaws are addressed?”
photonz1 said “But nobody asked a thing”.
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Miss Humes class (with the exception of one child) looks to be performing below the national standard in reading.
She says the parents of her children are worried that their children are failures, according to the ruling this standard creates.
Photonz1, using his extrordinary powers of deduction and investigation, declares that those he calls ‘head in the sand people’ who he claims are not TRUELY interested in finding out what the problem is, do nothing to find out why this is so, ask no questions about the childrens’ reading abilities.
How does photonz1 know this?
Has photonz1 visited the school tolearn what has been done? No. Photonz1 makes up sh*t.
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Anne Tolley, Minister for wrecking primary education, is a fool. Sorry, but it’s the only conclusion I can reach. She doesn’t seem to have the first or faintest idea of what “national standards” are actually going to mean in practice. To maintain this blissful state of ignorance she has had to ignore veritable mountains of expert and professional advice. It is literally unbelievable. Here’s the final straw:
Education Minister Anne Tolley yesterday told teachers she would be “appalled” if they told parents their children were failing National Standards.
… [A teacher] started showing parents how their children were faring against the National Standards in reading. “They asked, ‘Is my child a failure?’ I said, ‘According to National Standards, yes, but according to me they are doing exactly what they are supposed to be doing’.” … Mrs Tolley replied: “… I’m appalled that any teacher would say to any parent that their child is a failure.”
What the (pardon me) hell does Tolley think national standards are for? You achieve them or you don’t, if you don’t achieve them you’ve failed to achieve them. If you don’t achieve them you’re a failure. That’s one of the major flaws with national standards, and that’s exactly what experts and professionals have been telling Tolley for months!
Experts:
We are very concerned that the intended National Standards system wrongly assumes that children are failing if they do not meet the standard for their age. This will lead to the repeated labelling of many young children as failures and will be self-fulfilling because it will damage children’s self-esteem and turn them off learning and achieving in literacy and numeracy and other curricula areas.
The PPTA:
The policy is driven by ideology. Research evidence shows that National Standards will not lead to improved outcomes for students. They will simply label individual students as failures, and may lead to league tables that wrongly label schools as failures. Many countries that have gone down this route in the past are now turning away from it. Refusing to recognise the weight of local and international evidence against such policies is most unwise.
The New Zealand Principals Federation:
Many children, who do not reach the national standards will be labelled as failures, by their parents and peers. This will be inevitable in Years 1 and 2, as the gap between high and low decile children at age 5 is already huge, and hard to eradicate in the short term. This factor will be tragic for young children, as negative labels are always hard to shake off.
The New Zealand Educational Institute in the media:
The first round of reporting against the standards has begun labelling children as failures, with parents and teachers now conceding that for many students, this process, as predicted, is damaging their motivation to learn.
And so on and so on, a universal chorus of resistance to Anne Tolley’s stupid national standards. Standards that label children as failures. That’s what they’re designed to do. That’s what everyone has been complaining about. And now Anne Tolley is “appallled” – she is “appalled that any teacher would say to any parent that their child is a failure”. Unbelievable. Key needs to show some actual leadership and bundle this blithering idiot on to the back benches, out of harms way. Because it is our children that she is harming.
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And photonz1, Ozy Mandias on Keeping Stock comments thus:
Lets look at one of the Maths standards. Lets take the year 7 and 8 standards as I work in that area. Under the Number and Algebra section we have the following statements…
YEAR 7 – apply additive and multiplicative strategies flexibly to whole numbers, ratios, and equivalent fractions (including percentages
and then
YEAR 8 – apply multiplicative strategies flexibly to whole numbers, ratios, and equivalent fractions (including decimals and percentages)
You will notice there are only two word changes between the years. This makes working our where a child is almost impossible. One teacher might rank a child above the standard while another below. Furthermore what happens if a kids can do half of the standards at one level but struggles with the other. Where do you place the child then? This is maths which is a relativeley concrete subject. The standards are just as vague in english where it is even more down to the teacher.
While the NS are good in theory they have been rushed through without any thought or training. HOW CAN YOU HAVE A NATIONAL STANDARD WITHOUT A SPECIFIC BENCHMARK??? The Governement wants us to report to standards but then they give us vague statments to measure against with no training. The Ministry in their wisdom have advised us to use OTJ (overall Teacher Judgements)by looking at a wide variety of assessments to match kids up with the standards. Surely if it was standard you wouldn’t need OTJ’s.
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john-ston, I wasn’t suggesting that there is anything wrong with flying the flag at school assemblies (apart from imo our one being boring and easily confused with those of other countries, but that is a matter for another thread sometime).
But something was seriously amiss that flying the flag and banning sex education could become a Minister of Education’s flagship policies while that Minister refused to engage with the education sector about their legitimate concerns.
Just as something is seriously amiss when Tolley rabbits on about how wonderful National Standards are, while apparently having no clue about how they are operating in practice and refusing to engage with teachers over their concerns about the standards’ implementation.
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Robert says “Photonz1, using his extrordinary powers of deduction and investigation, declares that those he calls ‘head in the sand people’ who he claims are not TRUELY interested in finding out what the problem is, do nothing to find out why this is so, ask no questions about the childrens’ reading abilities.
How does photonz1 know this?”
Simple. Just read the posts above, and find that nobody asked a thing about the class in question. No a single thing.
No one was worried if there was actually a problem with the childrens learning.
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I’m with photonz here
What is the issue? Is it that the standard is ill defined as robert suggests? if so, how does the teacher quoted know all but one of her class are failing?
Is the standard artificially high? Well we don’t know but I’m going to assume that it set is a reasonable level of capability for the majority of students. Not too high, not too low.
Or does she have a class of ESL kids who could never be expected to achieve it? In which case you’d expect a policy to have some flexibility, or the schoold to take that into account when reporting to parents.
Like Tolley, I’m appalled that the teacher says the response is to baldly tell them the child’s a failure. I’d expect as a parent that the standard would be a motivation to put in place a plan to achieve it. Maybe not this year, maybe the next.
I’m also concerned that a teacher seems resigned that her whole class is unable to achieve a standard and that that is the fault of the standard.
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Left wing people do not care whether children learn or not. Quack.
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Utter drivel.
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insider@9:39
Likewise.
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solkta@9:42
Accurate as ever.
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The revised benchmarks were “drawing an unrealistic line of achievement”.“
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“No one was worried if there was actually a problem with the childrens learning.”
Tell me photonz1 – do you actually believe that?
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Why assume that, insider? Essentially, you are saying “trust Tolley has got it right”, when she herself has said that the standards are aspirational and “some were set at ‘higher than normal age-group achievement’”.
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solkta….i think you are lost/in the wrong place…
(they are expecting/waiting for you over at that rightwing circle-jerk…kiwiblog…
..and as you all pause for rhetoric…you will get a circle-nod for ‘lefty/education’ gems like that..eh..?)
(and here is a cartoon-strip for ya..!..eh..?..)
http://whoar.co.nz/2010/the-boy-detective-cant-help-wondering-why-are-liberals-indifferent-to-the-menace-of-sharia-law/
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Phil – you’ve missed the cynicism of solkta’s jibe, correctly and accurately aimed at photonz1.
Solkta fires these off whenever photonz1 gets too, too ridiculous (more and more often now-a-days) and hits the mark every single time.
He’s a brick (photonz1 is a pane).
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insider said: Like Tolley, I’m appalled that the teacher says the response is to baldly tell them the child’s a failure.
[A teacher] started showing parents how their children were faring against the National Standards in reading. “They asked, ‘Is my child a failure?’ I said, ‘According to National Standards, yes, but according to me they are doing exactly what they are supposed to be doing’.” … Mrs Tolley replied: “… I’m appalled that any teacher would say to any parent that their child is a failure.”
Tolley are you insider?
Insider are you Tolley?
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my bad…..redirect…
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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@toad
I made the assumption because 1) I didn’t know 2) there was no mention of it in the report and I’d have thought that teachers’ first concern to come through would have been around an unrealistic standard for the age group. The example robert cited also looked a reasonable expectation for that level, even though he seems to have a problem interpreting it.
@ robert
Brilliantly marshalled argument
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@ robert
It’s weird how for years teachers have been telling us they don;t want to say kids are failing but now seem happy to use the label when it suits politically. Your attempted ad hom is just a bit sad.
If a kid is dicking around and not using their abilities then I;m happy for them and their parents to be told they are failing, with all its pejorative overtones.
But if they are doing their best and not coming up to the standard for whatever reason, then I’d expect a good teacher to contextualise it a bit more subtly than Miss Hume.
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insider – I think you miss the point that teachers are loathe to lable students ‘failures’ but that the standard requires that many children will fail to ‘reach the mark’and parents will be/must be informed of that. Miss Hume describes that clearly when she says that the national standards necessitate a pass/fail description wjhere she personally would say to parents that the children ” are doing exactly what they are supposed to be doing”
What is it that you don’t understand here?
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Its always easy to join the mob & put the boot in.. maybe this Minister should be offering solutions to issues/problems ? I guess it show the direction this N-ACT Govt. is taking us.. right, right & further right >>
Kia-ora
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robert – as usual you have posts after post of abuse.
And then you expect us to believe your main priority is the children at Puni School.
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National’s ‘national standards’ are a crock!
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Robert
You must be making that up or have not read the guidelines. There is absolutely no requirement that “national standards necessitate a pass/fail description”. Miss Hume either hasn’t read the material or hasn’t understood it, which perhaps explains her students’ problems, becuause it took me all of five minutes to find it in the guidelines for reporting to families:
“What a report shouldn’t have
In order to avoid damaging a child’s engagement and motivation to learn, a report must not:
imply fault or failure. For example, ‘Michael is lazy’, ‘He needs to apply himself more if he is to reach the standard’. ‘The school has not tried enough to help Michael apply himself ’. ‘Michael has failed to reach the standard’. ‘The school has failed to help Michael achieve the standard’”
So a quite explicit instruction to Miss Hume to exactly not do what she is doing. Why has she missed this and why has her principal allowed her to act outside guidelines?
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Insider – the ‘great selling point’ of national standards was trumpeted as being ‘parents will at last know exactly where their child stands in relation to every other child their age – these standards remove the vagueness of diverse tests – the provide certainty and allow valid comparison to be made’.
Now you are suggesting that teachers will have to sugar-coat the reporting, ‘Your child is hovering around the standard (I can’t say on which side) and might or mightn’t need assistance, I can’t say for fear that you’ll work out the he/she is below the mark etc. This is madness.
Please explain insider.
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Robert
you’re the one saying (and I quote you again) “national standards necessitate a pass/fail description” and that is a very bad thing. I’ve shown you to be just plain wrong and now I have to justify why things have to be sugar coated?
Go do some effing research like I did to find out why, not just accept the emotive unbalanced pleadings of a vested interest as gospel. (I should note that I already said I am quite happy for lazy kids to be told they are failing, so I have nothing to justify). But of course that is really just you trying to create a distraction from your own ‘fail’.
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“I’ve shown you to be just plain wrong ”
no, what your saying is that the guidelines are contradictory to the nature of a ‘national standard’. you can achieve or fail to achieve the standard. whether you use the word fail or not, you need to communicate a child’s level relative to the standard and this necessitates a synonym of fail for those who have not achieved (not achieved=failed to achieve) the standard.
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“I should note that I already said I am quite happy for lazy kids to be told they are failing, so I have nothing to justify”
so the stupid kids must not be told they’re failing but it’s ok for the lazy ones. um, did I miss the part where national standards magically differentiate the stupid from the lazy?
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Students will pass or fail to pass the ‘standard’.
Parents will be advised.
They will know whether their child has passed or failed to pass the standard.
Am I wrong?
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How does the teacher know if the children will be up to National Standard at the end of the year when she is applying it half way through the year – and surprise surprise – telling parents their children have failed.
That’s appalling.
Our school is probably in exactly the same position with the few children at end of year standards when they are only half way through.
But instead of sending out messages of failure, our school sent out info in term 2 reports on what needs to be learnt in the following HALF YEAR to schieve National Standards by years end.
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Photonz1 said:
“How does the teacher know if the children will be up to National Standard at the end of the year when she is applying it half way through the year – and surprise surprise – telling parents their children have failed.”
Photonz1! This is exactly the story you told about yourself!
You said your child’s teacher told you, halfway through the year, that your child needed to do extra work at home or he/she would not reach the standard at the end of the year.
Your hypocrisy is breathtaking!
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Are you guys stupid, or just pretending to be?
Reporting will be done in the same manner as it always has been with the myriad of standards previously used.
It’s a concept my eight year old can understand.
What’s the sudden anal obsession with terms pass and fail, when standards have not been, and will not be, reported in that way.
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Photonz1 – if your child ‘fell short’ of the national standard in maths (the one you did homework to ensure that your child would achieve the standard by years end) would you be made aware of that?
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robert – The differnce is simple.
The Pukekohe Teacher has said children have already failed, when they are still half a year away from being assessed.
Our teacher has suggested ideas for things to do at home, that would help our children acheive the standards in six months time.
(and never said they would fail if they didn’t do these things at home).
Robert – (apart from making things up) if you can’t see the difference in the two completely different approaches, then you probably would not achieve National Standards for reading comprehension for end of year one
- or to use your favourite term, you would fail.
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@ robert yes I’d say you are wrong at the first hurdle. The guidance on the NS says to me that it is not a strict pass/fail standard like 50% in school cert. You’ve not put forward any evidence to contradict that. I wait with bated breath.
NS look nothing new on what is currently being done around assessment apart from creating a achievemnt target rather than a zone (and that’s arguable).
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robert ask “Photonz1 – if your child ‘fell short’ of the national standard in maths (the one you did homework to ensure that your child would achieve the standard by years end) would you be made aware of that?”
The stupidity of your questions is just getting worse.
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“The stupidity of your questions is just getting worse.”
.
that’s a valid question. at some point a child sits a test to discover if they meet the national standard. a proportion of children will fail to do so. parent’s are to be given feedback about whether or not the child has met the standards but their failure to do so must not be in any way framed as being a failure. I can see his point quite clearly, why can’t you?
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http://thestandard.org.nz/anne-tolley-is-a-fool/
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nommoppilot says “at some point a child sits a test to discover if they meet the national standard. ”
You don’t even have that bit right. It’s not an exam – it’s an assessment.
Have you actually bothered to find out even the most basic of information about National Standards work, or have you just jumped on some abusive bandwagon in complete ignorance?
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“Have you actually bothered to find out even the most basic of information about National Standards work”
so hang on a sec, photonz. at one moment national standards can give us concrete information about where children stand, but the next moment it sounds a lot less concrete. it sounds like assessment against the standard relies on the judgement of teachers and the reports the parents get don’t actually say whether the standards have been achieved?
my point is: at some point, the child is judged and is considered to have achieved or not achieved the national standard. stop evading the question, please.
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photonz1 – you have (elsewhere) described the national standards as an ‘accurate measure’. I presume you mean that a child can be accurately measured against others of his own age across the country. Dsepite the obvious issues with that idea (the difference in boy/girl academic devlopment rates, variations amongst same gender groups, socio-economic groups etc.)When the results of whatever testing is used to decide upon a child’s position in terms of the national standard that applies to him are known, will he find himself/herself either above, below or on that standard – remember, you have said this is an accurate measurement.
If such a position is established for a child, will that posiution be communicated to the parent?
Your answer will doubtless reduce the degree of stupidity in my future questions about national standards.
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insider -”The guidance on the NS says to me that it is not a strict pass/fail standard like 50% in school cert”
That’s a good point and one photonz1, who has described the national standards as an ‘accurate measure’ will soon, we hope, answer for both of us. You seem to be saying that the standards are vague and inaccurate. Maybe this is so.
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“It’s not an exam – it’s an assessment” sounds terribly vague – I understood this was an ‘accurate measure’.
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@ robert
I assumed from the noise around NS that it would be a series of standard moderated tasks that children would be expected to do at various stages – a bit like the PAT tests I did as a child – like reading comp, basic maths and science concepts, maybe even physical ones too. Not as pass/fail exams but to give guidance on what areas need more work. Now it seems more like NCEA achievement standards.
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photonz1 will make it all clear for us insider – he has access to the details and real hands-on experience with the standards.
I have never thought of the ‘standards’ as being ‘an exam’ – the method of gathering data doesn’t concern me at all, but I did think that at some point a judgement could be made regarding a child’s ‘position’ with regard the appropriate standard. If that judgement can be made, then the child must be able to be viewed as above or below the standard, I’d have thought. The parents must be able to learn where that position is for their child (accurate, meaningful reporting) and would be able to see clearly where their child was in relation to others. Is that not the whole point?
That being the case, the parent must be able to work out for themselves whether their child is above or below the standard and can descide whether their child has passed the standard or has failed to reach it.
Again, though I’m anxious about asking you, am I wrong in my assessment (this is not an exam btw – I’m just trying to assess whether you believe I’m correct or not).
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That’s what I thought it was trying to do too, but it appears it’s not quite like that is the best answer I can give.
That’s why I think NS is nothing to get worked up about as it is mostly doing what is already being done – perhaps with more precision. I think you could be slightly annoyed it’s therefore a waste of time, particularly as a teacher, but no point thinking it is anymore a sign of the end of the education system than any other piece of bureaucracy.
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Here is what four of our most respected educationalists think about these National Standards:
http://www.educationaotearoa.org.nz/all-stories/2010/7/18/twenty-fundamental-flaws-in-the-national-standards-policy.html
http://www.nzei.org.nz/site/nzeite/files/misc%20documents/Lester's%20NATIONAL%20STANDARDS%20FACT%20SHEET.pdf
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sunday-star-times/news/3041771/National-standards-disaster-feared
http://www.handsupforlearning.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/MartinThrupp_NationalStandards.pdf
Photonz1, I would be interested to know what superior knowledge you have over these internationally regarded experts?
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http://www.lesterflockton.co.nz/press/?p=33
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“That’s why I think NS is nothing to get worked up about as it is mostly doing what is already being done”
Then can I put it to you insider, that the teachers are getting worked up about something they can see but you can’t?
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Speaking of Merv, wasn’t it his National Ltd™ successor Lockwood Smith who “wrote in stone” that that student loans scheme would be scrapped?
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Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
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@ robert you quite reasonably can, but bear in mind that the highly agitated Miss Hume didn’t seem to have done her homework on the requirements around the NS, and she is an NZEI delegate and as such supposedly a leader of her professional colleagues.
INterestingly Lester linked above says “What has surprised me most about this standards thing is not the policy, but the low level of public literacy on what the policy actually proposes – and that “public” includes the teaching profession. How many times have I heard principals, teachers and academics utter and mutter that under National we’re in for national testing! This is despite the party publicly and repeatedly declaring that national testing is not on its radar…”
If you read his suggestions of what NS should be and then compare it to the MinEd guidelines, my impression is that they are very very close. You’d not get that impression from NZEI.
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sprout – You say they govt has not consulted experts,
The Govt advisory group includes (apparently people who you think are not qualified)
Professor Tom Nicholson
Professor Nicholson is co-director of the Centre of Excellence for Research on Children’s Literacy (CERCL) and a Professor of Literacy Education at Massey University. He has authored over 160 publications (including 16 books) and has a particular research interest in improving the literacy progress of pupils with reading difficulties. He has teaching and research interests in reading and language development, phonological awareness, the effects of extra literacy tutoring, reading attitudes, motivation to read, and assessing children’s language and literacy.
Professor John Hattie
Professor Hattie is a Professor of Education at Auckland University and Director of Visible Learning Laboratories. His area of interest is in measurement models and their applications to educational problems. Professor Hattie is chief moderator of the Performance Based Research Fund, President-elect of the International Test Commission and associate editor of the British Journal of Educational Psychology.
Dr Tony Trinick
Dr Trinick has held teaching positions in the primary, intermediate, secondary and tertiary sectors. He is currently the Associate Dean Māori in the Faculty of Education at the University of Auckland. He was involved in the development of the Māori-medium curriculum Te Marautanga o Aotearoa, especially in the Numeracy (Pāngarau) learning area, and has been involved in the development of the Māori-medium National Standards.
Dr Avis Glaze
Dr Glaze is a highly-respected Canadian educator and played a pivotal role in introducing standards to raise achievement in reading, writing and maths in Ontario schools. She was Ontario’s first Chief Student Achievement Officer and founding CEO of the Literacy and Numeracy Secretariat. Dr Glaze has extensive experience in international education and has assisted educational reform in South Africa, as well as working with educators in Australia, England, Finland, Singapore, Ireland, Scotland, Germany, the Caribbean and many parts of the United States.
And you think they are unqualified (despite the fact that even you yourself listed one as an expert)
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si – you didn’t generate enough of a thought to elicit a response beyond this.
insider – you think Miss Hulm was worked up over nothing?
She was wrong to be concerned that it seemed most of her class would fall below the required standard? Her point was that where the standard is set means most of her children will fail to meet that standard. She was also concerned that her parents will interpret that failure to mean that their children had failed.
You don’t see it her way?
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If such a position is established for a child, will that position be communicated to the parent?
Your answer will doubtless reduce the degree of stupidity in my future questions about national standards.
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robert – you put hours and days into argueing against National Standards.
Yet it seems you haven’t even bothered to spend five minutes actually finding out about them as you have no idea of even basic information, like how they are reported.
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I quite enjoy reading this blog.. but the personal bickering & insults are a bit much !! Kia-ora
[frog: Good point, zedd. Let's try to debate the issues, not launch personal attacks on other commenters.]
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Tom Nicholson has major concerns:
http://www.massey.ac.nz/massey/about-massey/news/article.cfm?mnarticle=education-professor-weighs-up-national-standards-24-02-2010
John Hattie has withdrawn from the advisory group because the Minister won’t listen, you saw my earlier link (I hope).
Tony Trinick supports the trial process that Maori Medium are following and that Anne Tolley has refused for English Medium schools.
Dr Avis Glaze promoted her partnership with the profession process that is essential to progressing educational change and Anne Tolley has refused to follow. “As an international educator, Avis listens to all of the stakeholders in education – particularly those who work directly with students.” (hardly describes our Minister).
http://www.avisglaze.ca/international/index.html
Sorry Photonz1, your list of educationalists are just another pile of expert roadkill as Tolley powers through with her National Standards juggernaut.
What hugely frustrates the profession and experts is that Anne Tolley refuses to engage and even when the likes of Lester Flocken has taken the time to write to her in person, she refuses to reply. She has publicly admonished Lester for spreading misinformation and when he asked her to explain what specifically he has misrepresented she has refused to answer. Anne Tolley is the one who is spreading misinformation and much that she says is bordering on straight out lies!
How you can continue to blindly defend this women defies all logical sense, I challenge you to find one respected expert or educational organization that openly supports these National Standards.
STA, PPTA, NZAIMS, NZPF, NZEI are all expressing concerns with the Minister’s leadership and lack of sound judgement and they are the professional organizations representing parents, teachers and principals. What is left?
Anne Tolley is teetering on top of a house of cards and you are up there with her, Photonz1!
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nice try sprout, but you stuffed up.
Your link to Tom Nicholsons “major concerns” contains a list of positive aspects of National Standards.
And a link to his article, titled
“Literacy specialist backs national standards”
““At the moment schools use many tests, all quite different from each other and with no clear indication that a result on one is similar to a result on another.
“The standards give very clear examples of the level of text that a pupil reading at that standard should be able to read accurately and comprehend.”
“He says there will be some variance among schools in making assessments of the standards, but the exemplars are very clear and, if faithfully done, should give comparable results across schools. ”
“Teachers already have the expertise to use the standards. The materials and expectations are very familiar – they are part of the curriculum. Teachers do this assessment all the time.”
He says parents will get more clarity from school reports. “The new reports will say straight up, whether their child meets the standard, and will avoid ambiguities and vague comments.
“A child’s reading results are currently expressed in jargon, like stanines, percentiles, curriculum levels, or scores like 2B, 3P, etc. Math levels can be even harder to fathom. National standards will avoid this. If the reports are clear, then parents will be able to understand the situation and do something about it.”
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” parents will get more clarity from school reports. “The new reports will say straight up, whether their child meets the standard, and will avoid ambiguities and vague comments.”
Ah! There it is, despite photonz1 refusal to answer my question, he’s provided the answer in a comment to sprout.Parents will be told if their child ‘meets the standard’. I suppose the parent will then decide whether their child has failed or succeeded to meet that standard.
Like getting blood out of a stone, asking a simple question of photonz1, so determined is he to skirt issues that cast his sycophantic defence of Tolley, National, Key and national standards, in a true light.
Sprout’s intelligent presentations would be enough to show a casual reader that there’s something rotten going on in National’s camp (and Tolley’s head), were it not for the dogged interference from photonz1.
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“a politician with dubious qualifications and no ability to listen constructively to the profession.”
photonz1 said:
“You say they govt has not consulted experts”
Willful misrepresentation but funny to watch.
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Under National Standards, reports will say straight up whether or not each child meets the standard and will avoid ambiguities and vague comments. But in order to avoid damaging a child’s engagement and motivation to learn, reports will not imply fault or failure. Quack.
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“nice try sprout, but you stuffed up.”
actually all of sprout’s links have a common theme that you have so far ignored, photonz: the importance of teachers in implementing the standards and the importance in having their support to make the policy a success.
Anne Tolley is behaving like a dictator and this is the main reason her policy will fail. It is a hallmark of this government that for them democracy comes but once every three years and in between times we’re supposed to sit back and let them run the show. and don’t talk back.
national standards may have the potential to be of benefit but without recognising and engaging with the concerns of the professionals and experts involved, Anne Tolley will, to put it bluntly, FAIL.
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The standards are hard. This causes a degree of trouble at the coalface, as the kids became perceptibly discouraged in their work. “They won’t ever amount to anything so why give a stuff”. Which makes the work of the teachers significantly more difficult. I suspect that the people devising them had their reasons for doing this, but I suspect too, that the reasons for NOT doing it were poorly (if at all) considered.
The second thing is that it is clear that Tolley is doing the “Nya-Nya-Nya I can’t hear you” routine quite comprehensively.
While “National Standards” are good in theory, the actual bringing in of a specific set of standards requires a lot more than an edict from an ideologue to be done right. This is something that has NOT been done right, and it shows.
BJ
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The trouble with your arguments Photonz1 is that you refuse to listen to anything that is negative about the National Standards as though they are perfectly formed and ready to do the job. The majority of teachers and experts have nothing against standards but want the serious flaws in these ones fixed before they do serious damage. Why the crazy reluctance to trail and test before full implementation, as is normal practice?
I wouldn’t drive an untested car without a warrant of fitness with children on board and I wouldn’t force an untested and flawed assessment system on children and teachers either!
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@bjchip 10:02 AM
Thanks BJ – there’s been a lot of attempts to blur the issues by debating minutiae and personal attacks on other commenters on this thread – good to see you zeroing in on the key issues.
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Minutae Toad?
It was apparent very early on that the implemetation of the national standards was seriously faulted and that Tolley’s dictatorial manner was hindering constructive engagement. Re-stating that over and over is no fun but squabbling with photonz1 over the crumbs of the issue is.
As for the personal attacks – gentle ribbing never hurt anyone did it?
Most people can take it (though photonz1 gets a bit snotty on it
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BJ,
Trouble is at the “chalk face”. The real problem we have found surfaces at the real “coalface”, the work environment.
On two seperate occasions we had Tech Institute graduates come into the work place with “theoretical” AutoCad and SolidWorks computer modeling knowledge.
While their ability to handle the software was without question, their ability to handle critism, rejection of work completed, ability to handle failure and learn from it, was absent.
They were completely unable to operate in a confrontational (and lets admit our society is pretty confrontational) work environment.
Somewhere along the line we have to educate kids that in real life (at least in the work environment) they will be judged by outsiders against a required standard.
When, where, How and by Whom we eductate our kids on the harsh realities of life is up for debate, but heck we need to teach our kids that they will be judged and found wanting at work, home, relationships, and society.
We need to teach them to cope with failures. Currently from what I have seen from school leavers we are not doing very well.
Correlation between youth suicide and lack of ability to handle failure?
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I am sitting beside a Maori colleague who is a respected educationalist, he has been a Principal, advisor a member of ERO and he recently completed a Masters degree. He told me the story of his background; starting life in poverty and failing school certificate. He explained to me if his school life was dominated by this fixation with National Standards and numeracy and literacy he wouldn’t have had the success he has had. He was recognized for his wider skills and not labeled as below some arbitrary standards that gave no indication of his potential.
It will be very interesting to see how National Standards will make a difference to struggling children, I hear John Key and Anne Tolley promoting a wonderful initiative to allow an “expert” to spend 1/2 an hour a year in each struggling school. I do wonder where these experts will come from because Anne Tolley has had to sack all those useless ones who failed to provide effective PD to assist the implementation (it was obviously their fault, not her flawed standards)…..You may have a job Photonz1 as there are few left who support them with such energy, what are your qualifications again? If you don’t have an education background you will be a shoo in!
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“We need to teach them to cope with failures.”
oh, well on that score then Tolley is also failing to lead by example. the best way to cope with failure is to take an objective look at one’s performance, evaluate the cause(s) of the failure, seek and consider criticism and advice from informed sources and change your behaviour accordingly…
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Gerrit
I don’t think that competitive meme needs to be brought in before they’ve reached puberty, even in sports. There are developmental aspects to this that have to be considered. These standards are reasonable in the sense that they set goals that guarantee a lot of striving to reach. The problem with that is that they challenge kids before the kids really know who they are and they set up a risk of breaking otherwise good kids.
The level of maturity required to accept real criticism and learn from it isn’t something normally found in a teenager, and is rare among the adults I know. I think you may be a bit optimistic in your expectations around the new-hires.
“Somewhere along the line we have to educate kids that in real life (at least in the work environment) they will be judged by outsiders against a required standard.”
I reckon this is true. My experiences with standards was in New York State, which had an exam (the “State Regents”) taken at the end of “college” education. It was optional and rigorous. It was one set of exams. Taken once. A fair few of my generation simply skipped it, went on with their “normal” diplomas and did well enough. University wasn’t as nearly universal then.
The kids going to become chippies and plumbers didn’t need it much, there was some prestige associated with doing well, and some scholarship money. It gave people objective standards to work with when evaluating a new hire.
It sure as hell did not show up in 7th grade!
Standards are a good thing to have. Applying them poorly is a worse thing to do. A perfect object-lesson in applying them poorly is being provided by National.
respectfully
BJ
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could be a great slogan for the Nats next election:
“teaching our kids to fail properly”
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Nommopilot,
Nobody is asking for our kids and grandchildren to fail. What we need to prepare them for is how to COPE with failure.
A huge difference.
Nationals next election slogan
“Educating Kids For Life”
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“What we need to prepare them for is how to COPE with failure.”
by ‘coping with failure’, perhaps you mean accept criticism? objectively self-evaluate performance? set improvement goals? implement personal development strategies?
all good skills, to be sure, but not necessarily the highest priority for educating primary students. I would prefer beginning with identifying interests and learning styles and starting with these. there’s plenty of time to evaluate our young and we shouldn’t be in a hurry to label them as failures so they can learn to cope.
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oh yeah, what bj said…
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nommopilot
Where would you put it in the curriculum?
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“Where would you put it in the curriculum?”
what?
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The new curriculum has just about everthing students could ever need in it.
How exciting, enlightened, progressive and intelligent it would be to further the progress of that, rather than this idiotic shamozzle of an idea ‘national standards’ – pfffffffft!
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Gerrit and Photo. Prescription.
Try some reading of Freire. http://www.newfoundations.com/GALLERY/Freire.html
You may get an idea of how achievement for some is not just a matter of working harder.
“Knowledge is not a set commodity that is passed from the teachers to the students. Students must construct knowledge from knowledge they already possess. Teachers must learn how the students understand the world so that the teacher understands how the student can learn.”
and some of the new curriculum.
http://nzcurriculum.tki.org.nz/
Even if? NACT standards were a good idea, bringing them in during a change to a new curriculum is daft.
Change managers know you need buy in and gradualism to make lasting and effective changes.
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“Knowledge is not a set commodity that is passed from the teachers to the students. Students must construct knowledge from knowledge they already possess. Teachers must learn how the students understand the world so that the teacher understands how the student can learn.”
of course the rational response to this is:
shutup shutup shutupshutup
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I have just invented new standards that will be applied to all future Education Ministers, they are not trialled or tested and have no research base but I hope they will be accepted.
Qualifications:
An education qualification preferably a Masters degree=high pass
Past experience in working in Education=pass
No experience in education and/or holding some unrelated qualification such as Real Estate=Fail
Listening Skills
An active listener who values and acts on advice from experts and practitioners=high pass
A listener who appears to respect those providing advice and acts on some of that advice=Pass
A non listener who refuses to respond to genuine advice or respect those with superior knowledge=Fail
Honesty
Is open and honest about all information and advice received and accurately reflects levels of concern or support=High pass
Is able to make accurate statements that do not mislead=Pass
Does not reveal the full extent of feedback, only promotes information that supports one argument, deliberately distorts evidence and percentages for personal gain=Fail
Diplomacy
Deals with others with a high level of respect and builds on positives rather than negatives=High pass
Speaks respectfully to others=Pass
Refuses answer to reasonable questions, talks down to others and dwells on negatives=Fail
Reading comprehension
Can independently read and understand large amounts of academic research to justify actions=High pass
Can read and understand information provided by advisors=Pass
Struggles to understand written advice and just constantly refers to the “sound bites” they do understand (probably rote learning)=Fail
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Sprout. if the person had all those skills they would be successful and fulfilled in their real job/s and would not feel the need to go into politics.
Main qualifications for a politician.
Belief that you know better than someone who has studied and researched a subject.
Overwhelming desire to inflict your views on others. Comes from an unpopular childhood. We should be sympathetic.
Closed mind.
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robertguyton, why do I need to expand. My argument is succint, you appear to suffer from misguided verbal diarrhea.
If her students are below the standards, surely we should examine the failings in her teaching.
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si – robertguyton has is prepared to argue against national standards for weeks but has shown he doesn’t even know basic information about how they work.
It’s a waste of time argueing with people with totally closed minds – especially when they are completely ignorant about the subject.
It’s like blinkners on the blind.
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si-What???????!!!!
I taught in a high decile school for 9 years and often I could teach classes where the majority of children would be able to achieve the Standards and yet in the low decile schools I have taught in I could teach classes where few would achieve the Standards. I could be a useless teacher but levels of achievement in a class are hardly an indicator of teaching ability, progress over time (across a class, not individuals) would be.
To blame a teacher for an individual child’s lack of progress is problematic because there are so many possible variables that can affect progress; family circumstances, physical and emotional health, peer relationships and social pressures……
Teaching and learning is complex and simplistic solutions and “one size fits all” systems are not realistic.
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Look at the complete rubbish people write on this blog
sprout says “He explained to me if his school life was dominated by this fixation with National Standards and numeracy and literacy he wouldn’t have had the success he has had.”
What a load of complete rubbish. sprout’s friend has no idea of whether they would have got more help or not – they may have progressed far further than they have without extra help.
To say they would have failed to have the same success because the standards used to assess them were national standards instead of (or as well as) curent standards (many of which are very similar), is transparently absurd – it’s desperate and laughable.
In fact if someone is as successful as sprout says they are, it is very unlikely that they are that stupid – it’s more likely that sprout has made the story up and sprouts “friend” is an immaginary one.
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“It’s a waste of time argueing with people with totally closed minds – especially when they are completely ignorant about the subject.”
Photonz1-So true! I’m still waiting for answer to my last question, or are you using the Tolley Tactic?
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Sprout, if it was an individual child I’d say there are other issues, but 1 child out of 21 passing does not support your argument, in fact I’d say it weakens it.
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sprout says “class are hardly an indicator of teaching ability”
rubbish. There’s been really high acheiving classes whose achievement plummets the following year because of their teacher. Whne other factors are the same, standards can be a good indication of a teacher needing more training.
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srpout asks ” I’m still waiting for answer to my last question, or are you using the Tolley Tactic?”
After many questions by people who obviously haven’t bothered to spend five minutes to learn even basic things about National Standards, I’ve largely ignored them.
Did you ask something intelligent?
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Oh dear, Photonz1, I feel I have supplied links to Ministry information, notable educationalist’s detailed reviews and relevant newspaper articles. I have provided the views of practitioners and described specific flaws in the standards. You listed a number of “experts” that had initially advised the Minister and I provided evidence of concern from each. You gloss over my points and question small aspects while ignoring the huge mass of information i have provided. Having read most that has been published about the standards and having worked with the Ministry on a number of curriculum related projects and tried to apply the standards in a classroom setting, I would hope my contributions have had some degree of intelligent thought and practical experience behind them.
After providing extensive evidence that the majority of respected educationalists have concerns with the Standards and explained how the professional organizations representing parents, teachers and principals have all expressed dissatisfaction I said:
“I challenge you to find one respected expert or educational organization that openly supports THESE National Standards”
Sorry, it’s probably more a challenge than a question but I’m really interested in your response.
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“There’s been really high acheiving classes whose achievement plummets the following year because of their teacher. Whne other factors are the same, standards can be a good indication of a teacher needing more training.”
Depends totally on the quality of the assessments, National Standards are based on OTJs which are highly subjective, it’s perfectly possible an inexperienced teacher in an earlier class could assess the children in a more favourable manner, then the following, experienced teacher could make a more accurate assessment that would make the children appear as though they had regressed.
This is less likely to occur when using norm referenced assessments such as PATs.
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sprout asks “I challenge you to find one respected expert or educational organization that openly supports THESE National Standards””
More stupid questions.
YOU have already answered YOUR question, or do you not read the links YOU provide ???
I quote from YOUR links to experts
” In favour, it can be argued that the standards will use a common language across the country that parents can understand, and that there will be no fudging or hedging about whether a child is succeeding or failing, so that schools will report achievement rather than effort,” he says. “Schools will no longer use technical terms like stanines, percentiles, levels”
And a whole article
“Literacy specialist backs national standards”
“Teachers already have the expertise to use the standards. The materials and expectations are very familiar – they are part of the curriculum. Teachers do this assessment all the time.”
He says parents will get more clarity from school reports. “The new reports will say straight up, whether their child meets the standard, and will avoid ambiguities and vague comments.”
http://www.massey.ac.nz/massey/about-massey/news/article.cfm?mnarticle=literacy-specialist-backs-national-standards-03-02-2010
What sort of a “challange” is it when you already provided your own answers.
Or is it another case of parroting the green line without knowing much – not even what your own links say.
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I’m sorry Photonz1, Tom Nicholson does not fully support the standards if you read all his comments and his concerns are the ones expressed by most other academics and professionals. i wish you could read all the information you use and not cherry pick for your own advantage, it isn’t honest and continually weakens your case. Did you have a professional organization that supports the standards?
By the way I strongly object to being called a liar when you have no basis to support this. The Man I referred to is Hahona Paraki and he suggested i use his story.
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sprout complains of cherry picking – that’s a laugh. Even in largely positive articles you can find a small negative to link to.
Don’t you get sick of a continual negative attitude?
All you have postulating on theory of problems that MAY happen with National Standards – exactly the same problems that MAY happen if current standards are treated in the same way.
We’ve had very positive benefits from National Standards already. And our kids haven’t even had a full assessment yet.
And that’s actual benefit that has already happened. Not negative postulation of some theoretical doomsday scenario.
As Tom Nicholson says, Natioanl Standards are little different to what many shcools do already.
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Photonz… there is a parroting of the National Party line coming from you that is just as nonsensical as anything you claim we are doing. The facts on the ground do not support the approach taken by Tolley et.al. which is something I know from first hand observation… and which most of the education community has observed as well. She isn’t listening.
The criticism of the specific approach taken to applying standards is not on the part of the Greens or of the Educators, a criticism of the idea of having standards. Something you seem to have missed, though it has been, several times, made quite clear.
Since National has chosen to rule by decree in this instance (after all Teachers are “the enemy”, and their unions are manifestations of the devil and to be vilified and ignored at all times) they have managed to make a lot of mistakes. Partly because they are intent on ignoring legitimate inputs that ONLY the teachers can provide.
You seem to be working hard to blame every failure of every student on the teachers. Probably not your actual position, it is simply what comes across from your arguments. To be sure it also turns up as a meme in most pronouncements from National.
The negative aspects of doing this to a 3rd-4th-5th-6th graders are ignored. There are several things missing here but the largest hole is the missing perspective.
Kids are not units to be trained and enslaved to serve their economic purpose. Teachers actually teaching them to think for themselves is a good thing. Standards themselves are ALSO a good thing. However, the manner in which they are being rammed into the system… that is just the usual National Party perversion of an otherwise reasonable idea.
respectfully
BJ
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It seems to me that if the assessment of our children is to be significantly based on teacher assessment (someh\thing which isnecessary as long as there is some degree of peer assessment…)then ranking school by school is is flawed even assuming school by school is in and off itself meritorious – AND I do not think it is.
Kerry’s comment about Freire seems to have been by-passed which is sad. His ideas about knowledge accumulation, the art of teachung thinking need development here, thperhaps more so in adult education or education systems for the so-called under-acheivers/failures than primary schools…..
And by the way, Merv also stopped funding to adult education providers from the Workers Education Assoc to Country Women’s Institute. Strange views about education he had – no such thing as a second chance.
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@ Sprout
I mentioned PAT tests earlier and I see you have mentioned them. (Assuming you know something about them) can you advise what is the difference in the information gained from the PAT tests from that which will be gained from NS in terms of assessing a student’s current abilities?
Feel free anyone else to add your expertise
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Insider-P.A.T. assessments are pen and paper, norm referenced, point in time assessments. They are intended to be done in late February after children have settled into their new classes. They cover listening, reading comprehension, reading vocabulary, maths and study skills. They provide an indication to teachers where children fit across the country for their age and class level. They can be a useful guide for initial ability groupings before the teacher can build up a stronger picture through their own observations and formative assessments. They do tend to be culturally exclusive and favour those with strong reading skills. They can be a good indicator of children who are very able but their accuracy in identifying children’s needs as you move down the achievement levels becomes limited. Many children find the assessments stressful and some find difficulties concentrating for the whole of the time available and their scores are not reliable.
PAT assessments are a useful when combined with other assessments and are often used in schools to track progress over time as they tend to be more consistent than OTJs. Hope this is helpful.
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Thanks sprout. Not sure I fully comprehend the jargon…
Aren’t PAT results a sort of ‘national’ standard or potential platform for one? They are national, they are norm referenced, they’ve been around for many many many years so we know how and what they do? You said “They provide an indication to teachers where children fit across the country for their age and class level.” Or they more a notional standard? (boom boom)
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Bj- it’s commendable that you sign off your response to photonz1 with the word ‘respectfully’, when he himself displays none of that. He’s merely a drone, running interference here. Its fun sometimes, to cut him off at the knees when he reveals himself too much but his ‘I’m not going to bother answering your stupid questions’ line is so ‘Anne Tolley’ that you have to ask what his purpose is (If you didn’t know it already).
Pursuing an idea to it’s logical conclusion with photonz1 will always be a vain pursuit, just as hoping to talk intelligently with Tolley will result only in frustration and despair.
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Insider-They could be used as that except for the concerns about them that I mentioned. There is a danger of putting too much emphasis on one test and teachers will teach to that test and therefore narrow the curriculum. Many of the ideas behind National Standards are fine as they do take into account the wider perspectives and other assessment tools that teachers have and there has been an attempt to match them with the curriculum. The difficulties with the Standards are that they don’t match up with anything else due to the rushed nature of their construction and the systems of moderation are not in place and have not been tested for suitability.
We don’t want to go down the track of a national testing regime that has failed in the UK and the States and we do not want to have to use the current standards until all the flaws and potential misuse has been dealt with. Teachers are too busy to spend hours trying to make something work that doesn’t. The Minister is trying to set up another advisory group but until she allows us to address the flaws and not just the implementation, we don’t want a bar of it.
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