by frog
Published in THE ISSUES by frog on Thu, September 2nd, 2010
Tags: general debate
General debate, September 2, 2010
Published: September 2, 2010
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Please use 
on the trolls and those who are unable to keep on topic
marijuana is a gateway-drug..
it can help you get out the heroin/’p'/tobacco-exits…
(and while not for everyone…it should be offered as a (legal)-tool…)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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drugs are bad phil
mess with yr mind…
make you paranoid…
specially pot… makes you a tool…and getting drugged is the end.
we know this…
But why does the govt respond with evidence adverse policy?
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Ken Mehlman, the campaign manager for Bush/Cheney in 2004 and former RNC Chairman has come out of the closet. In the words of The Onion:
Classiiiic.
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Has any one heard about proposals to take away limits on lake levels for power generation?
I.E. Manapouri.
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Kerry, not yet. Do you have a link for that?
The Guardians of Manapouri still exist:
http://www.doc.govt.nz/about-doc/news/media-releases/2008/appointment-of-guardians-of-lakes/
so I would hope that they would be interested.
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(has anyone heard anything about this…?..)
http://whoar.co.nz/2010/did-the-anti-christ-doom-squad-cause-that-big-power-blackout-in-auckland-in-the-ninetiesremarkably-the-whole-attack-was-run-from-a-laptop-in-a-drug-cafe-in-the-back-streets-of-amsterdam%E2%80%9D/
(this has been posted by a commenter at kiwiblog…)
“…From page 487 GCHQ-The Uncensored story of Britain’s most secret Intelligence Agency – Richard J Aldrich Harper Press 2010
“..a team from GCHQ were assisting with the investigation into blackouts of the national power grid that had struck Auckland in New Zealand.
They proved to be the result of electronic attacks on the country’s electricity distribution network, launched over the internet……
..The culprits were a group of hackers called the ” Anti Christ Doom Squad…………
…Once they gained access to the computers controlling New Zealand’s power supply, they focused on the distribution systems …
… picking a point where all five main power lines converged before coming into Auckland.
By changing the temperature with in the sensitive cables they quickly put them out of action.
Remarkably the whole attack was run from a laptop in a drug cafe in the back streets of Amsterdam.”
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Anyone who knows anything about how electricity transmission works knows exactly what happened in Auckland; the system was operated incompetently. The actual ratings of the various underground transmission cables was not known, so they used assumed ratings, which were substantially different to the actual cable safe ampacity.
Not a computer in sight. (or in site)
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Interestingly Patrick Strange who once headed Mercury now runs Transpower, so maybe Phil is right about the conspiracy…? Has PS been checked for unsual tattoos?
PS the Auckland failure report is somewhere on the web.
PPS I always find it interesting that the typical response to these management failures is “chuck more money at them” not “chuck different management at them”, eg a $20 Otahu shackle fails because of poor inspection routines and we get a $100m bill
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i seem to remember ‘overloading’ as being given as a cause..?..at the time..?
if so…that fits with the spooks’-scenario…eh..?
so..buckley…we have this quote…
(almost as a background-filler…at the very least as ‘matter of fact’..
..so…you are equivocating this spook-writer with the loons at ..say..kiwiblog..?
..and you much prefer the/any official-story…?
hey..!..here’s a guess…!
i’ll bet you still think the japanese attack on pearl harbour came as a total surprise to roosevelt..?..eh..?
as just one of a raft of examples….)
..this quote from a spook…on the actions of spooks…
so i guess it comes down to credibility/gravitas..?..
(then again…it could be those bloody alien-lizards again…
http://whoar.co.nz/2010/inside-the-great-reptilian-conspiracy-from-queen-elizabeth-to-barack-obama-they-live/
eh..?
pick yr scenario..!
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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How about a knighthood for Alan Hubbard?
FFS, Roger Douglas got one for deregulating the financial sector to allow the sort of shenanigans South Canterbury Finance got up to.
Michael Fay got one for providing the Government advice to sell the railways to him, and then asset-stripping them.
Doug Myers eventually got one for being New Zealand’s biggest drug dealer.
Poor old Alan must be feeling a bit left out, especially given he’s now in statutory management and poor health and through the receivership he has lost his entire investment in SCF.
So come on John Key, recommend Alan for a knighthood so he feels a bit more appreciated in his twilight years. He currently has 4,462 good people of South Canterbury (and a few others) backing him.
One of the good guys!
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what’s yr poison..?..eh..?..
..no..!..really..!
http://whoar.co.nz/2010/abc-news-has-done-a-powerful-piece-on-the-connections-between-alcoholand-a-raft-of-cancersmaybe-that-parliamentary-select-committee-on-alcohol-laws-should-have-a-gander-at-iteh/
…What is the link between alcohol and throat cancer?
Eighty-five percent of all head and neck cancers are related to smoking … but alcohol has also been linked to throat cancer.
According to the American Cancer Society … drinkers are six times more likely to get these cancers.
Some reports have found that people who smoke and drink are as much as 100 times more likely to get mouth and throat cancer than people with neither habit.
According to the Centers for Disease Control, consuming 50 grams of alcohol a day, the equivalent of four drinks …
… doubles or triples the risk for getting mouth, voice box and throat cancer….”
(hic…!…eh..?..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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toad says “Poor old Alan must be feeling a bit left out”
Are you the only person in NZ not to know that Mr Hubbard is xtraordinarily modest?
Don’t let a total lack of factual knowledge about someone get in your way of criticising them.
Sounds a bit like tall poppy syndrome.
How many people would you get on a facebook support page?
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are you seriously still supporting the hubbard-cult there..?…photonz..?
that folksy old guy..who just cost us $1.75 billion…?
whoar…!
and ‘modest’..?…how about hubris…?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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THE GREAT CONSPIRICIES!!!
Phil; do you regularly visit the David Icke site? I think he was the one who started all the lizzard people (royal family) conspiricy theories.
I think it’s absolute garbage he hasn’t got one ounce of science to back his claims.
Don’t get me wrong I am not against conspiracy theories but they have to sound plausable.
Toads theory is plausable; how is it that all the crooks are getting knighthoods?
And why is it that in most of the elections around the world only two parties emerge neck to neck about 46-49%,49-46% leaving a small margin for the rest? quite consistantly!
As for the news media, well it’s obvious that that is monopolised by Packer and Murdock it’s mostly depressing, shallow and warped. In local papers you notice the emphesis is on law enforcement, the fire brigade and your local councillor giving a greasy grin as he shakes the hand of a pensioner, all goodie goodie properganda
Especially on the middle east, since 1948 our media bias has mostly been in favor of Israel especially before the advent of the internet!
Finally go and read The Protocols of the Wise Elders of Zion ( http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/przion3.htm#Protocol%20no%204 ) and alot of things seem to fit and they fit because we are letting it fit.
By the way I am not religious and I am not anti semetic but Zionism to Jews is like Nazi’s to the German people.
“We are Gods chosen few”
“We are the master race”
“We are not amused!”
“The meek [?] will inherit the Earth”
“America is great”
“You lot are infidels who will burn in Hell!!!”
The people promoting the above slogans are mostly hatching conspiracies (plural). Such people I believe have no place in our world if we desire PEACE!!!!!
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My understanding is that the Auckland CBD power failures were caused in part by overheating transmission lines in tunnels that were backfilled with the wrong material which didn’t conduct the heat away as well as required.
Trevor.
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As I understand it, what caused the Auckland CBD power failures was old cables that were past their use-by date. Not only that, but they had been installed in the 1950s – the electrical requirements from the 1980s onwards was a lot higher, especially considering that the fancy new buildings had air conditioning which is a massive draw on power.
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phil – the govt has put in 1.75 billion, and after it gets back over 1 billion in SCF assetts, it estimates it’s losses will be down to 0.6 billion.
That’s not much more than it has already taken in two years in premiums from institutions to be in the guarantee scheme (taken 0.5 billion at 0.25 billion per year as of June – by December it will have taken over 0.6 billion)
So it’s losses are not quite as bad as is made out. In fact, as an insurance scheme, even after the SCF payout, it’s quite possible the govt may still make a profit and be in the black in the very near future.
As for Hubbard, he quite uniqe. I’m trying to think of someone else in NZ who has helped so many businesses start up. Can you think of anyone?
Or someone who has paid out millions of his own money to make sure investors got their money back. Who else has done that?
He’s made some mistakes, but then again the decision to send in the SFO when there doesn’t appear to be any fraud led to millions being pulled out of South Canterbury Finance and is what tipped it over the edge.
And the other point is Hubbard hasn’t been running SCF for quite a while.
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A DANGEROUS AND UGLY CULT!!!
Thanks Philo; I have just read “Inside thge Great Reptilian Conspiracy” and have come to this conclusion.
It is pure bullshit!!!!
It is very sad that Icke who belonged to the Green Party could have spent his admirable talent dealing with the real issues that are plaguing our plannet like GLOBAL WARMING!!!!
Now it has turned into a very ugly and dangerous cult!!!
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john-ston
The cables were being operated within their ratings, but the ratings didn’t take account of the incorrect installation. The higher load would have been handled by upgrades to the system which would have ensured that the cable ratings were not exceeded.
You are probably right about the age of the cables but that wasn’t the primary problem. The failure occurred during abnormally hot weather, amplifying the lack of cooling.
Trevor.
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hey drakula..!
have you got that common rightwing deficiency…?
..the sense of humour byepass…?
(how could i have been more ‘obvious’ for you…?..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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“..Thanks Philo; I have just read “Inside thge Great Reptilian Conspiracy” and have come to this conclusion.
It is pure bullshit!!!!..”
um..!..shouldn’t the title have led you instantly to that very conclusion..?
(just asking..!..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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um..!..wd it be out of order to ask for a bit of transperancy around this $1.75 billion ‘soaking’ we have just taken…?
namely…did any of those who granted this mountain of money….
did any of them have any conflict of interests running here..?
as in..were any in national taking advantage of that hubbard-potion of high interest rates..
..and a gold-plated gummint-guarantee…?
i mean..why wouldn’t they..?..eh…?
in effect…i am asking if any of them lobbied for/voted for..
..a bailout for themselves..?…
..eh..?
(hidden away in ‘trusts’/w.h.y…?..)
(i’m just asking..!..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Phil – I’m not in a position to comment on the other allegations, but I know lots about electricity systems, so when I someone starts pouring the bull I can spot it at several paces.
That the Auckland system failed through overload is absolutely true. But, the load was within what the system was designed to carry, so it wasn’t in theory overloaded. However, due to inadequate construction, various components of the system were not able to carry there rated load. Due to inadequate maintenance and inspection, there was no knowledge that these components were not capable of carrying their rated load.
Thus the operators, in their ignorance, operated the system within what they believed was its safe limits. Unbeknownst to them, they were exceeding the system’s capabilities. Cue the cascade failure.
For some super hacker to game the system to fail, assuming that is even possible remotely, he would had to have known of these inadequacies that no-one knew about in order to exploit that vulnerability.
This is a similar root cause to the US East Coast blackout. Due to operator ignorance, the system was operated outside of its capability, and it failed.
In that case the operators were ignorant because the single most important computer system that keeps them on top of system loadings (the state estimator) was offline due to human error, and the operators didn’t know they were working with erroneous data.
The reasons vary, but most decent failures (ie cascading failures) are down to operator error, due to them not knowing something vitally important about the system capability, and thus exceeding the system’s real capability.
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toad – as I said, Hubbard has made mistakes but to try to make it look like he feels he’s missed out on a knighthood shows you either know nothing about him, or are deliberately trying to misrepresent him.
Some of Hickeys comments are fair – some are not.
He complains of a $1.7b payout but not a mention that the government now has over $1b in assets to sell.
He doen’t complain that the govt has collected $500 million in premiums for the scheme so far (at $250m per year) so by the time SFC issorted out they will likely be making a profit on the scheme – not a massive loss as he makes out.
No mention that the decision to put Hubbard into statuatory management (made by someone whose brother was put into recievership by SCF) and the heavy handed SFO investigation, (which appear to have found nothing serious) let to SCF haemorrhaging money back to investors which is what precipitated receivership.
And no mention of bad debts from a recesions where people have lost their jobs and have been unable to repay their mortgages to SCF.
And as for the businesses who had borrowed from SCF and went bust in the recesion, from builders, concrete companies, hotels, bars, property, vineyards, tourism and mainly farms – the PRIMARY REASON that SCF went bust – not a mention.
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That’s interesting, photonz1. Tell us more.
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buckley..i am just the messanger on this…and no ‘expert’..
but nothing that you have said there rules out for me..the other scenario…
“..For some super hacker to game the system to fail, assuming that is even possible remotely,..”
um..!…maybe not now…but certainly then…i would bet the security-system on that computor system way back then was almost non-existant..
and given that hackers have broken into the pentagon..among other much more ‘secure’systems..
your breezy dismissal of this being a possibility here..(‘cos of what..?..exactly..?..)..
does nothing to aid yr attempted dismissal…
eh..?
and as i said…i am just reporting what the spook said..(in a matter of fact manner) in that book about spooks…
why is that whole scenario so implausible for you…?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Whats implausible is that someone knew what to do to bring down the system. The inadequacies that would have to be exploited were (at that time) unknown.
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sez who…?
and..
are you saying this is impossible..?
“..…Once they gained access to the computers controlling New Zealand’s power supply, they focused on the distribution systems …
… picking a point where all five main power lines converged before coming into Auckland.
By changing the temperature with in the sensitive cables they quickly put them out of action..”
mmm…??
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Exactly – before the event, no one knew the cables were “sensitive cables”, they were cables that should have been able to take the load they were put under without problem. That’s my issue. The rest is just static.
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“..By changing the temperature with in the sensitive cables they quickly put them out of action..”
so that…is impossible..?
so..who to believe….?
the spook who wrote the book about the spooks…?
or local ‘expert’/naysayer…buckley..?
takes yr pick…!
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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…decision to put Hubbard into statuatory management (made by someone whose brother was put into recievership by SCF)…
toad says “That’s interesting, photonz1. Tell us more”
Astonishing they try to claim trere is not conflict in this.
See
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/3851886/Hubbard-case-conflict-of-interest-raised
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@phil
When conspiracy theories have basic factual errors you have to accept the whole thing collapses like a pack of cards.
Once they gained access to the computers controlling New Zealand’s power supply, they focused on the distribution systems …
“picking a point where all five main power lines converged before coming into Auckland.”
The failure was on four lines that fed Auckland CBD only. They came from two separate substations – Penrose and Mt Roskill.
These lines were locla distribution lines, so after the grid and a number of transformers would have been between them and the grid supply, so how would damaging temperature changes on one side of a transformer flow throught to the other without tripping it?
I doubt they shared common computer control systems.
Electricity cables are not hightly sensitive to temperature change, given they can run successfully under a range of load and weather conditions, from snow to summer heat, from zero power to overloaded. The colder it is the more you can push down them.
http://www.med.govt.nz/templates/Page____12136.aspx for the enquiry report
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Not much official comment from the Greens on the SCF debacle
There is a whiff of corruption about it methinks
Why the silence from us?
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foz says “Not much official comment from the Greens on the SCF debacle”
Nor from Labour.
I think most realise the alternative to the deposit guarantee scheme was the domino collapse of all our finaicial institutions running right though to the big banks.
That collapse would have taken with it many of those who were loaned money, as they would be forced to pay back the receivers if they couldn’t arrange other loans.
That would take down thousands of companies, home owners etc, on top of the losses from all the investors.
As it was the dominoes were already tumbling. Many of the 61 finance companies went bust simply because investors lost confidence and pulled their money out – not because they did anything wrong.
With all the premiums the govt has received from banks and finance companies (so far) totaling nearly as much as loses, the scheme has been highly successful at stopping our economy from collapsing inwards on itself.
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Yes but people making 40% profit in 3 days!!!
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like i said insider…i am not an expert on this…
i am only pointing people at the spook-allegation…
(..so i am unable to argue/rate the strength/merits of yr interpretation/dismissal…)
..and/but you do kinda blow it at the end when you point to the ‘official-report’..
(um..! dosen’t the matter-of-fact way this is discussed..by the sook..
…as an incidental/background fact…
a b.t.w…if you will..
dosen’t just that give you any pause for thought…?
…and for lots of questions to pop up..?
b.t.w…the anti-benchmark of ‘official-reports’…
..would have you believe a lone killer called oswald…
..was the only one involved in the kennedy-assasination..eh..?
‘official-report’ is often a synonym for ‘cover-up’..
..eh..?
this spook-allegation..to me…is a piece of what could be an intriuging jigsaw-puzzle…
..and worthy of further investigation…
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Does anyone know why Neil Roberts failed to blow up the Wanganui computer centre?
Phil; I did twig at the title I just thought that I had better read the whole article before I comment. As a matter of fact I have read ‘The Truth will Set you Free’ and a few others before that.
As for someone sabotaging the Auckland power grid by lap top;——improbable, more like incompetence. Any way I am more interested in the GREAT GLOBAL CONSPIRACY real or imagined.
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The Business School at the University of Auckland ran a Peak Oil Forum today. Dr Bob Lloyd of Otago University was the main presenter, with a short panel “discussion” thereafter. David Clendon was there and it would be interesting to read his thoughts on what he heard.
One panel member, Professor Basil Sharp appeared to think that the markets would take care of the issue and that Limits to Growth (1972) was completely wrong (when it actually stood up quite well to subsequent analysis), though he did want petrol to be priced to include externalities (but I don’t think understood that $14/litre petrol would mean a very different society) and didn’t want offshore oil exploration. Another panel member, Professor Peter Malin, believed that geothermal energy (generated from a nuclear reaction in the mantle) could just about plug the peak oil gap. Dr Carol Boyle was much more realistic about our prospects and even suggested that less technology is sometimes the answer (and she is an engineer). She also pointed out (with help from someone I couldn’t see) that the often quoted UN population estimate of 9 billion by mid century is only a lower bound and not even steady at that point. In addition, the estimates assume that the so-called demographic transition relies on steady economic growth in developing nations, up to that time. Steady economic growth is simply not possible in a resource constrained world.
The main speaker rightly identified our desire for economic growth as a major problem and made a number of excellent points about resource depletion.
Unfortunately, this message is getting out in dribs and drabs – the forum wasn’t held in one of the large lecture theatres but a small case room (maybe 100 people?).
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Phil, there is a way to protect against the most determined overseas hacker. Simply don’t connect the computer to the outside world, and that assumes that the control room was computerised to the point where it could be controlled as you suggest. I am not at all sure that the control room for the affected area was “computerised” as suggested, let alone that it could be tampered with.
And why would anyone even try?
And how many people would have had “lap-top” computers at that time?
“Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.”
Trevor.
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The wider education debate needs to refer to the writings of this respected american academic who initially supported the approach of our current government but found in practice it has serious flaws: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diane_Ravitch
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Military Study Warns of a Potentially Drastic Oil Crisis
http://robertguyton.blogspot.com/2010/09/thinking-about-peak-oil.html
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There is a summary translation of the German study on TheOilDrum and an English article about it in Der Spiegel.
The Peak Oil Forum speaker also mentioned three major reports about peak oil in the last 6 months. This makes four but John Key still buries his head in the sand.
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Dracula,
Dracula is more real than the Protocols of Zion, which is a hoax – albeit a particularly vicious hoax.
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