by Metiria Turei
There was an interesting report on Friday about the links between life expectancy, inequality, and smoking which revealed some pretty scary findings: the rich are living longer, the gap in life expectancy between rich and poor is growing, and so is the gap in life expectancy between Maori and non-Maori.
Radio New Zealand’s report noted that that according to the study, even Maori in high income brackets have a shorter life expectancy than non-Maori in the same income bracket.
Alarming, but sadly unsurprising, and entirely consistent with research that shows that a big gap between rich and poor is bad for people in all income brackets. Some of this is evidenced in the Housing Shareholders’ Advisory Group report showing that more than half of all private renters need the accommodation supplement to pay their rents. And the concerning lack of commitment to address the gap shown by the Welfare Working Group.
I wrote a blog post on inequality and life expectancy back in April when I was writing my ‘Inequality in Aotearoa’ series – and it seems timely to revive that series given this research, and some upcoming Government releases on hardship and inequality indicators that I know are coming up.
So stay tuned! I note also the Bryce at Liberation has started an inequality series on his blog, which is great. Sadly he seems to think no political parties in NZ are active on this issue – Bryce, check out Mind the Gap!
Have a great weekend everyone.
Published in Economy, Work, & Welfare | Featured | Health & Wellbeing by Metiria Turei on Sat, August 14th, 2010
Tags: Bryce Edwards, Health inequality, inequality, Inequality in Aotearoa, life expectancy, Maori, mind the gap, smoking
More posts by Metiria Turei | more about Metiria Turei
on the trolls and those who are unable to keep on topic
I suppose the question is …. is longer life expectancy
- a/ a result of making better life decisions which also results in better income, or
- b / a result of having s high income which is due to little more than luck
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Well I guess the rest of us need to get rich in order to afford good food and be able to live long. What could be worse-Die poor, I also belive you have to go green and you be able to live long.
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GO Green, you correlate going green to having a longer life. Look at the list here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy#List_by_the_CIA_World_Factbook_.282009_estimates.29
I’m struggling to see how you make the link?
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So what you have discovered is that smokers die sooner and are poorer? Or is what you are suggesting inequality has made one group more likely to smoke? How is “Maori” defined here? Do you see the subjugation of one culture by another as an underlying issue?
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…………..
No more so than in the Green Party (Turei, Clendon, Delahunty, Hague et al)
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Anne; Get on with the idea that some of our kids homes are unliveable?
Beyond personal responsibility there are a broad spectrum of conditions that we are freely taxed for, under the notion that ‘the Government’ is responsible and taking appropriate measures.
As a Volunteer social worker I found this idea to be Fraudulent at best.
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Jh, I dont think your right. We have been exposing the fact that income inequality appears to be a key driver behind a huge number of social problems and that therefore reducing that gap or “economic egalitarianism” if you’d rather, is a critical economic goal. But that is not itself sufficient and the truth is class politics never has been sufficient. Decolonisation in a colonised country is also a priority, as is gender equity, et al. I have never understood why people will only advocate for one single solution for what are complex problems that one solution will never fix.
Photonz – my question is what conditions are necessary to enable a person to be able to make better life decisions. Some of the worst decisions are nonetheless rational where choices are severely limited. Peter Gluckman on Q&A was good this morning talking about investing in kids as early as possible (to help with suicide prevention in teenagers) and that that means investing in their parents.
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.
Sounds good doesn’t it.
So how, exactly, are we going to do that?
Most of the programs I have seen preach a very narrow, very “leftist” ideology to people and completely deny the input of successful though not quite so socially “left” parents.
Individual responsibility has to be a part of it, the only person who can change an individual is the individual!
I have witnessed the damage that well meaning, though deluded people can have on young families.
People who have a “don’t do as I did” testimony need to leave it at that, realise their authority is limited, and stop trying to appease their own guilt through the lives of others.
The many Govt funded “programs” are packed full of such people.
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Mteria Turie Says:
“Decolonisation in a colonised country is also a priority, ”
……
That’s a can of worms!?
“For while Treaty settlements may return viable resources to certain Maori groups it is important to acknowledge that these represent a tiny fraction of the value of what has been taken. Even fiscal terms, as Hone Harawira told a recent gathering of Treaty educators, restitution amounts to about 3% of value and that therefore on such terms, settlement requires 97% Maori forgiveness. The
challenge that he left us with is what to do about that gap, the disparities, the injustices and the damage that will remain long after the last claim is done. He characterised this gulf as the less tangible, social, political and relational aspects of the Treaty of Waitangi that are neglected but crucial to our healthy collective futures. He also pointed out that with Treaty settlements scheduled
for completion in 2015, many of those in power are preparing to wash their hands of the Treaty and settle into the long established patterns of unjust exploitation of Maori land, resources and people that colonisation has bequeathed to them. There is a real urgency to this!”
Challenging and countering anti-Maori discourse: Practices for decolonisation
Keynote speech delivered by Dr Tim McCreanor to the New Zealand Psychological Society
Conference on 27 August 2009 in Palmerston North, on behalf of the Media and Health
Project
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How to respond to anti-Maori discourse (Psychological Society):
We can decolonise Aotearoa to create social equity among the peoples of this nation. We need to acknowledge and enact the Treaty and the indigenous rights of tangata whenua as tools to redress the wrongs and as guides to the ways forward. Fairly resourced, Maori culture as the vehicle for Maori values, beliefs and aspirations will support its people as our society adapts to an ever changing global world.Maori leaders need to be recognised as change agents, innovators and visionaries for a just society. Maori people as community, iwi and nation are inspiring, leading and supporting the development of sustainable futures for all peoples of Aotearoa. Pakeha in particular can educate ourselves to understand, endorse and co-operate in the development of Maori aspirations and self-determination, to create a national identity based on the diverse strengths of all groups that make up our society.
………..
He makes considerable value judgements about things Maori.
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Not even enough respect to spell an mp’s name?
I tried visiting several Other Parties’ Websites
But found any engagement a lie too far.
Someone would have to pay me jh.
So I just wonder, are you financed to be here?
Or do you get your kicks through masochism?
Anyway a talent for diversity means one may not be as exclusive as you might believe.
Any gut – feelings about ‘the people’ lately?
Or r u in a jam-jar world?
I sometimes wonder – is there a profound dichotomy in confronting people
you deem worthless?
An unnatural paradigm?
Met: our health system has the sensitivity to treat an average person well enough; unfortunately, ime they also refuse help to people because of perceived ‘second, third and fourth class status’.
It’s spelled Gossip, not Gospel
Yes the poor die unnecessarily, from simple lack of care; the medicines they might need gathering dust on a shelf somewhere.
I have stopped going to young people’s Tangi’s; lest I form a cynical ‘tude.
Best Mark
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Problem with the Greens co leader statement is that it is simply flag waving, hey people look at me I’m a radical!!!
Unless Metiria Turei can pad it out to signify exactly how decolonisation will occur it is nothing but a Maori radical wishlist item, totally unobtainable.
With the changing demographics (more asian and pacific island) in New Zealand the chances of decolonisation happening are pure fantasy.
Tauiwi dont give a continental about Maori grievances with the English colonial government.
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Perhaps you would be interested in an article in the New Scientist magazine that relates closely to issue at hand. Perhaps you’d be somewhat discomforted by the apparent biological determinist angle of the authors’ theories, but I believe that they’re pretty logically consistent and valid.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20727693.000-why-biology-should-inform-social-policy.html
Their belief is that people in deprived economic situations follow a natural behavioural strategy in the form of carrying out behaviours that people in other circumstances would believe to be risky, such as early pregnancies for teenage mothers and “delinquent” behaviours on the part of young men due to the fact that they recognise that they are likely to have a more brief span of healthy living. Naturally this does not mean that people in those circumstances are condemned to follow a biologically predetermined path, but what it does mean that the probability that they will do so is higher than for people in other circumstances.
To support the possibility that a poor life outcomes isn’t necessarily determined by economic circumstances perhaps the Kerala model could be looked into and potential solutions to address problems that affect people within developed countries that experience deprived circumstances could be found therein.
Health Indicators Kerala India
Birth rate (per 1,000 population) 15.00 23.80
Death rate (per 1,000 population) 6.40 7.60
Infant mortality rate (per 1,000 population) 14.00 58.00
Maternal mortality ratio (per lakh/live births)* 2001-03 110 300
Total Fertility rate (per woman) 1.70 2.90
Couple Protection rate (%) 72.10 52
Life at birth
Male Female
70.90 61.80
76.00 63.50
Total
73.45 62.70
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerala_model#cite_note-21
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I defy anyone to show with evidence that the son/daughter of (say) third generation mill-workers in Bennydale will have as much opportunity to acquire the same wealth and status as that of the child of investment bankers living in Remuera or similar. There might be a very rare exception, but we all know what is going to happen. We are all the result of the conditioning (values, customs, beliefs, etc.)we have experienced. There used to be much more acceptance of this, but there is precious little now in society generally. Academics and others who do the research and work directly with people affected know what is happening, but the values of our individualistic, capitalist system grow ever more powerful – and the ill-effects grow daily.
In places like this blog I hear less and less compassion and more and more cynicism. Which is why I rejoice that our Green Party at least have the leaders we have. I experience first-hand their compassion, commitment and courage to make a difference, especially for those whose voice is so rarely heard and who have so little influence on what happens in our society.
It is so easy to scoff and sneer from the sidelines. There are those of us who have work to do. Let’s get back to it, Met!
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Yes Metiria, it is scary that the rich are living longer! Still, the hired help now is so cheap and so desperate to find work that a few dying off early won’t matter in NAct’s scheme of things.
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Poor Maori. White man works hard to have good food and housing, Maori smokes and drinks and gambles the money away, and then wants more.
What is wrong with this picture Metiria? Welfare addiction from being too lazy? Somehow the hard workers (rich pricks) always cop the blame. Maori seem to think NZ owes them a living
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that hypothesis fits quite well as a partial explanation for why life expectancy is lower for poor people in countries with greater inequality (and something similar may explain the mysterious finding that life expecnatcy for rich people is also slightly lower in countries with greater inequality)
After this, Sleepytreehugger goes on to quote statistics for the Indian State of Kerala. Kerala’s successes have been attributed to a number of things, but it is the part of India where the geratest effort to reduce inequality has been made, so, in light of thye statistics about the effects of inequality in other countries, it seems likely that reduced inequality is part of the reason for Kerala’s success.
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Stevefromanotherblog, I suggest you go back to whatever other blog you came from.
I hesitate to use the words “racist prick”, but I think they describe you very appropriately Steve.
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I suggest you go back to whatever other blog you came from.
I hesitate to use the words “racist prick”, but I think they describe you very appropriately Steve.
………….
Spin it as you will Toad but decolonisation, an idea alive and well in the Green Party reeks of anti Pakeha sentiment Toad.
http://www.shore.ac.nz/projects/PsychologicalSocietyKeynote.pdf
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DPB EASY OUT FOR TOO MANY WAHINE
A veteran social worker says while the domestic purposes benefit has helped many Maori women get out of violent relationships, it has also contributed to break-ups.
West Auckland-based Lovey George is now working in programmes to reduce domestic violence.
She says the DPB has empowered many wahine who in the past would have been locked into unsatisfactory relationships.
A downside is some women use it rather than finding ways to work through relationship problems.
“Some wahine do take the easy way out and go for the DPB when they get hoha. DPB has lead to the break up of a lot of whanau,” Ms George says.
http://www.waateablogspot.com
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jh, stereotyping Maori as “lazy” is about as racist as it can get.
You forget who it was who stole the economic base from Maori – it was Pakeha just like you and me.
And how dare you accuse me of “anti Pakeha sentiment”! I am a Pakeha – one who realises that if we are to become a genuinely egalitarian society, we (as Pakeha) need to address the wrongs of the past that deprived Maori of their economic base.
That is why so many Maori are on the DPB – not because they are “lazy” as Stevefromsomewheretotherightofattilathehun claims.
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I defy anyone to show with evidence that the son/daughter of (say) third generation mill-workers in Bennydale will have as much opportunity to acquire the same wealth and status as that of the child of investment bankers living in Remuera or similar.
——–
genes?
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jh, stereotyping Maori as “lazy” is about as racist as it can get.
You forget who it was who stole the economic base from Maori – it was Pakeha just like you and me.
——–
Define “Maori”
Who is stereotyping now?
==============
And how dare you accuse me of “anti Pakeha sentiment”! I am a Pakeha – one who realises that if we are to become a genuinely egalitarian society, we (as Pakeha) need do address the wrongs of the past.
……..
The wrongs of the past are subjective.
Being a Pakeha doesn’t mean you don’t hate Pakeha. I’m not sure what you call that condition.. “hater and wrecker”?
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You forget who it was who stole the economic base from Maori – it was Pakeha just like you and me.
…….
If we looked at the population of indiviuals identifying as “Maori” how many individuals would that statement apply to (or Pakeha)?
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I’m still a bit wary of floods; seeding clouds as a Military Option; had no paper that looked “good”
How much fortunate we thought ourselves
It behooves me to shop co-dependance-give my unnatural
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Do people still buy into that guilt trip??.
What is your interprestation of “decolonialisation”??
Wonder how big a percentage of the Tauiwi in New Zealand will be bothered to even recognise such concept?
Especially as neither you nor Metiria Turei can provide a definative answer of what decolonisation means.
With Catherine Delahunty suggestion the one person one vote democracy is not the right way forward for New Zealand, one could well imagine the Greens “decolonisation” will mean an end to democracy as we know it?
Calling Maori “lazy” is just stupid on the part of those commentaters who did so.
They are no more motivated, or conversely lazy, than any other groups of people living in New Zealand.
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Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
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Are Maori good at anything jh?
………
Why shouldn’t they be?
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Tell me what they are good at – if you want to.
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You forget who it was who stole the economic base from Maori – it was Pakeha just like you and me.
…….
If we looked at the population of indiviuals identifying as “Maori” how many individuals would that statement apply to (or Pakeha)?
Answer: Just as we may identify with Wolverhampton Wanderers and share their history and triumphs those who identify as Maori can identify with the “stolen land”. Not that it makes that type of thinking anything to be proud of or contributing to “peace” (even if it is the sort of behaviour endorsed by the green party).
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@jh 7:44 PM
I am talking about the second half of the 19 century and the first half of the 20th century here – not about the second half of the 20th century when Maori were forced by the past deprivation of their economic base to leave their rohe for the cities in search of work, which has had an adverse effect on many of their (and their descendnts’) cultural identity and links to their land.
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Perhaps the answer involves people having the opportunity to “fix” themselves instead of idealistic hand wringing do gooders trying to do it for them.
Labour failed Maori.
They had 10 years.
The lefts form of idealistic social progression is just as screwed up in regards to helping people as any capitalist exploitation/oppression is.
When will people learn that it is about changing hearts not laws.
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Toad says:
You forget who it was who stole the economic base from Maori – it was Pakeha just like you and me.
I am talking about the second half of the 19 century and the first half of the 20th century here
……….
Quite a few generations ago (not to mention Maori on Maori involvement) and intermingling with Pakeha ancestry so the above statement is gross generalisation.
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Agreed, Shunda. Labour’s approach was patronising and equivocal – witness the Foreshore and Seabed Act, which exacerbated rather than addressed the grievances.
The answer imo is to provide Maori with resources, not laws. Sure, there will be some rip-offs, but let’s trust Maori to deal with that their own way, rather than cancel any economic development programme at the first sign of inappropriate expenditure.
We don’t abolish the Police Service because a few cops are exposed as racists, nor should we cancel Maori economic development programmes whenever their is the first hint of impropriety or Pakeha backlash, as has so often happened in the past.
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@jh 8:31 PM
Kupapa!!!
That always happens in colonisation – individuals or leaders of groups are bought off.
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bought off by whom? and for what reward?
Your answers on how and when decolonisation is to come about are distinctly lacking.
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Lacking definition the word itself would indicate the way of the Rasta. Not that many here do not already adopt similar views; despising the ‘babylon’ which has brought them all that they hold in favour of some romantic notion of ‘zion’. Throwing away that which allows our very existence.
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Zimbabwe Sapient; the British Emperors will be known by their Cruelty – as they sought to fleece (rip off) everything.
My teenage dreams of romantic Egypt; they were introduced; through Boys Yr Coaches; etc eyc etc
wellingtones at
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Mark,
I would hesitate to call Zimbabwe decolonized, at least in terms of the face implications of the word. After all, they may have thrown off British rule but the culture is still very much western and many of the benefits of the positivist/post-positivist paradigm continue to flow to much of the population.
No, decolonization can only mean the victory of misology. That is, unless it is meant to implicate some concept vastly more mild than the word itself implies.
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Toad, are you seriously suggesting that the reason why Maori are on the Domestic Purposes Benefit is because they were wronged in the past? Are you saying that there is some link between the colonial period and the choice of Maori women to have children even though their financial circumstances do not allow for it?
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Quite right – it is more like the people, have decided to hike the Gnats
But push comes to shove pretty quick
Government is a strong indicator of responsibility, or not.
What is Misology? (she took the dictionary)
Anyway, am still having terrible trouble reading and Writing – 20 or thirty colonial bone breaking kicks and punches to the Cranium have scrambled my memory & senses quite well.
The coppers think that’s pretty cute and have charged me for ‘being a bad bugger’.
Hated to be falsely condemned. but they did it
Might have to come to your Hospital – it pays to remember
who’ will try and save one’s life and who,
Will Stamp you dead for no particular reason
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Misology is the fear or hatred of reason and logic. It is a central tenet of Christianity and is, though less explicitly, implicated in most other religions, post-modernism, quackery, and (largely as a result of the aforementioned) many of the ideals of this party.
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Sapient’ sounds like Tao and Bhuddist philosophy will fit ok in the space.
So, Misology is a kind of solipsism?
One of the self-centred illnesses – so common today
Psychosis is a term we hear too often
Sending kiwi soldiers to Afghanistan,
The Brits haven’t learnt to let go
Think I’ll get another motorbike; Will let you know if I’m coming down
to get a brain transplant.
Palmy is offering a discount – with cryogenics I can afford to wait for Ms. Right (now)
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I would not call solipsism a misology. Depending on the form of the solipsism it can actually be the most logical position.
Negative solipsism is essentially the idea that one can not be certain of things outside of ones own existence; this is the second to last step in reductionism and is adopted by Descarte and, in a varied form (an existence in general rather than ones own existence), Nietzsche. This is a perfectly logical position and, indeed, one through which the truly logical person must pass. The final step in reductionism, one I made over a decade ago, is the recognition that even this realisation is based on the assumption of the validity of ones logic and thus that one can be certain not even of that. Unfortunately, Descarte never got this far. With Nietzsche, being an existentialist, it is hard to tell.
Positive solipsism, that which people normally think of when talking about such, is the assumption that you are the only one to exist. This does not need to come from the root above, but generally does. It tends to be found in individuals too stupid to have come to the philosophy themselves but rather whom have read the work of a solipsist, misunderstood it, and then decided that they can somehow build certainty from it. It is even more silly than positive atheism.
Buddhist philosophy is an interesting one. A lot of the atheist community do not consider it a religion, I am more inclined to see it as one, though. Especially as it still relies heavily on superstition. That said, it has shown itself very open to science but then again, very open to all sorts of quackery as well. There is a saying “If you open your mind too much, everything will fall out”.
As to Taoism, I keep trying to read about it but every time I do all I can see is a philosophy with little insight which is designed, primarily, to maintain patriarchy. Given its relatively small effect on me, I have only minimal desire to read sufficiently far so as to be able to rebut it as throughly as the silly Abrahamic faiths.
On the subject of patriarchy; I have discovered new terms this night while reading Pinker (as a psychologist, some of what he says is iffy but most of it is good); Equity feminism and Gender feminism. A very helpful split; more so than the more fuzzy ‘waves’. Equity feminism being the libertarian and equality side; that which I would claim to be. Gender feminist being the bat-sh!t crazy, full of misandry, anti-intellectual (see, it also ties in with misology
) side; that which does feminism and humanity a disservice.
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May have run across a few hundred of the latter.
What Years have taught me is that environmental consensus is perhaps more useful.
Though the solitary view may be profound – keeps to it’n reason and is therefore integral – I’m not sure it would take one s long way in the world.
Indeed I find many solipsists to be childish and vaguely amusing.
The Tao is an enervating force for change.
Being creatures of habit we slip into avoidance behaviour at this point – (every opportunity we get into lollies and pink elephants)self- centeredness is low-maintenance and primarily the art of finding ones-self correct (again)!
Pretty useless in many ways.
The Tao was initially written as a fishing, hunting, planting and reaping Manual – and makes no claim on the spiritual world (insofar as everything is connected to everything else).
Bhuddhism – does not hold itself to be a ‘religion’ in the usual sense.
More a case of take what you need and drop what you don’t- it aspires to a spiritual balance carrying over to one’s emotive wiring – achieving a state of balance.
When the Ottoman and Druze Muslems decried Education (a la Pol Pot)Pope Gregory wrote to the Patriarch of Antioch in 429 AD asking him to establish schools and continue contemporary research – thus I am able to write here instead of sweating over an inheritance of sand.
I would find negative solipsism quite difficult to attend – positive, perhaps tolerable.
But bhuddist meditations are broad spectrum and inconsistent with self absorption and avoidance.
Once begun – I find the View entrancing.
Reason and Logic are only threatening to the unreasonable and illogical hey?
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Toad Says:
@jh 8:31 PM
Kupapa!!!
That always happens in colonisation – individuals or leaders of groups are bought off.
……..
Only if you start with your black and white analysis.
What about Ihakara Tokonui @ 7:12. Was he “Uncle Tom”?
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Toad says:
“The answer imo is to provide Maori with resources, not laws. Sure, there will be some rip-offs, but let’s trust Maori to deal with that their own way, rather than cancel any economic development programme at the first sign of inappropriate expenditure.”
What sort of resources. Land? If so where? I’m sure many people would jump at the chance to take up a suitable spot where they could live self sufficiently with family and friends. Of course if we all did that we wouldn’t be getting the economies of large scale production; taxation might not be sufficient for DPB etc.
…. and another point we have examples of cooperation in our modern economic system where kin groups out perform others economically: Chinese culture and Exclusive Bretheren.
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Compare this pitch to Green supporters:
“We have a proud legacy as a fair and visionary society. From giving women the vote to banning nuclear arms from our shores, we have lead the world with our approaches towards the great challenges of our times.”
to the rhetoric of Catherine Delahunty:
“I am proud to stand here with these leaders of the best of Pakeha culture. They give me hope.
But the past and present state of the majority of the Pakeha nation is one of denial.”
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO0702/S00068.htm
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“Are you saying that there is some link between the colonial period and the choice of Maori women to have children even though their financial circumstances do not allow for it?”
Damn right there is. Destruction of the Maori economic base and the attacks on Maori economic development have created a stituation in which many Maori women live with low incomes.
And colonisation brought a nasty, brutish, anti-human society which, at its most vile, believes it is morally acceptable to tell people that having children is a privilege of the wealthier part of the population.
BTW, thanks for posting Tim McCreanor’s comments, jh, very interesting.
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Destruction of the Maori economic base and the attacks on Maori economic development have created a situation in which many Maori women live with low incomes.
………
I think there are two ideas embedded here one is the same line of thinking that goes “if we still owned Great Grandads land around X it would be worth $x today. We ignore the fact that there are a host of relatives who might also want to live around X (not to mention Pakeha ancestry amongst the group we call “Maori”). The other is the notion that Maori will prosper economically in a Maori society and you can overlay that image on any population size and/or industrial society.
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BTW, thanks for posting Tim McCreanor’s comments, jh, very interesting.
—
You’ll probably enjoy Abimael Guzmán
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shining_Path
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The Greens seem to be a one idea party:
Maori culture is the answer.
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“I think there are two ideas embedded here…”
You are wrong on both counts. The idea embedded here is that if Maori had continued to control land, Maori economic progress had not been attacked and Maori retained considerable political power, they would not have ended up in poverty. Are you suggesting that this would not have been the case? If so, why?
“You’ll probably enjoy Abimael Guzmán”
Slightly more thoughtful than the whining “you’re a Nazi” shriek that the right often regards as argument, I suppose. By the way, you’ll notice that I’ve strongly attacked Maoism and its heirs elsewhere on this blog.
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Maori culture is the answer.
Really, jh, it is you who obsess about Maori culture and this statement demonstrates the myopia is yours, not ours.
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The idea embedded here is that if Maori had continued to control land, Maori economic progress had not been attacked and Maori retained considerable political power, they would not have ended up in poverty. Are you suggesting that this would not have been the case? If so, why?
…..
As I said “if we still owned great Granddads land… think what it would be worth (downtown Auckland)?
Not being in that position doesn’t put Maori at a disadvantage so much as lumps them in with the majority (unless you assume that Pakeha wealth comes primarily from inheritance of property of various sorts).
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Valis Says:
Really, jh, it is you who obsess about Maori culture and this statement demonstrates the myopia is yours, not ours.
…..
Catherine Delahunty:
Pakeha have a choice, obsess about getting on the Rich List or take the opportunity to stand behind the indigenous protectors of planet earth.Pakeha culture has the potential to recover from our shared amnesia and remember who we are, it is happening in many corners, in the shared gardens, the books being written, the films being made, and truths being told by Pakeha who carry respect for Te Tiriti in their hearts.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO0702/S00068.htm
This is an example of taking people living in an industrial (and consumerist) society comparing the environmental impact of a hunter gatherer society and concluding the culture of the hunter gatherer society is better.
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Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
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Sam,
It is very true that the destruction of the Maori economic base had a substantial role to play in poverty at the time and, as an extension, at present. However, every generation has had a chance to change that. Starting out poor, especially in the New Zealand of most of last century, does not mean one will die poor. The continued poverty among Maori can only be attributed to the individual themselves, if to anyone.
The fact of the matter is that the observed failure to thrive, both among Maori and Pakeha, in the political climate of the last century can only be attributed to failure after failure. Failure of parents to strive, failure of parents to equip their children with decent skills, and failure of the state to step in and save children from incompetent parenting.
Once one accepts something as good or desirable, one accepts other things as bad or undesirable. If one desires prosperity, long life, or survival then the culture of the lower classes must go. It is not being Maori that puts one among these classes, initially, but the removal of base. Restoring base can not improve their state unless the culture itself is first uprooted.
As to the culture brought over; which lets you live past 30? I think it is fairly obvious which is superior; and it is not that of the natives.
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“The idea embedded here is that if Maori had continued to control land, Maori economic progress had not been attacked and Maori retained considerable political power, they would not have ended up in poverty..
“As I said “if we still owned great Granddads land… think what it would be worth (downtown Auckland)?”
jh – stop pretending to be ignorant – you can’t really have such a poor understanding of economics that you can’t differentiate between generating economic prosperity by developing a resource base (in a political environment that supports development) and simply holding on to a resource to sell later on.
“This is an example of taking people living in an industrial (and consumerist) society comparing the environmental impact of a hunter gatherer society and concluding the culture of the hunter gatherer society is better.”
No it isn’t. You might as well be looking at a cow and declaring it’s a horse (“it would be convenient for me if that was a horse, so I’ll insist it is one, and hope to fool those who can’t be bothered looking”). Though I’d agree that Catherine Delahunty’s comment is a load of rubbish.
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@jh 1:36 PM
I think you’re confusing it with “Hustler” magazine, jh.
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“Starting out poor, especially in the New Zealand of most of last century, does not mean one will die poor.”
It doesn’t mean that – it just means it’s highly likely. It’s even more likely if you are systematically discriminated against, if your language and culture aren’t valued, if you live in economically marginalised areas and if the education offered deeply rooted in an alien culture. In a competitive system, where somebody has to lose, the odds are firmly against you coming out on top.
Nor does it help if the vocations deemed appropriate for you low-skilled and subject to being made redundant by technological and political change.
“… failure of the state to step in and save children from incompetent parenting.”
I hadn’t noticed that the state was much good at parenting – those in state institutions don’t seem to come out as well-adjusted, model citizens.
“As to the culture brought over; which lets you live past 30? I think it is fairly obvious which is superior; and it is not that of the natives.”
Culture and technology are not the same thing. Maori never opposed the introduction of technologies from elsewhere – in fact they embraced them.
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By the way, jh, did you read this in the article on the Peruvian nut cases, the Shining Path, you linked to above?
“Many peasants were unhappy with the Shining Path’s rule for a variety of reasons, such as its disrespect for indigenous culture and institutions.”
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Sam,
Yes, starting out poor does mean you are likely to end poor, but only if the culture is proliferated. If your cognitive style, a massive part of ones culture, is adaptive, superior, then you will rise. The cognitive style of the poor is almost universally maladaptive, just as is the cognitive style of the religious nut. These things are passed from generation to generation and that is what must stop.
They need not come out on top, but at a decent level; that is not hard.
I am not saying that the state must remove children, I am saying that the state must stop the proliferation of the culture, and the cognitive styles associated with that culture, which lead people to remain poor. That is, after all, essentially the purpose of schooling for anyone hoping to produce anything but corporate slaves.
Culture and technology are not the same thing. Maori never opposed the introduction of technologies from elsewhere – in fact they embraced them.
Culture is, itself, the most fundamental technology and technology is transmitted and acquired via culture. It is the which culture defines the very way people think and as a result defines goals, strategies, and sight. The learning of Mesopotamia and the Greeks, the failure of the dark ages, the enlightenment; it is all because of cultural change. Culture defines us. The human is naturally week but through our hands, our words, and our brains, we become the fastest and strongest beasts with the sharpest fangs and claws. Some cultures give us better and better fangs while others give us only mediocrity. Some give us antibiotics while others give us pretty little poi dances.
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jh – stop pretending to be ignorant – you can’t really have such a poor understanding of economics that you can’t differentiate between generating economic prosperity by developing a resource base (in a political environment that supports development) and simply holding on to a resource to sell later on.
…..
what I’m saying is that regardless of how ancestral Maori were dispossessed it is history. The result is that they have tumbled into the same milieu as the majority of New Zealanders. What the counter argument seems to be is: Maori have a different culture and aren’t playing on equal terms until a set on conditions are met. Those conditions are reestablishing a tribal system with self governance but (especially) lands are supposed to appear: from some unknown place or around us where non Maori fit in by paying resource rental? But it will be fun as our tangata whenua hosts will do the job well.
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“What the counter argument seems to be is: Maori have a different culture and aren’t playing on equal terms until a set on conditions are met.”
That’s correct, plus there’s been a major theft of resources.
“Those conditions are reestablishing a tribal system with self governance”
Not necessarily – the current preference of iwi as the primary structure for Maori development seems to have been largely the result of the New Zealand state deciding to fund and champion iwi as the only representatives of Maori it is prepared recognise (true, there are minor exceptions). Thus iwi structures have developed a lot of power and profile that was previously lacking. Over the years Maori frequently turned to pan-iwi, hapu and non-traditional structures as vehicles for development aspirations, but the state has been unwilling to deal with them.
“the state must stop the proliferation of the culture, and the cognitive styles associated with that culture, which lead people to remain poor.”
I think I’d need to know exactly what change you are proposing, and why the state is able to, and would desire to, make this change, before I could comment.
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Sam,
Cognitive styles are primarily acquired by a child from their parents, but they can be re-written. It is the cognitive style that defines their ability to function in this world, their ability to make connections between ideas, and their ability to thrive as useful members of society. The school system partly reshapes the child’s style but doe snot go as far as it could. It becomes harder to reshape as the years go by but it can be done up to a couple of decades after birth, though with more effort. The majority of undergraduate education is essentially about providing the individual with a new cognitive style which they can actually use to learn and, in the sciences, to advance humanity. What I am proposing is making that change earlier, it is done in other countries and in the better schools even here. All it would take would be basic tuition in critical thinking and/or integration of thinking basics into lessons. By doing it earlier we capture them before they are lost causes and on the path to becoming bums like their parents; we can make them succeed and make them want to do so. It would result in a more skilled and educated population.
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plus there’s been a major theft of resources.
……
kind of a big open cheque that and something constantly alluded to without being specific. You all need to get together and produce a map of stolen land, beaches belonging to iwi and hapu, taonga under te tiritti etc etc. I suspect your happier with your lack of specifics or you might start to look rather unsociable.
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“You all need to get together and produce a map of stolen land, beaches belonging to iwi and hapu, taonga under te tiritti etc etc. I suspect your happier with your lack of specifics or you might start to look rather unsociable.”
I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but this is what the Waitangi Tribunal has been doing for years.
“All it would take would be basic tuition in critical thinking and/or integration of thinking basics into lessons.”
Sounds fine, but so far very vague, and doesn’t address a competitive economic system which requires losers – or are you suggesting we teach people to critique and change that system?
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Sam Says:
“I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but this is what the Waitangi Tribunal has been doing for years.”
I want to see the total (ie including the 97% to be written off). Is it too much to ask for specifics?
“For while Treaty settlements may return viable resources to certain Maori groups it is important to acknowledge that these represent a tiny fraction of the value of what has been taken. Even fiscal terms, as Hone Harawira told a recent gathering of Treaty educators, restitution amounts to about 3% of value and that therefore on such terms, settlement requires 97% Maori forgiveness. ”
Challenging and countering anti-Maori discourse: Practices for decolonisation
Keynote speech delivered by Dr Tim McCreanor to the New Zealand Psychological Society
Let’s face it, it would be interesting to see just how much land (some) Maori are claiming as wrongly taken (they may not look like victims).
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Sounds fine, but so far very vague, and doesn’t address a competitive economic system which requires losers – or are you suggesting we teach people to critique and change that system?
…….
in your system the losers will be those not in the hapu. Land will never be sold; only one group can hold mana whenua.
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“I want to see the total (ie including the 97% to be written off). Is it too much to ask for specifics?”
Read the Waitangi Tribunal reports.
“in your system the losers will be those not in the hapu.”
Didn’t you read my comments above regarding structures for self-governance?
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Sam,
Critique would certainly be a part of it.
The whole economic change thing is somewhat more difficult to conceptualize, at least for myself. As I see it, as technology advances fewer people will be needed to do the same volume of work. This has already happened to a substantial degree, however a substantial amount of lost jobs have been created in increasingly superfluous industries to take advantage of the extra labour. Eventually, if it is not already happening, there will be fewer and fewer jobs created per job lost such that we get a massive unemployable work force. At this point capitalism may fail completely as the ability of money to be cycled, and people to be repressed, is decreased by the lack of money to trickle-up. By encouraging people to adopt roles in science, academia, teaching, etc. we create a use for them that benefits society and provides them with a route for satisfaction; that is, we decrease many of the dangers of a large unemployed workforce. By taking advantage of the technology we should be able to support people in these roles without the need for a economy like we have today, assuming the means of production is in the hands of a body desiring such. Any deliberate transition would require critical thinking skills to be far more proliferate within the population than at present. One could say that I am proposing a mix of technological communism and trade-based economics. It is all, however, very iffy.
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How about everyones income goes into a giant fund that everyone equally gets paid from ? we can all live an equal quality of life.
Thats pretty much what you are asking for.
I didnt come from a rich family, I went to a public school, I worked in supermarket and retail for a good 6 years of my life, did a 1 year polytech course in IT, 10 years later im nearly freehold in a new house, pulling in $140K a year combined with my partner (who has similar story).
Am I any different to any other person ? did I get any help ? did I have more advantage or opportunity than the next guy \ girl ?.
NO !!!!
There is no excuse for not making a go at life, getting a decent career and earning a decent income. Hell, me and my partner could go back to working in a Call Centre and still pull $70K a year. More than enough to live off.
If people cant get off their arse and would rather sit around feeling sorry for themselves, pointing fingers, making excuses and playing the blame game then they deserve to be poor.
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How simplistic your comments are Mr2Guy.
Firstly,what was your upbringing? Were you bashed? Abused? Were your parent(s)supportive of what you did i.e. did they give a damn? What schooling did you have? How many schools did you attend? Were you moved from home to home, doctor to doctor? Did you have difficulty affording your school uniforms? Did you have heaps of friends as opposed to being ‘different’ and ‘a loner’ and ‘picked on’? What sort of health issues did you have. Were you handsome or not? If not did that make you feel inferior or did your particular character (I follow the theory of nature and nurture)push you to become successful. To work in a call centre you are expected to be fairly intelligent and able to be understood so your English and social skills must have been worked on at some stage during growing up.
That is about .1% of the possible questions you could be asked to ascertain how good or bad your life was from wo to go.
I’m sick of people and their ‘this and that happened to me and I’m still successful’ crap. My preference is for all those people who work 3 jobs to pay their bills, those invisible people who make this country run successfully, to stop doing it, but they can’t because they need to pay their bills, and the cretins know that.
Young kids get their brains rewired by some of the things that happen to them. Read Nigel Latta’s book Beyond the Darklands. He doesn’t go gently on his clients either, but he understands just what some of them have gone through.
Having said that, some people are intent on milking the system yet the sanctimonious cretins who ‘dun’good and want to crow about it apply those bad attitudes to everyone who needs government support.
Build a bridge…
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Also, Mr2Guy,
My friend and I used to debate this issue for hours. She considered she’d had a hard upbringing. Two parents, country school, all the food she needed, a father who would never be out of work and money to back buying her house.
She also talked about people getting off their arse… I think she’s a wonderful friend and would do anything for me but we will never agree that she has ever, ever had a ‘hard’ upbringing!
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OK good points, very good in fact, but why should it be my problem that some people had a hard upbringing ? fact is the people that go on to be successful end up paying a crap load of $ in taxes.
Our house pays about $30,000 a year in income tax alone, im all for solutions to help get people out of poverty, but as far as Im concerned I pay enough in tax to do my part.
Its upto the governement to do the rest with the money they have.
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Is it just me or did PM just blame peoples poverty on a combination of the individual’s reactions to their no good parents and the genetics obtained from those no good parents? lol.
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Mr2Guy
That is why I will not do voluntary work any more (once I’ve finished my stint i.e.; it’s all about what’s in for me now in this country, reversed to the 80s and the 90s.
Sapient
Haven’t you heard of nature and nurture, a mixture of parenting and personality. Also, it may not necessarily be no good parents either; parents who insist on their children playing fair, telling their children that they should do fair work for fair wages, telling their daughters that they will be treated equally in life and in work, etc. Obviously, these parents believe in a world that does not exist in New Zealand. Unfortunately, that will impact on those children who do their voluntary work (that means no income) and expect philosophically they will be treated equally with those who have plenty of financial resources at their disposal for schooling and networking for jobs. Unfortunately, their fair and civilised and equality minded parents did not prepare them for the brutal existence that this government has launched upon them. Like I said; just .1% of the questions to ask a person who is not receiving enough money to survive in this so-called land of opportunity, fairness and equality for all. Now that really is ‘laugh out loud’.
By the way, (l)ots (o)f (l)ove to you too. I didn’t know you cared!
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PM,
Of course I know about nature and nurture; I am a psychologist, indeed a cognitive neuro-scientist, it is a substantial part of my work and study. The comment was relating to the discussions of the last few days and the desire of many in this party to ignore any blame attributable to the individual or the individual’s parents in favor of blaming economic philosophy and practice.
It is the role of the parent to provide the child with the skills necessary to survive and prosper in the world. The parents you discuss, while not bad in the traditional sense, are certainly poor, though it be unintentional. It is entirely possible that a parent believes the child must be able to take a punch and to give a punch in order to survive in the world, s/he is still a poor parent if they decide to physically abuse them toward this end; the naivety instilled by the cited parents is similar. In fact, it is the expectation of much for nothing (not of equal treatment, but of reward without work) that is instilled in many children that leads to many problems.
An interesting point I encountered at a seminar about a month or so ago is that the present “everyone wins” attitude of schooling is encouraging exactly the same patterns of behavior thought to precipitate narcissism.
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“..I am a psychologist…”
aah..!..cd u explain my (non-homoerotic) mindflash of a nude oiled-up rodney hide/john boscawen…
..running at each other and belly-bumping…?
(as already noted here..at 1.35 pm..today..)
http://blog.greens.org.nz/2010/08/19/i%E2%80%99m-pretty-sceptical-about-boscowen/#comments
your advice/help(?) wd be appreciated…
..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Phil,
I am an academic rather than a clinical psychologist. While I have much of the same training as a clinical psychologist, I lack clinical experience and registration; I am not legally allowed to practice in this country or give advice in a professional capacity.
I am sure Freud would have much to say, but as a cognitively-minded non-practitioner all I can really say is that it is interesting that, despite your positions generally, your sense of humour is not inhibited by your gag reflex. I believe the general question should be “and how does that make you feel?”, lol.
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mildly interested in watching it….
it’s the ‘nude’ bit/imperative that concerns me…
(i mean..no matter what yr inclinations…hide/boscawen..?..together..?…whoar…!..)
..and..that i have no ‘gag-reflex’..at that prospect..(!)..
whoar…!..(again..!)
phil(whoar.co.nz
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If its any consolation, it may be frequent occurrence. It may be why Heather was removed, unsportsmanlike conduct and all.
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