by frog
Sally forth…
Published in THE ISSUES by frog on Sat, August 7th, 2010
Tags: general debate
General debate 7th August 2010
Published: August 7, 2010
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on the trolls and those who are unable to keep on topic
Sup greenies!!!
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Might be old news to some, but interesting to see it reported in reasonably mainstream magazine:
Transgenic Canola Plants Break Free of Farm – Scientific American Science in 60 seconds podcast.
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A more detailed write-up is also there: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=genetically-modified-crop
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frog: you weren’t shocked by goings on in te urewera were you:
Nothing to see there:
http://www.webcitation.org/5TKxC4i2W
[frog: I've moved this to General debate, because off-topic where you posted it.]
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tiger woods eh..?
live by the golf club…
die by the golf club..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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And meanwhile, we’ll probably have another s**tty summer like usual.
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did anyone hear the anti-vegan polemic on kim hills’ show this morning..?
i was a bit pissed when i heard about it…until i hunted down some of his writing/ideas…
and then nearly fell off the chair from laughing…
the guy (fromme..)..is barking mad…and his ideas also laughable..
..and the actual interview was bordering on surreal…
..with hill barely able to conceal her contempt/laughing at him…
..and he was like some boring grumpy old fart on talkback radio …
..(with multiple burrs under his saddle…)
..just banging on and on..
..and seeming barely able to understand hills’(gentle)-questioning…
..let alone answer them in any semblance of a coherent manner..
..he was the best advertisment for ‘vegan’..
..since whenever…
..and the interview is worth listening to for the involuntary humour proffered…
..and hills’ barely concealed incredulity….at her guest..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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here is the link for the fromme interview…
http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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holy hell…it’s Rugby o’clock in Nouvelle Zelande’
listen, in your pre-footy excitement.
I want to see a Maori Team in the World Cup,,,,winston.
make yerself useful for us willya – them Greens’ll take ya inside
no worries
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FFS, Mark, you don’t watch the build-up do you? It’s a bit boring these days without Andy Haden’s enlightened comments about “too many darkies” and women “gagging for it”.
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Yes, Phil, it seems (according to Fromm) that humans ‘should be’ meat eaters because we generally start out with mother’s milk… which is clearly animal protein! Apart from this dictum being an example of the naturalistic fallacy (deriving a moral stance from a statement of fact), I fail to see how it follows that we are then committed to relying on our fellow creatures for our sustenance. Indeed, taken to its logical conclusion wouldn’t this line of argument support cannabalism?
The argument that we would not have dramatically evolved from the (largely vegan) primates without consuming animal protein (for cranial development)does sound more plausible. However, it does not follow that this practice needs to be adhered to in the modern context – I don’t see any vegans returning to the trees!
Is it correct, Phil, that vegans need to take dietry supplements (B12?) for their wellbeing?
The other comment that was left ‘hanging’ was the one about the need for animal waste based fertilisers for plant growth.
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http://www.doingbusiness.org/economyrankings/
Just how far do we tip the balance towards supporting business at the expense of the environment and quality of life.
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Toad; harhar I just sensed the Nation was in a State of pre-coital excitement. Being electromagnetically sensitive I went outside to drink in the darkness and found it full of electrostatic energy.
Call it Cultural Studies if you like – but it’s pretty intense.
Incidentally did you see Jon Key waving our Bledisloe around?
I’ve seen that one backfire too!
Bob Hawke used to pull that stunt – but those ever direct Aussies used to boo him off the Park!
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http://whoar.co.nz/2010/obervor-editoriala-unique-chance-to-rethink-drugs-policy/
“…Mr Cameron and Mr Clegg are perfectly placed to launch a national debate on whether we should try legalisation.
If the purpose of drug policy is to make toxic substances available to anyone who wants them …
… in a flourishing market economy controlled by murderous criminal gangs …
… the current arrangements are working well.
If, however, the goal is to reduce the amount of drugs being consumed … and limit the harm associated with addiction …
… it is surely time to tear up the current policy.
It has failed.
This is not a partial failure.
For as long as courts and jails have been the tools for controlling drugs … their use has increased.
Police are powerless to control the flow.
One recent estimate calculated that around 1% of the total supply to the UK is intercepted.
Attempts to crack down have little impact …
… except perhaps in siphoning vulnerable young people into jails …
… where they can mature into hardened villains.
When a more heavyweight player is taken out … a gap opens up in the supply chain …
… which is promptly filled by violent competition between or within gangs.
Business as usual resumes.
The same story is told around the world …
… the only difference being in the scale of violence…”
(and..)
“..The unthinkable is creeping into the realm of the plausible.
In the US, several states have relaxed cannabis law … a trend driven by a loose coalition of hard right libertarians and soft left baby-boomers.
American society is slowly coming to terms with the fact that drugs are part of its everyday reality …
… and that control might be more effective if use was allowed within the law … not forced outside it.
That debate must be opened in Britain and the recent change of government provides a rare opportunity.
Politicians have generally shown little courage in confronting inconvenient truths about drugs.
And the longer a government is in office … the more it feels bound to defend the status quo; …
…to do otherwise would be admitting complicity in an expensive failure.
So the lazy rhetoric of popular moralism continues to shape our national conversation:…
… drugs are a scourge … and they must be rooted out of our communities…” (cont:..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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also interesting to see/hear the msm finally asking the question:..
‘um..!..just why are we in afghanistan..?’
better late than never..i s’pose.
up untill now..they seem to have just mindlessly defended/parroted the govts’ increasingly weakening war-rationales..
(who can forget when our armchair-warrior-in-chief..key..returned from a visit there..
..all fired up..?..with/by war-fever..)
and promising our troops for the forseeable future…?
and although only a matter of months….
..dosen’t that seem such a long time ago..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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and could someone tell goff he dosen’t need to smile all the time…
..our current (ever/fast-worsening)circumstances are ripe for a bit of gravitas…
..and anyway…
..the other fella has the smile ‘n wave market pretty much cornered…
..i think we are near sugar-o.d.-level with that one…
..the hangover is starting to seriously kick in…
..and the ‘whattaya got..?..no really..!..whattayagot..?-questions will only get harder/louder between now and the next election…
the creative-gyrations by key at the news his ‘closing-the-wage-gap-with-aust’ cornerstone policy…
..has been proven as nothing more than a sick joke…
..(borrow..and screw the poor…
…to fund tax cuts for the likes of him…eh..?..)
..now that’s ‘transformational’..!
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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This is interesting – plastic eating bugs may be part of the answer to our growing problem with excess plastic in landfills and the oceans.
http://story.londonmercury.com/index.php/ct/9/cid/a6470658fef1b31c/id/408892/cs/1/
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Phil, I think the problem is that Western countries have been far too soft on drugs for far too long. What is the drug problem like in Singapore? I highly doubt that there is a drug problem in Singapore – why? Because the Singaporean Government comes down hard on drug dealers. While I am not advocating the use of the death penalty for drug dealers, it might be time to send them to prison for a very long time.
Of course, the flipside is that drug addicts do need help – but they should be given just the one chance.
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We need to be more like Singapore? I guess you don’t complain about the nanny state in NZ then.
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the milk of human compassion/kindness runs deep and wide in you..there…
..john-ston..
..eh..?
i mean..don’t let rational thinking get in the way of yr irrational prejudices..
..eh..?
(cling to what obviously dosen’t ‘work’…eh..?..
..that’s the way to go..eh..?..)
so..is that the extent of your argument..?..there..john-ston..?
..the singapore/authoritarian-thread/maxims…?
..that’s all ya got..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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The Council for Educational Research has confirmed what teachers have been claiming all along, National Standards don’t work. Failing 15% more children, who are actually working above their age group norms, makes no sense and strengthens the view that the standards should have been trialed before being forced onto our schools.
Those Principals who have attempted to protect their children from this mess are just behaving in a professionally ethical manner and to have them be publicly chastised by the Minister for doing so is disgraceful.
http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/stories/2010/08/09/2aad4bf11c01
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Generally I don’t; while dictating how much water is allowed to come out of your shower was of significant concern, there isn’t too much in terms of a “nanny state” within New Zealand.
Phil U, I could further extend the argument and include the likes of Indonesia, Malaysia and Thailand. The problem with the “War on Drugs” has been that it has focussed on the wrong areas – ultimately crime comes down to a three way cost/benefit analysis; the punishment vs the likelihood of getting caught vs the benefits from the crime. Increase the punishment, and you increase the disincentive to commit the crime.
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John-ston, you ask “What is the drug problem like in Singapore?”
I am no expert but I can use google
“Over the past two decades there has been an increasing trend towards drug use” http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3535959
Perhaps they’re not hanging enough of those scum
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gareth morgan has just spoken total sense..
(as in basic universal wage and value of good parenting…)
on jim moras’ panel segment on national radio…
it should be online soon…
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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“..Increase the punishment, and you increase the disincentive to commit the crime…”
america has the most draconian prison sentences…for small amounts..
..that seems to dent yr thesis somewhat…eh..?
why don’t you have a look at portugal….?
..where they legalised posession of everything..for a five year trial-period..
they are now thundering through their second five year period..
drug use has not gone up….
(and they are not sending their young people to crime-finishing-schools…
..just for getting loaded/high..
..and the taxpayers’ money saved…?…whoar..!..it’s huge..!)
there will always be a section of society who choose to self-medicate…
…using alcohol…or w.h.y…
..so what…?
..you seriously advocate they should be jailed for that…?
..i wd seriously like to hear your rational-reasons for advocating the obvious failure that is prohibition…
..’cos really…i can’t see any..eh..?
and the reasons for…?
..they are legion…
the savings on this false ‘law-enforcement’..
the savings from not imprisoning..
(no need for new jails..eh..?..)
and you would help solve the east cape/northland poverty problems in one fell swoop..
..let growers register to legally grow…and pat taxes on their incomes…
..i mean….it’s a no-brainer…
phil(whoar.cor.co.nz)
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Simple because the rest of society has to pay for the results of their decision. If someone chooses to get high their whole life on dope and suffers from some medical problem as a result, then it is us the taxpayer who has to cover the tab (this is part of the reason why some people advocate the banning of tobacco). Some of the harsher drugs have other negative effects; let us not forget the people who have been murdered as a result of someone being high on methampthetamine. There is enough anecdotal evidence to show that drugs such as marijuana are used as a gateway to harsher drugs such as cocaine, heroin and of course methampthetamine.
Legislation just makes the drugs more accessible to the population, and those who would have been disincentivised from using drugs due to their illegality would now not have that disincentive.
Of course there were also valid reasons why it was banned in the first place; we don’t just ban things for the fun of it, you know.
While American sentences may be more draconian than New Zealand ones, they are still quite weak compared with sentences from Asian countries for other minor offences.
The poverty problems of Northland could be more easily solved by improving their infrastructure links with Auckland; the poverty problems of the East Cape would be harder to solve, but you don’t solve poverty problems by legalising drugs.
You can equally get the savings by coming down like a hammer – if you sent all drug dealers to prison for a very long time then there would be fewer drug dealers.
Fin, they are firstly talking about those who try the drugs and not those who are addicts. Secondly, they have grouped South-East Asia together, so it wouldn’t surprise me if most of your increase is from countries where punishments are much softer. Thirdly, it has doubled from a relatively small base – what was the equivalent base in a Western country?
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Why get so uptight about other people’s drug use?
Illicit drugs do very little damage to society except for the interface with the law.
Alcohol is the most disruptive and tobacco is the most damaging.
There are probably about 500,000 users of illegal drugs in NZ. Very little damage.
peace
W
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I’m curious about this alleged tab. How big is it? How much does the country spend on the health damage caused by weed smokers? How many weed smokers ended up in A&E last weekend?
Do you have any figures?
I am also curious about how you quantify any alleged social damage from weed, like loss of moral character or whatever.
Also, for comparison: Do you know how much we spend locking up weed smokers / dealers, both in prison costs and in the social costs of criminalising otherwise normal people (wrecked careers, broken families, etc)? Do you have any figures on that?
How many people are deterred from smoking weed by the threat of prison, and is the cost of maintaining that prison threat smaller or larger than the cost of the alleged ‘tab’ that would have occurred if they smoked? Don’t forget to include the cost of wasting police time when they could be solving real crime.
Or are you full of hot air about things you know nothing about?
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Rimu, I don’t have the figures because I am pretty sure that such analysis has not been undertaken. Even if it did, I doubt that it would give a figure that was reasonably precise.
However, when you consider the established health problems caused by the consumption of illegal drugs, then you have to agree that there would be a health cost. It doesn’t matter if it is $100 million, $1 billion or $5 billion, it is still a cost. If we are going to persecute cigarette smokers for all the health costs they impose on society, then surely keeping illicit drugs illegal would be fair?
Again, no such figures exist because no such research has been conducted.
Rimu, drug crime is usually associated with real crime too – a criminal gang is not only producing methampthetamines, they are also committing murder, theft and other undesirable acts – the problem is that the police are half incompetent when it comes to the solving of crime. In terms of deterrence, again, no established figures, but it makes sense – if something illegal, then people are deterred from doing it; why do you think that the average person obeys (or at least attempts to obey) the speed limit?
Rimu, common sense dictates that if you don’t want to go to prison, then you do not commit illegal acts. Common sense dictates that if something causes health problems, then there will be a cost to the taxpayer. Common sense dictates that “unreal” crime and real crime go hand in hand.
That is because there are far more drinkers and cigarette smokers than there are consumers of marijuana or methampthetamine. If we had as many people getting high on ampthetamines as we do people getting drunk, then the former would be more disruptive, and if we had as many people smoking dope as we do smoking cigarettes, then the former would be more damaging.
I dare you to say that to the family of the pizza delivery guy who was murdered by a man high on methampthetamine. I dare you to say that to the family of the bank teller who was murdered by the same guy. I dare you to say that to the two women who had their hands cut of by a guy high on methampthetamine.
Drugs are a scourge on our society, they aren’t merely “little damage” – if we legalised the lot, then we would see a lot more people committing murder whilst high on dangerous drugs.
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“There are probably about 500,000 users of illegal drugs in NZ. Very little damage.” says bliss.
It’s well known drug use is one of the top causes of child abuse.
Add to that neglect – people with not enough money to look after their kids properly, often prioritise spending on drugs.
And obviously you haven’t taken a stroll through your local psyche ward recently.
A recent NZ study of 1000 dead drivers found that 365 had drugs in their system – a similar rate of dead drugged drivers to dead drunk drivers.
Yet 80% of people who drive drugged believe they can drive as well or better drugged than they can normally. What does that tell us about intelligence or the effects of drug use?
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bit of a cheek Phil – UK has several quality daily national ‘broadsheet’ newspapers whilst NZ has NIL !
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Phil – Kim’s brilliant interviewing technique did have him on the hop several times but I thought he made quite a lot of sense and between them came to the conclusion that veganism/vegitarianism boils down to your idea of what is ethical and as Kim said ethics has no real boundaries. It’s all where your perspective is. Any cruelty to animals sucks, including what we often do to our fellow human animals.
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Yeah we should be doing something about those on State welfare.
Banks and finance companies who fail with Government guarantees.
Employers who can pay low wages because the state takes up the slack with WFF and childcare allowances. Poor employers who drive good ones out of business because labour laws are so slack.
State owned companies given away to corporates.
External subsidies from ratepayers to dirty Dairy.
Employers given handouts to employ people who then get rid of them when the subsidy ends so they can get someone else who is subsidised.
State pays training for employees so employers do not have to pay for it.
Banks getting windfall profits when the OCR is raised.
Currency speculators who short the NZ dollar.
Police protection against people they have disenfranchised.
Yep we really do need to cut welfare.
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“..bit of a cheek Phil – UK has several quality daily national ‘broadsheet’ newspapers whilst NZ has NIL !..”
but new zealand has whoar.co.nz eh..?
show me a better local/global daily-news-grab….
..and i’ll publicise/promote/link to it..
..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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so…john-ston..
you are falling back on the traditional ‘scare-stories’…eh..?
using totally unproven/discredited ‘gateway-arguments’..(you almost get a nostalgia-award for that one..eh..?..)
and a few media beat-ups/anecdotals…
that’s all ya got..?
if you want some accurate information/science..
try this..
http://whoar.co.nz/?s=marijuana+cannabis
if you still have any questions…
..get back to me…
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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just to make it easier for you…
you could start here…as a primer..
http://whoar.co.nz/2010/dismantling-the-5-big-talking-points-of-marijuana-prohibitionists-2/
(but only if you have an open-mind…eh..?..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Using illegal drugs will cause people to abuse their children but legal drugs are safe. Quack.
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“..Phil – Kim’s brilliant interviewing technique did have him on the hop..”
i thought she was really easy on him…
treating/humoring him like a dotty old uncle…
just the opposite of the caning he deserved…
..for peddling his dissembling rubbish..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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john-ston as I expected, you’ve got nothing except faith, ‘common sense’ and appeals to authority.
I strongly suggest you review this list of fallacious arguments, and then try to avoid making them in future because at the moment you’re embarrassing yourself.
In particular, http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html#they_say and http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html#commonsense
This is basic stuff mate. You owe it to yourself to invest the time in learning it.
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Are you aware that weed, by far the most common illegal drug, stays in your system for months after use, making it extremely difficult to tell how recently the drug was consumed? Someone could get high, come down 4 hours later, sleep, go to work, crash on the way home and the test would show ‘drugs in his system’ even though he was not impaired at all
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We here suffer the same system. We imitate it like willing little pigs being led to slaughter.
With a SUSTAINABLE monetary system, a sustainable economy and environmental sustainability follow. Without it, neither are even thinkable… they would entail too much “sacrifice”… and massive government intervention…. not noticing that the government has intervened to present it all to the bankers and their minions.
BJ
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The billions spent on the war on drugs has had no noticeable effect on drug use.
It is time we realized prohibition of drugs has been a similar failure.
Countries who have legalized possession and put the money into treatment programs have been more successful in reducing harm due to drugs than those who are still trying prohibition.
It is a bit strange that dealers in the most harmful drug in NZ get Knighthoods while someone growing a little dope in their backyard gets the full weight of the law applied.
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Farmageddon! If you live outside of Otago and couldn’t get to Orokonui for Farmageddon and therefore missed out on an awesome weekend, you can catch up with the play here … http://robertguyton.blogspot.com/2010/08/there-were-no-oxen-lumbering-around.html
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john-ston…how about answering/addressing the 9.37am from yesterday (10th) on this thread..?
you ran away…right in the middle of a conversation…?
did yo read that (short) link/piece listing the five arguments you make…?
http://whoar.co.nz/2010/dismantling-the-5-big-talking-points-of-marijuana-prohibitionists-2/
i’d be keen to get yr feedback on that…
..eh..?
your rebuttals..?..or w.h.y…?
if you had the time…you cd list/address each one…
one by one…
..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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remember john-ston…an open mind is a beautiful thing to behold…
..eh..?
tho’ reading yr ‘what-i-wd-do-with/to-prisoners’ pretty much casts you in the deeply reactionary mold …
eh..?
so..extending the pissing-into-the-wind analogy..
…i’m just heading for damp-pants…
..eh..?
(do you know/are you related to…redbaiter(tm)..?
..by any chance..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Energy Investment banker and leading peak oil proponent Matthew Simmons died suddenly on Sunday [Aug. 8], following an apparent heart attack.
http://www.energybulletin.net/node/53741
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I have been recently reading how China has strongly focused on upgrading their railways and now have passenger trains travelling between cities at up to 300km an hour. Mean while in New Zealand our train passenger services are appallingly unreliable and outdated and speeds over 100km would probably be dangerous on poorly maintained tracks and aging rolling stock.
The to travel between the South Island’s 2nd and 3rd largest cities it is a drive of 2 1/2 hours by car and up to 3 by bus, we have no air service or passenger trains connecting us. With the amalgamation of our two hospital boards, you would think that public transport between our cities would have progressed somewhat over the last fifty years, but the opposite is true.
You would think that there would be lots of potential in the development of our transport infrastructure down here with great spin offs in jobs and economic development……but no, let’s just focus on driving down pay and conditions and welfare.
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Thanks for that, jh, it’s a real shame. Anyone who thinks peak oil is a sham should read Simmons’ Twilight in the Desert or see the film The End of Suburbia that he also featured in.
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sprout – if it is uneconomic to run a passenger train between Dunedin and Invercargill using EXISTING infrastructure, it will be massively uneconomic to do it with new trains and high speed track.
Besides, a bus with 15 people on it will use far less fuel than a train with 15 people on it, and is not limited to stopping only at railway stations, one trip per day etc.
There seems to be little understanding amongst many greens that there is a very high threshhold before trains become efficient.
Often they advocate for rail even though it is often FAR LESS EFFICIENT than alternatives.
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Sprout; China has been upgrading it’s Navy too – and the Dong Feng2 Missile can currently take out any US carrier that wants to protect Taiwan – Communism was always a wolf in sheep’s clothing – cos’ power is an absolute corrupter.
Valis; I’m a denyer – but based on what I’ve read by Fletcher Prouty, and what he says the US Govt. discovered in the early sixties.
There is also a Russian report about that describes the science of
oil leaking outward into layers from the earths inner mantle.
Still – It’ll be a darned good thing if the stuff does run out as apparently the uman race doesn’t have enough collective sense to stop choking itself!
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Valis – so if peak oil is as bad as many people make out, then our climate change issues are automatically solved?
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That would be a terribly simplistic conclusion, though it would play a part. But if we don’t keep coal in the ground, we’re stuffed no matter what else we do.
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As long as we don’t go too far and have a low carbon atmosphere that kills all the plants.
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As long as we don’t go too far and have a low carbon atmosphere that kills all the plants.
Eh heh. There have been many plants on this planet pre-coal power stations.
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Mark, what does Prouty say the US discovered in the early 60′s? Certainly the abiogenic petroleum origin theory doesn’t have many supporters these days.
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Considering trees are essentially completely made up from carbon taken from the air, they might just grow a bit slower.
I suppose as long as there’s enough bush and forest fires, volcanoes errupting etc, they’ll be ok.
As long as sea level rise doesn’t increase the oceans uptake of carbon too much.
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If you really think that is a serious worry compared to how increased CO2 is changing the planet, you need to read a bit more. Start with Storms of My Grandchildren by James Hansen or Eaarth by Bill McKibben.
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Valis; Prouty (Chairman to Kennedy’s JCS) said that the US found there was a layer all over the world lying at different depths.
IE; if you want to find oil, and you are prepared to dig deep enough – it can be found anywhere (an unlimited ocean).
I trammel this as being 50yr old info; but then the Chinese aren’t bothering to make anything but petrol cars for their 1.5 billion people – neither does India – why are these potentially monumental users designing Petrol driven engines?
The evidence seems collusory to me -in two senses – either OPEC wants to keep prices at a premium until stocks run out – or stocks are inflated falsely, using peak oil as a frightener, whereas those people kinow they will be able to sell oil burners up until we, the people decide to turn them away….
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China has an extra billion people. They can build a network.
I think you probably have no idea of the cost of a high speed train service. If it’s not economically feasible between many major cities, then a high speed service from Dunedin to Invercargill is a no-brainer
A dead end line to a city with just 0.05 million people, and you want a high speed service. It would be cheaper to buy Invercargill and shift it to Dunedin.
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I’m with the Sprout on this one – was shocked to see an actual train whist driving north last week.
The main (and considerable) cost of rail is laying the running gear – one Railwayman told me it cost about 2c in electricity to run trains between Porirua and Wellington – the journey that cancels out that much needed(?) Transmission Gully.
We have the most expensive items already in place here – and they are being let go to rot….
My Melbourne Company could Truck goods to Brisbane for about $20-$30.
The equivalent Rail Cost for the same time frame was $4.20.
Believe me, when it’s coming out of your own pocket – one does notice!
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I’m more inclined to believe Simmons. Twilight in the Desert, as jh’s link says, is based on “50 years of technical papers submitted by Saudi oil geologists to the Society of Petroleum Engineers, and uncovered what he called ‘the biggest energy illusion ever in the world.’” The Saudis always claimed they had huge reserves while providing little evidence. Simmons blows those claims out of the water.
But if there is a huge supply we don’t know about, I guess we’ll find out as soon as the Chinese start supplying their local market on the cheap. Can’t be that far away.
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There is probably still lots of oil, (Our great South basin for instance), but the costs and side effects of mining it will be very high.
Not to mention AGW effects which are happening now.
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Aye Valis Interesting; – the Saudi’s are running dry – then fields intersect different countries…one of greedy ol Saddam’s reasons to go to war.
Then you have people who can’t sell Internationally like Indonesia, Venezuela, Iran.
The worlds reserves are large enough to (horror of horrors), reduce the price to 50c a litre tomorrow.
Fields get discovered and capped for future use every week.
Only the consumer is ‘running out’
Funnily enough I can recall this being an ‘uge isssue in NZ in 1964 when we were told the oil had ‘all gone’.
Good One!!!!
and BP can surrender those funds, and remain wealthy beyond measure? – and people bitch about too much oil in the Gulf; so do I – I loved their penguins – their languid drifting formation flying…
The world lost a natural phenomena there. I’ve not seen anywhere else.
Oh Dear…
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Mark, I’m not an expert, but huge reserves are just what the Saudi’s and others have been accused of falsely claiming. And everything I read is that we’re living off reserves already, with new capacity being found at a small fraction of what is needed for replacement. What evidence do you know of to say these things aren’t true?
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Got a part of that well valis…no; oil is the paper traded on Wall St and Bond St; and some Comic has pinched my phrase
“Sense of Entitlement:”;
Who do these kiwi’s think they are?
It suggests that’s all part of our Identity as a Country in it’s own write…
I wouldn’t mind, owning up to be a kiwi – anywhere in the world,
often meet truly Great other kiwis there…
no Valis… the reserves and all other regulation is built around supreme profit margins.
Reserves mean allowing you to but only so much
ie; you want a barrel of oil today Kivi?
In this matter our self-sufficiency is ample as the New Plymouth Oil is some of the best quality in the the world.
we sell it for sludge (fo’ de dollars man)
The Current Change in GST, is capable of sinking 80% of our small business forthwith.
Te Great Nation neh?
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Photonz1 -When the rail network was first established well over 100 years ago our population was far smaller and the relative investment was much greater, despite this it was a key factor in building economic growth. I agree with Kerry if most developed nations are building and strengthening their rail systems there must be something in it.
National’s plan of always following other’s initiatives is stupid thinking, we are rapidly losing our developed nation status:
-Run down transport infrastructure
-A huge % of poorly constructed and insulated housing
-A rapidly expanding % of low wage families
-Notable growth in 3rd world, poverty related illnesses
-Desperately looking for overseas investment
-While other countries are lifting their levels of environmental protection we are causing the rapid deterioration of our water resources through largely uncontrolled industrial farming
-energetically looking at the mining of coal and lignite, fuels that drove nineteenth century economies not 21st Century.
We are going backwards!
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