by frog
KiwiRail toys with idea of moving people from A to B (and sometimes C) with trains.
Why has this never been tried before?
Which reminds me of this quote from Douglas Adams’ The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy:
“The trouble with most forms of transport, he thought, is basically one of them not being worth all the bother. On Earth – when there had been an Earth, before it was demolished to make way for a new hyperspace bypass – the problem had been with cars. The disadvantages involved in pulling lots of black sticky slime from out of the ground where it had been safely hidden out of harm’s way, turning it into tar to cover the land with, smoke to fill the air with and pouring the rest into the sea, all seemed to outweigh the advantages of being able to get more quickly from one place to another – particularly when the place you arrived at had probably become, as a result of this, very similar to the place you had left, i.e. covered with tar, full of smoke and short of fish.”
Published in Economy, Work, & Welfare by frog on Tue, April 6th, 2010
Tags: christchurch, Douglas Adams, dunedin, KiwiRail, rail
on the trolls and those who are unable to keep on topic
Nice quote Frog!
I am told that much of our rail-track infrastructure has fallen into disrepair – can anyone confirm this?
and to what extent?
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For example just before they closed the SOL line last year 1 in 100 trains that went down it was de-railing… A stat that would shame the most backwater African dictatorship…
But if you don’t invest in the track for 25 years this is what happens… National will be making some announcements about the rail network in the May budget, I am expecting lots of line closures and some large (in NZ terms) investment is whatever they leave open… It will be purely commercial in nature and won’t take into account, peak “cheap” oil or carbon pricing which Joyce has basically said he doesn’t believe in…
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Imagine being able to catch the train to Auckland, change at the station for the run to the airport or britomart, then jump on the train back home?
Or even being able to have an alternative to flying or driving between cities…
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It seems a bit of a shame then; I was sent to study the new rail networks in the US to evaluate applications for Australia – and I can report that a good efficient Rail service is the way those two countries have gone – and they’re mighty impressive too!
It is certainly the way I would like to get about – and when one looks at the tragic Easter Road Toll – the congestion etc. rail would seem a sound and sensible investment in our travelling future.
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There is an intercity train (the wellington one) but it doesnt make many stops, costs alot, is infrequent and doesnt connect to britomart etc.
The other thing thats odd about NZ rail, is why are they manually ticketing? Surely an electronic ticket vending machine system with turnstiles like Oz would be a good investment considering all the money they must spend on staff.
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a little obtuse perhaps but over the weekend I discovered Bryce Courtenay’s ode to aussi Bob Brown (yes that Bob Brown.. clued also with the plight/rights of corrobee frogs).. and lo and behold at reading the above I am left wondering what kind of story Douglas Adams would have made of the recently newsed somali oil-tanker hijack…
Tho not so much an aside, anyone care to figure how much that particular USD240mn will put on the price of gasoline in enzed..? but don’t make too much noise about this will you.. hedgies luv any excuses whatsoever to play their games with us (petrol) punters..
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^ I like that plan, but seems maybe a little too hard to make. Would be great if they made it, for sure. Looks a bit like sydney’s in complexity.
I also like the green’s plan. Loops are really convinient to travel with, and theyve planned it all based on three loops. Pretty cool.
Their plan is here…
http://transportblog.co.nz/2009/09/19/aucklands-rail-system-in-2030-2050/
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Jarbury plan is very possible, all lines are within existing SH corridors or space reserved for transport… Just takes the political will…
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All lines except a Howick/Botany Line really would be relatively easy I think. While a line out to east Auckland would obviously be very expensive (as extensive tunnelling may be necessary), I think it is extremely necessary and would be very popular. A train trip from Botany to Britomart could take as little as half an hour – compared to driving time of well over an hour at peak times.
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The Southerner carried on average 50 people a day when it was cancelled. A train only consumes less fuel (and produces less emissions) per passenger than a bus if it carries the equivalent of three or more busloads.
So yet again there is the “trains are good” faith based belief when in fact the density of travel isn’t remotely close to what is adequate for intercity service between Christchurch and Dunedin. There are competing, efficient and non-subsidised bus and shuttle services offering great value for money, the rest of people either drive and a few fly because of time.
The road is not congested, there is no environmental argument that bears close scrutiny so why bother unless it can make a financial return?
Don’t misuse words like “investment” when it is about spending other people’s money and not getting any net benefits for what you spend.
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jarbury,
Do you live in Auckland?
In peak traffic the trip from Botany to the CBD would at peak time be 30 minutes. All in the comfort and personal freedom of you own car.
If you had your radio on and heard the southern motorway was blocked, a quick trip through Panmure, Glen Innes, St Helliers and along the waterfront could easily be done in 30 minutes as well.
Yesterday going home there was an oil spill on the Southern motorway (blocked from Harbour Bridge to Takanini). Coming from the North Shore I took the spagetti junction loop around to North Western motorway, at St Lukes, took the great North Road to the new North Eastern motorway and was safely home in South Auckland within 35 minutes.
Lets not get too carried away with the “well over an hour” trip discriptions. (two hours to get to the CBD? Rubbish – even the back way through Newmarket, Parnell would be less then 40 minutes)
So as soon as the North Eastern Motorway (SH20 to most people) joins the Southern Motorway (completion in a few months) with the North Western (when the waterview tunnel is built) we will have alternative routes to ease the flow when an unforeseen oil spill blocks one artery.
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libertyscott said:
“A train only consumes less fuel (and produces less emissions) per passenger than a bus if it carries the equivalent of three or more busloads.”
That would depend on the makeup of the train. It is probably true if the train is comprised of 8 or so carriages and a luggage van and is pulled by an engine with enough weight and power to pull the same again. It probably isn’t true if the train is comprised of a couple of self-propelled railcars.
Trevor.
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@Gerrit and how long were the trips of those stuck in congestion on the Southern Motorway..?
When planning a transport system as a whole you have to look at the average travel time of all users not just those who are flexible, have a radio and know the city well…
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Jeremy,
Dont know. Be mindful that you cannot plan so that when a major event occurs like an oil spill that traffic still flows at its normal pattern. That is totally unrealistic (still the 10 lane wide motorway that coped with the oil spill traffic would be good during normal hours!).
Dont have a radio!!!! Arent 99.99999% of cars fitted with one?
If you are listening to an ipod, mp3 player etc. then no you wont get traffic. I lock on Hauraki and just go with the flow.
I also look on the traffic web site for Auckland to see where the congestion is before I leave home or work.
You dont need to know the city that well. Drove all around Sydney and Melbourne using a Navman. Excellent for driving around places you dont know well at all (and if you programme it to avoid free and toll ways, you get to see parts of the city you never knew existed).
The best programmed ones ones will divert you away from congestion, notify you of hold ups, and generally save you money and time.
At around $500 a pop well worth the savings in pertrol (just dont leave it in the car in South Auckland!!).
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Ha ha, yeah I should have said those listening to CDs, my point is a rail system is independent of the roading system and a (well run) rail system can provide carrying capacity and speeds cars can only dream of… In a part of the city that is one of the most car dominated (East Auckland) building a rail line is a no brainer…
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Jeremy,
Tell that to the Wellington commutors who have had bad service for a while. The rail system is not immune from holdups, breakdowns, congestion, etc.
At least on roads there are alternatives. You get the rail from A to B and if the line is blocked then getting back to A from B may be as problematic as the road options.
Neither system is perfect.
Biggest problem for me to use public transprt would be this.
1. Wait and catch a local bus at the end of the street to take me to Manurewa rail station
2. Wait for train to take me to Britomart.
3. Wait for bus to take me Takapuna bus tranfer station.
4. Wait for local bus to take me to Northcote shopping centre.
5. Walk three kilometres to my factory.
Reverse to go home.
Or I can take a car.
Option for 99% of Aucklanders is the car because public transport does not suit their individual requirements. Notice that during the school holidays there is at least 30 to 40% less traffic? – be interesting to see all those little people movement on public transport.
But I would suggest that 90% of that individualised dropping kids of at school is impossible to organise using public transport.
Even in cities where there is a first class public transport system, private cars (and delivery vehicles) still need to be catered for.
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Gerrit wrote:
“Biggest problem for me to use public transprt would be this.
1. Wait and catch a local bus at the end of the street to take me to Manurewa rail station
2. Wait for train to take me to Britomart.
3. Wait for bus to take me Takapuna bus tranfer station.
4. Wait for local bus to take me to Northcote shopping centre.
5. Walk three kilometres to my factory.
Reverse to go home.”
It’s very difficult to design a good transport system for people who choose to live on the opposite side of a large city from where they work. The transport system doesn’t work well for people who live in Kaikoura and work in Whanganui either, but that’s not the fault of the transport system…
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Of course private vehicles need to be catered for, I am fond of saying: “1 car per family = an economic miracle, 4 cars per family = an economic disaster” Auckland is currently the latter but we weren’t always, as late as 1954 over 66% of trips were made by foot, bicycle or public transport, Auckland was one of the Anglo-world leaders in PT and there is no reason we cannot be again by following some simple evidence borne PT rules…
I would suggest to you that Wellington’s rail problems (and Auckland’s for that matter) are the result of decades of under-investment in the rail system if they had had a fraction of the money spent on the road network over even the last 20 years we would not be having these problems now and they would be much more attractive, lowering vehicle congestion…
You are not unusal in your commute and one of the reasons public transport has been abandonded so readily throughout much of the US, Canada, UK, Australia and NZ is because it is hard and because it is easier as a politician to divest yourself of the responsibility and accountability for it by supporting car based transport, but the very reason it hard means it is also so valueable (like a lot of things in life), a city with great PT is far superior for people and business…
How could your commute be improved via PT to be superior to that of using your car..?
- Introduce a integrated card that you can use on all forms of PT (such as London, HK etc)…
- Introduce a flat fare that you paid, say, $3 for and it would entitle you to use any form of PT for 2 hours (such as NY)…
- I’d advise you not to use rail at all given where you work…
- Introduce through routing, so all services don’t end in the CBD by combining an existing Manurewa service and Busway service…
- Catch a through routed bus from bus from Manurewa to the CBD over the bridge continuing onto the busway…
- Introduce a service that caters to the factory works in your industrial park and has been planned to connect to buses when the arrive at the busway station…
If the system Auckland wide was planned in ways similiar to the above people would eagerly take up PT again as Auckland wide congestion would greatly be relieved and together we’d get around faster, the city would also change quite quickly, for example Melbourne has been able to double the percentage of jobs in their CBD over the last 10 years making PT all the more viable again…
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Jeremy,
As a sole trader I need my car not just to and from work but also during work to see customers, pick up raw materials, drop off finished goods, provide quotations, etc.
Just out of interest, and to prove that Jarbury is sprouting urban myths regarding time taken to traverse Auckland by car in rush hour.
Did the 29 kilometers from Northcote to Manurewa (door to door) in 42 minutes. 5.30pm leaving Northcote.
This on a Friday night when people are rushing out of Auckland. And includes the 70 km construction zones from the harbour bridge to Ellerlie and another from Manukau to Manurewa.
How the much shorter route from Botany (via Highbrook?) to the CBD according to jarbury can take “well over an hour” is beyond me.
Here is a tip for you. When the motorway is congested use the inside (slow) lane. Traffic moves much faster in this lane then the outer two lanes. Possible due to the filtering light systems in place on the motorway on ramps. Psst, Dont tell anyone though as now the inside lane will get clogged as well.
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kahikatea
Be interesting to find the actual number of commutors that would use public transport. I would suggest that it would be fwever then 15% who would favour PT over private.
Dollar wise it is still cheaper for me to buy the petrol (about $4000 per year, GST and tax deductable) then to relocate either my business or my residence closer to each other.
My business is where my customers are. My residence is in South Auckland because I like it there. I dont like the North Shore. No sense of community like we have in South Auckland.
And to buy the same housing standard I have here would require at least another morgage of around $200,000. Being debt free currently, I dont want to take on higher debt just to save a few dollars on petrol.
In summary I wont ever be a PT user. Ah, maybe when I retire but then I wont be living in Auckland.
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Well Gerrit, then I invite you to become one of us PT and active modes advocates greatest supporters as it is exactly you who will benefit most from reduced congestion by implementing the types of systems as I suggest above…
Congestion is costing the Auckland economy $1 billion a year precisely because people like yourself who have to operate a vehicle for their job and are using their car to be economically prodcutive are being held up by those who aren’t and don’t have any other option…
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Jeremy,
Thanks for the offer but no, I wont.
That is another urban myth unsubstanciated by research. Where are the figures and who derived them?
One has to be careful not to fall under the spell of urban myths (like a car journey from Botany to the CBD “takes way more then an hour”).
Be careful not to sound like an ACT party advert
http://www.act.org.nz/news/removing-the-roadblocks-aucklands-transport-nightmare
that is so full of unproven expenses on Auckland road transport as to be fully unbelieveable. It simply does not pass the DIMS (Does it Make Sense) test.
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I guess there is no chance of changing some people’s minds…
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Just think – if the Japanese had invaded NZ in WW2, would we also have a world class rail system.
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I should have checked back here earlier. So many responses to make.
Gerritt, no I don’t travel in that part of Auckland (out east) at peak hour very often, but I am going off what people have told me. Are your times lower than usual because it’s school holidays at the moment? I suspect so.
I agree with you about the unsubstantiated “congestion costs us a billion a year” myth. Most trips are taken outside of work time so therefore most of the time savings if there was somehow no congestion at all would simply give people more spare time. Now that’s great, but if the government really wants to spend billions of dollars giving us more spare time they’d be better off buying each household in Auckland a dish-washer.
Gerrit, for your commute I agree that public transport doesn’t make that much sense – particularly you need your car when you’re at work. However, wouldn’t things be much better for you if lots of other people were using public transport for their suburb-CBD trips or their suburb-business node (Takapuna, Manukau, New Lynn etc.) trips? Theoretically the motorway would be less congested and your trip would be faster.
Actually a fairly significantly higher proportion of Aucklanders use public transport than that. Around 48% of people entering the CBD area each day do so via public transport. If we got that up to 75% imagine how much less congested our roads would be? School holidays reduce traffic not only because of fewer “dropping the kids off at school” trips, but also because many parents take time off work during holidays or work from home while looking after the kids. Walking buses seem to be a growing trend to reduce school-related traffic.
Genji, ha – very true!
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Jarbury,
You would need to quantify the Botany to CBD journey a bit better. Is it door to door and does it include trying to find a car park in the CBD and is it at a time when the day workers are leaving and the night workers are arriving?
I can understand if it included the car parking and trip on foot to destination.
Strangely enough traffic going into the city is much worse at night then during the morning so your PT commuting figures could be accurate.
Question is why are so many people heading towards the CBD at 5-6pm (and how many of those are East Tamaki workers going home to points north?
Does PT not cater for the night time employee? (cooks, cleaners, bottle washers, etc.)
Yes, school holidays do make a huge difference but the times I’ve quoted are generally in the ball park. Note I dont leave Manurewa till 9am and normally dont go home till 5.30pm, so I miss the mummies dropping their darlings at school.
I would say that if I had to work in the CBD (and heaven forbid I would even contemplate it) that PT would be the preferred option. Simply from a car parking affordability angle.
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Gerrit, my estimate is based on the idea of someone living near Botany Town Centre and working/studying in the CBD. Britomart to Glen Innes is 9km and the train does it in 13 minutes. Glen Innes to Botany is another 9km, so I anticipate another 13 minutes. That gives us a rough estimate of around 26 minutes from Botany to Britomart. Of course you have to consider time taken on a feeder bus/walk to the train stations (at both ends). But at the same time you need to consider time taken to find a parking space etc.
In terms of the “counter-peak” commute, I think that is largely the result of a lot of people working in East Tamaki/Ellserlie/Penrose who live in Waitakere/North Shore or north/west parts of Auckland City. Generally the southern motorway is pretty nasty in both directions in the PM peak – but perhaps worst northbound (particularly in the Mt Wellington-Greenlane area).
I did a blog post recently on Auckland’s commuting patterns that you might find interesting reading: http://transportblog.co.nz/2010/04/03/aucklands-commuting-patterns/
Generally it seems as though most people either work in the same part of Auckland as they live, or they work somewhere in Auckland City. Relatively few people make Waitakere-Manukau, North Shore-Manukau or vice versa commutes.
To me, that says that if we want to make public transport more useful to people, we need to make it more useful to trips within local areas (most probably through better local bus services and not wastefully sending all buses to the CBD) as well as better radial services – not just into the CBD but into other employment nodes within Auckland City.
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“In peak traffic the trip from Botany to the CBD would at peak time be 30 minutes. All in the comfort and personal freedom of you own car.”
Gerrit, in what universe? I come from out that way, and I can tell you right now that you would be lucky to be able to do Botany to the CBD in half an hour during the off-peak, let alone during peak hour.
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jarbury,
Good web site. very informative, though would like to see the research behind the figures. Especially those actually working in Auckland City.
Where is the Auckland City boundary? You have 100,000 people working in Auckland City (CBD?). Seems way to high.
john-ston
I frequently pick up raw materials from three suppliers in East Tamaki.
Run from the suppliers (all just along Allens Road, just a skip from Botany town centre) into the city (well Nelson Street off ramp) is never more than 30 minutes for me. About the same as you.
But if you lived out the back say near Barry Curtis Park you would have a bit of a run to either the Manukau or Highbrook southern motorway on ramps.
If you lived in the old part of Otara the back way past the Otahuhu power station and onto the Highbrook motorway on ramp is a better option then trying to get on at Papatoetoe.
Note that my time comment was directed initially at Jarbury for his “well over an hour” comment on a commute from Botany to the CBD. “Well over an hour” is a minumum 90 minutes and max 120 in my reckoning.
Have you ever done a timed run going though Panmure, Glenn Innes and the waterfront? You may be suprised.
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Gerritt, that data is from the census. The Auckland City boundary is the boundary of the area administered by Auckland City Council.
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Jarbury,
Still seems high. How does the research take into consideration the new employement areas such as Albany and East Tamaki and Manukau City?
How up to date is it?
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2006 census data, so getting slightly out of date I would agree.
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liberty, the rail connection between Chch and Dunedin had little investment for decades. Compare this to SH1 which is almost 4 lanes from Chch to Timaru now, upgraded for trucks, paid for by taxpayers. The last time I caught the train to Dunedin (approx 2001) it was slower than it used to be in the 1970s – such was the deterioration of the track.
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Liberty, one also needs to plan for the future. What will happen as the price of oil rises? The optimists tell us there will be a replacement fuel or electric vehicles. Thats good if it works out … but maybe its safer to invest in trains and other types of public transport in case an affordable replacement for the petrol car doesn’t eventuate? Otherwise we could really be up the proverbial creek without a paddle.
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“Run from the suppliers (all just along Allens Road, just a skip from Botany town centre) into the city (well Nelson Street off ramp) is never more than 30 minutes for me. About the same as you.”
Not really just a skip from Botany Town Centre; Allens Road has the advantage of proximity to the Highbrook Interchange, as well as the lack of traffic lights to impede access. If one is going from the area around Botany Town Centre, then you have half a million traffic lights along Ti Rakau Drive to negotiate, as well as the South Eastern Arterial, before one can finally enter the (congested in peak hour) motorway.
“Have you ever done a timed run going though Panmure, Glenn Innes and the waterfront? You may be suprised.”
I haven’t done a timed run, but I have done a few runs. Even then, to get from Auckland to Panmure in less than twenty minutes even during the off-peak is a matter of luck
“Still seems high.”
Not really, you have to remember that there are a further 100,000 to 150,000 jobs in the area around the CBD (Parnell, Newmarket, Mount Eden, Newton), and then there are about 20,000 jobs in Onehunga, and goodness knows how many more in Mount Wellington/Penrose.
If you take the 41,000 who commute from Manukau City through to Auckland City, I would guess that most of them are going to the likes of Mount Wellington/Penrose and Onehunga.
“liberty, the rail connection between Chch and Dunedin had little investment for decades. Compare this to SH1 which is almost 4 lanes from Chch to Timaru now, upgraded for trucks, paid for by taxpayers.”
One of the problems with upgrading that part of the Main South Line is the area between Oamaru and Dunedin – the grades are a killer and the associated curves are a big problem. Upgrading that line will cost several hundred million and there aren’t that many trains that use the Main South Line anymore.
In saying that, it wouldn’t take much to upgrade Christchurch to Oamaru due to the relative straightness of the alignment, but again everything comes down to freight traffic – there isn’t that much that is railable freight.
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john-ston,
This mornings door to door run from Manurewa to Northcote was 43 minutes. Congestion at the eastern corridor junction with the southern so a slow run. Wonder if they ever plan to widen the Mt Wellington motorway bridges from 2 to 4 lanes. That is such a choke point.
I think that the point you raise about actually getting to a motorway is most important. People blame slow traffic flow and congestion on the motorways while they “forget” about the time it takes to actually get onto a motorway. I cant imagine how bad it must be for people in Howick to get to the city. Maybe the eastern motorway needs to be built?
Traffic light phasing should be introduced.
With the new Manukau interchange about to be completed, the traffic flow from South to Onehunga, Penrose, One tree Hill, etc. will have a faster route and ease congestion from the southern.
And once the four laning of the Mangere Bridges is complete a fast trip into the CBD from south may well be using the southeastern motorway, getting off at Hillboruogh, Mt Roskill, etc and getting the Manukau Road or Dominion Road arteries in the CBD, Kingland, Mt Eden, etc.
Notice the route taxis take from the CBD to the airport? Off at Newmarket, Manukau Road to Onehunge and the south eastern to the airport. Quick route but how many people use it or know about it?
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“Wonder if they ever plan to widen the Mt Wellington motorway bridges from 2 to 4 lanes. That is such a choke point.”
The NZTA has specifically held off on this as it would flood the CMJ with cars, they know it and have held off purposefully… There are no current plans to widen these bridge as far as I’m aware.
“Maybe the eastern motorway needs to be built?”
New transport infrastructure induces more users, as East Auckland has no RTN standard infrastructure and no quality transport designation (apart from the Te Irirangi median), a rail line should be built first due to it’s smaller footprint and higher capacity…
“Notice the route taxis take from the CBD to the airport? Off at Newmarket, Manukau Road to Onehunge and the south eastern to the airport. Quick route but how many people use it or know about it?”
Many, many people do, it is even signposted as the route to the Airport…
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Jeremy,
What influence does the choke point at Mt Wellington have on the CMJ (Spagetti Junction). Absolutely none.
Traffic in the inside lane on the Mt Wellingtion bridge simply divides into the inside two lanes once it passes the choke point and by 200 metres past the bridges it is bumper to bumper again.
Simply does not pass the DIMS test.
And as a choke point for the east aterial to southern junction it is a complete failure as well.
The easter arterial / southern junction is a dogs breakfast. The on ramp is only controlled for single occupant cars. All trucks, vans, dual occupancy cars get to drive on to the southern without the traffic control lights.
Again does not pass te DIMS test to have 50% of traffic uncontrolled going onto the motorway using ramps that converge into the inside southern motorway just metres from each other.
Stupidity that. Why bother with trying to control the traffic flow onto the motorway if 50% are uncontrolled and hitting the motorway just metres (well mayde 100, will have a look tommorrow) past the controlled ones?
Have seen a cop there once but the pure volume coming onto the uncontrolled onramp is such that the lone constable cannot process them all and keep traffic flowing.
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Of course congestion south of the Mt Wellington overbridges affects the CMJ, congestion itself acts as a detterent to infrastructure use, the congestion pushes some of the potential road users onto buses and trains or to look for employment closer to home, a huge number of changes, all of which takes pressure off the CMJ…
Vancouver is evidence of this, their 1970s transport plan actively used congestion of private vehicles as a strategy to speed up commute times (by encouraging people to use transit) and it worked, Vancouver is the only Canadian city to have falling commute times at Canada’s last census…
Many things in transport work that don’t seem to pass the “DIMS” test… Mainly because people travelling down transport corridors behave like shaved chimpanzees moving tons of steel, rather than water flowing down a pipe…
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Jeremy,
We need to use what we have, not what we dream about. Auckland does not have a PT transit system and simply trying to push people into a non existing system is a folly.
Build the PT transit first before trying to congest the people onto PT.
The roading infastructure currently being built, (Mangere, Newmarket, Victoria, Manukau, Onehunga, Waterview, Greenhithe, etc.) will ensure at least the roading system works for Aucklanders into the future.
Forcing people onto non existing PT systems is not going to achieve diddle squat but block the only “pipe” available.
Somewhere there needs to be an organised transition from one to the other. Not crowd one out before another option is available.
The PT system needs to be in place (was it in Vancouver?) before and transition from road to PT.
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“Maybe the eastern motorway needs to be built?”
To be honest, I don’t think that the Eastern Motorway needs to be built – we just need to see improvements to Ti Rakau Drive along the lines of what has been proposed as part of the AMETI proposal. I think one of the main issues is that when Pakuranga was subdivided in the 1960s that no-one seriously thought that Ti Rakau Drive was going to become a major arterial route and subsequently some poor location decisions were made (not least of which was the location of Edgewater College).
If we improved Ti Rakau Drive to the extent that we didn’t need as many traffic lights and allowed for possibly 70km/h speed limits along the entire stretch of road, then we would have a decent quality arterial.
The other problem with bringing back the Eastern Motorway proposal is that it needs to be all or nothing – we couldn’t have a motorway merely servicing the Howick-Pakuranga-Botany area; that would just flood the Southern Motorway and cause other problems. Of course, the project in its entirety is not politically feasible, and will soon not be practically feasible either.
“What influence does the choke point at Mt Wellington have on the CMJ (Spagetti Junction). Absolutely none.”
If there was a crossing with four lanes either way, it would – you would end up with another bottleneck somewhere else as you try and cram the four lanes of traffic down to three. Any road (or indeed rail) infrastructure is only as good as its weakest point and in the case of the Auckland motorway system, that is Spaghetti Junction.
With three lanes each way though, it might work.
“The easter arterial / southern junction is a dogs breakfast.”
Agreed; there is no east to south link for instance. Indeed, the South-Eastern Arterial is the best example of roading failure in Auckland and it should have either been built properly or not built at all.
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John-ston
Te Irirangi drive bottleneck is the traffic lights plus the decision to allow housing with direct access onto the road (particularly through the old part of Otara). Always was going to be a 50k zone through there.
I was under the understanding that the medium strip was for rail access to Botany, Howick. The Manukau spurline could quite easily be extended under the motorway and the old part of Otara and unto the centre strip of Te Irinangi drive.
That would have been a better option then reinstating the Onehunga line. (the Onehunga line will always be a dead end until it can loop around to Avondale like it was designed to do back in the 1920′s (I think).
And forget about an airport link from Onehunga. Grade to get over the Manukau will be too steep (tunnel is an option I suppose). And having passengers from ther CBD transferring at Penrose for the airport is not a good option. Should be a direct line via Puhinui.
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Vancouver had a comphrensive plan to increase mixed use development buildings, reduce building motorways, allow congestion of private vehicles to increase, steadily increase PT services and PT infrastructure and invest in walking and cycling… Once we finish the WRR it is time for Auckland to stop building motorways and start investing in a proper PT network… It is a myth you can build both at once or have PT in place before restraining road investment…
The median strip was a MCC general reservation for light rail/a busway etc… The ARC is currently talking about building a busway by 2040 in it…
The Onehunga line that is being re-instated was a wharf branch, the designation to the Western Line or the Southdown to Avondale line is a branch off the Soutern line actually crosses the Onehunga Branch line in Te Papapa…
Forgot about an Airport Link from Onehunga..? Please tell the NZTA before they finish the Mangere bridge which has been future proofed for rail to go over it at a cost of many millions of dollars…
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Jeremy
This quote would suggest that you are erronious in your assumption
http://www.aucklandmotorways.co.nz/southwestern/swmangere.html
while there is provision to build a railbridge later, it is not in the existing design and build. Infact they are talking about using the old bridge for a rail bridge!!
If in the very distant future there was ever going to be a canal between the Hauraki and Manukau Harbours the rail bridge (like the current road bridges) will need to be high enough to clear coatal shipping traffic.
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“Te Irirangi drive bottleneck is the traffic lights plus the decision to allow housing with direct access onto the road (particularly through the old part of Otara). Always was going to be a 50k zone through there.”
There is a big difference between Te Irirangi Drive and Ti Rakau Drive – Ti Rakau Drive is 60km/h from Pakuranga Road through to Greenmount Drive when it becomes a 70km/h road through to Chapel Road.
“I was under the understanding that the medium strip was for rail access to Botany, Howick. The Manukau spurline could quite easily be extended under the motorway and the old part of Otara and unto the centre strip of Te Irinangi drive.”
It was designed for a light rail line back at the time when light rail proposals were very popular amongst our local body politicians. In terms of extending the Manukau Spur Line, there are several other issues – not least of which is crossing the Southern Motorway, the at grade intersections as well as the width of the median strip (it is only wide enough for light rail, not heavy rail).
“while there is provision to build a railbridge later, it is not in the existing design and build. Infact they are talking about using the old bridge for a rail bridge”
I am pretty sure that the NZTA had to make allowances for rail access in that corridor – there was an Environment Court ruling some time back in that regard.
“If in the very distant future there was ever going to be a canal between the Hauraki and Manukau Harbours the rail bridge (like the current road bridges) will need to be high enough to clear coatal shipping traffic.”
Gerrit, we are more likely to see a high speed rail line between Auckland and Tauranga than see that canal constructed. Indeed, I would even guess that the Onehunga Wharves might be shut in a decade or two.
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Gerrit, Transit NZ were taken to the environment court about future-proofing the Mangere Bridge for rail. Eventually they relented. I think that site is a bit out of date in that respect.
Regarding the Mt Wellington overbridge, it is effectively acting as a “brake” on the whole network, ensuring that only a certain number of cars can get through per hour – mainly because of the enormous number of vehicles that get on the motorway from the SE Highway. Without the narrow Mt Wellington bridge you would have an absolute disaster at the SE Highway onramp.
In terms of Vancouver, actually their physical PT infrastructure is somewhat surprisingly quite limited. There were just two railway lines (one built in 1987 the other in about 2000) until last year, when a third line was built. Vancouver has just been really clever in how it has shaped its urban form, and it has a brilliant bus network. In terms of “value for money” when it comes to transport, Vancouver is one of the best in the world (note, there is only one main motorway in Vancouver and it doesn’t go anywhere near the CBD).
I don’t think anyone is arguing that we should force people onto a sub-standard PT network. We need to improve the network, but we also need to “rebalance” spending so that we don’t undermine public transport investment by building great big whopping motorways next-door to new railway lines/busways etc.
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“I don’t think anyone is arguing that we should force people onto a sub-standard PT network. We need to improve the network, but we also need to “rebalance” spending so that we don’t undermine public transport investment by building great big whopping motorways next-door to new railway lines/busways etc.”
The question is though whether or not one is going to undermine the public transport investment by also having road investment and in that case, Brisbane is going to be an interesting city to watch in the coming years.
I think we all need to acknowledge that if we are to get rid of congestion once and for all, we are going to need a combined solution with suitable methods being used where they suit; in some cases, this will mean road improvements, in other cases, it will mean public transport improvements.
“Regarding the Mt Wellington overbridge, it is effectively acting as a “brake” on the whole network, ensuring that only a certain number of cars can get through per hour – mainly because of the enormous number of vehicles that get on the motorway from the SE Highway. Without the narrow Mt Wellington bridge you would have an absolute disaster at the SE Highway onramp.”
The problem there is though that you have a road that is going from three lanes in each direction down to two and back up to three again – would it not make more sense to have three lanes right through?
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Yes, Transit NZ was taken to the Environment Court and amended the bridge to include rail line capacity under the roadway (for gradient purposes)… Auckland Motorways is a great site for info about the Motorways but I don’t think the author has an interest in general transport planning as such or the railways…
Vancouver has also got value for money by investing in it’s cycle network 8% of trips are via cycle…
I get the feeling you are a conservative Gerrit..? Who requires a car for work… It makes me sad your not willing to change your mind, our current car dependence is the result of massive government intervention and subsidy, you are the type of person who should be one of PT’s biggest supporters…
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John-ston, I think you’re going to struggle to ever get rid of congestion once and for all. You would have to over-build your system to an enormous extent for just a couple of hours a day. Sounds like a giant waste of money to me.
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Jeremy,
Capacity does not mean actual imlementation. Bit like the triple rail bridge at Ellerlie. Been a three line railbridge since 1950 but never been utilised.
Firstly, I’m not a conservative (but by implication not a liberal either) but a common sense radical that wants the best for the common man. I like frogblog for this type of discussion. the Greens socialist part is so unobtainable that it is not worth a second thought (that should get the Green re-actioneries going).
I believe that unless the private sector is engaged the PT problem will never be answered.
Hence if you want to pin a label on me make it Blue/Green.
Secondly, the government intervention and subsidies for roading are repilicated in PT. Without it PT would be dead in the water.
Thirdly, I’m a great PT fan as found in places like Melbourne and Europe. Had never been been a private car till we came to NZL so know what is possible.
However am realistic enough to realise that a spread out population like Auckland is never going to have the ability (nor funding) to provide the central hub transport system like one would find in Melbourne or many European cities.
Just read the Sydney Morning Herald and see the problems they are experiencing in a 4 million population city like Sydney in providing PT.
So if you are advocating PT do it responsibly and with respect to what is possible. Dont dream of a railink system that radiates from a central hub like Melbourne, Adelaide or Perth. Auckland does not revolve around a central hub. Nor do many people want to travel to the central hub. It is much more like Sydney.
And that is the conundrum for Auckland.
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“John-ston, I think you’re going to struggle to ever get rid of congestion once and for all. You would have to over-build your system to an enormous extent for just a couple of hours a day. Sounds like a giant waste of money to me.”
We have achieved it once before, and we could achieve it again provided that we use the right solutions to our transport issues.
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“Capacity does not mean actual imlementation. Bit like the triple rail bridge at Ellerlie. Been a three line railbridge since 1950 but never been utilised.”
You sure it was never utilised? Prior to 1959, Ellerslie had a goods yard and the Walpole Street overbridge might have had space for a third track because of that.
“However am realistic enough to realise that a spread out population like Auckland is never going to have the ability (nor funding) to provide the central hub transport system like one would find in Melbourne or many European cities.”
Gerrit, Auckland isn’t that spread out compared with other Australasian cities. Indeed, Brisbane and Perth would have a much tougher time given how low their population densities are, but they do a good job with public transport and in the case of Perth don’t require massive subsidies either.
“Just read the Sydney Morning Herald and see the problems they are experiencing in a 4 million population city like Sydney in providing PT.”
The problems there are largely caused by the fact that few politicians were willing to follow Bradfield’s plan of the 1920s. In the years since, skyscrapers have been built in the way of all but one potential rail corridor. Obviously, Sydney couldn’t heavily rely on buses to pick up the slack because I am pretty sure that there is little room left in the CBD to accommodate buses as well.
“Auckland does not revolve around a central hub. Nor do many people want to travel to the central hub.”
Again, I wouldn’t be too sure on that one. Certainly, when one includes the CBD, Parnell, Newmarket, Newton and Ponsonby, you have about 200,000 jobs in the CBD and immediate surrounding area. Then you also have 50,000 students attending the University of Auckland and the place across Wellesley Street. That is a decent number of people to work with when you are talking about a central hub.
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John-ston,
No, the triple line bridge at Ellerlie was built after the station and spur was closed.
I keep hearing all sorts of figures for how many people work and commute to the CBD.
You say 200,000. Jarbury says 100,000.
And there in lies a big problem. We just dont know how many commute into the CBD and how many to different parts of Auckland.
So how can anyone plan for anything with a 100% (or 50 if going backwards from your 200,000) variation between sets of figures.
And that leaves around 300,000 or 400.000 commuters (depending on whose figures are correct)uncatered for as they dont travel to the CBD.
Interestingly, (seeing Brisbane is often held up as a shinning example of PT nirvanna, not) family friends just booked a holiday at Tweeds Head. It is cheaper to get a falcon rental car at the airport, drive it for a week and return to Brisbane airport then it is to catch a one way PT trip from the Brisbane airport to Coolangata.
What would you rather have. A one way PT trip or a two way rental car for a week.
And last I heard, that concrete 8 and 4 lane motorway south from Brisbane is near Byron Bay. Who needs PT when cars rentals are way cheaper?
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“You say 200,000. Jarbury says 100,000.”
I actually said the CBD and surrounding area; this includes Newmarket, Parnell, Newton and Ponsonby. I haven’t done the exact number crunching, but the figures from the 2006 Census are available on the Statistics website (although they are extremely fine; it would take a considerable amount of effort to get them all added up).
If one strictly talked about the CBD, then we would have about 100,000 jobs.
“And that leaves around 300,000 or 400.000 commuters (depending on whose figures are correct)uncatered for as they dont travel to the CBD.”
Those workers aren’t so much of an issue though; for instance, 340,000 Aucklanders live and work in the same local body area and so aren’t going to be the ones creating that much congestion.
“Interestingly, (seeing Brisbane is often held up as a shinning example of PT nirvanna, not) family friends just booked a holiday at Tweeds Head. It is cheaper to get a falcon rental car at the airport, drive it for a week and return to Brisbane airport then it is to catch a one way PT trip from the Brisbane airport to Coolangata.”
How many people were in that group? Certainly the one-way fare is pretty steep but I cannot imagine that it would be that steep.
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Oh Gerrit, ye of so little faith…
Auckland can’t have a large CBD with central focused employment..? This post I have done recently might hopefully dispel you of that myth:
http://transportblog.co.nz/2010/04/12/la-and-auckland-shared-histories/
It is interesting that you use Melbourne as an example, as Melbourne has doubled it’s CBD job share over the last 10 years, by making the CBD a more attractive place to go through streetscape investment and as a carry over of building their CBD rail tunnel a couple of decades ago…
“However am realistic enough to realise that a spread out population like Auckland is never going to have the ability (nor funding) to provide the central hub transport system like one would find in Melbourne or many European cities.”
This is simply not true, it has been a myth that has been around so long now the general population actually believes it… Auckland is not a particularly spread out city, the volcanic cones, rainforest out West and mainly the ocean has constrained our development too much for that… A recent OECD report stated that of the 50 largest cities in the US, Canada, Australia and NZ, Auckland had the 8th highest density… The next point is density has little to do with the quality of PT that can be provided, don’t get me wrong higher density helps and we should aim for it but overwhelmingly more important is transport policy, having a single controlling organisation and transport infrastructure…
” the government intervention and subsidies for roading are repilicated in PT. Without it PT would be dead in the water.”
No way near to the same extent, just look at a graph comparing PT infrastructure spend and roading spend, car dominance in Auckland is artifical and very, very bad for us…
Not meaning this in a snippy way but just because you can’t imagine an Auckland where PT transport, walking and cycling is easier, faster and cheaper that private vehicle transport for the majority of trips doesn’t mean it isn’t very achievable…
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