by frog
The current media attention on whaling provides still more evidence that the claim of ‘scientific research’ is a lie.
Protestors are brandishing cans of whale meat outside the NZ embassy in Tokyo and there’s whale sushi for sale in Los Angeles.
It is a timely reminder that this is a debate about killing whales for their meat – always has been – and there’s universal agreement on that.
But what’s not clear is the best way to stop the practice in the Southern Ocean.
Call it what it is – commercial whaling – and try to control that trade as Geoffrey Palmer advocates? Or back a ban on whale hunting and bring to bear the weight of the international courts?
To support the Palmer position you have to believe it would work, first reducing the number of whales killed and then leading to total protection.
However Japan has shown through its cynical use of the “scientific” provision that it cannot be trusted to honour agreements on whaling.
In light of Japan’s behaviour, opening the door to commercial whaling and expecting to close it gradually is naïve. A more likely result is that Japan will push it wide open into our faces.
With due respect to Sir Geoff’s diligence and good intentions, we disagree about the best way to the goal.
There’s not much room for nuanced debate in the mainstream media so when you say you’re against a compromise, you risk being painted as intransigent and impractical. But arguably it is the compromise that’s impractical.
Metiria has stated the Greens position below and will offer a whaling op-ed to the major dailies soon to give the argument a fuller airing- will any of them pick it up?
Metiria has a facebook group about whaling, for those that are that way inclined.
Published in Environment & Resource Management | Featured by frog on Fri, March 12th, 2010
Tags: geoffrey palmer, southern ocean, whaling
on the trolls and those who are unable to keep on topic
Like or Dislike:
3 
0 (+3)
Meanwhile, our Ninja Govt. is doing sfa.
Like or Dislike:
4 
0 (+4)
I see a rusty garden fork and David Farrar.
Like or Dislike:
4 
0 (+4)
Oh, the Hugh Manatee!
Like or Dislike:
2 
0 (+2)
Like or Dislike:
3 
0 (+3)
Most NZ’ers would be opposed to commercial whaling, not only in the Southern Ocean but worldwide.
Successive NZ Governments have tried hard diplomatically for this goal.
No government can support the criminal actions of Bethune, Sea Shepard & Co because quite simply governments cannot support criminal actions.
The present Gov. is trying a different tact. It may work or it may not work. If it does work it will the gradual decline and eventually the end of whale slaughter. That must be good for the whale and the feelgooders.
Given that diplomacy hasn’t worked, the current tact might not work, governments cannot condone criminality – how does the NZ Green Party propose to stop the slaughter?
Like or Dislike:
0 
3 (-3)
“If it does work it will the gradual decline and eventually the end of whale slaughter.”
You are dreaming, pentwig. Those who hunt and harpoon whales for food now now are hardly likely to reduce or stop doing so, simply because a country that opposes the killing of whales decides to support the killing of whales.
There may be some logic in your view, but it’s well disguised as naivety.
Like or Dislike:
2 
0 (+2)
(ahem..!..)..i hate to be school-teacher-ish here..
but shouldn’t it be ‘naivete’..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Like or Dislike:
1 
0 (+1)
*blush*
My ‘spelling naiveté ‘ is showing!
Like or Dislike:
1 
0 (+1)
naïveté
Like or Dislike:
1 
0 (+1)
Greenfly
What is the answer then?
Diplomacy: out
Gradual reduction: out
Criminal activity: out
It is all very well to poo-hoo endeavour, but it is rather shallow when you do not have an alternative.
Like or Dislike:
2 
0 (+2)
“The Japanese are acting illegally by slaughtering whales in increasingly high numbers for commercial purposes, while pretending it is just research.”
Good for you Metiria.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1003/S00190.htm
Like or Dislike:
2 
0 (+2)
Paleeeeze!
Key is not attempting to end the slaughtering of whales in the southern oceans through this latest ‘endeavour’. He is securing a future trade position with Japan and to do so, is willing to reverse New Zealand’s position on commercial whaling, without the support of the people of New Zealand. Complete reversal. Zero mandate. There is nothing shallow about calling that wrong (poo-hooing, as you call it! Poo-hooing? Thought you were my Grandma for a moment!)
Key and his National Party associates do not work from a basis of environmental protection and animal ‘rights’. His decisions are largely driven by economic considerations, which may have served him well as a money changer, but when his decisions affect sentient beings such as whales, I hear alarm bells ringing.
Like or Dislike:
3 
0 (+3)
Thar she …
http://www.imperatorfish.com/2010/03/sensible-whaling-trust-congratulates.html
Like or Dislike:
1 
0 (+1)
If it’s wrong, it’s wrong! Go Metiria!
Like or Dislike:
3 
0 (+3)
Greenfly
You disappoint me.
Give me an alternative. Please!!
Like or Dislike:
0 
2 (-2)
pentwig – the sublety of my argument was lost on you.
Nevermind.
New Zealand should maintain its opposition to the cruel slaughter of whales.
The efforts to date have not been worthless. They have helped to shape the whalers activities and have shown that there are countries/populations/cultures that do not agree with the killing of whales. Abandoning that stance will be a major setback to the eventual aim of zero whaling for commercial purposes.
The alternative to supporting the harpooning of whales that you seek, is to not harpoon whales. Easy. Hold fast to your beliefs. Don’t be fooled by the misleading talk of ‘compromise’ and ‘incremental gain’, those honeyed proposals will not result in benefit to the whales. My concern is for them, not our economy, trade deals, inter-national favours or obligations.
Who are you fighting for?
Like or Dislike:
2 
0 (+2)
Actually sprout, that would be good, wouldn’t it?
It doesn’t match the whale issue though, does it?
There is no guarantee at all that the Japanese will reduce and eventually stop, whaling as a result of the ‘deal’ preposed by Key.
Why, given that they are willing now to break the deal over commercial whaling, would they hold to a new one?
Like or Dislike:
2 
0 (+2)
Greenfly
“The alternative to supporting the harpooning of whales that you seek, is to not harpoon whales. Easy.”
Okay it is easy.
Tell me how easy. Tell me the green party stategy of how to stop the slaughter of whales.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
pentwig – you clamour unendingly for a solution to the slaughter of whales.
Do you oppose the slaughter of whales?
Are you against the harpooning of whales?
Do you think it is cruel to hunt and kill whales?
Before I bother to describe my thoughts on how the cessation of whaling can be achieved, I need to know that you oppose whaling, as I do. If you do not and are comfortable with the killing of whales for commercial reasons, then my advice will be rejected by you because you don’t believe as I do.
NOT harpooning whales, btw, is easy.
I do it every day.
How do you struggle with that concept?
Like or Dislike:
2 
0 (+2)
Pentwig – your list:
Diplomacy: out
Gradual reduction: out
Criminal activity: out
is nonsense as far as I am concerned.
If you can show where I’ve rejected diplomacy or gradual reduction, then go ahead.
As for ‘criminal activity’, while a Government can’t condone such activity … Hang on!! Weren’t the Japanese whalers illegally whaling for commercial reasons??
Has the Japanese Government dealt accordingly with it’s whaling industry in that regard?
Doesn’t seem as though they’d be trustworthy to make a deal with, to me.
Criminal activity by individuals is their the result of their own choosing and there are consequences for that.
Like or Dislike:
1 
0 (+1)
I haven’t harpooned a whale in ages, probably has something to do with never seeing one!!!
Like or Dislike:
1 
0 (+1)
That’s a pity Shunda. There were Orca in our bay last month. I’ve seen pilot whales in the waves further around the bay and there have been a number of Right whales sighted over the past two years, off beaches we walk on regularly. Each time I’ve seen whales, I’ve managed to stay my throwing arm.
Like or Dislike:
2 
0 (+2)
Does anyone know who it is that is eating whale and why they do so?
Is it just the wealthy in Japan or your average consumer and/or visiting politician. Is it just men?
How do the young people in Japan feel about the issue? What’s your average whale worth on the market floor? (NZ dollars)
Do Japanese tourists come to New Zealand and avoid whale-watching trips or do they go on them and change their minds/lick their lips?
The more we understand why whales are being killed the closer we are to changing the practice.
I think that traditions can be hard to let go …….educate the young.
Like or Dislike:
1 
0 (+1)
“Each time I’ve seen whales, I’ve managed to stay my throwing arm.”
You are true nobility greenfly, the temptation to kill such magnificent creatures can only be resisted by those of the purest character.
The rest of us must follow our primal urges to conquer and kill everything that comes our way or is growing in our way, the bigger the better!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Perhaps Shunda, the day will come when you are swimming in the ocean and an orca appears at your side and you will have the opportunity to kill one with your bare hands – the challenge for a true man of the world.
I wish the same good fortune upon pentwig.
My advice, get your hands around its throat as quickly as you can and don’t let go.
Like or Dislike:
2 
0 (+2)
Greenfly, I think you missed my point. It would be totally riduculous to phase out capital punishment!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
“Perhaps Shunda, the day will come when you are swimming in the ocean and an orca appears at your side and you will have the opportunity to kill one with your bare hands – the challenge for a true man of the world.”
Ah yes one can but dream.
I hear that their are occasionally Orca in the Bay of islands, just imagine killing one of these beasts there, coming ashore, and then felling a 1500 year old Kauri!
Oh the sense of power and achievement one must gain!! a quickening of the very heart and soul of being a man!!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
sprout – I see your point. Capital punishment is legal in some Godforsaken parts. In this instance, commercial whaling is not and the change proposed would make it so. That’s the difference I’m highlighting.
Though I’m probably foolish for doing so, I can’t help but say that in your analogy, those who were granted a stay of execution thanks to a partial change, would be pretty happy. With the whaling situation, a reduction in the number taken would be of some good (though I don’t trust that would be the case) but not if it formalised, legalised and perpetuated the practice for ever (a likely result of the ‘deal’).
Like or Dislike:
1 
0 (+1)
Greenfly
I am against commercial whaling.
Do I think it cruel to hunt and kill whales? Why only whales? I think it is cruel to hunt and kill any animal but am realistic enough to understand that mankind needs to kill certain animals to survive.
Whether you think my list is nonsense or not is irrevelent, but the list is pertinent.
So now your thoughts on how to achieve the cessation of whaling.
I do realise that it is your thoughts and not Green party policy cause after watching the above video by the co leader, it is clear they have no solution they just oppose it because all whales are beautiful creatures. As stated I think ALL animals are beautiful in their own individual way.
Like or Dislike:
1 
1 (0)
“..mankind needs to kill certain animals to survive..”
um..!..which animals..?..and why.?..exactly..?
(b.t.w..how are you handling your ‘hair-envy’-issues..?..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Like or Dislike:
2 
0 (+2)
It is a long, long list Phil. Just ask the indigenous people of any country.
Like or Dislike:
0 
2 (-2)
yeah..and we all lived in mud huts..once..
so..that’s yr case for the institutionalised ‘farming’/eating of animals..?
..’cos ‘indigenous-people’ used to do it..?
i repeat my question:
“..um..!..which animals..?..and why.?..exactly..?..”
like..here..now..eh..?
(and no ‘answer’ on the hair-envy-question..?
y’know the only reason i have a full head of luxuriantly-thick hair..(think homer simpson in that episode where he used the hair-restorer)..
is ‘cos i’m a vegan..eh..?
(i’ve also been told that going vegan will also make the hairless hairy again..
whoar..!
eh..?..)
anyway..back to the question you have not yet answered..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Pentwig – do you believe it is necessary to kill whales in the southern oceans in order for the Japanese to survive?
Seems you do and I can see then why you are willing to support a deal that legitimizes the killing of whales.
I don’t share your belief.
Your list, btw, is a nonsense only in that you imply that I discount those processes. Can you find somewhere, anywhere that I’ve said I reject diplomacy or gradual reduction as useful processes? (please cut and paste for clarity).
Like or Dislike:
1 
0 (+1)
Greenfly
” Can you find somewhere, anywhere that I’ve said I reject diplomacy or gradual reduction as useful processes? (please cut and paste for clarity).”
Can you show where I have made that accusation against you personally?
I have given my thoughts on commercial whaling twice now so stop the semantics and give your promised thoughts.
@phil
Now you are being naive or ignorant or both.
Like or Dislike:
0 
1 (-1)
I note also, pentwig, that you only give a ‘might work’ rating to Key’s plan.
Might ?
That’s not good enough.
Like or Dislike:
2 
0 (+2)
Greenfly
So I take it that you oppose whaling but have no clue how to stop it.
Okay then.
Like or Dislike:
0 
1 (-1)
and you still can’t backup yr assertion/nonsense that ‘we need to kill animals to survive’..
eh..?
yr silence speaks volumes..
..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Okay Phil
Just to help you out. Think Artic Circle ( for fuel, clothing and nutrition). Think Australia (Aboriginal) for same reason. Think most of Africa for same reason. Think of South America for same reason.
Now you do your research from there.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
i said..’here..now’..
..us..
what don’t you understand about that..?
y’know..!..just standing up and going..’look..!..aborigines..!’..
isn’t doing yr case much good at all..eh..?
you just seem..by yr avoidance..to be conceding the accuracy of my query..
eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
b.t.w..pent-’wig’..
you seem to suffer from that common rightwing affliction..
the sense of humour byepass..?
‘go vegan.!..get hair..!’
eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Like or Dislike:
1 
0 (+1)
To demand that I propose a better plan is a ploy from you to avoid the central issue – that Key’s plan is unacceptable.
The whales of the southern oceans are not needed as food by anyone. Hungrilly desired, maybe, but not needed.
The post above describes the situation thus:
Call it what it is – commercial whaling – and try to control that trade as Geoffrey Palmer advocates? Or back a ban on whale hunting and bring to bear the weight of the international courts?
Clearly, I back the latter action and oppose the former.
In saying that, I’m aware that the Greens view on cannabis reform takes the opposite view – regulate, rather than ban. The difference is that once commercial whaling is legalised, there will be no opportunity for that decision to be rolled back. As well, the lives of sentient creatures are at steak here (pun intended), so it’s no idle debate to be trifled with.
You may be aware of some detail of Key’s plan that guarantees that the hunting of whales will decrease and soon cease. If you do, please show the details.
You say you are against commercial whaling.
Why do you oppose it?
As a side note – you are adopting a beligerant tone with this debate, demanding this answer and that response, claiming the use of ‘semantics’ and declining to answer questions put to you by commenters here. Is this for your pleasure? It’s an easy game to play and I’m always keen to join in.
Like or Dislike:
3 
0 (+3)
Pentwig said:
I am against commercial whaling.
And yet you support legitimizing commercial whaling.
Do I think it cruel to hunt and kill whales? Why only whales?
You’ve answered my question …with a question! Transparent ploy. You go on …
I think it is cruel to hunt and kill any animal but am realistic enough to understand that mankind needs to kill certain animals to survive.
Here, you would have us believe that ‘mankind’ needs to hunt whales to survive. After all, it is whales we are discussing. ‘Mankind’ must be the Japanese as it is them we are discussing and you must be talking about these activities taking place in the southern oceans, as that’s the location on which this debate is focused.
You are opposed to commercial whaling, but because it’s necessary, you’ll support it.
Have I read you correctly, pentwig?
Like or Dislike:
1 
0 (+1)
i think his mind is clouded by his ‘hair-envy’-issues..
how else to explain his obvious confusion/scatter-gun-logic..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Like or Dislike:
1 
0 (+1)
Greenfly
I am sorry you are confused.
It will may be my haste in my replies as I was interested in your thoughts. I am busy packing gear for another trip to Antartica tonight so between blogging and packing etc.-well not being a female multi tasking is obviously not my forte.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
(yawn..!)..i think i am bored with yr game..there..pentwig..
so..see ya..!
eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Pentwig – on the way to the ice, consider the behemoths that swim beneath you.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Fly
I am paid to.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
pentwig
I am paid too!
Let’s celebrate our good fortune by not aiding or abetting the killing of whales!
Joking aside, you are paid to consider the behemoths?
Tell me then, why you favour Key’s plan, if you can find a moment between packing your thermal jocks and jars of marmite.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Fly
Just quickly – I dont believe in eco terrorism so that takes away the Sea Shephard and Greenpeace approach.
The UN has no guts to apply trade bans or any other sanctions against Japan and other countries. Besides the world populace has become sceptical of the UN because of its ineffectfulness and hidden agendas.
Keys approach, and I believe it it is not a stand alone approach, may work. In fact I wish it every success simply because I cannot think of other way to stop the slaughter. Having said that Japan must start now to wean itself off whale meat so the next generation don’t want it.
The problem is cattle/sheep/pork meat is horribly expensive in all of Asia whereas whalemeat is cheap. It is not the wealthy who eat it but the poor/needy, so another conundrum.
I was hoping you had a cunning plan!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
you have fallen prey to the worst of the ‘scientific whalers’ PR – that they are protein-starved & must whale.
Nope, they are whalers because they believe in their right to take whales. They buy our tuna, and as many other fish species as they can get (Sealord’s has a major deal with Japanese processors) and they have expensive beef for the elites that is produced in Japan (Kobi beef, hand-massaged daily by cowgirls…).
They have been caught with warehouses full of refridgerated whalemeat that can’t be sold, to the extent that it ends up in petfood (like our horsemeat market…) – young Japanese don’t eat the stuff, despite there being Government PR to try to increase the consumption of whalemeat.
I’ve never seen a Japanese restaurant here try to sell whalemeat, but they’ll import plenty of other authentic japanese ingredients for their meals. Mackerel fillets are a speciality, as are crabmeat (surimi), and salmon and tuna sashimi meals (raw fish).
Japan had it’s right to bear arms removed after WW2; they’ve used the fishing rights as a defacto weapon ever since, as their ships roam the seas hoovering up fish species to extinction.
Why add whales to that score?
Many british children ate whalemeat in school dinners during WW2, and most of them haven’t a good thing to say about it – fatty, unpleasant to taste, and chewy. Norway is the only other nation actively whaling at present, and Japan takes many times more tonnes of whalemeat than Norway.
The IWC is clear on the subject – whaling is banned – whalers should be taken to the World Court in the Hague and tried for breach of the International Whaling Convention. Confiscate the ships, confiscate the catch, stop the trade. End of story.
Like or Dislike:
5 
0 (+5)
Greenpeace have now weighed in:
http://www.greenpeace.org/new-zealand/press/releases/save-whales-not-whaling?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+gpnzpress+%28Greenpeace+NZ+Press+Releases%29
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)