by frog
Published in Environment & Resource Management by frog on Mon, March 8th, 2010
General Debate, 8th March 2010
Published: March 8, 2010
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Please use 
on the trolls and those who are unable to keep on topic
Oi – Food for cogitation eh?
“Civilization is an unnatural act. We have to make it happen, you and I,
together with all the other strangers. And because we and strangers have to agree on the difference between a horse thief and a horse trader, the
distinction is ethical. Without it, a society becomes a war against all, and a market for the wolves becomes a slaughter for the lambs.”
Bill Moyers – Commencement address to Hamilton College in 2006.
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A frenzy of support for Michael Lhaws over at Kiwiblog! What is our country coming to?
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Indeed toad, what is the country coming to when the partner and the kids are subject to abuse, from strangers, for the views held by their partner and father respectatively.
Guess the Greens dont have a problem with that?
You throw the brick through the Law’s childrens bedroom window? Is that acceptable behaviour?
Guess so in your opnion.
Wonder if any of the Green spokepersons’ would like a brick through their childrens bedroom window?
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Hey, Gerrit, I wasn’t meaning that. It is disgraceful to damage his property or threaten him or his family. I wasn’t meaning the nasty smear story the Herald ran against Laws and his partner either.
What I was meaning was the political support he is getting – people endorsing his views on sterilisation, people endorsing his dog-whistling to the racist underbelly, people referring to him as “a fresh bit of sanity” when he’s actually a nasty little bigot.
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toad,
You should have made that crystal clear from the outset. Would not have taken much.
Good to see you endorse free speech and protection of the speakers family.
You may hate the message but allow the speaker the freedom to have a say.
Something the cowards of Whanganui (wanganui or whanghanui – I really dont care one way or the other) seem unable to appriciate, our ability to have free speech (and our right to disagree with the content of the speech).
Even you are a bigot for calling him LHAWS as a moniker plus labelling him one as a “nasty little”.
I thought greenfly was the designated personal degenerator, though I notice you are leaning that way as well.
I expected better from you.
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Toad! You heard Gerrit!
Your use of the ‘H’ in Michael’s surname is quite the worst denigration I’ve seen for many a long while and, like Gerrit, I’m most unhappy!
And to say Toad, that Michael is ‘nasty’! Well, you’re absolutely correct.
He is.
As for ‘little’.
Wash your mouth out, you heartless monster!
(Thanks for the heads-up Gerrit. This behaviour from Toad is chilling).
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Sorry ‘fly. I’m usually a very tolerant chap, but for some inexplicable reason Michael Lhaws and David Garrotte just make my blood boil.’
Any idea why?
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They are both honest men and true, Toad. I can’t fathom your dislike for them at all. Why, I listen to Michael on Radio Live talkback and though it seems at times that he is an arrogant and cruel sh*t, I think it’s just some kind of distorted reception on my radio (no one with pig-ignorant, heartless, puffed-up, egocentric views, such as those I seem to hear uttered by Michael, would be broadcast publically, would they?)
The blame for Mr Garrett’s views about sterilization, his bigoted comments and public drunkeness can’t be his to bear alone. I credit his membership to the Act Party for those and while that doesn’t entirely excuse his brutish world views, it does go a long way toward explaining them, don’t you think?
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Toad
I see you got a right royal roasting over at Kiwiblog.
You ran to the pond just when it was getting interesting.
Surely those bl***y righties didn’t get too hot for you?
Harden up man.
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Toad
I see you got a right royal roasting over at Kiwiblog today.
You ran away to the pond just when it was getting interesting.
Surely those bl***y righties didn’t get your blood boiling?
Harden up man!
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A very, very naughty post by Trevor Mallard at Red Alert:
Strange as it may seem, because I am no fan of Trevor’s style, I can’t help thinking he may be onto something here. Double Dipton was dead meat while Brash remained in control.
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Toad – it’s always been English.
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Hail Mary!
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Toad Says:
A frenzy of support for Michael Laws over at Kiwiblog! What is our country coming to?
—
Don’t expect a frenzy of support for the Greens Toad you aren’t on the same wavelength as the bulk of NZrs….. but one day you’ll win us all around (the tide is turning)?
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toad (1894) Says:
March 8th, 2010 at 10:48 am
Murray, the spelling of a place name is not a matter of public opinion. It is either historically correct or it is not.
======
Feeling Orwellian are we Toad- people shouldn’t be able to choose their own spelling for the place they live in?
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I see Gerrit comes with multiple thumbs as usual.
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This being general debate I might say to JH that he is indeed correct about the tide turning.. motorists over the bridge (SH1) at saltwater creek declare how for several days now the water level has never been so high.. inches off the roadway at one time, they say.. and not a sign of Spring tides…
Does terraced flatland around kiwi coasts have a possible ‘retention’ problem.. like surges per tsunami could mebbe ‘stay up’ instead of outflowing as one might hope for..?
Related: somehow I cannot discount the findings announced last weekend that water levels at Lyttelton were 1.8 meters higher than usual for the time of year. Indicating both variable impacts to recent water inflows and possible loss (salting) of otherwise productive land. To name but two.
What government appointments (if any) might contribute positively to such matters. Crikey, saltwater creek cannot be the only coastal flat meandering water course..
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Massive tidal surges in the Hawkes Bay.
6 metre waves…worst in a decade…
Gerrit?
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Whaling.
New Zealand’s proud past.
Revisited.
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“Whaling.
New Zealand’s proud past.
Revisited.”
If we had really wanted to stop whaling, we should have taken the Japanese approach and bribed all the Pacific and Caribbean states. It is all well and good taking the moral high road, but if that doesn’t get what is necessary…
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In three years (1998-2001) as mayor of Colombia’s capital city of 7 million, Peñalosa’s Administration accomplished the following:
* Led a team that created the TransMilenio, a bus rapid transit system (BRT), which now carries a half-million passengers daily on special bus lanes that offer most of the advantages of a subway at a fraction of the cost.
* Built 52 new schools, refurbished 150 others and increased student enrollment by 34 percent.
* Established or improved 1200 parks and playgrounds throughout the city.
* Built three central and 10 neighborhood libraries.
* Built 100 nurseries for children under five.
* Improved life in the slums by providing water service to 100 percent of Bogotá households.
* Bought undeveloped land on the outskirts of the city to prevent real estate speculation and ensured that it will be developed as affordable housing with electrical, sewage, and telephone service as well as space reserved for parks, schools, and greenways. (1)
* Established 300 kilometers of separated bikeways, the largest network in the developing world.
* Created the world’s longest pedestrian street, 17 kilometers (10.5 miles) crossing much of the city as well as a 45- kilometer (28 miles) greenway along a path that had been originally slated for an eight-lane highway.
* Reduced traffic by almost 40 percent by implementing a system where motorists must leave cars at home during rush hour two days a week. He also raised parking fees and local gas taxes, with half of the proceeds going to fund the new bus transit system.
* Inaugurated an annual car-free day, where everyone from CEOs to janitors commuted to work in some way other than a private automobile.
* Planted 100,000 trees.
(1) what ever your model of the economy is land is real value. That value is constantly usurped by private individuals who import (with government complicity) wealthy foreigners to maximise their profits and thereby diluting the lifestyles of the poorer citizens— support a land tax.
http://shareable.net/blog/can-we-design-cities-for-happiness
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http://whoar.co.nz/2010/gladiators-were-vegan-video/
whoar..!..who knew..?..eh..?
and..
before going into battle .. the roman army would switch to a vegan diet..
once again..who knew..?..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Those of us who have been around for 6 or more decades dont see a problem.
These “surges” have been happening since the dawn of time.
Have seen Tamaki Drive completely underwater at its lowest point (by the boating club) in my time plus have witnessed first hand a subdivision in Ohiwa Harbour (just west of Ohope Beach) wiped out and disappear into the Pacific. Recently had 4.5 metre tides in the Manukau. Something that was a yearly occurance not many decades ago.
These “surges” happen over and over again are not alarming unless you have not prepared for them.
If you profess to be a boaty type of some history you will have been aware that these high tides and “surges” are common.
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philu
Nearly all male vegans/vegetarians I know and most I don’t (eg Bull Allen)are bald.
Are you?
Am not being personnal but just a strange phenomenon I have noticed.
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sorry to puncture yr misconceptions there..pentwig..(‘wig’..heh..1..)
..but ..i am blessed with a full head of the hairy stuff..
(thanks for asking..!..eh..?
i put it down to a vegan diet..eh..?..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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“Massive tidal surges in the Hawkes Bay.
6 metre waves…worst in a decade…”
The phrase ‘worst in a decade’ clearly suggests it just being part of natural variation. The speeding up of glaciers in Antarctica and Greenland must cause sea-level rises sometime, but there could be a lot of false alarms before it actually happens.
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philu
I need the wig but I ain’t no vegan!
I love my Angus T bones too much.
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One thing I’ve noticed (perhaps since the new rubbish collection system) is an absence of flies in Chch (at least where I live). Originally I put it down to the fact that there are mice in my compost (eating lavae?)
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who are you trying to convince there..pentwig..?
(can i call you baldy..?..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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“If we had really wanted to stop whaling, we should have taken the Japanese approach and bribed all the Pacific and Caribbean states…”
Use an un-ethical method to counter what we believe to be an un-ethical practice?
Doesn’t sound like the Greens at all.
Best thing (if not the most effective thing) is to cleary state your view (we are against commercial whaling) and stick to it (rather than sell out if there is money or trade on offer).
That’s why I support the Greens.
Integrity.
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Pentwig – meat eating takes the edge off your cognition.
It shows in your posts.
(Just chidin’ ya, baldy!)
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Gerrit – great extrapolation there!
(Been around for 6 decades, know what happened back at the dawn of time…)
Oddly high and persistant tides around Southland over the past week, but given that you doubt my ‘boaty’ claims, it’s probably nothing out of the ordinary.
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We are coming into the week of Autumn Equinox soon, guys – so both Gerrit and Greenfly may be right, simultaneously, but for diferent reasons; ‘hangover’ tidal surges from the tsunami wave may seem to explain something, but peak tidal surges associated with the equinox might be a closer bet.
Getting ready for the shorter days, longer nights and end of daylight saving?
I’m already about to harvest the last of the spuds, hoping that the last cherry tom’s will turn red soon, and thinking about what to plant for winter greens and how much fallow garden to leave.
(Autumn Equinox is 21st March, so you have a fortnight or so to get ready for it…)
All this, and we finally see an indian summer in Wellington, so I’m also hoping that it will hold on for long enough to give me my fill of sunny days.
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greenfly,
Very little water but a lot of gas!!
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Katie! Indian summer – what a doozy (lucky you’re on our side!).
Gerrit and I, both right!
Outrageous!
In fact, I’m not claiming anything at all other than the occurence of surges in the Hawkes bay and around Southland. Gerrit has lept into some sort of lead-up to a Creation Debate, as apparently he has the inside running on what went down i roto i Te Kore, i mua i Te Awatea.
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Creation debate, that is a truely long bow.
Better disregard that greenfly less you mistake it for something not intended.
“Since the dawn of time” is an expresion used a while back but seemingly out of favour this decade.
ah well!!!!!!!!!!
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Gerrit – how many surges, and at what frequency must they occur before you would say, “Hang on. There’s something odd going on here. Perhaps there is something in this whole ‘sea level’, climate change thing after all”?
For me personally, it’s hailstorms and hail-stone size that gets my attention.
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Hmm, hailstones…
Yes, Melbourne had a freak dose of them just a few days ago; I hope that doesn’t hit what’s left of Otago’s fabulous stone-fruit crops here.
I may not be bribable with money, but apricots from around Cromwell would have to be up there on my ‘must get some’ list. And dried peaches, nectarines, etc from orchards thereabouts.
There’s definitely some problems to deal with about reliability of weather in relation to continued supply of primary produce that we’re used to seeing each season. Even the conventional growers are going to be having conniptions if they get regular ‘unseasonal’ weather events piling up.
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Power prices.. I don’t gerrit(to use that brit vernacular)..
this morning a twofold A4 sheet arrived in the postbox from a power company which (inside) tells of being both a power generator and retailer. A Closer Look at Electricity Prices. Flip the page and you get a ‘look into’ what makes up electricity prices. [ webpage lookalike ]
I have issues already..
“New Zealand’s electricity prices reflect the cost of providing electricity and the cost of building new generation to meet New Zealand’s demand in the future” it says.
First issue: they do futures contracts (likely imported natural gas) and appear to lack transparency around that. Do they realise those contracts, whilst perhaps taken up as inflation hedges, push prices up. Do they also realise that futures contracts converge to push spot prices up.? And, when all the commodity (gas) is taken up by futures why then the spot price (for actual gas) disappears and financial BWave methodology steps in with futures price averaging the price-setter.
Hope that’s not too hard to follow folks, and I’m not patronizing anyone for saying so. The point in fact being how futures dealers speculate price spikes. qv Oil. And because this leaflet bullets “In the last financial year natural gas prices increased by approximately 25 per cent”, the possibility of such financial dealings cannot be discounted. Whats more these could involve importation and currency, at which point further risks – and price pumping – enter the frame. Not to mention dodgy dealers in/around offshore gas markets.
“There’s a lack of gas reserves in New Zealand”, it goes. Developing gas generation is a no-no. Attractively priced now but not “feasible” in the future.
Backstory: I’m looking at the US fracking natural gas to replace coal-powered generation. This process pumps liquid under very high pressure into seams/shale, thereafter extracting gas and ponding really mucky liquors. My point: natural gas replacing coal. Not feasible has a look of coal replacing natural gas.
So, in NZ if – like the leaflet says – gas-fired generation is future no-no. And if, as it also says 25 percent “of the country’s electricity is generated using natural gas”. And if, it adds: “These gas-fired power stations are essential to ensure New Zealand’s electricity system can manage when the wind isn’t strong or hydro lakes are low, as well as in times of peak demand such as early in the morning”.
Then what future generation is causative, as pronounced in the leaflet, “electricity prices will need to rise over the coming years”. Verifying it adds: “To ensure that investment in new electricity generation occurs to meet future demand”.
Starts off the same way it finishes. Gerrit? Well not quite since initially the concern was costs and now consumer investment in this generator/retailer’s plans is the name of the game.
Saving a weekly buck or two for pension times and aged security I buy. Funding a power company for its future determinations is something else. Aside from the fact of air to breath being the only gas I use there appears very little choice in affecting the prices I pay for power. When the very least that should be on the user/consumer’s table is a full declaration of competance. And clearly set out goals.
Given the climate — business and environmental — we should know whether coal, nuclear, geothermal, wave and any mix ratios of these with what already exists will be upcoming. And where, and why?
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greenfly,
I’m neither a scientist not a record keeper of tidal events.
Surges have been happening since adam was a cowboy, but are they more frequent?
My guess is not, but then my guess is as good as yours.
This might be of interest
http://www.seafriends.org.nz/oceano/tides.htm
They note that
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Thanks for that link, Gerrit,
Never knew about spring tides every fortnight.. I guess they mean small ‘s’ spring.. nevertheless a surprise.
Submarine nodes, I could have guessed at though not their wave-orienting and directional capabilities. And NZ has a biggish one just east of the NI.
In my earlier comment pertaining saltwater creek in Canty a concern about the submarine floor shape had gotten an implied mention.. this to hopefully explain higher ‘sloshing’ levels of water at this time—which still could a possibility. With adequate expanse a wind could whip this up to cause hitherto unknown or experienced tidal behaviors. High tides impelling this might also create problems..
Mebbe authorities will take time out to go see.. whatever.
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tomfarmer,
If we read further chapters on that web site we see that the great southern ocean wind systems have a huge influence on ocean tide levels.
A storm south of Africa in the South Atlantic can push water up in the Southern Pacific ocean and effect New Zealands tides.
It is a complex science and to attribute recent high tide surges are are a more frequent occurance and caused by man made global warming is a far too simplistic answer.
Facinating stuff.
If we add the changing underwater shape of the earths mantle and it is not suprising the great oceans slop around like a full washing machine.
Places like Lake Ellesmere just south of Christchurch where the sea has been allowed periodically back into the lake will prove interesting observation for study.
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New Zealand is now a pro-whaling country
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1003/S00102.htm
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Gerrit,
caused by man made global warming is a far too simplistic answer.
Should, however, increased water volumes be found – either resulting from melt or precipitation or water expansion – you would not discount this consequence of global warming..?
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Driven by greed.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/southland-times/opinion/letters-to-the-editor/3426456/Your-view-City-flights-Blossom-Festival-Governments-greed-virtual-dams-Bible
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tomfarmer,
It would off cource be added to the equation.
How much weight you would add to the equation on how and when tidal surges occur by global warming is debatable.
I would suggest that not enough research has been done to quantify the weighting global warming would have on tidal water movement.
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“The limits of carrying capacity are excruciatingly difficult to discern, because resources are distributed so inequitably and used so wastefully. But that does not mean such limits do not exist. And I don’t have to tell you that, for many ecosystems, those limits are near — or have already been surpassed.”
http://www.energybulletin.net/node/51871
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“Best thing (if not the most effective thing) is to cleary state your view (we are against commercial whaling) and stick to it (rather than sell out if there is money or trade on offer).”
Greenfly, the problem is that the whales would still be slaughtered in the name of research because of sitting on the moral high ground. Whilst I would prefer to sit on the moral high ground most of the time, there are situations where you might have to resort to the lesser of two evils.
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And here you are Gerrit, just for you.. and that equation:
Talk about movers and shakers
Not forgetting Archimedes .. of course..
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russell norman has admitted he goes to macdonalds..
for the endangered fish..didn’tyaknow..?
good grief..!
(holy bad example..!..batman..!)
‘
the green you’re having when you’re not having a green..
..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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john-ston
The lesser of two evils sounds very reasonable, if it’s the only option, which this proposal from Key, isn’t.
Once you concede that the ‘LOTE’ model is the one you will follow, all sorts of other resources can be ‘traded off’.
I don’t trust the process. It lacks integrity.
The National Government clearly adore it as a way to ‘grow the economy’.
If you are a whale, such machinations are life threatening.
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@philu 9:32 PM
Give us a link, Phil, so we can evaluate the evidence.
I’ve been to McDonalds too, but only to take a crap:- I was desperate, it was the closest place with a toilet, and somehow I thought it was perversely appropriate.
I recall an Auckland University pub crawl in the late ’70′s or early ’80s scheduling McDonalds Queen Street as its 32nd crawl venue.
Not to encourage anyone to eat there, but because it seemed an appropriate place after 31 pubs for students to go for a piss, a crap, and a spew.
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The limits of carrying capacity are excruciatingly difficult to discern, because resources are distributed so inequitably and used so wastefully.
Careful, jh, these authors have a rather holistic approach to their problem solving, mixing social justice and environmental issues for goodness sake! Sounds very watermelonish to me
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Greenfly, the problem is that the whales would still be slaughtered in the name of research because of sitting on the moral high ground. Whilst I would prefer to sit on the moral high ground most of the time, there are situations where you might have to resort to the lesser of two evils.
john-ston, either greenfly is right, or this govt is being played for suckers. Japan has been buying IWC votes for years via international aid and will continue to manipulate things to their advantage. This is the thin end of the wedge which will grow if we let it start at all. We need to remain staunch in the face of this latest game rather than play into their hands. Ironically, the Japanese public is slowly but surely turning against whaling. If the pressure isn’t kept up, we could loose the whole war, not just this battle.
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he did give a good ‘bite’ on the causes of crime..(ie..inequality..)
at the end tho’..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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toad..the ‘link’/evidence/proof is tonights’ issue of backbenchers..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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“john-ston, either greenfly is right, or this govt is being played for suckers. Japan has been buying IWC votes for years via international aid and will continue to manipulate things to their advantage. This is the thin end of the wedge which will grow if we let it start at all. We need to remain staunch in the face of this latest game rather than play into their hands. Ironically, the Japanese public is slowly but surely turning against whaling. If the pressure isn’t kept up, we could loose the whole war, not just this battle.”
Valis, if Japan is going to buy votes, then surely it would be in the best interests of the whales to counter Japan by also buying votes?
What I was saying, in case I was misunderstood, is that if New Zealand and Australia want whaling to stop, then they are going to have to get off the moral high ground and start buying the votes of the Pacific and Caribbean Islands.
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tomfarmer says “…and Buenos Aires, the Brazilian capital located on the other side of the continent, shifted about an inch,….”
I fear there will be great conflict and perhaps even war in South America when Brazil finds out their capital has been moved to Argentina…..
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Ah, don’t normally do TV. Will have a look on-line for it tomorrow (presumably it will be there by then).
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What I was saying, in case I was misunderstood, is that if New Zealand and Australia want whaling to stop, then they are going to have to get off the moral high ground and start buying the votes of the Pacific and Caribbean Islands.
I can see some practical difficulties competeing successfully with Japan in that way, but at least it would be better than just rolling over like we’re planning to do.
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Careful, jh, these authors have a rather holistic approach to their problem solving, mixing social justice and environmental issues for goodness sake! Sounds very watermelonish to me.
====
I see the “alarmist” label being used against “populationists” and the notion that :
“As Loretta Ross, National Director of SisterSong, writes, both reproductive justice and environmental justice movements share “an understanding of the complexity and intersectionality of issues that include not only the right to have, or not have children, but the right to raise our children in healthy and safe communities.”
http://climateandcapitalism.com/?p=1544
This sounds like Green Party policy to me the assumption that it is every womans right to bear as many children as she wants plus the notion that it is (then) societies duty to ensure their well being. I wonder what holistic process is supposed to control population…. equality and education?
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photonz1,
a question for you based on your ass-ertion: tomfarmer says “…and Buenos Aires, the Brazilian capital located on the other side of the continent, shifted about an inch,….”
where did I say that.?
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tomfarmer – relax – I was just pointing out the fundamental error in your quoted source.
It sort of ruins the credibility of your quote when they get the country wrong.
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Hugh Manatee excluded from Kiwiblog!
Oh, the humanity!
When will the banning end???
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whoar..!!
http://whoar.co.nz/2010/video-glenn-beck-attacks-phillip-ure/
(who knew he knew..?..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Ah but someone has posted this Story already?
Shirley
http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/digital-living/3434754/New-Zealands-internet-filter-goes-live
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was that you ..again..?..fly..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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I missed that ‘fly. I saw d4j cop two lots of 50 demerit points within 30 minutes at Kiwiblog (which I presume results in a period of suspension there) for paedophilia references in response to Hugh Manatee, but I didn’t see what Hugh supposedly did wrong.
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Was I in need of relaxation, photonz1, gee I never knew.
The source quoted was, however, for Gerrit’s attention, as I said. Advising him that the topography part of his equation had changed somewhat. My guess is he would recognise this meaning a smaller bath in which the existing volume of water, let alone any increase due to climate change, could ‘slosh’ around.
Credibility..? another puzzler. Let’s say I’m left to guess that you know what you are talking about here. And no, I’m not trying be rude. For me, relevance is the big deal.
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tomfarmer – credibility?
You don’t think there is a slight loss of credibility when university researchers, supposedly expert in geology, state that Buenos Aires in Argentina, is the capital of Brazil? (they were only one country and 2500km out)
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photonz1, credibility..? for the last time.. promise… if this is an issue for you then I’d say that any such lack of credibility lies with the reporter of the source, not the source itself.
A case of cup and lip — there being an awful lot of coffee in Brazil. Nothing therein otherwise negates my offer to Gerrit..
have a nice weekend
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tomfarmer – are we talking about the same thing. You message makes no sense.
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not for me to deny your non-sense.
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