by frog
Published in THE GAME by frog on Sat, January 30th, 2010
Tags: general debate
General debate, 30 January, 2010
Published: January 30, 2010
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Please use 
on the trolls and those who are unable to keep on topic
Maybe another candidate for your list?
Al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden has called in a new audiotape for the world to boycott American goods and the U.S. dollar, blaming the United States and other industrialized countries for global warming. In the tape, aired in part on Al-Jazeera television Friday, bin Laden warns of the dangers of climate change and says that the way to stop it is to bring “the wheels of the American economy” to a halt
For more information, visit washingtonpost.com:
http://link.email.washingtonpost.com/r/PSLW3N/90136/XHFGZ9/DSAUKA/MPZ77/CM/t
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Surely this can’t be true! John Key has given Education Minister Anne
Tolley $26 million dollars to “win over parents, teachers and schools” on
National’s foolish ‘standards’ scheme.
All that badly needed education money wasted on a ‘charm offensive’ and
all because the idea is so bad that no one will swallow it unless they are
‘charmed’ by the under-performing, out of touch Education Minister.
This doomed-to-fail scheme goes from bad to worse.
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Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
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You miss the point by a country mile Peter.
There are a battery of tests in place now that accurately measure student achievement.
There are processes in place already to deal with teachers that are failing in their duties.
You of all people are championing the introduction of more beaurocracy, where there is more than enough already. You want to force another layer of testing onto a system that is already slowed by that which already exists and you want to see emphasis put on testing students, rather than teaching them?
The horror, indeed. The Paucity of Thought, more like.
Tolley’s attempts to force her pet system (Bill English’s desires more like) onto a professional community that can see the huge holes in the argument and know the reality of what is required in schools, is breathtakingly stupid but the battle that is building is one that I am looking foward to very much. Your reaction to the Times letter is very encouraging, if it reflects the level of knowledge the supporters of the proposed regime. Bring it on and have a gaze into your crystal ball while you are at it. I’d love you to make a pronouncement on the outcome of this stouch.
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Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
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” Count” ?
” Count !!!
Simplistic know-nothing.
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“I wake up a lot during the night”
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“Key’s intervention means the government is likely to adopt National MP Simon Bridges’ private member’s bill, which proposes increasing the maximum jail term for animal cruelty from three years to five”
National to achieve where the LabGreens failed.
So much for being the animal welfare party…..
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There is no party called ‘LabGreens’
So much for being a political commentator!
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Of all the deals you could have made…..
Smacking…
EFA….
Priorities, eh.
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Is what is happening in Haiti an example of what the world will be like when oil runs out and economy’s begin collapsing.
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No.
Try not to be so scared of what won’t happen. Every decade there’s a new Armageddon fable.
Best ignored, as always politically driven.
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Tolley will not succeed in getting Nationals proposal implemented successfully, until she wins the support of the teachers. Her efforts to that end have been woeful .
Woeful.
Hence the ‘charm offensive’.
Woeful and offensive.
Go Anne!
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..everything else..(spuds/kumara/carrots/peas/beans)..is also going gangbusters..
it’s a doddle..this gardening lark..eh..?
good soil..good seed..water..and you are there..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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phil – good to hear and good to have you back!
Now you can go outside into your garden and take a pea!
That corn, those ears – listening to your every word (your dogs’ll love gnawing on those cobs once you’ve chewed off the sweet kernels – better than a bone).
It’s sweltering hot down south today – summer did arrive after all!
How was your trip?
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v.good..
yr fruit was eaten in a suitably awesome setting..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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All these areas are smack bang in the middle of town and mere metres away from down town and the largest residential area on the entire West Coast.
Councillor Cumming said bitterly:
“we want to prove to council that there is good gold on Cobden Island. All we want is for them to have an open mind on it”
An open mind? An OPEN MIND!!! to mining out the centre of town?
To Put this in perspective look at this picture of the area in question:
http://www.nabs.co.nz/images/9021.jpg
The proposed area is the lagoon to the right, the entire river, and the entire green area in the middle (Cobden Island) AS WELL as the beach adjacent to the left hand break water, they were actually granted a non notifiable consent to do this!
Perhaps It is mr Cumming that needs to be a little more open minded about other uses of prime recreational land and water, however they have found gold and they are itching to dig!
It remains to be seen whether they will be successful.
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Only a Luddite would oppose this business-positive development.
Call yourself a Coaster?
The tourist potential of a mine so close to a town is worth its weight in gold – there are people who would travel across the world to see this – you know that our Tourism Minister has said that modern mining practices are like minor surgical procedures, the townspeople would barely notice (anesthetized you see) and the environmentally friendly mining companies would repair the site to a state better than it was before ,once they had finished.
In short Shunda, give up. Resistance is futile.
Open your mind (let it all spill out).
Or …
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Councillor Cumming’s been misquoted…
He meant to say ‘Open Mined’
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Haaa, I do like coming back in here when I’ve had a day away, lol.
Yesterday was a neighbourhood bbq, at which the hot topic, which required a field-trip of interested attendees, was ‘to keep chickens on a standard quarter-acre, or not’ – needless to say, two households had chickens already & regaled us with stories (and freshly boiled eggs as a salad-table side…) and there was much discussion of garden-protecting, chicken-tractors, and other technology to do with laying fowls.
All to the accompaniment of munching on many salads grown in the local backyards!
genji -
yes, I do look at Haiti and wonder which next disaster-zone will be the excuse for a military take-over by the USA, under the guise of ‘stabilisation’.
This is an even more blatent land-grab than Iraq was, expect Halliburton to start building Macca’s outlets any time soon, in return for contracts to clear the rubble…
Shunda -
beginning to understand the ‘snail-loving treehuggers’ that have been in your region, suddenly? Great!
I’ll appreciate any and all efforts you make to stop the abomination, as I’ve got a plan to visit the West Coast, but just haven’t made it back south to get started on the tour, yet.
I’d prefer to see places like that before a new wave of corporate mining wipes them out….
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Here are the urban area densities of a few well known New World cities:
RANK NATION URBAN AREA POPULATION SQU. KM. DENSITY YEAR
644 UNITED STATES LOS ANGELES 13,829,000 5,812 2,400 2000
659 NEW ZEALAND AUCKLAND 1,125,000 531 2,100 2006
663 AUSTRALIA SYDNEY, NSW 3,641,000 1,788 2,050 2006
677 UNITED STATES NEW YORK 19,712,000 11,264 1,750 2000
681 AUSTRALIA MELBOURNE, VIC 3,372,000 2,152 1,550 2006
Auckland urban area (an international standard statistic) density is greater than New York.
I don’t suggest New York get less dense but that we don’t make Auckland any denser.
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Sorry about the tabulation.
Suggest you copy and paste it into a document and tidy it up.
Did the best I could with editing etc.
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Tabulation is not the only thing OMc should be sorry for..
Buddies stateside tell me his link to WAPO would have to be the most sanitized source available. They cite Drudge, Limbaugh and Foxnews for the so-called OBL anti-American doctrine. They also say how all of these outlets have been suckered by OBL’s hatred and wrecker attitudes..
That same would apply to the wapo link is more surprise than anything else.. mebbe reflecting realities in media there these days. Of course we are left to assume how OMc cares not for such things.. tho hater and wrecker – one is known by one’s associates – will be difficult to dispel.
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Indeed.
I may need some expert advice on this one greenfly, I will be damned if I am going to stand back and watch it happen.
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Who would have thought Katie, who would have thought.
I am not sure what is happening to me to be honest!
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greenfly says “…and the environmentally friendly mining companies would repair the site to a state better than it was before ,once they had finished.”
This might be sarcastic, but there’s at least a couple of sites in Otago (near Milton and Millers Flat) where they mined valleys and left much better pasture, irrigation, drainage, and recreation dams etc.
So it is possible – it has been done.
Then there’s mining sites and towns that are tourist attractions – Central Otago has Bannockburn, Bendigo, Arrowtown, Naseby, Ophir, St Bathans, Nevis Valley, Clyde, Carricktown, Quartzville, Young Australian Mine, Golden Progress Mine, the Styx, Skippers, Macetown, and on the West Coast there’s Bruner Mine, Denniston, Millerton, Ross, Reefton, the artificial mining town Shantytown, etc. In the North Is theres Karangahake Gorge, Waihi, and likewise also a current working mine at Macraes Flat.
All these places are interesting and attract regular visitors. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t insist on the best posible standards for any current or new mining (and protect special places of course).
Things do need to be put into persective though. For example, while Macraes Mine has a large open cast pit making a severe scar on a small piece of farmland, the nearby proposed Hayes Wind Farm would completely destroy a pristine wilderness area hundreds of times larger
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“Auckland urban area (an international standard statistic) density is greater than New York. I don’t suggest New York get less dense but that we don’t make Auckland any denser.”
Owen, what really caught my eye is that Auckland has now overtaken Sydney in urban area density – does that now make Auckland the densest city in Australasia?
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Shunda – all power to you. There are people here who can advise you as to the best legal actions and bureaucratic pathways to take.
In the meantime, I suggest you get rolling on enlightening the people of your area as to what’s happening. Flour and water make a great paste.
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photonz1 – the argument that ‘it’ll be better than before’ has gaping holes in it, just like the ground that has been mined.
The huge amounts of money involved mean that, yes, a fine paddock or swimming hole can be created to cover the excavations, but it’ll be the same story as the pastures that cover vast areas of our country now, where once there were wetlands and native forests. The new ‘pastures and recreation dams’ might seem a good thing to you, photonz1, but not to me. We’ve more than enough of them already.
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Tomfarmer,
Can you not see a joke (albeit it ironic) when it stares you in the face?
WAPO – the Washington Post brought down President Nixon via Watergate.
I subscribe to the headlines of a number of major dailies. You make the Washington Post sound like a one sided rag like the Herald.
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greenfly – they were pastures previously – just not very good ones.
Someone has to make the money the greens want the government to hand out to everyone.
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john-ston
Almost certainly.
IT goes back to the sixties when the Urban Development Team in Auckland City Council (of which I was a member) was one of the first New World cities to make town-housing and infill housing (different form of what is known as infill today – courtyard housing along Greek lines) permitted activities in most residential areas.
We demonstrated a range of medium density houses in the flats of Freeman’s Bay that has been purchases as part of the ill conceived slum clearance programme.
COnsequently, medium density housing became part of Auckland suburban development from then on – and this is where you get the main gross density gains. Sadly of recent years Smart Growth theory has made high density a goal to be enforced. While these townhouses etc were provided as a matter of choice there were no complaints. But now we use our precious open space as a means of providing higher densities.
Once you go above a certain tipping point the increased congestion on regular urban streets becomes a genuine daily – whole of day – problem.
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This is another interesting set of statistics:
Much of much of the critique of the suburbs revolves around the car. The intrinsic link between suburbs and cars has many social consequences, but first and foremost it has consequences for energy use and globe-warming CO2 emissions. In thousands of ways, the more dispersed life of the suburbs would seem to be a much greater drain on resources than a more compact life in densely occupied cities.
However, there is evidence that runs counter to our expectations of the association between settlement densities on the one hand, and energy use and greenhouse gas emissions on the other. Analysis of the Australian Conservation Foundation’s Conservation Atlas prepared for the Residential Development Council shows, surprisingly, that per capita greenhouse gas emissions are lower in suburban areas than city centres.
Go to:
http://www.propertyoz.com.au/library/RDC_ACF_Greenhouse-Report.pdf
Table one Page 11
Source: Greenhouse gas emissions, tonnes per capita, Housing form in Australia and its impact on greenhouse gas emissions, Residential Development Council 22 October 2007, p 11
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photonz1 your statement:
“Someone has to make the money the greens want the government to hand out to everyone.”
doesn’t make sense at all (making your statement nonsense).
As to the pastures, I’m guessing you will be keen for the McKenzie Basin cubicle farms to go ahead, ‘because the irrigation and the effluent will improve the existing pastures’.
Here’s a way to view the environment. Allow farming to all but destroy the integrity of an eco system, bring in miners to completely destroy said integrity, then justify their actions by claiming that they will make it better than it was in its previous farmed and degraded state.
It’s a masterstroke of exploitive thinking and so fits with National’s approach to environmental ‘management’.
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There are problems enough with achieving this, but the greater problems arise when a resource is non-renewable or a waste product cannot be safely absorbed back into the environment (such as nuclear waste, plastics, PCBs).
In these cases we urgently need to find sustainable alternatives to these non-sustainable practices and, in the meantime, to minimise their use.
This is where mining comes in. There’s no doubt that we need some mining to access the minerals that our lifestyles make extensive use of (although it would be interesting to see what is genuinely achievable by recycling these materials within the ‘technosphere’). The resources that we mine are finite, and come with both opportunity cost (if we use them for one thing we can’t use them for another) and environmental cost (also a kind of opportunity cost – the land that is mined isn’t used for something else, including ecosystem services).
It seems to me then that decisions about mining need to be made very carefully. What are the things we really need this product for, what is the minimum that we need for that purpose, and what are the place and method for mining it that cause the least environmental damage?
The processes we currently use for mining decisions bear no resemblance at all to this. It’s possible that some of the mining proposals on the West Coast are both necessary and the best options available, but the vast majority will not be. In most cases the driver for the proposal will an economic analysis that ignores environmental externalities and simply concludes that the accessibility of the Gold, and its current price render the cost of extraction affordable. In most cases the proposals will involve knocking over regenerating bush, digging the area over separating out the Gold using very large quantities of water and then rehabilitating the land by filling in the hole, humping and hollowing and planting with grass seed ready for the inevitable dairying operation. More valuable for private gain, sure, but ultimately short-sighted with the loss of biodiversity and other environmental values, and erosion of the biggest industry on the Coast – tourism – by erasing our competitive advantage through crushing our natural environment into a mind-numbing and impoverished sameness.
I’m with Shunda.
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Greenfly – why do so many people on this site falsely attribute an extreme position, as likely to be that of the person they are argueing with, when is reality they don’t have the slightest idea to what that persons position is?
The Otago mines took existing farmland, mined it and returned it as better farmland with some additional features like dams. Whether there should be farms there in the first place depends largely on if you think people should eat or not.
I’m sure other mines have awful environmental records. The point is there are sdome examples that it can be done well.
Similarly, windfarms make a lot of sense in some places, but other proposals are a disaster and will destroy pristine wilderness. A black and white attitude to some industries ignores facts.
I beleive it’s better to judge facts rather than have a general anti mining or anti farming position that makes no sense in many cases.
And by the way, I recently supplied material that went into submissions AGAINST the Mackenzie Farms.
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So photonz1, do you think the proposals I referred to are reasonable?
The land and water in question in this case clearly has more value to the community left as it is.
All this mining would do is further line the pockets of some already very wealthy individuals. No major employment generated, nothing for the community other than another huge scar on the landscape.
People complain about beneficiaries having a sense of entitlement, but to be honest there is no greater “sinner” in this regard than fellas like Councillor Cumming.
These people are corrosive to community development, they oppose all attempts to better the community and contribute nothing themselves.
Like Kevin said, we need some mining, but I would suggest the middle of a town that is trying to move ahead is not the best place to do it.
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Mining requires vast amounts of energy to extract ore carring material and process that material into a usable form. For example aluminium. Do we really, really need aluminium. I don’t think so.
More emphasis needs to be placed on reducing our dependence on electricity. Not enough money is spent on getting people to switch off appliances instead of leaving them on ‘stand-by’.Some people have everything on standby or on charge but are hardly ever home!
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photonz1 – your comments about the improvements that result from the industry of mining sound just like those being put foward by those wanting industrial dairying in the McKenzie Basin (Our activities will result in better farmland!) so it’s logical to assume that you would feel the same way, thus I believed that I did have more than ‘the slightest idea’ about your position. That you oppose the development there is encouraging – may I ask what aspect your objection was over?
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Greenfly and Phil, Regarding corn cobs and dogs… “Food should be free from corn cobs, wool from unskinned sheep carcases, plastic dog roll wrap and plastic bags as these can cause intestinal obstruction.”
http://www.biosecurity.govt.nz/animal-welfare/codes/dogs/index.htm
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Good Lord! I didn’t know that! I’m wondering how my dog
(St Bernard x InSinkErator) has survived to this day.
Thanks fin.
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- “Do we really, really need aluminium. I don’t think so.”
You have alternatives to aluminium for all these applications?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium#Applications
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For those who are interested, the West Coast has another very hot day today. I’m supposed to be going out for a longish ride today, but so far haven’t mustered the energy to tackle the blazing sun. My office has the characteristics of a sauna (without the snow to roll in) and the solar water heater on the roof tells me the temperature up there is over 71 degrees.
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Wellington is summerless again, Kevin, your descriptions of extreme heat are almost painful to the eyes
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Kevin and Katie – Southland is a’roastin’. Tar’s sticking to the bottom of our bare feet and lettuces are wilting terminally. We’re sweltering! I don’t want to talk numbers Kevin, but I think we’ve put you in the shade!
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Ok, it’s official, I’m going to have to put “South Island Travel” further up the list of priorities, this sitting in Wellington watching the rain is just not on.
‘fly -
I keep meaning to get to Dunedin, which will take me as far south as I have ever been – but if rellies are congenial, we may stagger further and I shall evaluate the charms of your region, too.
Might need some suggestions about highlights to visit, although I have my own agendas regarding ‘things-to-do’ that relate to various campaigns past and present, and old favourites to review.
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katie – let me be your (tour) guide.
If Dunedin’s as low as you’ve gone, you aint seen nuttin’ yet!
Forget Invers, head for the countryside.
Riverton (*extra special, best Environment Centre/Organic Food Coop in the world! ), Manapouri, Te Anau, yes (set a spell, put your feet up).
Gore, Winton, Balclutha, Mataura, no (don’t stop, don’t look!)
Will you be cycling?
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Shunda – if Cobden Island was to be mined, in my opinion first it would need to show that -
1/ there were no special environmental concerns (i.e what is the current value of Cobden Is? Is it a wildlife habitat, or just an area covered in noxious plants – gorse, broom, dumped material etc?)
2/ if there are no major issues in 1/, then can they mine without causing any problems with water quality, runnoff, siltation, noise, dust etc?
3/ if they can comply with 1/ and 2/, what can they do with Cobden Island when they have finished to make it a much more valuable ammenity to the community?
If they can comply with 1/, 2/, and 3/, then they should be allowed to enter into resource consent process to have their claims tested and give opposition a chance to be heard.
Greymouth has a great resource in it’s river but in all truth, most of the river frontage is pretty awful.
This may be a chance to make a big improvement at no cost to ratepayers.
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“For those who are interested, the West Coast has another very hot day today.”
Tell me about it Kevin, I have a bad dose of tonsillitis (though the Doc says it could be glandular fever) a high temp and extreme fatigue, not good on an already sweltering hot day!!
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Photonz, the problem with these areas for mining is that noise, dust, and environmental degradation will be serious issues. The island is basically already a blank canvas for development as a community asset so massive earthworks is no advantage whatsoever.
Any mining on the island or in the river/lagoon areas will seriously affect whitebait habitat and all other aquatic life as it will be impossible to do this without degrading water quality. This area is also one of the few places left in NZ where large Kahwai can still be caught and in abundance.
“Greymouth has a great resource in it’s river but in all truth, most of the river frontage is pretty awful.”
Unfortunately Flood protection has to take priority here which limits waterfront options, though there is now a pleasant walk along the top of the flood wall which is popular with tourists.
One thing is for sure, a noisy dredge working day and night is hardly an asset to a town trying to attract doctors and families to the area.
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Shunda – you are missing the advantage of the community getting a major amenity paid for by the mining company.
If environmental effects are large or cannot be mitigated then it should not go ahead.
However I’ve seen mining where all runoff is contained in ponds within the site (and the whole site gradually moves along). Regular naturally ocurring floods can deposit a thousand times more silt than ever escaped from the mining activities.
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Shunda – let the mining companies do what they want, they’ll make it all lovely when they’ve finished.
It’s like saying, “I’ve just raped your daughter, but it’s okay because I’ve bought her a much nicer dress than the one she was wearing”!
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Pita Sharples reveals his true thoughts about National’s standards …. then gets the patu!
Patu, patu, patu !!!
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Greenfly – are you benfiting from this so called rape? Do you happen to use a computer? Or any other home appliances – anything electrical at all. Have you ever traveled in a vehicle?
Or are you completely avoiding a computer and the copper network by sending your messages by homing pigeon?
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Photonz1 – am I benefitting from the proposed mining of Cobden Island? Nope, that’s why I’m joining Shunda and Kevin and opposing it.
Do I happen to use a computer? I don’t ‘happen to’, I consciously use a computer. I’m surprised you couldn’t have deduced that yourself, after all, this isn’t charcoal on a cave wall, is it.
Other home appliances? My dog is my InSinkErator. I don’t have a heated towel rail.
Vehicular travel? Why, yes, your honour, once, in a moment of weakness.
The homing pigeon quip is devastatingly funny – did BluePeter give you the go-ahead to use it again?
If I became aware that there was going to be pillaging that I would benefit from, I’d cancel my involvement, there and then and instead try to prevent the outrage.
There are, however, plenty of materials circulating in the world right now, that were extracted from the earth without my knowledge or suppport. I’d use those, especially if they were able to be and being, reused. My particular effort is toward all possible reduction in the use of materials that require destruction of the environment for their procurement. I don’t, as a result, have garden furniture made from timber from endangered rainforest trees.
How vital do you think the minerals from Cobden Island are to the survival of the human race?
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Photonz, I would imagine NZ is more than self sufficient in Gold output, where is the rest of it going?.
The point I am making is the unsavoury nature of the miners as well as the actual proposal. This guy has already wrecked the entrance to town with heavy machinery and has a long history of arrogance and ignorance towards the wider community.
In short he can not be trusted to do the right thing even if the proposal was reasonable, and there are a lot of other miners with exactly the same attitude.
Make no mistake, this is not about the good of the nation, it is about making the wrong people even richer at the expense of the local community.
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Greenfly – most people I know do the things you list, but they wouldn’t consider themsleves green because of it.
In other words you are not really doing a great deal different to the average person – except slamming the processes that give you the things that you use.
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Shunda – I can sympathise if the person / company you are talking about is not ethical. I have a pet hate of tarring everything with the same brush i.e. mining, profits, business. Few things are black and white and there’s good and bad examples of all those..
However councillors with their sticky beaks in businesses who hand themselves favours and ignore their commitment to do what’s best for the community, should be exterminated (figuratively of course).
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Photonz1 – are you daft? The things I list don’t make me ‘green’?
Not owning a heated towel rail of Kwila garden furniture?
Good grief!
We are discussing the proposed mining of Cobden Island and surrounds.
You feel I should be disqualified from opposing it because I use a computer?
Pleeeeese!
Don’t be daft.
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“The Green Party wants to see sentences for animal cruelty include rehabilitation and education, so that underlying attitudes to animals are changed,” said Ms Kedgley.
That’s it right there Sue – the difference in approach between the Greens and the Tories with their 3-striking mind-set.
Good call also, for institutionalised cruelty to animals, pigs and chickens kept in cages etc. to be treated in the same way as cruelty to pets.
Fat chance though.
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greenfly – you actually compared mining companies who leave an area improved after they have mined, to someone who rapes your daughter and buys a new dress.
I was pointing out that this is an extremist view, especially when you use the products from mining.
No one said you can’t oppose a mine – that’s making a false position.
Some mining is needed for all of us to have our apliances, our electricity etc.
My point is that some mining companies do a much better job than others at doing the least damage posible, and sometimes even improve things – and that this should be encouraged over bad mining practices.
Your comment that best practice mining is like rape shows a rabid attitude, with a touch of hypocracy.
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Photonz1 – Oh, best practice mining! You should have said!
I thought we were discussing mining
Rabid eh!
Whoar!
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Greenfly,
What makes you think recycling materials requires less energy than mining and will not harm the environment?
HOw do you propose to get the lithium out of cellphone batteries and the mercury out of the green light bulbs?
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Greenfly – you are the one who started the thread on (to quote you) “modern mining practices” being able to reinstate a site to “better than it was before” – January 31, 2010 at 4:37 PM
You are the one who compared making mining sites better when they have finished, to rape with a new dress.
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“My point is that some mining companies do a much better job than others at doing the least damage posible, and sometimes even improve things – and that this should be encouraged over bad mining practices.”
And my point is even with current regulation, bad miners like I refer to above are still the order of the day.
The mines that tend to operate within their consents are usually large, foreign owned, and have dedicated monitoring staff employed within. These Kiwi miners are smaller but relatively more damaging, it is death by paper cuts stuff.
I have VERY reliable sources with over 30years experience with these guys, you wouldn’t believe what they have got away with at times.
It doesn’t help of course that half both councils are miners.
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Shunda – there’s your leverage.
Get Brownlie to tell you how environmentally friendly mining can/should be, then compare the Greymouth proposal and ask why it is the exact opposite.
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Owen – I don’t say that recycling requires less energy than mining, however, electricity is a resource that can be extracted relatively harmlessly from the environment, where as mining is destructive and invasive, despite photonz1′s promise that the damage will be papered-over prettily.
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photonz1 – from now on I will write ‘he says, sarcastically’ so that you don’t leap to the wrong conclusion.
My ‘new dress’ analogy, on the other hand, is to be said with a serious voice. It’s certain that you don’t grasp my meaning.
The landscape is more than just ‘material clothed in pasture’. It’s nature is complex and poorly understood, especially by you, it would seem. Mining companies will dig, chew up, digest and spew up ‘that which lies below the surface’, pack it back down and drape a ‘new dress’ over it. It’s a blunt and ugly process, though it seems to satisfy some people, like yourself.
Not me.
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Photonz-
you appear to be suffering from the delusion that one bit of dirt is very much like another, once the ‘useful’ mineral(s) have been extracted. I’m concluding from this that you’re not a gardener.
Land useability is bound up in soil health – major earthworks can disturb or even completely remove decades of good humous development, impoverishing the land and limiting it’s practical use for as many decades as it takes to rebuild the soil density.
Mining tailings around the world are reknown for being sites of toxic waste and infertile ground, however ‘dressed up’ with a layer of ‘ready-lawn’ brought in to provide a pleasing aspect for tourists to view.
It does not replace the productivity of the land, and merely once more illustrates industrial destruction of the commons.
Shunda – commiserations on the tonsillitis/fever – not fun.
‘Fly – reaching for my ancient Mobil Guide to the South Island.
Not a cyclist these days, so will be looking at transport options with the rellies (Sth Cant’y)
Sounds like a plan, stan….
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katie – you’re completely wrong about the mines I gave as examples. The farmland is now much more productive than it was previously.
greenfly – mining companies won’t “dig, chew up, digest and spew up” the earth if we don’t buy things that their metals make.
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photonz1 – I don’t buy gold, yet the mining companies do
dig, chew up, digest and spew up the earth in search of the glistening stuff.
Yes?
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Katie – photonz (is that photograph New Zealand or photons in NZ ???)
through the Southern Lands.
Hasn’t a clue about integrity, has no feeling for it, so little will be gained by debating with it
Your “ancient Mobil Guide to the South Island” is a classic and the only way to travel. Don’t look for trains (extinct in the South, like the Moa), so a car will do nicely. If you are nearby, email me (talk to the Frog, the ears aren’t listening) and I’ll ease your passage
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greenfly – the computer you used to write that message will have a number of parts that contain gold. It’s in almost every common electronic device – cell phones, calculators etc.
What about copper, aluminium, steel, etc? Do you not use those either?
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So Photonz1 – are you saying that there’s not enough gold above ground right now that could be used in computers (minute quantities per computer) and that we need to mine more RIGHT NOW, especially from Cobden Island?
C
R
A
P
!
!
!
(answer please)
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If people want to pay large amounts of money for gold bling, or buy computers or cell phones or anything electrical, while people continue to get cancer, or want glass that has greater thermal qualities, or while there are countries whose people think it is important for their economy to have reserves in something other than worthless paper money, there will always be mining companies who will do everything they can to get gold (or copper iron, aluminium etc).
So why aren’t you attacking the people who buy gold, or computers, or cars, or tvs, or heat pumps, or countries who want economic stability?
Without this, no company in the world would be mining gold.
You didn’t answer about whether or not you use or buy goods that contain copper, steel, aluminium, etc (or oil, plastic etc).
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Why wouldn’t recycling a lithium battery require less energy than mining lithium? The problem is in gathering up lithium batteries without the rest of the stuff that normally comes with them, like old cell phones, computer mother boards, greeting cards, etc.
Gold and some other minerals are routinely extracted from ores with quite low metal content. Electronics probably have higher levels of such materials, so “mining” piles of scrap electronics would certainly be economical.
Of course separating the waste streams would help.
Trevor.
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Nicked!
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/3256811/Nick-Smith-faces-trial-in-June
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Fly
Lets hope that Smith is convicted and sent down for a long long time, the sooner he has nothing to do with running our country the better.
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Only if he’s guilty Bro!
Can we find room for Tolley in Nick’s container-cell if he is?
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Fly
No chance, I know this is an idea that you are not familiar with but Tolley and Key are doing what parents want, National standards are a great idea.
Actually, I hope that the teachers union fights this to the bitter end, for us to make any progress at all we need the government to smash the teachers union.
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Tolley andd Key are lying when the claim that they are supported by parents. Lying. If they did have the backing of parents, would Key have needed to launch his $200 000 pamphlet campaign to ‘educate’ parents, Bro? No, Bro, no!
$200 000 of your money btw, Bro. Your money!!!
all we need the government to smash the teachers union.
Yes, Bro, yes! That’s it in a nut-shell! Smash the teacher’s Unions!
Not raise education standards at all.
You’re being had.
Key and Tolley are lying.
You are supporting liers and their lies.
Bro.
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It’s the time of year to get your Hooters’ Calendar.
Go to:
http://www.joe-ks.com/hooterscalendar/
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Fly
The teachers union is not interested in raising education standards, they have said as much themselves.
Have no fair Fly, “change is a coming”, our kids are going to get the education they deserve.
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‘Fair Fly’ !
Bro!
You flatterer!
You’re a dill, but you’re a flatterer!
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Bro! I’ve had a revelation! You were right! 30% of the teachers were crap, at least at the time Gerry ‘Woodwork Teacher’ Brownlee was at the chalk-face. Gerry, with his enormous bulk, did represent 30% of the teaching force.
I take it all back!
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Did those who posted dislike on my reference to the Hooters’ Calender actually open the page?
For those who are afraid to go there the Hooters’ calender is published by the Orphaned Wildlife (OWL) Rehabilitation Society for Birds of Prey (www.owlcanada.ca) – a non-profit, charitable organization and education facility funded by your tax-deductible donations.
All proceeds from the sale of these calendars go to OWL.
Just a reminder that opinions should be based on evidence.
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They down vote any word or phrase they’ve been told not to like…..
“Cars” is a good one. “Roads”. “Truth About Global Warming”….etc
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Two people down-clicked you. Two !
You delicate flowers, BlooPeeta and Owen.
Two!
Devastating.
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LIke Climate science. It is not a numbers game.
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I am hardly a delicate flower.
I was hoping for a few Dislikes to make the point.
I would have been disappointed if everyone had liked the post.
A good sense of humour is much more protective than a thick skin.
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Owen – I visited your recommended site, laughed, got interested in the owls and didn’t down-vote you.
You were being ‘tricky’ though, eh!
Some people don’t like being tricked
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It’s a civil case. He’s being sued for defamation. So he hasn’t been nicked, and he can’t be convicted or sent down. I guess the worst that could happen is that he could end up bankrupt, but since a majority of our MPs have their assets hidden away in family trusts that’s unlikely to mean for him what it’d mean for most people.
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It’s quite easy…
“We need more roads to cope with the number of cars. Let’s face it, no one wants to use trains”.
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Fly; Apropos of nothing else it was Robbie Burns Birthday last week.
I was hit from behind by a flying Haggis but still managed a rendition of “Donal’ Where’s Yer Troosers?”!
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Mark; The Great chieftain o’ the pudding-race – from behind!
I’d not considered before that this might be you!
But Mark the Rustic, haggis-fed,
The trembling earth resounds his tread.
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