Anyone read this….> How do I know China wrecked the Copenhagen deal? I was in the roomAs recriminations fly post-Copenhagen, one writer offers a fly-on-the-wall account of how talks failed

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/dec/22/copenhagen-climate-change-mark-lynas

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

Thinking some more about this. This tension between socioenvironmental risk factors and individual agency is a common one in my own field of health. Models that set out to explain the pattern of health outcomes in the real world based on individual risk factors and choices completely fail. It is evident that by far the most important explanatory variables are risk environments (physical, social and economic). This same analysis applies to other areas of social policy. Not unreasonably. Green social policy sets out to improve health, education etc outcomes and so focuses on improving these environments.

However a purely deterministic model based only on these environments, while perhaps accounting for most of what is observed is still not wholly satisfactory. Community-based action to improve outcomes can also be a significant positive factor. Individual action can also sometimes transcend circumstances (although the logical error that many make is to assume that because one person is able to, all can. The film “Happyness” comes to mind).

There is certainly a line of political thought (espoused by ACT and others) that blames individual’s for their own negative outcomes, as SPC outlines, and which is clearly nonsense. I’m not sure this is what Shunda is arguing however. To me the question he poses (correct me if I’m wrong!) is: allowing for all of the forces beyond a person’s control, what should social policy say or do to facilitate good choices about those factors that are not beyond that person’s control?

An example dear to my own heart is physical activity. Almost everyone could undertake a level of physical activity that would be good for them and good for the State. It will be harder for some than others – much harder in some cases – but almos always possible. How could social policy facilitate more physical activity?

Greens would typically respond with options like ensuring everone has a range of opportunities, social marketing, role models etc. It seems to me Shunda that you would agree with all that, but maybe that you would say that there should be adverse consequences from the State if positive action is not taken. We would support that a bit too (e.g. increased tax on alcohol, cigarettes, sugary drinks). Have I got your argument right Shunda?

And the religious aspect of that which I am curious about is the “go and sin no more”. Surely the lesson we are asked to draw from that story is that Jesus thought that other people ought not to judge or punish a person for their life choices; that instead this was a matter for individual conscience and for God i.e. that it’s God’s place, not ours, to say “go and sin no more”. If that’s the case, isn’t that an argument for supporting social policy that is supportive and facilitative, but which doesn’t punish individuals who don’t make good life choices?

Like or Dislike: 1  0 (+1)

“I suspect that Shundra has the perception that poverty is the result of personal life failure and that a (religious) conversion from that personal “moral” failure is required for the intervention to be successful.”

Poverty is not always the result of an individuals “moral” failure but it often is in NZ. If you think I am moralising by suggesting that an able bodied adult capable of working should do so, I think you are being unreasonable. As far as religious conversion being the only mechanism for change I think you are just attempting to make my reasonable position seem more religiously motivated. People can change destructive behaviour for a number of reasons, you seem to be suggesting that to require them to do so for ANY reason is unjust.

“It is the same underlying premise as of the old idea of middle class Christian charity to the underclass of lower moral fibre and is in sinc with the recent development of advocacy for faith based provider welfare reform (promoted by John Paul 11 as subsidiarity) that is apparently is being considered by Bill English as an extension of the whanau ora concept.”

Not even familiar with any of this so clearly not a motivation of mine.

“I note a consistency – seeing the Green cause as a rival idealism/belief to Christianity ”

Not a necessary rival though, the frustrating thing is that there is so much in common yet so little co-operation between these two groups, imagine the people power if the church made environmentalism a righteous issue (which I think it is).

“Under this criticism of left wing universal social provision no credit for achievements such as reduced unemployment, reduced child poverty, an increased minimum wage, a 4th week annual leave, parental leave, free health care for children, income related rents, the Gold Card can be made – even though this occured while reducing public debt and building up the Savings Fund and Kiwi Saver etc.”

You could say these things are part of the “laws” of the left, the foundational “belief” system. And as such these areas can also become “legalistic” just like with the Church “laws”. The laws or principles become the thing that people worship to the detriment of the people that they are supposed to serve, that is why I said Labour had caused social stagnation despite theoretical achievements , they were beginning to lose touch with the reality of the people they were serving.

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

“Shunda, Mouse and co: Real Christianity ended in 325 AD at the Council of Nicea when emperor Constentine pasted pieces of all pagan religions onto the the Christian doctrine to create the Roman Church.”

This is a fringe conspiracy theory, nothing more.
The bible is regarded as one of the most accurate of ancient texts by almost all historians. You seem to be confusing my position with that of the Catholic church, I am not a Catholic.

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

I suspect that Shundra has the perception that poverty is the result of personal life failure and that a (religious) conversion from that personal “moral” failure is required for the intervention to be successful.

It is the same underlying premise as of the old idea of middle class Christian charity to the underclass of lower moral fibre and is in sinc with the recent development of advocacy for faith based provider welfare reform (promoted by John Paul 11 as subsidiarity) that is apparently is being considered by Bill English as an extension of the whanau ora concept.

I note a consistency – seeing the Green cause as a rival idealism/belief to Christianity (some see environment sustainability as paganism limiting human capitalist dominion) and universal “socialist” provision as a rival to “conditional” Christian grace (beneficiary codes or poor laws).

Under this criticism of left wing universal social provision no credit for achievements such as reduced unemployment, reduced child poverty, an increased minimum wage, a 4th week annual leave, parental leave, free health care for children, income related rents, the Gold Card can be made – even though this occured while reducing public debt and building up the Savings Fund and Kiwi Saver etc.

I go into these wider areas because it is generally government intervention which is opposed on the grounds that government, not being interested in managing the individual person’s life, is somehow not the means to provide the “right” change to society.

Like or Dislike: 1  0 (+1)

Shunda, Mouse and co: Real Christianity ended in 325 AD at the Council of Nicea when emperor Constentine pasted pieces of all pagan religions onto the the Christian doctrine to create the Roman Church. From then on it became a legalistic organisation, and not very democratic as all other gospels (Christian and pagan) that didn’t make it in the New Testament were burnt through out the Roman Empire.

In the East this brand of christianity was unacceptable mainly because of the suvival of these gospals (the ones excluded) namely Nag Hamadi, Qumran etc.and the Judas gospel found in Egypt recently.

It is very enlightening to read this history and it makes one realise just how warped some modern churches have gone.

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

Mouse – good point about population. Interesting tie-in to the social justice dimensions too, as the evidence is that the most effective ways of reducing population growth internationally are to address poverty and marginalisation (you know: educate women, restore means to grow food etc)as well as to provide ready and free access to condoms. I’ve had some great working relationships with Catholics over the years who espouse liberation theology, and indeed with one particular wonderful nun who was a great help in our HIV prevention work, including improving access to condoms. I don’t hold our much hope for doctrinal change with ex-Cardinal Ratzinger on the papal throne, but there are a good many Catholics working towards good outcomes even so.

Shunda – thanks very much for your response, which I found very interesting. I see Green social policy as principally addressing structural disadvantage, so that the opportunity for quality of life is fairly shared. In this we are motivated by an understanding that an individual’s “life choices” are principally determined by the situation of the community to which they belong, which in turn is the result of social and economic forces. Thus we focus on those social and economic forces. Your approach seems to focus more on the individual person and the nature of the choices they make (allowing for the constraints that apply). Is that a fair characterisation?

Like or Dislike: 1  0 (+1)

Kevin said:

“4. It’s the question of Green Party social policy where I am most intrigued by your religious perspective Shunda. As I say, we have many Christians in the Party and (I hope they will correct me if I have this wrong!) they support our social policy from their faith basis, on the grounds that the New Testament repeatedly carries injunctions from Christ to look after one another (you know, Sermon on the Mount, do unto others etc). It seems a logical step to support a social policy aimed at reducing social and economic inequalities and looking after the weakest (as Savage said “what is there more important in Christianity than to be our brothers’ keepers in reality?”) So what is the social policy approach that your Christian faith would lead you to support Shunda?”

Ok, this is where things get more difficult.

I agree with all of the ideals you just mentioned but it is in the application of those ideals that things get confused. To answer your question properly I have to give you some back ground to my own faith based beliefs, I am NOT trying to preach.

In Christianity (in my experience anyway) I have witnessed a constant tension between “legalism” and “grace”. Legalism develops from a religious zeal for the scriptures and an inability to see the bigger picture. It leads people to burden themselves with impossible ideals and is basically the essence of “hell fire and brimstone” Christianity, it is all rules and no grace, it often creates some very hard people. Jesus confronted this in his dialogue with the Pharisees.
Grace on the other hand is the essence of the Gospel teachings of Christ, it is the mechanism that leads people to a full pardon from their “sins”. Jesus spoke about grace as a way to be free of the impossible burden of idealistic religious zealotry.
However the grace message can get confused,the problem with the misguided “grace” teachings of some is that it never leads people to a positive change in their lives, they feel so free of judgement that they lose motivation to rid themselves of destructive behaviour.
Jesus attained a balance beautifully with the woman caught in adultery, the Pharisees wanted to stone her because she had broken the “law”, Jesus seeing the bigger picture intervened by saying “he who is without sin cast the first stone” they couldn’t argue with him and left. Jesus said to the woman “where are they? did no one condemn you? she said “no Lord” to which he replied “I do not condemn you either. Go. From now on sin no more”
The key bit is the last sentence.

So where am I going with all this? basically there are political doctrines that you could interpret as “legalistic” or “gracious”.
While I think there is some strong “legalistic” tendencies in the green movement I would say it is overwhelmingly towards the “grace” side of things as far as social policy goes. The problem is perhaps the Greens forget the “go and sin no more” part. It is great to help the poor and the unemployed, but to fail to identify the reasons for their position is in effect killing them with kindness.
Everybody needs to be given grace for sure, but grace is given for a purpose- to lead you to the truth in a way that you can realistically do something about your problems.
I see much of the Green type social policy as denying people the conviction that will ultimately set them free from their burden.
For example, Sue Bradford is all about the underdog which is great, few people more so than her, but the whole ideology behind it seems to be that all these people need is the “grace” and not the conviction to change.
It is only half of the equation, it is like putting people on morphine and saying you are cured. All you end up with is a whole lot of people dependant on morphine!! Much of the human rights issues are very similar, I think there was (just quietly) some valid points that Sue makes for the S59 thing, I think it was about trying to free children from legalistic authority, the problem is, now it is over “graced” which will only encourage lawlessness as legitimate authority has also been lost in the process, there is no balance with the current law.
So while I can support the intention of much of the greens policy I can not support the application.
It seems to me that the previous Labour Govt proved my position, after a decade in power all they did was cause social welfare stagnation, people were not really better off at the end of their leadership despite some very buoyant economic times. This from a party with similar policy to the greens and supposedly about helping the little guy.

So you see Kevin it is not because I am some raging capitalist Christian or hard hearted towards the disadvantaged, I just want to make sure we are actually achieving the purpose of all social policy – to actually help people better themselves and the communities they live in.

Sincerely
Shunda

Like or Dislike: 2  0 (+2)

Kevin said:
“Shunda, perhaps you might like to say whether or not you have relevant scientific qualifications that allow you to evaluate the scientific evidence directly? Or is it, as I think you may have already said, more the case that you have formed your opinion about climate change on the basis of the trust you have in various commentators?”

I don’t have relevant qualifications in these fields, but I have had a keen interest in science since I was a kid. In certain areas feel I have an above average grasp of the processes involved, but agree with you that most of my understanding has come from what others have written. The thing is, the more you learn the more you are able to instinctively pick where truth is likely to lie in a given issue. Good scientists are able to communicate the “gist’ of an issue so that the layman is able to understand to the same degree as the scientist himself. I guess I feel I have enough understanding in certain areas that I can pick something that doesn’t seem to add up, if AGW is in fact true perhaps I am in need of a bit more information to process. The problem is, I am very wary of the massive political motivations of many regarding this issue, it is hard to feel motivated to do more study when the bullsh!t meter is registering off the chart! I am a sceptic of AGW however I am not in denial that humans are rapidly stuffing the planet which requires urgent attention.

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

Kevin

There are Christians (especially in the USA) who see charity as a good thing but state socialism as wrong, thus they oppose public health care. This extends to other areas of provision to the people.

These Christians would oppose the Green Party’s social and economic policy on this ground.

Like or Dislike: 2  0 (+2)

Kevin – Good post… One point though…”I’m struggling to see any connection between climate change and religion (or lack thereof).”

I’m a Catholic [or so my parents tell me so!] and I’m not a member of the Green Party… but personaly I can see a connect between Climate change and population… and Population and Contraception… and

I think the Pope has a leadership opportunity here[aparently he's the only chap on earth that can whisper into big fella's ear]… but personaly, I expect the inertia of Catholic Inc. to take… oooh maybe 300 years to forgive me for slapping a rubber on the ol’ fella every time Mrs mouse looks at me with the Goo goo eyes.

I can see the connect between religion and climate change…The purpose of some some religion is simply control where prior to their existance there was none… these are different times…evolution is always important.

Like or Dislike: 2  0 (+2)

Hi Drakula – well, I could but don’t particularly. Certainly the virgin birth is a stretch
‘Profit philosopher’ is a wee gem, and I’m calling the expected and feared environmental collapse, ‘Farmergeddon”.

Like or Dislike: 3  0 (+3)

Hi Greenfly I don’t think that you could doubt the existence of the historical Jesus or Jeshua as he was known then but the Christians claim to His messiahship under todays forensic evidence may be totally discredited. Namely Mary’s claim of virgin birth. Read the Jesus Family Tomb and associated books I can’t recall the authors now.

I think that this issue is important in todays context as I think it most likely that the final DNA tests will prove the ‘Second Coming’ a superstition.
Jesus will be seen as rightfully a profit philosopher and a lot of Christians will be focussing more on the environmental disaster which, of course is the real Armageddon.

BJ ‘we replace the NZ dollar with a redeemable currency’I very much agree, now could we not go further and replace all currencies with a redeemable curreny based on the value of the basic wage.

Capitalist wouldn’t be globe trotting for the cheapest slave wage labour, which is what is happening now.

Like or Dislike: 2  0 (+2)

1. I am not “anti-Christian”, and while I haven’t thought hard about it, I can’t readily identify anyone in the Green Party who could be described thus.

Not that I mean to support the paranoia, but I can think of a few people employed by the party at the national level whom are and are open about it. Mind you I’ve already got in messes for repeating conversations with one of those individuals.

Like or Dislike: 0  2 (-2)

There is more evidence that Jesus was an actual living person than there is for Julius Caesar greenfly.

Which doesn’t prove a thing, of course. How about showing us some of that evidence?

Like or Dislike: 2  0 (+2)

Like or Dislike: 3  0 (+3)

Sunda said ‘As long as this dishonest behaviour continues I will be a sceptic, how can anybody honestly trust these people?
I linked to a Wikipedia article some time ago that had changed the scale on a graph to smooth out solar activity, I only spotted it because I had a pre-existing knowledge of the actual data.’

Thank you Shunda for this observation. But please – can you clarify was the actual scale on the graph changed or was the data falsified ??

I am sure that if you have any understanding of these issues the difference between these should be very clear to you.
I anticipate your answer with great interest.

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

One of them’s Kenyan, I believe, I believe!
Must do tea sometime Mark.

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

ie; you don’t think Dubbya’s praying for his “Army of Compassion” in Iraq a trifle ironic?
Will check the Library for JC’s Birth Cert when I’m home – there were probably three of ‘em I reckon…..

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

There is more than One Dog;
Shunda: I’ve been wondering why you feel a Pollie’s Religeous Determinations a public matter?
Or why does it matter to you?

I know you Kiwi’s are in love with discrimination But;
I would be more interested in a persons motivations and qualifications for the job

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)