Annie doesn’t think much of cubicles. Key’s mutterings there too (When Key speaks, my ears puke).

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0912/S00103.htm

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Thanks. I do find myself agreeing with the Greens stance on animal issues quite often, however I’m not involved in this industry, so my knowledge of it is light.

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If you want to go down the path of research, there has been plenty on other forms of stock, free range with adequate cover when they want it and stock does very well.
Same goes for best time to milk, the cows prefer to be milked around midnight. Do you know of many dairy farmers that milk then Blue???
A friend of mine did research on the cover over several years via MAF, but that would mean less grass for the cows……

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here are people here who have worked with cows, spelling it out for you, but in your ivory-tower manner, you insist on ’seeing the studies’.

Well, I have first hand experience of weather, but I’m guessing you’d rather listen to the IPCC. Rightly so, probably, even thought I disagree with the IPCC.

I understand what they are saying about cows. Sounds plausible to me, however it would be easy enough to prove this, surely. Like the study I cited with two minutes of “research”.

Would make your case 100% water-tight, in terms of the animal welfare angle, wouldn’t it?

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very interesting to find that blue peter comes here for his research consultations; yet I wonder where he stands on the predominant issue of all factory herd farmers — to wit, the cow is a machine.. and must therefore be treated as a machine.. repaired from time to time as a machine.. retired into recycling (meat, glew, hide, whatever) as a machine..

for as a machine any moral sense arising from life and living upon our planet can be dispensed with..

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I think it’s time Blue went on a tour of dairy farms.

A dairy farm may have an excellent hedge row that provides great shelter from the elements for the stock. What do dairy farmers do? They get the dozer in and knock it down, that space will provide grass for another .6 of a cow. That is all they care about.
Money rules the industry, and that starts at the top via Fonterra. They are a dog company to work for. The whole industry is the same. I worked on dairy farms when I was younger, and I’ve worked on construction for Fonterra. If you think any of them care about anything apart from money you have some learning to do.
When it comes to land care and stock care the minimum is done, if they can cut a corner and get away with it they will.

I do see some dairy farms well run of course, the herd size seems to be around 400-500 tops, these small dairy farms do seem to be more in tune with the stock and the land compared to these big plants.

Go do six months on a cow farm and see what you think at the end of it.

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“Well, it should.”

I quite agree.

In the abscence of any real info from the applicants we can assume the minimum standard they will have to meet will be the animal welfare act 99, and I believe housing animals as described fails on the grounds of not allowing cows the “opportunity to display normal patterns of behaviour” under section 10 though I can’t find anything that specifically talks about cows or dairy farming.

cows, like other herding animals, naturally develop pecking orders and for this to happen they need a certain amount of space to be able to avoid getting in the way of those above them. I think when cows are packed in in much larger numbers than is usual, there will certainly be far more stresses relating to contesting the pecking order. This is the case for almost every other species of mammal from lemmings to monkeys to humans.

I can’t imagine them exhibiting natural behaviour in such a manifestly unnatural environment.

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heh no one’s even bothered to down-vote because they realise this conversation is such a trainwreck that it’s pointless even reading it enough to vote. maybe that’s what BP wants

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BluePeter! Are you Peter Dunne??!!????

You reason just like him!!!

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BP – it’s funny to hear you demanding to see studies which prove whether indoor life or outdoor life suits cows better. Have you no common sense at all? If ever there was a case of someone failing to see the wood, because of the trees, this case that you are quibbling over would be it.
There are people here who have worked with cows, spelling it out for you, but in your ivory-tower manner, you insist on ‘seeing the studies’. It’s a bit embarassing to watch, I’m bound to say.

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The problem is BP that the RMA does not specify much about the conditions the cows will be kept in.

Well, it should.

you pen them up for any length of time they are certainly more stressed than when allowed to roam

Again, that sounds plausible to me. But it would be interesting to see studies along the lines of the one I mentioned above. My hunch – and of course I could be wrong – is that cows prefer a mixed environment. Many animals appear to, except for my cat, which prefers inside to out, particularly the roofspace.

all the external food that is brought in – millions of tons a year – and water that is diverted is going to come out of the cow as mostly poo and some milk. So we’re taking water out of the catchment and adding in tons and tons of nutrients.

Again, that feels right, also.

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“There doesn’t appear to much in the way in the way of reasoned answers, however.”

The problem is BP that the RMA does not specify much about the conditions the cows will be kept in. have you ever been anywhere near a cow, bp? I have milked my fair share, having grown up on a dairy farm and I can tell you that when they’re free to roam in a well-grassed paddock they will wander around all day, spread out, socialise and generally be pretty contented. when you pen them up for any length of time they are certainly more stressed than when allowed to roam, in my humble opinion.

I don’t think the main argument is the animal cruelty one however, the environmental impact and the impact on NZ’s dairy brand are the one’s that will be more important to NZ. these farmers will be stealing profits from the rest of NZ’s dairy farmers in the form of lower milk prices from our compromised brand image.

all the external food that is brought in – millions of tons a year – and water that is diverted is going to come out of the cow as mostly poo and some milk. So we’re taking water out of the catchment and adding in tons and tons of nutrients. in addition to the emissions costs of shipping the food in and milk out (largely paid for by the taxpayers) there can only be a major negative impact on the environment from this imbalance. and the profits are all going to offshore investors so win win win for NZ.

there must be better places to farm…

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Tell you what BP, how about you go live in the barn with the cows and conduct your side of the debate from there.

Which would prove what? In the video I linked to above, it looked rather pleasant.

a greater impact than putting 18,000 ruminants there

You may well be right, but lets see the plans and figures. The McKenzie basin isn’t exactly small.

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an inconclusive trial consisting of 12 cows is your evidence that 7000 cows are going to be healthy kept indoors for 8 months of the year? Do you think what you see in that video looks anything like what 7000 cows kept indoors will look like?

No, that’s why I was asking. But it seems that no one can produce any better research which proves it’s a bad thing. I don’t know if it’s a good thing or a bad thing, so my first port of call is to consult the research.

I agree with you that most New Zealanders including myself do not live sustainably but the writing is pretty clearly on the wall that we should be trying to become more sustainable, not less.

I agree in the sense that we can’t possibly live an unsustainable existence, or humans wouldn’t be here.

I guess we need to define terms. What does “sustainable” actually mean?

you are kicking a dead cow defending this BP…

I’m not defending it. I’m asking questions. There doesn’t appear to much in the way in the way of reasoned answers, however.

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“I guess that’s debatable”

Tell you what BP, how about you go live in the barn with the cows and conduct your side of the debate from there.

If you’re really “talking about minimising impact” how can you argue that this proposal minimises impact in any way? Short of turning the MacKenzie basin into an open-cast mine you couldn’t really have a greater impact than putting 18,000 ruminants there.

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BP “IF the cow isn’t particularly bothered (in all respects) about option A or B”

an inconclusive trial consisting of 12 cows is your evidence that 7000 cows are going to be healthy kept indoors for 8 months of the year? Do you think what you see in that video looks anything like what 7000 cows kept indoors will look like?

it seems to me that there is no real accurate description of the conditions the cows are going to be kept in and given the history of the applicant for cutting corners its safe to guess that he’s not going to be spending extra money on any creature comforts for these animals.

as for the sustainability:

“How so? Aren’t you unproductive unless distance inputs like food, electricity, furniture, and telecommunications are “applied” to you?”

sure, but there is only one of me not 7000 and I’m not crapping in the MacKenzie basin.

I agree with you that most New Zealanders including myself do not live sustainably but the writing is pretty clearly on the wall that we should be trying to become more sustainable, not less. The profits coming out of these cows will go to a group of people in another country but the price paid by the rest of us in terms of water pollution, emissions and deforestation for palm kernal feed will be shared by all.

you are kicking a dead cow defending this BP…

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This would mean the destruction of the whole dairy industry in New Zealand!

No, it wouldn’t. The very fact you walk this earth, Greenfly, means you create an impact on the environment. YOU damage it by your very presence.

So, we’re not talking about zero impact. We’re talking about minimising impact.

What is an acceptable level? I guess that’s debatable, huh.

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“As for the water issue, how about linking his permission to operate to water purity? i.e. if analysis shows water quality has degraded by X due to his operations, then he loses his licence to operate?”

Yes! Yes, Blue! That’s it!

Now, let’s apply that standard to dairy farming in general …

Hang on …!!! This would mean the destruction of the whole dairy industry in New Zealand!

BluePeter! You extremist, you!

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I would rather see a bond equal to the value of the stock farm paid before permission is given.

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As for the water issue, how about linking his permission to operate to water purity? i.e. if analysis shows water quality has degraded by X due to his operations, then he loses his licence to operate?

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