by Jeanette Fitzsimons
Tomorrow the Greens will launch a new initiative telling Good Farm Stories from around the country. There’s plenty of good farmers pioneering new ideas to make farming more sustainable, and we’re keen to tell New Zealand about them.
As the Greens’ agriculture spokesperson I’ve been visiting farms regularly this year and I’ve written up my reflections on 18 of these visits. There’s great stuff going on down on the farm, and I thought it was time some of these stories got out. They include clever innovations, quality animal husbandry, excellent protection of waterways and biodiversity, reduced pesticide use, and lots of pride and pleasure in running a good farm.
I’m no stranger to gumboots, gorse and grumpy rams – I run my own farm with my husband in the Coromandel. But every farm I visited I found something new – new ideas, new inspiration and new friends.
So I think it is time New Zealanders heard more about the Good Farms Stories happening in their countryside – too often the focus gravitates to the issues of conflict, pollution or bad farming practice. But for every Crafar farm disaster there’s ten good farmers doing good stuff and I’m keen to highlight their stories, their experiences and their contribution to keeping New Zealand clean and green.
So tomorrow at 1pm I’ll launch the Greens’ Good Farm Stories initiative. You’ll find it off our homepage tomorrow.
Here’s a sample from a Horsham Downs dairy farm just north of Hamilton:
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Jenny on the walkway around the lake
“When we started here, the ducks were in the water troughs and the cows were in the lake”, says Jenny.
None of the farm’s drains now discharge directly into the lake, but go through silt traps and then percolate through the wetland fringes of the lake. Now, the lake is covered with water fowl that don’t stray on to the farm because there is so much food for them in the restored habitat. The ducks stay on the lake, and the cows stay out of it.
Andrew and Jenny were prepared for a drop in production because of the five hectares no longer in grazing, but this has not occurred. The slower release of water into the lake means the pastures uphill dry out more slowly in the summer, and the silt captured from the traps and spread on the farm returns a number of minerals that improve fertility.
A key milestone [for the farm] was entering the Ballance Farm Environment Awards in 2004. While they didn’t win the main farm award, they won the restoration award. Andrew says they learned a lot, and shortly after were given the 2007 Green Ribbon rural sustainability award, by the Minister for the Environment. The encouragement this provided was very important.
Many thanks to Jenny and Andrew for their warm hospitality – and congratulations for taking a big step towards sustainability.
UPDATE: http://www.goodfarmstories.org.nz is live!
Published in Environment & Resource Management | Featured by Jeanette Fitzsimons on Wed, November 25th, 2009
Tags: dairy farming, green party new zealand, Horsham Downs
More posts by Jeanette Fitzsimons | more about Jeanette Fitzsimons
on the trolls and those who are unable to keep on topic
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Farmergeddon? that sounds ominous – what are the details? MOnbiot seems concerned too…
http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2009/11/16/if-nothing-else-save-farmin g/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email
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Excellent.
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Brilliant, thanks Jeanette!
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Promte plant based farming systems and we are on the same page. Too often the greens are trying to be “Mainstream” rather than representing the small minority of forward thinkers, who dont have a voice, which is what the greens used to be. You/we will never be mainstream, people just dont care enough on voting day, they just want the “LabourNational”, or “NationalLabour” party to not get in, besides their policies being very similar in comparison to the greens.
Dont forget about the little guys, us “freaks” that have no-one to vote for, who want a world of equality not bloodshed for profit.
Say NO to dairy. Dairy means forced pregnancy, GE, and young animals ripped from their mothers time and time again, for profit and cheese.
Fast forward to the end game. We are not mainstream, we are pathfinders.
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AaronC,
We could “Fast forward to the end game”, as a party, but what would that achieve? Would that reduce the number of forced pregnancies or calves ripped from their mums?
You have to be in the system to change the system.
I agree with your philosopies as stated above.
I also understand that NZ sells milk for computers (for example), and we like computers.
Change will happen in incremental steps.
What would you think of a dairy farm with impecable animal welfare standards, natural mating, grass based diet (with no GE) and calves left on the cows until weaning? Without describing an entire hypothetical farm, is there any dairy farm that would be acceptable to you?
I think it’s a long way from us eating ‘processed grass patties’ ourselves, but I think it will happen. In the meantime, New Zealand needs a credible pollitical party (with enough seats to have some power)to find and show the path forward.
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Damn I wrote a long post but the formatting errors killed it. Sorry I dont have time to fix it
Sorry
Good luck
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Aaron certainly underlines what you are saying Fin.
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Aaron. I like what you said. Seeking the middle-ground means, in the case of dairying, prolonging the problem. A ‘good’ dairy farm, on the scale of our farms here, in the manner that they are run?
No.
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pt1 fin says:
We could “Fast forward to the end game”, as a party, but what would that achieve? Would that reduce the number of forced pregnancies or calves ripped from their mums?
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Aaron Says:
Possibly, if we can break free of this peasant farmer mentality, where we serve other developed nations (currently in a GE non-organic manner I might add). People listen to leaders. If leaders such as our Greens say dairy is good, the mainstream will think dairy is inherently a good thing, will raise their glasses and more blood will uneccessarily shed while farmers seek ways to ruin the land without ruining it all at once. And no doubt failing at that too.
Pt2 Fin says:
You have to be in the system to change the system.
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Aaron says:
Yes and we have been in the system for quite some time now, and drifting towards mainstreamism we will have to compete with the big 2, all the time culling our varied and diverse fringe support networks. We are not the big two, we are the edge- the forward thinkers, tha pathfinders. We have everything to lose being mainstream. literally.
Pt3 Fin says
I agree with your philosopies as stated above.
I also understand that NZ sells milk for computers (for example), and we like computers.
Aaron Says
We should’ve been a knowledge economy all along, and I dont mean GE frankenscience (which is still all about dairy, and some serious animal suffering I can ASSURE you at this point-AgResearch!). It should be us selling our intelligence overseas. I do it, I don’t see why the rest of us cannot. To strive to be a peasant to an overseas master means that all we will ever hope to be is peasants.
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pt3 Fin says:
Change will happen in incremental steps.
What would you think of a dairy farm with impecable animal welfare standards, natural mating, grass based diet (with no GE) and calves left on the cows until weaning? Without describing an entire hypothetical farm, is there any dairy farm that would be acceptable to you?
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Aaron Says:
Welfarism implies you can enslave exploit and kill fellow mammals and they will gleefully oblige. If this were the case we would still have slaves, and they would experience impeccable welfare, and we would all accept it as a satifactory utopia, would we not? Forget welfare, the way we treat others is a RIGHTS issue. We’ve sorted equal rights, womens rights, and we have the ability to adress animal rights also. Welfare should be a given, we should be debating animal rights, not animal welfare. We dont need millions of animals living miserable lives, so lets lead a way out of this ethical mess. Yes US. The Greens, the forward thinkers, the carers. Or not?
At a core practical level we in New Zealand agriculture need to preserve our topsoils, our “Natural Capital” and dairy farming directly compacts topsoil, which prevents aeration and dehydrates the soil (despite sucking rivers dry and ruining drinking water in the process) and we have emmission issues, pollution issues, serious massive erosion, not to mention the fact that most humans are actually intolerant to dairy. Its not natural to suck the teat of a cow, unless you’re a calf. Dairy is ruining this country,and its a cash crop. Whilst as a party we dont need to “run-it-down” we certainly have NO place promoting nor endorsing it. Its a waste of printer ink, readers and writers time. The only way to nurture Natural Capital(topsoil) is through NON-intenstive cropping, permaculture-philosophy, and aqua-terraculture, which is about farming the water in the land as the primary concern. Say no to dairy. Its wrong in so many ways. Its in no way ever going to be sustainable, nor ethical.
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pt4 fin says:
I think it’s a long way from us eating ‘processed grass patties’ ourselves, but I think it will happen. In the meantime, New Zealand needs a credible pollitical party (with enough seats to have some power)to find and show the path forward.
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Aaron says:
Its taken a long time to get this far, and we have a long way to go. When we get there, we need messages that have endured the journey well, and still offer a solid path into the future. We are the pathfinders. The greens are not peasants. Let the pathfinders guide the peasants to a brighter safer happier future, not endorse their fundamentally flawed goals of cash cropping (cash cowing) a land that evolved without ever being trampled by such giant mammals. Our land is not designed for it, and once its gone its gone.
We need leadership that will lead us well into the future, that endures the ethical, environmental, health and sustainability debates that our peasant mentality will forever plague us with. Enough with the round in circles, its expensive, pointless and hoplessly depressing. Think end-game. Say a profound NO to dairy, get this society off the meat train, and lets seriously start discussing sustainability and pride in the long term.
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I think this is a brilliant idea, this is exactly what the greens should be about.
Come on Greens!! more sustainability stuff like this, more, more I say!!
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The purpose of which should be to explain the optimum way of farming and to identify where we fall short of this standard. Then to propose ways to ensure the standard is raised to this optimum (regualatory framework requiring other farmers to raise their game to the level reached by some).
This will mean better “sustainable” soil (less nitrogen used) and improved waterways (restraint on dairying on sand near waterways etc)and lower emmissions. Global leadership on environmental farming (this goes with increased investment on ag research and other science) which adds knowledge capital which we can export.
This is where the Green Party has a place within the political system – demanding a sustainable economy operating within a sustainable environment.
And sorry Aaron C, that means that the argument against dairy farming and meat farming itself remains a moral or ideological argument which assists in realising the above political goal. It will ensure that the wider public, who will not accept this challenge to the status quo, will at least go along with better farm practice – including animal welfare.
Thus Greens are not some sect outside the system crying doom if the world will not repent, but an active force for real change in the here and now.
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1. resign as his brilliant methodology has ultimately undermined him, and he realises he not a painter at all, or
2. To nullify his previous efforts and hope his paying clients (the voters) dont mind if he dirties up all his previous efforts in order to start anew, in the hopes that he can convince them to pay again for a completely different job, that is supposed to do what he initially set out to do.
Sustainability and Dairy farming ultimately do not belong in the same sentence. Whether you have ten cows or one in the same field, you will still poison your soil, you are occupying (a great deal of) land that could be put to better use, you will take water from the well and poison it for our drinking and then after forcing what equates to a sexual assault upon the gentle mother of all beings you will rip away her nurtured young with brutality and cruelty, only to die some horrific nightmarish death that few could stomach to witness. And then when the gentle cow has served her purpose and youve taken babies and milk from her year after year, you will discard her as worthless not fit for even the peasants back paddock.
Our friend the cow.
But you know better, how to commit these attrocities in a way such that there is no such attrocity, there is death without dying, the poisoning of the well shall miraculously poison it not, for the vision in your mind is so profound and clear, its as though GOD spoke and was lucid.
Well it aint like that. You dirty your nest with your profiteering ideaology, and you dirty mine.
You still champion dragging animals though it, parasites upon their unwilling helpless backs.
I say nay.
This parasitic ideology is STILL profit driven, and bad people will STILL gain from the immorral acts of pedalling flesh and blood.
Leave the animals alone, they exist in this world for reasons beyond their bodyparts market value. Wheres the leadership gone around here?
Seriously Greens, wheres the vision gone from this party? Wheres the hope? The radical spark that used to push us toward wanting better? For ALL beings? As soon as we achieve this wonderful welfarist utopia of guilt free stupidity cruelty and mess, whats next? Is this what we really want?
Endgame. Endgame NOW. At least put it in your/our sights, so that we can actually give the people a new hope. Yes it WILL be different. VERY different. Its been a long time coming and needed more each waking day.
When the people realise this and that the greens dont offer this “dream’ anymore, what will happen?
Nothing.
Nothing will happen.
Nothing at all. It’s business as usual, a shame what those hippies said back in ‘09 about being vegan and soil and water conservation. Its a shame they were right but its too late now.
Sound familiar? Yet? Only I’m more concerned about animal exploitation, not environmental/ecological/societal/climatical/moral degradation.
Be nice to animals. Show some heart people, show some love. Give a damn.
Get real about it already.
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Your theoretical farm AaronC doesn’t exist. To argue that a cow even in a sustainable number such as 5-6 doesn’t belong on a true self-sustaining farm is an absurdity and clear indication that you don’t understand sustainable farming.
A truly sustainable 5-10 acre farm should include a diverse range of crops along with a diverse range of animals all functioning in a symbiotic way. You know kind of like how nature works.
This includes chickens, pig’s sheep, goats and cows. All of them can and do serve a valuable purpose on a farm.
As an example it is far easier to feed vegetable scraps to an animal and have them produce manure which you then place onto your compost heap than to just dump those vegetable scraps onto the compost heap in the first place. Good luck trying to make compost using only vegetable waste.
If you’re worried about soil compaction, let loose the pigs of war. They will soon uproot and plow that field.
Good farming includes the use of both animals and vegetable, it includes understanding your land and working with it not against it, it includes soil management and compost management and animal management along with crop and animal rotation management.
You are more than welcome to your Vegan-Nazism but all your ism’s your ideological thinking about how you think the world should be is not going to help you when you’re standing in the middle of your field wondering why nothing is growing.
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Should? Could, perhaps, but should have chickens, pigs, sheep, goats and cows?
I think not.
Such a farm could easily function and thrive without the animals you describe. You overlook the value of the more important farm fauna – the ‘little guys’ that build soil, the worms, microfauna, flying insects, even birds that visit. Compost making using only vegetable matter? Easy and effective, if you understand that ‘vegetable matter’ includes carbon rich, stalky dry matter, as well as the ‘kitchen scraps’ you envisaged, along with barks, herbs and the billions of little organisms that do the work of turning the ‘heap’ into compost.
Compacted ground? Sow daikons. Their deep roots will break up soil as well as any pig.
I don’t think Aaron will end up standing in the middle of his field wondering why nothing is growing. My fields are flourishing and we’ve not a pig, cow or llama in sight! Our fauna count is pretty high though!
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george bernard shaw warned us about this in the 1930’s..
(when asked:..’what should we/nz do..?’..)
saying our twin concentrations on being a foodbasket for europe..
..and tourism..
was a disasterous course..
and would guarantee we would be nothing more than a nation..
of ‘peasants’..and ’servants’..
(that would seem to have come to pass..eh..?)
and still no real ‘direction’..eh..?
lost at the bottom of the world..
and killing our environment..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Carbon????
What are you talking about Greenfly, when making compost carbon is the least of your problems. When talking about soil carbon is also the least of your problems.
Try Nitrogen, Phosphorus, Potassium, Calcium etc. I trust you are applying these to your soils.
As to your own examples please come back and post in 25 years time.
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Why do you suggest that I return in 25 years (though I’m happy to do so), when I have been managing my land in the ways I described already for 18 years. Are you expecting that I will fail? My soils are improving at a very pleasing rate, ther flora on my land is nutritious and healthy – were you expecting something else?
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Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
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Beasts very much desire not to end up as dinner at any point. They, like you and I, struggle, with every bone (or cartilage) in their bodies, to avoid becoming dinner. Do you have information that suggests otherwise, Blue?
Veganism seems to me to rely on a desire to eat plants.
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They never see the stun coming.
One day they are munching grass, thinking nothing of the future, the next day they are a juicy steak, still thinking nothing of the future.
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I cant believe your arguing that animals die peacefully for food. You are obviously broadcasting from a place of sheer naievety. It was having the balls to witness this for myself that turned me vegan, so walk the talk, Blue Peter, you are coming from a place of no sound evidence whatsoever.
To previous posts:
Without getting into biological and chemical detail, yes poo is good, but if you take substance, put it through a pig, the pig absorbs much nutrient itself, thus composting the raw plant matter originally would surely yield a better soil. (I feel not the need to prove it because A: its logic and B: what the thinker thinks, the prover proves) If you’ve tried this you’d see that its an amazing rich soil, and if you need poo factor, leave it to the worms, who will also micro manage distribution of nutrient, and soil aeration. Its not rocket science, this is straightforward stuff. You dont want to be growing your spuds in pig shit.
or rather my spuds.
Theres human poo to consider and compost if you were really going to do this right. Perheps have a look at other cultures and not assume this British Colonialist approach is the be all and end all?
Yes the pig method will work if want to brutalise your land, but my point it we are already brutalising our lands. We need to nurture that fine topsoil ecology to truly protect our topsoils, so it can take in water, “less” synthetic nitrogen is a pathetic argument trying to justify our ongoing animal exploitation and braindead farming practices.
Knock it off. We really can do much better. The greens should be carrying this message, and with it advocacy toward plant based diets. Theres enough marketing rammed down our throat to eat obesity causing, heart disease causing, cancer causing meat and dairy, wheres our flagship campaign to get people off meat and dairy? for health ethical and environmental reasons.
Wheres the vision? The rolemodelling? It is much needed.
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I’m not talking about survival instinct, no matter how much you want to twist it that way.
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I’ve been in a freezing works, if that’s what you mean.
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Right I see and therefore if you are unable to see what others see then your arrogant pro cruelty, pro slavery , pro land destruction attitude should be adopted by the rest of us?
Have you ever for a moment put yourself in the victims position?
What if you’re just plain wrong?
We need vision and compassion, not ignorance and cruelty. People who make money pedaling flesh and blood are very bad people with a severe lack of moral ethic. Those advcating free range are just a bit smarter, thats all.
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You are working against the nature of the beast then. Trying to make light of that by saying that ‘they wouldn’t care either way’ was wrong.
Did you find the freezing works an enjoyable place to be?
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I certainly don’t advocate cruelty to animals. For example, if an animal is in untreatable pain, I have no problem putting it out of it’s misery quickly. I just hope someone would do the same for me in the same situation.
You say victim. I say Medaillon de boeuf au poivre vert.
I buy free range. So long as the animal is treated well during its life, and killed quickly and painlessly (I realise this is not always the case, but it should be), then I have no problem, whatsoever, eating meat.
I’m an omnivore.
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You don’t eat fish, Greenfly? No animals at all? No dairy?
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Its interesting this was a discussion about farming practices when now its about dietary preference. I welcome that because veganism solves all of these problems. Fast forward to the endgame and you will be discussing veganism. Forward thinking is always a bit freaky at first BluePeter, and others, but if you want to cut the crap and do whats right? It starts and mostly ends with conscious consumerism. Anything less is dilly-dallying and an expensive waste of time and resources that the world doesn’t really have anymore.
Vision. Ethics. True sustainability. Thats why I used to vote Green but if we are endorsing dairy, I’m out.
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Aaron,
“this peasant farmer mentality, where we serve other developed nations”
Exporting doesn’t necessarily equate to being a peasant. Do you agree that we need to export (preferably high value) stuff so we can import some stuff? I’m not sure that selling intelligence will be enough.
“we will have to compete with the big 2″
YES. We do need to compete with the labnats for votes. Being above 5% is one thing. Having eough seats to move toward the”end-game” is another. And it is a game. Look at how Hide was ‘glad’ to entrench the Maori seats so that he could better acheive his goals (taking GF to Paris or whever)
“Welfarism implies you can enslave exploit and kill fellow mammals and they will gleefully oblige. If this were the case we would still have slaves, and they would experience impeccable welfare, and we would all accept it as a satifactory utopia, would we not?”
If we liken the pet dog and farm animals to slaves, then I suggest we STILL do have slaves. And their welfare is relatively good. $12.50/hr is not quite what the Greens are campaigning for but it puts you near the top of some global income charts. As much a slave as the average beef cow on a hilltop in the Coromandel.
“We dont need millions of animals living miserable lives, so lets lead a way out of this ethical mess.” Yes. I agree. But without appealling to the mainstream, we’re just not in a position to lead.
“At a core practical level we in New Zealand agriculture need to preserve our topsoils”
YES yes yes. So soil carbon needs to be in the ETS. I believe it is possible for a (dairy) farm to maintain and even increase the humus of the soil. I also agree that most dairy farms are stripping the humus and washing away what’s left.
“a land that evolved without ever being trampled by such giant mammals. Our land is not designed for it, and once its gone its gone.”
I agree entirely… you’re talking about the two legged kind eh?
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I agree entirely… you’re talking about the two legged kind eh?
unquote
Lets keep it real, shall we?
If you get onto the topic of global hunger, you’ll soon see that the solution is cropping. not cows and dairy. a single cow will still ultimately do more harn to a soil topology than a family of humans.
How to you propose compacting soil and not compacting it at the same time?
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I do, Blue – why do you ask?
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Would the cows be here if the 2-legged ones weren’t?
“How to you propose compacting soil and not compacting it at the same time?”
As Greenfly said, there are plants that can push roots into the soil. I have heard that zero tilling is very good at preserving organic content, thus pastoral based systems may be sustainable.
I have already agreed that you can feed more people with cropping than farming meat (though there’s much land not easily cropped.. perhaps should be in trees?) but there’s still a limit to how many people can be fed, so it isn’t a solution.
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As Greenfly said, there are plants that can push roots into the soil.
Unquote
So your saying plants are physically strong enough to withstand the weight od a herd of cows? Thats stretching it a bit.
I have heard that zero tilling is very good at preserving organic content, thus pastoral based systems may be sustainable.
Not if the water cannot get in due to compaction. Best you buddy up with monsanto for some synthetic nitrogen if thats the route your thinking.
(Which is already a failed science)
I have already agreed that you can feed more people with cropping than farming meat (though there’s much land not easily cropped.. perhaps should be in trees?) but there’s still a limit to how many people can be fed, so it isn’t a solution.
Trees aid in terraneous water storage, and can lift the water table, which hydrates cropping land, so yes, trees are important and they also convert atmospheric carbon. You’re on the right track but you’ll never get there if you insist on bringing the cows with you.
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fin – much land not easily cropped? Have you seen the terraced gardens of Asia, on slopes that would challenge the most nimble tree planter? Not easily cropped, perhaps, but croppable none-the-less. I don’t mean to discount the value of tree cropping of course, as that’s the second string to the sustainable agriculturalists bow.
The deep-rooted perennial ploughs, won’t solve the issue of compaction from too many ungulates on too small an area. I’m not opposed to large animals in the mix, just large numbers of them, as we have now.
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Aaron – in your crusade to rid the land of cows
have you taken the ideas of the Biodynamic community into account?
Steiner would have things to say to you about jettisoning the cornerstone of the movement’s systems.
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You’ll just have to accept that some us have thought about it, and reached different conclusions.
I’m guessing you are young, huh.
Define “resource”. For example, has oil always been a resource? Once, not so long ago, it was nuisance.
You forgot pragmatism.
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Greenfly, I too don’t like overstocked farms we have today. But I’m not sure how to go about changing things for the good of the cows who are suffering. Unfortunately I believe the only way to change the world is through appealing to our greed $$. Thankfully the recievership of Crafarms shows that his way of farming is likely not the most profitable.
If the Greens can show how fewer cows can produce more valuable product, whilst protecting topsoil and improving animal welfare, things will change.
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fin – yes to your final sentence and like you, I’m not sure how that could be achieved. There are of course, many excellent models that show how it could be done, but they all threaten other parts of the farming infrastructure – the fertilizer industies, the ‘cide suppliers, farm consultant businesses, supply companies and those guys will fight back vigorously.
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fin – yes to your final sentence and like you, I’m not sure how that could be achieved. There are of course, many excellent models that show how it could be done, but they all threaten other parts of the farming infrastructure – the fertilizer industies, the ‘cide suppliers, farm consultant businesses, supply companies and those guys will fight back vigorously.
Unquote
Yup, half-assed goals will yield half-assed solutions.
@BluePeter I am 35, though Im not sure the relevance of your query. Your “different” Conclusion is one that endorses cruelty, exploitation, pollution and land misuse, does it not? Therefore I challenge its worth, and your methodology. Defining resource does not bear any consequence in this discussion.
Pragmatism? If we had all the time and hindsight in the world perhaps. These issues will not solve themselves. They require action.
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Say NO to dairy. Dairy means forced pregnancy, GE, and young animals ripped from their mothers time and time again, for profit and cheese.
Fast forward to the end game. We are not mainstream, we are pathfinders.
“Wolly headed muppet” and I am being kind
Fast Foward to the endgame?? A starving world is what you will get
“forced pregnancy, GE, and young animals ripped from their mothers time and time again”
Get a life and Grow UP
Where is the GE in NZDairy? Forced preg, by that I guess you mean AI
Ripped from their Mothers ,Well we do have to Harvest their milk !!!!
Nothing we do will ever be good enough so how about we dont even try !!!
Poeple like you Make me Sick
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A starving world Panda? If you can see anything past your own bowels you’ll see there are already problems in this area. Globally it takes more sense to not give the land to cows for food but to use thar land for US for food. We are too used to having daily banquets, while others starve.
Your intelligence is overwhelming.
Get a life and grow up? What a helpful contribution to the conversation. Im searching trademe for a life right now.
We dont have to harvest the milk of cows at all Panda, that is a concious choice. The time has come for change my friend.
I’ve just been writing my submissions to ERMA today to kneecap AgResearch once again in their decrapit journey into GE research.
I make you sick? All flesh makes you sick eventually. What makes me sick is animal cruelty and people who are too selfish to do anything about it.
Greets
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Oh right I forgot
we all torture our Animals!!!!!!
ask Janette if she witnessed any any animal torture on the farms she visited you infantile child
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Well name-calling aside…
Torture, like murder, is a word reserved for reference to humans unless I am mistaken.
And with respect, its Jeanette, not Janette…
Animals feel pain and build families as we do. Its only the ignorant who do not acknowledge this. As omnivores we have choices, as The Greens we should be advocating the ethical best.
Try saying “I care” before “I want” sometime.
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oh I am Sorry Mr Perfect !!!! “Jeanette”
you know I thank God for people like you
without your extremist nonsense the Greens might some day make it into cabinet (God Forbid)
Cows Build Families?
OMG you are really at the loony end!!!!
If your poisoned thinking didn’t infect the young and stupid I would not give you the time of day but as I know they happen to read this blog I Feel it is my duty to present the real view
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going vegan would be a good/essential start..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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BTW AaronC
Cows 380
land 338 ha
native bush 80 ha
pine plantations 5000 trees
gold screens 1
All cows wintered on
Meal feed
doesn’t seem over stocked to me
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phil – if we were all vegan we would be condeming millions of cows to never have a life in the first place.
If we were all vegan, there wouldn’t be cows, or sheep, in the first place.
Think of all those millions of animals that get to have a life, that otherwise wouldn’t have come into being at all. They have plenty to eat, no worries about predators, get helped when they are sick, extra feed in winter, salt licks, water to drink year round, help when they are cast, get help with their daggs, get dewormed, the best grass science can provide – hell – sheep even get a haircut in the summer.
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Yes Phil,
my excuse at the moment, for not going vegan, is that it won’t make any (or FA) difference to suffering cows. Also I get a good feeling when I buy ‘free range’ eggs. Usually I get the eggs from source where I have to make sure I don’t drive over the chooks/slaves on the way out. Truely I can’t see their suffering.
Lame cows however, they are suffering, and they are pushing me very close to the long black.
But that won’t stop lame cows, or more importantly, untreated lame cows.
One thing I’m pretty sure of is that if more Greens were in the beehive, less sows would be suffering, and the plight of animals in NZ would be improved.
Panda, I hope that meal isn’t a PK blend
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Are you serious Photonz? NZs largest dairy farmer is in the guns for starving their animals- there’s 3 MAF officers for the entire country monitoring Animal Welfare.
Killing something prematurely and unneccesarily is not justified by the fact you brought it into the world in the first place.
Animals can exist for more reasons than food you know. Its redundant logic to think that ending farming of an inappropriate nature equates with nuking all biodiversity accross the world. Only idiots think like that.
Is it ok to abuse your children because you gave them life?
The best grass science can provide?? YUK. I would prefer something a little more natural and a little less monsanto thanks.
And sheep get their wool taken in the WINTER, mate, when they need it most.
Be honest, a person with you mentality thinks of a farm animal as an object, a commodity, not a life, right?
Panda 330 cows? you really are a parasite aren’t you? And yet you claim to not understand the complex relationships that form between mother and young-you instead rip away the young and they get slaughtered as veal, right? So you can line your pockets by pedaling their flesh and blood. You low life. You’re EXACTLY the reason why farmers need shut down, because you have no respect for life, the environment, or morality. You will claim to but ultimately you care not beyond your own financial gains.
That it takes you that much land to make a living is nothing short of an embarrassment mate.
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As to the issue of best farm practice – sustainable environment and part of our global warming effort, farmers tend to highlight the cost of the investment to change their farming.
Perhaps the government should lend them the money – with the interest on this debt adding to this (no need to pay annual interest on the debt, but this would be a voluntary option) until they sell the farm and then part of the money from the farm sale is used to repay this debt to government. A variation on student loans.
Thus there is no financial barrier to fast change.
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Are you serious Photonz? NZs largest dairy farmer is in the guns for starving their animals- there’s 3 MAF officers for the entire country monitoring Animal Welfare.
Killing something prematurely and unneccesarily is not justified by the fact you brought it into the world in the first place.
Animals can exist for more reasons than food you know. Its redundant logic to think that ending farming of an inappropriate nature equates with nuking all biodiversity accross the world. Only idiots think like that.
Is it ok to abuse your children because you gave them life?
The best grass science can provide?? YUK. I would prefer something a little more natural and a little less monsanto thanks.
And sheep get their wool taken in the WINTER, mate, when they need it most.
Be honest, a person with you mentality thinks of a farm animal as an object, a commodity, not a life, right?
Panda 330 cows? you really are a parasite aren’t you? And yet you claim to not understand the complex relationships that form between mother and young-you instead rip away the young and they get slaughtered as veal, right? So you can line your pockets by pedaling their flesh and blood. You low life. You’re EXACTLY the reason why farmers need shut down, because you have no respect for life, the environment, or morality. You will claim to but ultimately you care not beyond your own financial gains.
That it takes you that much land to make a living is nothing short of an embarrassment mate.
So what happens to male chicks in the free-range egg industry?
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So fin, What happens to male chicks in the free range egg industry?
Again, more murky seriously ethical grey area. Half-assed values brings about half-assed morality.
Just convince yourself its ethical and you feel good about it right? until that fragile bubble is again burst.
-just sayin’
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you really are a parasite aren’t you?
well I guess I am and so is the rest of the NZ economy that survives on the $$ we bring is also
What do u propose ?
we all go back the stone age ?
whoops no vegans there
What is wrong with killing animals for meat humans have done that for 1000s of years
your pointless extremism is dangerous and born out of a wealthy existence I provide for you so don’t lecture me you sniveling drop kick
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Watch the petty insults guys or your posts will be deleted.
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Sorry frog
his attitude just makes my blood boil!!!!
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What do I propose? Evolution. Just like we turned our backs on other things like human slavery, women being second class citizens and burning witches at the stake. We are capable of better. You’ve got the land, DO BETTER.
And it was actually recently that we began eating meat, in evolutionary terms, around the same time we harnessed fire. Some of us are not still stuck there. Do you eat it raw like every other carnivore/omnivore does?
My “pointless extremism” as you put it is actually a vision for a safe sustainable future where less harm is committed to all, except the bad people currently profitting from this needless killing, bloodshed, sufferring, pollution, land misuse etc.
Thats why the Greens should be showing the way. Thats why YOU vote Labour/National. I dont expect you to know how to find your way out of a cardboard box, but The Greens SHOULD have the noodles and the integrity to do whats right. Without principals we are no better than any of the other parties. I think thats why you’re upset, because you know that what I am saying is fundamentally right, and it threatens your immoral lifestyle.
Whats wrong with killing animals? If you’re asking that question you’ve got a very long way to go, I’m afraid.
Do better.
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Thanks for that Aaron… I guess.
I’m still going to squash any mossies I see inside though
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Yes sorry if I was a little snappy there fin, my tounge speaks what my heart feels, and sometimes I feel like I’m about to speak for those who cannot, may their suffering one day end.
lol the thing with mossies is that they are attacking you to begin with, so that’s kinda different.
“Self defense”?
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where less harm is committed to all, except the bad people currently profitting from this needless killing,
So you are advocating that as I am a farmer I should be killed ??
wow I didn’t see that coming
I guess I have more to be worried about then I thought
you are advocating eco terrorism in the name I saving animals ?
how dose that compute ?
A human life is worth less that that of an animal ?
oh and I am glad you are so highly evolved and you can lead us all into a Utopian light
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No sorry you read or I wrote that wrong, either way, I meant such people would make less money.
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It could be argued that killing animals for food is human nature and that the survival of the species probably depended on this.
That’s the morality of nature.
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Quote”
It could be argued that killing animals for food is human nature and that the survival of the species probably depended on this.
That’s the morality of nature. ”
unquote.
Like rape?
An intellectual would argue that with compassion care and empathy for others you could do better I would wager.
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Eh Rape
WTF
where did that come from
I know I haven’t spent umpteen dozen years getting a philosophy masters degree but I am sorry you have lost me there !!!!
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That arguement is also flawed because it is not my nature, at all. I like animals, and for nutrition, I eat plants. I do challenge you that my choices are more ethical though, because your choices create suffering, and reward those who induce that suffering. That’s the reason people may become vegan and challenge others. Because it is appropriate to do so. The victims have no voice here, lest you consider them.
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You could argue that neither the survival of the species or the individual is now dependent on eating meat, whereas it was in the past. You could even argue that the balance is changing and not eating meat is beneficial for humanity in ensuring that there is sufficient food for all.
At no stage was humanity dependent on rape for the survival of the species. Resorting to such debating devices is not that moral.
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Panda my point is (and I may start charging you by the hour I might add
)
is that SPC says we hunt to eat for satisfaction and survival, it is an instinct. Sex is also an instinct for satisfaction and survival, yet we’ve got our act together in that department, mostly. We dont just selfishly take with respect to sex anymore, but we do with respect to our food.
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I am not so concerned with the past as relevant to our current actions and beliefs, SPC, but our future, and the people we choose as (Political) role models. using tradition as an argument justifies things like animal sacrifice, bullfighting and public stonings of gay people. We know better now, lets start doing better.
I would expect the Greens Leadership to have higher moral sense than my own, and that is the problem here. The Greens are currently supporting the corpsemunching, animal abusing, misuse of land that is inherent to our history.
We can do better.
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SPC – in the modern world, where we can have technology and produce lots of carbon, we can probably live without meat.
But in places like Africa that are not reliant on producing tonnes of carbon, eating meat is essential for survival.
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you couldnt pay me enough to listen to you unless it was black comedy,
which I suspect it just may be
I find your attitude enlightening in a warped way
I would love to sit in on one your little vegan gatherings and listen to your utterings
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I agree photonz1
Green dogma is the luxury of the wealthy West
you can decry capitalism all you like but with out you are shuffling around in the 3rd world worried about where your kids next meal is coming from not making high and mighty statements about not killing animals
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Right Night all
enough from me
Cows to milk (torture)
PKe to feed
Diesel to burn
Gold to extract
Kids to educate
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Ha!
beyond my anger hurt and frustration Panda, I am actually a decent bloke
I think I am just too conscious of how destructive and cruel we all are, often without realising.
Whenever a vegan expresses themselves, we ALWAYS get called extremist nutjobs or whatever you like, no matter how much you sugar-coat the message. People hate being told they are wrong. I hated being told I was wrong, then I watched a full grown cow swinging back and forth from its hind leg in a NZ slaughterhouse, semi-conscious and terrified and I said “no, THATS wrong”.
At the end of the day I have nothing to gain personally even if all my hopes and dreams are realised. These are wishes I have for other beings with whom I share the earth, not me. I have nothing to gain, but the message is important I believe.
quote:” You’ll never find inner peace when your body is a graveyard for animals”
thanks for the convo’s guys, I work online for Americans (I’m an exporter too ) and I need to do some work
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Aaron – it animals shouldn’t be killed to eat, do you think we should be teaching -
- lions to eat grass
- birds to stop eating bugs
- fish to stop eating other fish
- crocodiles to stop eating other animals (inluding people)
- insects to stop eating other insects (and drinking my blood and killing me with malaria)
- snakes and poisonus spiders to stop killing things just for fun
- cats to stop eating mice
- rats to stop eating eggs
- baboons to stop eating any animal they can kill
- not to mention jackals, cheetahs, tigers, komodo dragons, cougars, jaguars, panthers, leopards, hippos, hyenas, wild dogs, civets etc etc etc.
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If population growth continues there is the issue of whether there will be enough food for all, unless crops fed to animals or land currently used for pastoral farming is brought into the equation.
Africans don’t subsist on meat, about 10,000 years ago crop farming changed the human diet including for Africans – this ended the migration for food (from wild food sources and hunting to planned crop farming and pastoral farming).
Older grain varities have more protein than the ones commonplace today and reduced the need for meat protein.
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photonz1, that would be a stupid argument to make no matter what side of the argument you fall on.
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SPC – I lived in Africa for several years and crop failure is a regular occurance, when animals are the only means of surviaval to the next seasons harvest.
Similarly with limited nutriction, (often just a single crop) meat is often the only source of many necessary essential elements.
So yes, Africans may survive on plants alone – at least some. But a lot die without a more balanced diet.
Valis – which of my stupid arguements are you talking about?
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Food fight!
Missed it!
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11:43pm
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I thought the 11:43 was a brilliant argument – animals eat meat, humans should also.
Mind you, many carnivores kill and eat their own young… perhaps we shouldn’t stop doing that until we’ve taught them not to do that!
Go Photonz1!
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“I thought the 11:43 was a brilliant argument – animals eat meat, humans should also.”
And eat it raw, of course. No other animal cooks its food, so cooking food is clearly unnatural, and we shouldn’t do it either
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Photonz1 wrote: “SPC – I lived in Africa for several years and crop failure is a regular occurance, when animals are the only means of surviaval to the next seasons harvest.”
so you’re saying that eating meat in New Zealand as a matter of course is justified by the fact that it is sometimes necessary in Africa?
Cannibalism is sometimes necessary for survival too. But do we say that we should practice cannibalism all the time because it is sometimes necessary?
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The point was that if people are truely concerned about the killing of animals for food, why are they not trying to stop other animals killing?
The African plains are a killing field.
Have any vegans ever bought cats or dogs that require other anuimals to die so they can eat (I suppose they may have vegan cats and dogs).
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photonz1 – still a daft argument.
I’m willing to bet though, that if Aaron has a cat, it’ll be belled.
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greenfly – having a cat with a ball is well and good, but has he thought about those poor mice who are deaf
Like many animals, humans have survived a long time by eating food including meat. It’s not unnatural.
And there are a lot of animals who get to have a life because of this. And on good farms, they have a life that would be better than a life in the wild.
Perhaps we should focus more on making sure bad farms are weeded out.
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Not ‘weeded out’, photonz1, culled!
(you are revealing your anti-plant tendencies).
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i have three vegan dogs..
a mother..11yrs old..her daughter..seven years old..and an add-on..2 yrs old..
and i know quite a few other vegan dogs..
and tho’ cats can be vegan..
(with more difficulty than dogs..but it can be done..safe sell a vegan cat cat-food..that has everything in it..)
my problem with cats is that they are killers..
and unless kept indoors all the time..
most of them go in search of things to kill..
anyway..vegan dogs..?
http://whoar.co.nz/?s=vegan+dogs
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Hey AaronC I don’t disagree with your posts………but I don’t think that “fast-forwarding to the end game” is a practical solution to the problems that you see.
As you have pointed out, it took a cow swinging on a hook for you to decide that you were not happy with the way in which animals are treated. That is a particularly graphic image but is one that the majority of people never see. Perhaps you could help facilitate the information/education gathering (as you are doing here) and maybe get this out into public domain.
I do believe that the way in which animals are treated is something that we need to think about but change requires a philosophical shift and you can’t fast forward that in people.
Three families get together at the beach for the weekend. They go fishing, beach walking, swimming etc and just have a great time. It can be hard to make them see, during the evening barbeque, that the world has a problem with animal welfare and the degredation of the planet.
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Hey Jimmy.
Its very difficult, if not impossible, to reach people without pissing them off. They dont want to know. If stopping animal cruelty means people have to stop eating them then I am regarded as a nut job. People would rather try to pigeon-hole me rather than objectively evaluate their own actions. It stems from laziness and arrogance- people dont want to be told they are wrong. People know how pigs and battery chickens are farmed. They still buy factory farmed.
Theres not much point sharing graphic images if theres no political party thats willing to stop it happening.
Maybe we need a hardline animal rights party instead, to cushion society’s guilt and satisfy peoples anger when animal abusers walk out of courtrooms largely unpunished. If the Greens are the new Labour, theres room for another fringe party.
A few individuals are different, a few are willing to say “I care” before “I want”. We will always be a vast minority- its some kind of genetic rarity I believe. But the upside to it is that in first person I can have an incredible exchange with animals. I like the giant rat in my compost, I value the common spider. I can see the softness of cows.
And I can see the brutality of humans, and the evil of those who exploit animals and humans, and ruin our land. I have no solution though, my only tools are the medication of writing my thoughts on a largely pointless blog
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Aaron – medicating yourself as a way to reduce the suffering of animals?
That’s a bit feeble, isn’t it?
If you even saved one creature from a cruel life, you’d have done better than that!
Get busy man!
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lol I await your implicit (legal) instructions
Being vegan means you’re part of the solution. “Get Busy?”
My version of get busy is work then financially support rescue organisations.
What can you really, effectively do? We are a nation of parasites, exploiting my friend the cow. People like to sit back and watch TV, even if its at the expense of our standards of decency.
I await your campaign strategy.
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1. Build a team – advertise yourself and your cause in a way that attracts supporters and at the same time has integrity – tell the truth in a manner that attracts, rather than repels. (Seems you have the cows on your side already, so you’re off to a very good start).
2. I’ll await your reaction to #1 before mooving on.
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(footnote to Aaron – pushing the cruelty issue is not an effective way to rid the land of stock farming,if that’s your aim, imo. You’ll change some minds, but not enough, as I believe you have already discovered).
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I have a cat whose job is to kill mice. She is starting to get old, and the mice are starting to be a problem.
I feel no shame about killing mice, would do it myself if I had the patience and free time of a cat.
I feel no shame about eating meat. Why should I? Why argue with 1,000,000 years of evolution? I choose not to eat factory farmed animals but that is an affectation.
peace
W
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quote
advertise yourself and your cause in a way that attracts supporters and at the same time has integrity – tell the truth in a manner that attracts, rather than repels.
unquote
lol thats impossible. No-one wants to be attracted to issues, everyones too busy, and theres too much on telly. Seriously give it a go sometime-as nice your idea is its naive Im really, really, truly sorry to say. Not even the greens are interested. All bar one of our MP’s pay people to kill innocent animals. We are corrupted at our political best.
The people who are really trying to milk humanity of its wealth love it that people are focused on animal welfare and rights issues, because then we are distracted from larger issues like political corruption and globalisation. I sometimes wonder if these cruel existences are nurtured to keep the heat off the people at the top harvesting the planets wealth.
People dont care. We are selfish, its that simple.
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Bliss – I guess you don’t eat mice, nor will you eat your old cat when it expires. Affectation, yes, but it’s where that line is drawn that is the more interesting debate.
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Aha, Aaron, how wrong you are! Try it sometime, you say, but I have already and to great success. I’m offering you the Secret to my Success but you seem to want to regress back to your chosen state of inertia.
Step 2. Find a way to present your issue in a romantic way.
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greenfly whats this campaign you won?
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That is a bit ignorant of farming. The Greens develop sensible policy based on reasoned debate. For that purpose we listen to people, like Jeanette, who know what they are talking about!
Sorry ArronC. But yours is a faith based subjective position. There is no logical reason why anybody should share it. Your arguments are anthropomorphic and overly dramatic.
Whilst others may share your point of view, I do not, and there are many like me. We do not buy your animal welfare arguments, they do not hold water. (Sheep and cattle would be extinct, if not farmed, for one thing).
Statements like the one of yours I quoted above damage credibility. Sensible stocking and good management of dairy farms does *not* destroy the soil. Did you read Jeanette’s piece? Try this.
Passionate belief does not imply truth.
peace
W
peace
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Actually bliss you summarise the mentality that is indeed the major problem here. You claim to have everything sorted out, yet fail to see why killing is wrong, even claim we have done it for a million years… (rolls eyes)
are dogs extinct in NZ because we dont eat them? Are tuatara? Are pet turtles? Your arguments are fundmentally flawed I’m afraid.
To wish for hearts to stop beating when they need not, is lame, at the very least. You say “I want” before “I care”. If you think my words are dramatic, imagine the journey of a farm animal, including the truck that carries it to its death. Unnecessarily.
In fact, my views are simply ahead of our time, which is how the greens used to think.
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So Pet dogs are ok for vegans. How many dogs are put to sleep at spca every day?
But of course you treat your pet dog well, some might say you are one of the good slave owners.
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I have a dog. Believe it or not I’m the not the first vegan to save an animal. Thats actually the point.
Yes herbivores die to feed carnivores. But if I killed him myself, that would directly go against the vegan principal. He exists for his own reasons, and in fact they outline other issues.
We need licenced only breeding for dogs. Punish these profiteering breeders and idiots who dont neuter their dogs. The only way? A license to breed or a big fat fine (to go to the SPCA along with their animals). Yes Fin many dogs die at the SPCA every week. It sucks.
The Greens dont have a policy to sort it out. *Ahem “Licensed Breeding Only, folks…”. Regulate so an animal has value once more. Its not the dogs fault.
The other issue with my dog is that he is a greyhound that doesn’t make money on the track. Thus he is trash, garbage to the Kiwi gambling machine. Discarded because he fails to entertain. Despite the fact that dogs suffer injury on the track for human entertainment too. Greyhound racing has got to go.
Wheres the morality in killing thousands of beautiful animals each year because they dont line the pockets of greedy greyhound breeders? Gambling is bad enough as it is.
And yes a greyhound is a seriously beautiful animal.
No Greens policy in this department.
And you wonder why I get annoyed.
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“..I do not, and there are many like me. We do not buy your animal welfare arguments, they do not hold water. (Sheep and cattle would be extinct, if not farmed, for one thing)…”
sorta both funny..(for the extinction-logic)..
and sad..
that the horrible/unimaginable sufferings of intelligent/sentient beings..
do not..with you..’hold water’..
(esp. coming from a ‘green’..(!)..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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“..The Greens develop sensible policy based on reasoned debate. For that purpose we listen to people, like Jeanette, who know what they are talking about!..”
come off it..!
jeanette hand-rears..then kills/eats..animals..
on her ‘green-farm’..
(her ‘favourite meal’..?..
home-reared/killed veal..)
that’s ‘green’..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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“..But of course you treat your pet dog well, some might say you are one of the good slave owners…”
fin..i am the ’slave’ of three vegan dogs..
at least three park visits/walks a day..
the constant preperation of food..
(you have to do it every day..!..)
and if i don’t keep to the routine..?
they surround me/stare at me/bully me..
just who is ‘owned’ here..?
they do ‘guard’ me/us..
but it is a pretty good deal for them..
(‘hey..!..yeah..!..we’ll keep an eye on things..!..you do everything else..!
i’ll just be snoozing over there..!’..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Jeanettes favorite meal is veal? How inherently ghastly.
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ArronC: Do you claim that humans have not evolved as omnivores?
PhilU: Your moral code, your subjective opinion, holds that “jeanette hand-rears..then kills/eats..animals..” is wrong. You are entitled to your opinion, but do not confuse it with fact.
GreenFly: I would eat mice, or my cat. A matter of choice, I have it and I choose to eat the tastier morsels available at the market. (Looking forward to experimenting with Hare, just become available at he local farmers market).
blissfully
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@bliss
as omnivores we have a choice. We are intelligent enough to know right from wrong, yet the meat eater in todays society dares not and commits animals to suffer needlessly, for the taste of its fats. You cannot justify that in an ethical sense, and doctors will justify your condition to you when you suffer health effects as you get older.
Look at your hand. Its claws are for cleaning your ears and nose. It is shaped to pick fruit. Man only ate meat when he harnessed fire, and mastered hunting. How do you thnk we coped before then? hundreds of thousands of years eating fruits nuts grasses and vegetables.
PhilU’s point of view might be wrong for the common peasant, but as the political party supposed to be making the right choices, our leaders should be leading by vegan example. Leave the animals alone.
bliss you say “I want” before “I care” because you are self-absorbed, you lack empathy and compassion, and your selfishness means you think you are the be-all-and-end-all in this world. The meat industry has brainwashed you, and your parents before you.
But thats ok, in fact its encouraged in our society, hell, even the greens encourage it. Profits to be made and all. (lets not count the environmental moral and health cost though)
If you used your own brain and put yourself through the journey of the farm animal , or the hare who is shot, your thoughts might change.
We can do better. The Greens should be people to aspire to, not corpse-munchers complacent and complicit to animal exploitation and cruelty.
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“..PhilU: Your moral code, your subjective opinion, holds that “jeanette hand-rears..then kills/eats..animals..” is wrong. You are entitled to your opinion, but do not confuse it with fact..”
sorry bliss..wrong..
ask her..!
(btw..i am quoting her from an interview she gave to a widely-read magazine..
coplete with pictures..
(not of the actual ‘killing’..i hasten to add..
that might have been ‘a bridge too far’/'embarassing’..eh..?..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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I do not believe you. What magazine? Give a link.
I do not believe that Jeanette has ever said that hand rearing animals and eating them is wrong.
blissful
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it was womans weekly/new idea..one of those..2005 election-time..
your jeanette-archivees will have it..
you work for them..
so..get it..
or ask her..?
eh..?
(i don’t make stuff up..eh..?..
i wouldn’t say that..
if it were not true..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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“..I do not believe that Jeanette has ever said that hand rearing animals and eating them is wrong..”
yes bliss..
your mistake is uncannily accurate..
‘cos no..she has never said that is ‘wrong’..
just the opposite..
she came out as a fan of the practice..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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gee..!..while trawling the whoar archives looking for that link for bliss..
i found this..
(posted on 27/8/08.)
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Aaron,
You are making the mistake of assuming either that morals are universal or somehow objective or that other people should follow your moral code simply because it is yours.
There are no universal moral principles, no objective principles. They are all nothing but arbitary concepts that we choose to define ourselves and justify our actions. The give our life meaning and guidance but they are, none the less, entirely arbitary. Being entirely arbitary, there is no reason that we need follow any particular code and no justification to make others conform to yours.
You may consider it wrong to kill animals or sentient beings, I need not. Heck, I don’t even consider it wrong to kill humans. If I was waiting for rescue with another human and my dog I would kill and eat the human first and, if still not rescued, the dog latter. I will do what is needed to achieve my goals; goals dictated by my own moral code. I may consider human survival of the utmost importance and thus it may be in my interest to make the world go vegan so that we may survive; the thing is that if we had a smaller population we could both survive and eat meat and since I have no problem with human death, or absence of birth, I will continue to eat meat. I don’t cook it, but I will eat it if its in front of me.
As to empathy and compassion, all that is achieved is pain. Empathy and compassion have no place amongst the ruling class, for the survival of society they must always consider the logic and what is best for society. They must not allow empathy and compassion to sway them or we get massive budget blow outs, massive market variation, and ultimately more pain and suffering than would have been experienced in the first place. By all means the ruling class should encourage empathy and compassion in the classes over which they rule but they must eliminate it within themselves.
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Aaron – at which point on the ‘living being’ scale do you draw the line? Do you squash bugs, for example? Would you kill and eat a amoeba? Algae?
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Do you think we would even be having this discussion if common decency was a trait we all had? You just have to read this thread to see impeccable selfishness.
If you think its fine to kill things then it is merely a measure of your character, your values, and your derelict ethics. The same standards should apply if I imprison and kill your mother- your daughter, YOU. You ok with that? There doesnt need to be a reason, theres 6 billion animals imprsioned on death row on this planet right now. Theres no justifiable reason.
Yes we have laws to ensure hipocrasy, and I am being hypothetical. But get real people. Animals have feelings, it is only sheer arrogance and greed to treat them as unfeeling inanimate objects.
think of others for once.
The best think for this country and the world is to match the advertising and marketing power of the animal exploitation industries with equal market power to reach and educate people on substitutes that are healthier and less cruel.
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First answer my question please greenfly-whats this campaign you won?
Secondly what has this got to do with flawed Green Party policy?
To answer your question, scientifically it is recognised that if it has a nervous system, it can feel pain. This includes shellfish. I’m not so in contact with ameobas. I certainly dont squash bugs unless they are attacking me. Why would you do that? They are having this miraculous experience called life. People that kill bugs and dont think about their actions probably never thought what it would be like to be the victim.
No one considers the victim.
Sometimes killing is neccesary, a bird dying from cat attack, a poisoned rat. To remedy that we should have cats neutered and poison off the shelves for more humane solutions.
Whats this campaign you won?
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Aaron,
And my point was that what you call common decency, and your judgement that it should be followed, is totally arbitary. There is no reason AT ALL that others should follow it.
I have no problem with you trying to imprison, and/or kill, my mother if you have no problem with my attempting to do the same to you and the state attempting to apprehend and imprison you. The difference is that our imprisoned animals can rarely fight back, and the state does not for them, and thus we can go about our actions with little fear of reprimand.
There is no justifiable reason to imprison and kill the animals but likewise there is no justifiable reason not to. You appear to not realise this.
Only 6 billion? I would have thought far more!
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Aaron – I hope you’ll allow me to be a bit vague over my ‘campaign’, as it’s on-going and not one that would benefit from being trumpeted as such. Nevertheless, I/we have taken a failing/dissapearing ’system’, reversed the trend, ignited peoples interest in something they had largely abandoned and fired up public support and involvement, all in the manner that I alluded to in my advice to you. Essentially, what I’m trying to say to you is that shaming/battering people into action is a poor approach to change while engaging and inspiring them is very effective. The ‘romantic’ approach, I have found to be most successful and by that I mean appealing to people’s love of, for example, nostalgia or history or patriotism or the landscape they and their parents have lived in, family-ties, etc.
I was appalled by a situation initially, wanted to berate people for what was happening, but found that I could win people over by the methods I described, obliquely, above. Hope that helps. If not, keep battering and see how you go.
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Not technically true. To feel pain it needs an incredibly complex nervous system as not only must it receive the sensation but it must interpret it as undesirable for it to classify as pain. Simple nervous systems will detect the sensation and act to move away from it automatically.
It is not unlike how if you hit the area under the knee a signal is sent up the sensory neuron to the spinal column and to the brain. This signal says ‘the leg has retracted’ and in the absence of inhibitary signals from the bran the spine sends a signal to a motor neuron to make the opposite muscle contract (thus the extension) to counteract the invoulentary retraction. It is no different. You cannot define this as pain as it does not involve the neural recognition of the stimulas as undesirable. Yes, shellfish are able to receive sensory information but they do not feel ‘pain’. Likewise, most, if not all, bacteria respond to stimuli through chemical signals sent from proteans embeded in the membrane (as do all of our cells), some are even able to react to light and move away through a similar process, and plants will react to touch and light and gravity, some will even show signs of stress and transmitter exhaustion.
If you eat plants you can by the same token justify eating shellfish. Likewise, if you refuse to eat shellfish because of ‘pain’ then the only thing you can really eat is rock. (be careful when you wash yourself, you may kill your own skin cells or even some friendly bacteria!)
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Aaron – why would you kill a bird that is dying from a cat attack?
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Sapient – that’s the kind of talk I like to hear. Lots of grey areas when it comes to deciding what to eat based on ethics. I’m always appalled when listening to vegans describe the cruelty of killing and eating animals, because they seem to have little care for the life-force of the plants they happily harvest, cook and consume. I’m not suggesting that plants shouldn’t be treated in this way, just that the issue is not cut and dried (like wheat).
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Sapient,
Your words are borderline hillarious if they were not so sinister and psychotic…
quote:
And my point was that what you call common decency, and your judgement that it should be followed, is totally arbitary. There is no reason AT ALL that others should follow it.
unquote.
So in your eyes it is ok to inflict uneccesary pain and sufferring upon others then? Please answer.
Quote:
I have no problem with you trying to imprison, and/or kill, my mother if you have no problem with my attempting to do the same to you and the state attempting to apprehend and imprison you. The difference is that our imprisoned animals can rarely fight back, and the state does not for them, and thus we can go about our actions with little fear of reprimand.
Unquote.
Why would your opinion have to be subject to my actions? Is this your shifting moral ethic that you are alluding to? Your abilty to change what is right and wrong to suit your mood?
Quote:
There is no justifiable reason to imprison and kill the animals but likewise there is no justifiable reason not to. You appear to not realise this.
Unquote
that is sheer insanity. This is an argument to keep human slaves, rape women, molest children. My point? Do unto others what you would have them do to you. And I’m not referring to a neo-fascist fundamentalist Christian version either. Im talking respect animals for the same reasons that we respect humans. Life exists for its own reasons, not because we made it in a laboratory.
We already have the animal welfare act, however hunting/pest control/research/vivisection/egg farms/chicken farms/pig farms/greyhound racing/dairy farming etc are not abiding to them.
I wont comment upon sheep farming horse racing etc until I have the evidence on my desk. Our Laws get broken, and nothing happens.
For you to advocate uneccesary killing and sufferring and rape upon the animal kingdom aludes you would have no problem with the same rules applied to humans. Thus your mindset is a danger to us all.
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(whistles nonchalantly and sidles out into the garden…)
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Greenfly,
I knew a psychology/neuro-science degree would come in useful at some stage
.
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All that study, Sapient, just so that you could infuriate vegans?
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Its also amazing that when an animal moves away from something attacking it you do not recognise that this is based on a version of feeling pain. You are over-intellectualising a situation that lends itself to logic. All that first hand experience as a shellfish must come in handy.
Greenfly I can assume then that in order to achieve your campaign goals, no-one actually has to change their actions, no-one stands to lose anything. In fact its happiness and celebration all the way. The difference between that and my message on behalf of non-human victims is quite stark:
1: Human offenders need to become aware that they are unknowingly the problem. Arrogance and ego prevents peopeladmitting they are wrong. This discussion is evidence of this.
2: Denying ones stomach of juicy fats that tase good (we are wired to sugars fats and salts) requires effort. Game over.
WHereas yours is more of a tangent- there are no losers- there is little at stake.
And I dont expect change, -I’ve already given more time here than I can afford, but people need to realise the sufferring that goes into our banquet everyday society. We have the power to give other beings respect, yet our guts is more important.
OH Great!
Just before we go Im so pleased someone stood up for plants!
I honor your concerns about plants in fact I share them. Plants too are complex lifeforms little understood. What do we know here?
1.Humans form complex relationships, feel pain, and the emotions of fear.
2.Humans form complex relationships, feel pain, and the emotions of fear.
3. Plants? We dont know
Therefore: Its a given that animals should be treated in a way so they are free of being subjected to cruelty, and suffering, like the human. Perhaps the plants should too?
In order to honor your concerns about plants though, I require to first acknowledge the plight of animals. shortly we will compare animals and plants but the more pressing immediate issue is to address the link between humans and animals, and the horrid exploitation of our animal friends.
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Greenfly,
Don’t worry, I have not had a good philosophical slaughtering for awhile now (it was so hard to hold back on the white ribbon thread
). If this goes on much longer I may get what ive been missing 
.
—————————-
Aaron,
It is most clean to use [blockquote] … [/blockquote] for quoting (replace [ and ] with angled brackets.
There is no reason not to inflict unneeded on others. Besides that, is said pain really unneeded. If I want a beef pattie I need to have a bovine die. If I want some psychotic pleasure from shooting animals I need to shoot the animal. Etc. Things are only ever needed for a purpose. Just because things are not needed for survival does not mean that they are entirely unneeded.
My actions would not be subject to your opinion (I gather that is waht you actually intended to say), I would do the same regardless. Though my opinion of you may differ based on your opinion as if your opinion is to do to others and then cry foul when another does to you then you are being hypocritical and I disrespect hypocrits. I kill animals, I wont hate an animal that kills me nor will I cry foul. It is the way of life. We all die, if we cannot prevent our deaths then it is our own failure, not one of another.
I find such action repulsive – under my own moral code – but it is none-the-less true that there is no objective justifiable reason not to do those actions. All justification morally is arbitary. These things are forbidden socially because they are the stuff that destroys social fabric, they are not, however, objectively wrong.
~
Rape? LOL.
I never encouraged beastiality. Though I don’t see it as inheriantly wrong. I think there would be all sort of nusences should it become legal (far more so with the male human to female or male animal side of things), but I would not oppose such were the legislation well made.
~
I would recommend using the preview function instead of double posting. Double posting, esspecially when you delete a large part of it, just looks lame.
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Sapient: Its also amazing that when an animal moves away from something attacking it you do not recognise that this is based on its version of feeling pain. You are over-intellectualising a situation that lends itself to logic. All that first hand experience as a shellfish must come in handy.
In science, and science babble, the thinker thinks what the prover proves. No room for logic in your debate.
Greenfly I can assume then that in order to achieve your campaign goals, no-one actually has to change their actions, no-one stands to lose anything. In fact its happiness and celebration all the way. The difference between that and my message on behalf of non-human victims is quite stark:
1: Human offenders need to become aware that they are unknowingly the problem. Arrogance and ego prevents people admitting they are wrong. This discussion here is evidence of this.
2: Denying ones stomach of juicy fats that taste good (we are wired to sugars fats and salts) requires effort. Game over. The animals lose.
Whereas yours is more of a tangent- there are no losers- there is little at stake.
And I don’t expect change, -I’ve already given more time here than I can afford, but people need to realise the suffering that goes into our “banquet everyday” society. We have the power to give other beings respect, yet our guts is more important. Just to poo it down the toilet tommorrow.
OH Great!
Just before I go Im so pleased someone stood up for plants! LMAO!
I honor your concerns about plants in fact I share them. Plants too are complex lifeforms little understood. What do we know here?
1.Humans form complex relationships, feel pain, and the emotions of fear.
2.Animals form complex relationships, feel pain, and the emotions of fear.
3. Plants? We dont know.
Therefore: Its a given that animals should be treated in a way so they are free of being subjected to cruelty, and suffering, like the human. Perhaps the plants should too?
In order to honor your concerns about plants though, I require to first acknowledge the plight of animals. shortly we will compare animals and plants but the more pressing immediate issue is to address the rift between humans and animals, and the horrid exploitation and suffering of our animal friends. Only when that is addressed can we stand up for the plants.
/LMAO
or another version? We harvest and kill plants infront of our children everyday, therefore its ok to kill animals in front of our children too.
When a natural carnivore sees something getting killed, its mouth waters. When we do, we turn away in disgust.
Logic prevails my friends. Farewell for now.
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Frog- please delete any of my doubleposts? The firefox interface does not seem to be letting me “request deletion” on double-posts. Gotta love dial-up
Cheers
[Frog: deleted two that looked like dups]
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Aaron,
I realise that you probally don’t know such, but logic is my domain; logic is what I am using to analyse your statements. Your logic is non-sequitar. I can even show such by an example to phototropism (among other tings). Phototropism allows plants (also fungi, animals, and many other eukaryotes) to move toward or away from light. The top of a plant will generally move toward the light; this is an example of reaction to an environmental stimulas. Would you classify it as likely to be painful for the plant to move toward the light? The roots of the plant will generally move away from light; this is an example of reaction to an environmental stimulas. Would you classify it as likely to be painful for the plant to move away from the light? Moving to or away from, it makes no difference with such simple sensory systems. Just because something moves away from something in its environment does not automatically mean it experiences it as unpleasurable; the plant roots move away from the sun to get closer to the nutrients and the other benefits found in soil.
Yes, animals feel pain. This is not because it is able to sense something from its environment and move away from it. This is because they have developed incredibly complex neural systems which interpret the stimulas as pain. Without those systems to interpret the stimulas as pain there can be no pain.
1.Humans form complex relationships, feel pain, and the emotions of fear.
2.Some animals form complex relationships, feel pain, and the emotions of fear.
3.Some animals feel pain, and the emotions of fear.
4.Some animals feel pain.
5.Some animals sense things in their environment but cannot interpret it as pain.
6.Most, if not all, plants sense things in their environment but cannot interpret the sensation as pain.
7.Most, if not all, non-animal eukaryotes sense things in their environment but cannot interpret the sensation as pain.
I don’t agree with your premise that we should not inflict pain, so animals and all else is game for me. For you most animals are not game but some should be. Though if you classify stimuli that are responded to by moving away from as pain as well as the normal definition of pain then you are left with very very little to eat.
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Aaron said:
Greenfly I can assume then that in order to achieve your campaign goals, no-one actually has to change their actions, no-one stands to lose anything. In fact its happiness and celebration all the way
Nope. Most people had to change and it involved land-use, one of the more challenging changes of all, and to add to that, dairy farmers had to refrain from their habit of converting every square metre into grass!
They stood to lose productive pasture, so there were difficulties. I’ve a Suggestion for your campaign – ‘target’ women – wives in particular, rather than blokes – we are notoriously difficult to change, but remember, romantic ideas win people over. My second suggestion is, don’t expect to change everyone – human’s are too variable for that – there will always be those who go the opposite way to you – look past them to the ones you can influence.
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Greenfly,
Phil 2.0. kind of reminds me of the statement:
The answer is of course “yes”.
LOL
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Sapient wrote
“I don’t agree with your premise that we should not inflict pain”
I rest my case.
I dont expect any of you animal abusers to change, just dont expect my vote anymore. Food makes the world go round. If you want to sort out the rest of the problems, get the food debate right.
Greenfly the problem is if you tell farmers that less land misuse is ok, your stuck when it comes to fixing the overall problem because they’ve already done what you said.
Ciao
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I try to understand these people, I really do. It is the only thing about which I can really say I have failed in my goal.
If Aaron was American it would explain a lot. From the same breed as those in the Palin vid.
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Aaron – my next suggestion to help you win your battle is:
First, win a little battle. Get some people agreeing to a minor point,
then move on to the next, slightly more challenging point, all the while keeping in mind your final goal. ALWAYS aim to win. Don’t engage unless you are going to be successful with the particular stage. Wins accumulate. People notice. Your power grows. Good luck Grasshopper!
ps – are you calling me an animal abuser? That is not a winning ploy.
pps – who are you going to vote for now?
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Greenfly wrote:
ps – are you calling me an animal abuser
If you finance the exploitation, slavery and killing of animals yes. Its obvious whom you’re rewarding for such deeds isnt it?
I dont have a battle here btw. People are greedy and selfish. Thats not going to change.
Who to vote for? I cant vote for a party I dont believe in. Lets see how the policies stack up on the day.
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Woo hoo! Ad hominem plus plus! Dihydrogen Oxide off a Anatidae back.
Then ArronC said, in reply (I think) to my plea not to screw with 1,000,000 years of evolution…
Ok! Do not screw with 1,420,000 years of evolution! From this…
Arron C and I are in agrement when he says I certainly dont squash bugs unless they are attacking me. me neither. Why would I?
Blissfully
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Green fight
Sorry I missed it
was off Raging to the mighty Peral Jam with my Kids
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Peral Jam? The wild version of Pearl Jam?
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Aaron
Preaching a moral position at someone whose line in debate is that governments/the ruling class should not have too much empathy and compassion for the people, as this just gets in the way of good government is unproductive (in winning small victories) – unless this is the debate you need to have (to win the big victory).
Think Spock, with all emotion suppressed in service to logic.
Personal moral choices (including advocacy of a moral position for humanity), when faced with a contrarian in service to only logic and personal self interest, remain just that.
Note however, that there is recognition that at some point meat eating could become a humanity survival issue and at that point he might support government/the ruling class ending meat eating, not out of empathy or compassion, but out of necessity (though of course that necessity would imply some need to preserve human life – which implies some government/ruling class need for empathy and compassion for other humans, there is still something human in our sapient).
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