by frog
In case you missed it, Sue Kedgley talks about sow crates and how people can help, here.
And have you heard of the Rubber Dodo Award from the US based Center for Biological Diversity?
Other stuff I’ve ran across on the interwebs:
Damning analysis of the latest NZIER report on NZ’s sustainability targets The Standard does the same.
Lift your game, Key – publicaddress.net
People losing faith in capitalism
Why adding more roads can increase congestion
CoLlapse doco coming soon – interview with Michael Ruppert
Polluter’s fear tactics on climate change revealed
The ugly face of the right wing – endorsing child labour
Nick Smith getting the smackdown at pundit.co.nz
Published in THE GAME by frog on Wed, November 11th, 2009
Tags: general debate
on the trolls and those who are unable to keep on topic
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They call it “climate change” because not every area will warm up. Some areas will experience higher winds, rainfall will change, etc.
Trevor.
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Haven’t smoked it for 25 years d4j.
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Cooking my porrige this morning was a gruelling job.
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“Climate change is bullshit hip science. ”
Hark! The oracle hath spoken. And very authoritative and credible is his pronouncement!
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“Unavailability of urban appropriate utility style bicycles in New Zealand
The mountain bikes and road racers , to which New Zealanders are almost exclusively limited, are neither designed nor appropriate for urban utility style cycling and are virtually useless for carrying stuff ( shopping etc) and in wet weather and are definitely not appropriate styles for a very large section of the potential cycling population.”
http://www.sustainability.govt.nz/forum/2009/unavailability-urban-appr opriate-utility-style-bicycles-new-zealand
http://slideshow-1.urbanbicycles.imageloop.com/en/index.htm
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d4j
You have the option of presenting some evidence of your assertion or being seen as having no argument, just opinion which proceeds from an orifice normally covered by trousers in polite society.
In other words, put up or shut up. I am quite indifferent to which you choose. I know the science fairly well – I am curious if you should know a new argument. Not that I expect you to, but I haven’t heard a new argument in many years.
Surprise me.
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The problems with the bicycles is where to safely ride the things and weather.
I wouldn’t trust a NZ driver further than I could throw his seeing-eye dog and there’s stuff-all separation of bicycle and automobile on most roads.
The fact that it blows a whole gale here half the time is the other nastiness. I don’t like wet and cold, and I am not too fond of riding into the wind. Bike paths, bike shelters, sheltered trails and for the hills, tow ropes (like on a ski trail)
We’ll get there eventually. Will I still be able to ride at that point? I don’t know.
BJ
BJ
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“..toad
Posted November 11, 2009 at 8:00 AM
Haven’t smoked it for 25 years d4j..”
so that’s yr problem..!
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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jeanette fitzsimons was just on national radio..
announcing the trial-separation/partial-divorce from national..
and she threatened/promised more vigorous antigovt agitation from the greens…
this is to be welcomed..
tho’she was asked a pertinent question..
as in..’why not have a full divorce..?’
she cited areas that are still ‘working’..
as the reasons not to..
namely..the house insulation program..
..and the cycleway..
now..correct me if i’m wrong..
but should the greens call in the lawyers..for the property division..
that national would not can the housing insulation program..
and that program will always be known as a fitzsimons/green party initiative..
full divorce..or not..
so..?
the other reason given..is the cycleway..
while yes..the greens will always support it/the concept..
but this cycleway is clearly a key/national initiative..
not a green party one..
so..once again..’so?’..
it seems to me..purely on a political science level..
that there is very little/s.f.a. reason for the greens not to go for that full divorce..
and to emerge as the loud/urgent/agitating opposition party..
..that they must become..
..surely..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Reasons for staying with the MoU aside, whether or not the Greens are loud/urgent/agitating enough has nothing to do with the MoU. They are simply not related in that way. The MoU is not inhibiting anything, so removing it would not suddenly allow something big and new to happen.
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Headline: Key oil figures were distorted by US pressure, says whistleblower.
I was listening to an LSE podcast the other day by Peter Head, who toured the world delivering the 2008 Brunel lecture. In the podcast he mentions that each lecture is tailored to the hosting country’s context, and specifically singles out NZ as one of the most difficult to comment on – not because, as many might believe, of our already high use of renewables, but rather because our economy is almost totally dependent on fossil fuels for transport and agriculture. (And we have a very low population density, making renewable implementation challenging).
One might think that this issue would be among the more important things that this government might keep itself busy with. No such luck. Then again, Labour didn’t do too much here either…
The podcast is well worth listening to: he has some sensible observations about public transport and eco-cities that the lunkheads in government would do well to think about, if they could extract their heads from their ideology.
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“.. Valis
Posted November 11, 2009 at 10:06 AM
Reasons for staying with the MoU aside, whether or not the Greens are loud/urgent/agitating enough has nothing to do with the MoU. They are simply not related in that way. The MoU is not inhibiting anything, so removing it would not suddenly allow something big and new to happen..”
can i suggest you go and listen to the interview jeanette did..?
she conceded the ‘muzzling’ (her word) effect of such agreements..
and that a consequence of this breakdown..
will be the greens attacking the government more..on all fronts..
her words totally contradict your assertion..
i suggest you go listen to it..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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I’m pretty sure the US won’t cover it well either.
CNN has the IEA reps denial covered though…
http://www.cnn.com/2009/BUSINESS/11/10/france.iea.oil.supplies/index.h tml
Nice to see that efficiency has not been lost completely.
BJ
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Pull th’pin!
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“Pull th’pin! ”
That is not logical greenfly, don’t you want to annoy the big J?
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Not ‘annoy’, Shunda, expose – I think it would be edifying for the public to hear how dismissive and arrogant National has been in its relationship with the Greens, especially with the working relationship that should have existed between Brownlee and Fitzsimons.
A National Party that cares for the environment?
The truth is as plain as the smirk on Gerry’s face.
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I can’t imagine the Greens being to fond of Jerry at the best of times, is it possible that Jerry got a chunk of his bum bitten off every time they met?
Most divorces involve two parties.
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Shunda – perhaps then, Gerry should stop presenting his considerable *rse to the Greens each time they meet.
Most divorces involve two parties.
You slay me.
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“Shunda – perhaps then, Gerry should stop presenting his considerable *rse to the Greens each time they meet.”
Fair enough fly, lets hope the Greens can still have some influence with the govt though, there is to much at stake here.
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On current form the only stake required is the one that goes through National’s heart. I reckon a toothpick would be oversized.
BJ
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But I have, phil, and can only wonder what it was you heard.
she conceded the ‘muzzling’ (her word) effect of such agreements..
and that a consequence of this breakdown..
will be the greens attacking the government more..on all fronts..
her words totally contradict your assertion..
Go have another listen. What she said was that in the areas where Green MPs are working Ministers, they gain influence for not speaking very publically while negotiations occur. Of course, this is only a reasonable trade if the result is furthering Green Party policy, and if that’s really happening, there is no reason to have to slag the govt publically anyway. Because in energy efficiency the govt failed to hold up it’s end of the agreement and is actually implementing an anti-efficiency strategy, Jeanette wants to slag them (which she’s been doing for months anyway), so that part of the deal is over.
It does not affect the other areas of current work, or even any potential new ones, though I’d be surprised to see many of those from here on. Jeanette was even asked the question directly why not can the whole MoU and her response was “why cut off our nose to spite our face”, noting that in the other three areas, the govt had engaged in good faith and the Greens had gained significant policy influence.
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It’s Bill! It’s Bill!
(I knew it’d be Bill!)
http://www.thestandard.org.nz/and-the-winner-is/
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Great links. Thanks.
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valis..you are always such a partisan booster of whatever is the ‘official party line’..
it begs the question:..
‘are you an ‘official’..?
or alternatively..
..one of their media-team..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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“..Jeanette was even asked the question directly why not can the whole MoU and her response was “why cut off our nose to spite our face”,..”
precisely..
and my argument is..
is that there is no ‘nose’ to ‘cut off’..
and..
“..and the Greens had gained significant policy influence..”
yes..that has always been the ‘official line’..
but surely..looking at the in-the-hand- results..
from over nine long years of this tactic..
you’d have to ask..
‘time for a re-think?’..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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I’m a very active member and have had several different roles. It is true that I’m pretty happy with where the Party sits at present on most topics, so suppose I do mainly come across as a booster. But I don’t hesitate to say when I think we make mistakes either.
Re the MoU, I just pointed out that though you argued Jeanette agreed with you that it ‘muzzled’ the Green Party, she in fact said the opposite.
But while you’ve had the wrong end of the stick regarding other aspects of the MoU, there is a fair question to ask about whether our attitude to working with other parties to advance Green policy creates a negative (and I would argue false) perception among voters, particularly regarding the National Party. That’s a debate about political tactics that is ongoing in the Party, I assure you. And as you imply, it can’t be just about National, but Labour as well, as while they are better, they are far from us in so many areas.
The approach has always been that, as a political party, we are in Parliament to make change and not just be a permanent opposition to whoever is in power. It is fair to disagree with that, but I don’t expect it to change.
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all you incrementalists really need to read this..
http://whoar.co.nz/2009/we-have-met-the-deniers-and-they-are-us/
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I feel remarkably unchallenged by this Phil, as I have always advocated for the end of fractional-reserve and the establishment of redeemable currency. The fact that these measures are not APPARENTLY linked to AGW and climate, and that the current economic crisis for the planet offers some scope for them to be done, is where I come from. I don’t get a lot of traction, but I push the concepts at every opportunity with every member of parliament and at almost every party interaction.
The removal of the foundation on which the corporate banksters stand, is the key to actually encompassing the necessary revolution. People don’t understand this stuff. As simply as I can explain it, most people don’t even begin to believe it. The mind baulks at the concept. Even I had trouble believing it when I figured it out and I was physically sick when I fully integrated the ramifications.
Give them something like a real economic system that encourages sustainability rather than unending growth, and the rest of the revolution becomes MUCH easier.
Simply advocating revolution will fail. People don’t get to that level until their situation is quite hopelessly compromised. The planet will be toast.
The advantage of the “end of fractional-reserve” first is that it doesn’t require revolution. It is BEST done by a small player like ourselves first, and it can collapse the entire house of cards that is the global economic system and reform it into a sustainable system.
We CAN change the world.
BJ
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“..People don’t understand this stuff. As simply as I can explain it, most people don’t even begin to believe it. The mind baulks at the concept. Even I had trouble believing it when I figured it out and I was physically sick when I fully integrated the ramifications..”
why don’t you do a bullet-point summary..?
i confess..i don’t ‘get it’..yet..
(i haven’t looked..)
but am open to enlightenment..
and if i ‘get it’..
i can add it to my list of things to bang on about..
eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Phil
There are 5 parts to this. I’ve posted them before to some extent or other. This is the full set, and paying particular attention to the 3rd in the series, the second half of it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVkFb26u9g8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sanOXoWl0kc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTv1fo6sKmo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qicabStQkc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kpSbkaD4tM
Now the deal is that fractional reserve currency requires exponential growth forever in order to achieve stability. The basis of our economic system is an oxymoron.
The results are pretty obvious.
If you want a more tin-hat approach to this you can also consider the assassinated Presidents of the past 200 years and the actions and statements they were making regarding the central bank and the basis of money. Doing the research leads to some scary territory. On second thought maybe the headgear needs to be titanium rather than tin
Related topics…
Economics and physics may be more closely related than we think..
http://www.physorg.com/news176365278.html
Some other references of note…
http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2009/06/thermodynamic-economy.h tml
http://ecen.com/eee9/ecoterme.htm
have fun.
respectfully
BJ
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BJ,
Problem I see is in the transition phase from being beholding to the bankers for money supply to one where the people control the banking.
First step must be to stop borrowing from them, at $50M per day currently, down to nothing is my starter.
But then there would not be enough money to pay the tax recipients. So how to transition from a dependent economy to an independent one.
The transition has to be intrinsically linked with the final independent banking plan.
You made a point earlier regarding the environmental issues that we are leaving for our children.
Well we are leaving them with little economic options if we continue to borrow at existing rates ($50M per day and 5.5% interest)
If the economy does not grow, our children will never be free to tackle any environmental issue. Nor for that matter will this current generation.
So while there is no growth we should not be borrowing.
But I can hear the shouts aready from the likes of PhilU who may well be forced to earn their own living.
PS. Good to see the reference to the ArchDruidReport. Great mind thinking reading that blog.
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so..the new ‘workers party’..led by hone and sue bradford..
would seem to be more on the cards..
eh..?
http://whoar.co.nz/2009/comment-whoarhone-harawira-has-been-asked-to-l eave-the-maori-partyand-stand-as-an-independant/
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Gerrit
There is not a problem I think, in terms of changing away from the fractional reserve and fiat currency. The issue becomes far more obvious once one does that, but the government has the issuing authority to match it. The real problems are deeper and nastier.
Growing the economy is something I am loathe to do without defining what parts of the economy should be encouraged to grow and why and within what limits. We have to do better than before, but there is a subtle gotcha in the definitions of our money as work which is redeemable in NZ.
The value of our money HERE will thus be different from its value everywhere else. One might think of this as a built-in Tobin tax.
We have to build things HERE, and that is where you and I want growth to occur.
The additional production spawns additional employment, and oppportunity and incentives…
However overall “growing the economy” is a concern for me because I in general reckon that “growth is good” is wrong. It isn’t always… but I have gotten a mite tetchy about calling for more “growth” when the only things that seem to go up are the price of a house, the amount of petrol we burn and the amount of other consumption we borrow to finance.
However, I take your point and would like to see productive investment and growth in the non-agriculture productive sector. Might even make a list of things I’d like us to be able to produce.
The thing is that this is wandering into a “centrally planned economy” meme, and that isn’t a good thing.
Government provides the money supply in the new system, but there would be limits on the total amount available. The decisions about who gets what to build what are exquisitely critical.
To date both private and public decision makers have made errors in this process, and indeed, such a process is fraught with risk and difficulty. That’s why people like to invest in houses instead. Everyone understands houses and you can’t go very far wrong. Except that as a country you get handicapped immensely if that’s all you do.
We got the Aluminium and the hydroelectricity largely correct in our last venture in this direction. We have to continue to get things right, and provide some checks and balances on the process. This is where the model of government providing money to the lending banks makes sense. Those banks can still be private. What they cannot do is create money.
++++++++++++++
The money to loan, the money provided in a given month, is all the lending banks get. Borrowers paying back money is a recycling process… that becomes money again available to loan in addition to the government’s creation (which has to be tied to work energy, electricity produced or to be produced).
The problem is that long term loans, like a 30 year mortgage, would still suffer the “time value of money”. That would actually become far more obvious. I am not certain how to resolve all the questions/values.
How does one value a house, the embodied energy, the embodied work… and the land which has no embodied energy or work? We’d eventually evolve the valuations but getting started IS likely to be rough. Need to take some time to think through most of the economic ramifications. Categorically.
respectfully
BJ
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food for thought..?
http://whoar.co.nz/2009/comment-whoarwhy-dont-hone-harawira-and-sue-br adford-form-a-new-political-party/
why is nobody talking about the sub-text/’real’ story around this harawira/maori party brouhaha..?
namely..that harawira..for some time..has been complaining long and hard about what he sees as the maori party selling out to a rightwing national government..
and given how harawira calls a spade a spade..
you can bet he has been beating the ears of sharples/turia et.al..
and this is what any ’split’ will be over..
not that paris holiday..
and not his jibe at goff..
and i still reckon harawira and sue bradford should team up in a new ‘workers/battlers-party’..
harawira will win his northern maori seat…(and so get to bring in bradford/a team of mp’s ..on his coat-tails..)
it’s a natural mix..bradford/harawira..
their politics mesh well..
they would each bring their own constituency..
hard to see how they would not get both the northern maori seat…and crack 5%..
the cherry on the cake is that they are both from kaitaia/the north..
(i don’t know anything of any personality-issues between the two..)
but to me..on a purely political level..
it’s a no-brainer..
and boy..!..are they/a workers/battlers-party ‘needed’..!
(especially in the north..)
currently all the political parties…are squabbling over that ‘centre-ground..
with even the greens announcing their intentions to squat..
so there is a vacuum there..
a vacuum that could be filled..
and of course..such a party would not have just appeal in the north..
they would have a nation-wide constituency..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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this is very cool..!
this is an awe-inspiring/beautiful piece of vid..
as 300,000 birds perform an ariel ballet..
http://whoar.co.nz/2009/300000-birds-move-at-once-video/
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Phil – great bird ballet – we see them down here sometimes, but that’s a spectacular one. There’s a tiny island in a bay here where titi swell in skeins like that in the evening before plummetting down to roost in the ngahere.
Did my email-of-earlier-in-the-week arrive? I’m guessing you’ve been too busy digging to reply
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heh..!..it’s moving into the ‘wracked-with-guilt-at-no-reply file’..
so..soon..
and me..?
just ‘digging’ life..
and sitting here admiring the micro-ecosystem my front yard has become..
and how much the birds like it..
(and how ’strange’ my shaven neighbors look..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Who says we aren’t religious….
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2009/11/gods-work-and-goldm ans-prayer.html
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Got gold? Are you SURE?
http://www.tungsten-alloy.com/en/alloy11.htm
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Frog; Found this Article on an International News Site – (i may have missed Local News)but have seen no word of it here?
Kudos for Minister Mapp?
“Afghan exit plan for NZ troops:
Defence minister Wayne Mapp has admitted that plan includes an
acceptance the Taliban will have to be included in any meaningful new governmentin the country once the Western soldiers leave
http://snipurl.com/t95l7 [http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?”
Not sure how to post the link but the story is on the Information Clearing House site.
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Phil – re lawns, did you ever read Michael Pollan on lawns?
http://www.michaelpollan.com/article.php?id=33
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and written in 1989..
slow learners..aren’t we..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Hell yes, I do reckon every three days…
Let’s do it!
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Me three – there could be more room for General Categories too.
Media Issues, Health Care – maybe a Sports Page – after all we did our bit for Peace in the Muslim World by losing Twice to the Pakistani Cricket Team in Dubai. Haven’t seen so many happy followers of Mohamet for quite a while.
I went to see Labour’s Blog – dull as watching paint dry
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Pollan’s ideas are only some of many on the topic of the tyranny of the lawn. There is a strong, unofficial ‘lose the lawn’ movement here in NZ and we’ve erased many a lawn over the years. We have our sights on the rest still. Keep you posted.
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Good call Mark – many of Frog’s posts are very specific and difficult to make more broad, especially once you’ve noticed the “Please stay on topic” instruction at the top of the box
Not surprisingly, I’d like to see (and contribute to) a gardening thread (there’s more politics in a garden than there is in a beehive!)
Labour Party blog? I was sure you’d say ” dull as watching red paint dry”!
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Well my impression is that the Greens have a Formal Policy Site – so this one has the possibility to be less codified; to garner ideas.
I’m probably a frequent hi-jacker because there is so much happening out there, that doesn’t make the news.
In NZ one has the opportunity to remain uninformed of many of the unpleasant realities out in the wide world.
Some Posters are too poorly informed to take seriously. And this Blog is better than most of it’s kind.
Though plenty are more diligent and gifted (and possibly serious) than I.
One has the luck to travel and examine a plethora of possibilites, or not.
Certainly I look at NZ through different eyes these days.
Most of all I see possibilities everywhere here.
Might breed some miniature horses on the back lawn…
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… and market the horse crabapples as fire starters?
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am getting all the horse puckey i can manage from your servants and mine…
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