phil u

Confusing Bolsheviks with Marxists is wrong just as confusing Marx with Marxists is also wrong.

The Catholic Church has rehabilitated Marx, but their aversion to Bolsheviks and Marxists is undiminished – if even they now get the difference between the theoretical dialectic, as in using Hegel’s change dynamic to bring about a more just society (by posing a dictatorship of the proletariat – threat, if the poor working class are not empowered by inclusion within democracy – appeased). I regard Marx as trying to bring about Fabian socialism/social inclusion for the dispossessed, simply by declaring they had an equal right to disposses their lords and masters, and for the sake of social cohesion people should choose to get along and concede a place for all in the democratic process.

Unfortunately some Marxists tried to win it all confusing the means to equality for all (claim of right to rule challenge to existing privilege and or capitalist elitism/oligarchy) with the end (trying to win power into their hands, rather than bringing in true democracy and egalitarianism).

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of course not..!

we’re mensheviks..!

not marxists..!

phil(whoar.co.nz)

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“so..how does that meld with the contemptuous/denigrating of greens shundra that appears at kiwiblog at regular intervals..?

with language/tone/tenor blending seamlessly with that of the resident rightwing trolls..?”

Phil I confess to writing some less than friendly stuff, but that was mostly a long time ago when I first started doing the blog thing. I have tried to be more civil and constructive in recent months, but please keep me honest by posting any offending comments here for all to see if you feel the need. Truth is you seem to see my criticism of individual politicians as criticism of the environmental movement, any politician is fair game as far as I am concerned green or otherwise.

Greenfly said:

“But Shunda, you might like to re-write/think this sweeping claim”

Fair enough, I have yet to master the art of not making sweeping generalisations, perhaps I am still trying to look at everything from the big picture.

SPC said:

“As for sb, I suspect he can be educated about environment issues, but will retain a long term aversion for social liberal progressives (who he confuses with left wing) even if he ultimately signed off on Green environment policy.”

I confess to confusing the left wing/liberal thing a bit, but I am trying to better understand the various ideals and motivations that drive these people. I will say that I now believe there are many people on the “left” that are sincere and really do want to make a difference for the better.
Turns out you are not all Marxists

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There’s a lot of that “Green is OK but those greenies are too left wing” – it enables people to say they are not anti-environment when they vote National.

At least openly denigrating the environment cause is being supplanted with denigrating those of the left who have been or still are part of it.

The problem of course is do these pro-environment anti-lefties actually support Green policies, or just claim to be pro-environment but yet oppose policies to protect the environment (like farmers who claim to be personally pro-environment and know of many other such farmers – but who oppose any attempt to regulate farm practice to ensure what they do is required for all farmers).

As for sb, I suspect he can be educated about environment issues, but will retain a long term aversion for social liberal progressives (who he confuses with left wing) even if he ultimately signed off on Green environment policy. Similarly there are “one or two” who have obvious right wing tendencies in economic/social policy settings.

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To be fair to Shunda, I’ve read some very surprising, hard hitting, pro-environment statements from him, over on Fartblog and I’ve cheered him on (unable as I am to write in support).

But Shunda, you might like to re-write/think this sweeping claim

The only difference between me and other greenies is that I don’t share the love for extremist left wing thinking.

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so..how does that meld with the contemptuous/denigrating of greens shundra that appears at kiwiblog at regular intervals..?

with language/tone/tenor blending seamlessly with that of the resident rightwing trolls..?

mmm..??

(as i said)..’highway one’..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)

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aye..!

(cue swelling chorus/strings..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)

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“i just never get used to the bullshit from righties trolls..

..pretending..for whatever reason..to be ‘friendly/open’ to greens/green ideas..

as we both know shunda..you are full of it..eh..?”

Here we go again. The only difference between me and other greenies is that I don’t share the love for extremist left wing thinking, I see it as just as destructive to society as the crap you are trying to cast out.
What you are really saying is because I don’t fit the typical green stereotype, because I am not “hard core” I must be illegitimate.
You are wrong Phil, and for the record I have learnt a great deal from frog blog, I have changed my thinking on a number of issues and realised that there is truth to both sides of the story.

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i am vegan .. hear me roar …?

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but y’see shundra,,it’s not about you..or about me..

it’s about the unimaginable/hidden cruelties done to the animals..

oh..!..i guess you could throw ‘fecking the environment’ in there as well..

you do not factor morality/ethics into your choices around food..

most don’t..

and..i am not in the halfway house that is vegetarian..

eating cheese/dairy still means those animals suffer..

i am vegan..

phil(whoar.co.nz)

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Phil

Pointing it out is fine. Some of us actually agree with you realistically and philosophically. Reminding us of it periodically is good.

Some agree in part… as in I don’t accept the notion that lacto-ovo is somehow still “evil” for instance… but I surely don’t need beef in my borscht. That’s my mother-in-law’s idea and arguing with my Russian Mother-In-Law has a degree of difficulty that beats the hell out of anything I argue here

Just accept that this is one of those things that is really hard to change.

…and I still find it weird that Porterhouse can be half the price of a decent swiss cheese. Somehow we have to work out where the economics have gone astray.

respectfully
BJ

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I can appreciate and respect your choice to be vegetarian Phil, but I can’t respect your demands that all people follow your ideals or your intolerance of those that don’t , that is called bigotry my friend.

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is everyone ok with greens who eat animals ..

..being called ‘carni-greens’..?

(‘cos we do need to differentiate/identify..

so..any other suggestions..?)

phil(whoar.co.nz)

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“..Not coming over as a raving lunatic tends to help too…”

wow..!..top critical analysis there..!..tiger..!

“..Try not deliberatly alienating those that could potentially be your converts..”

would pointing out to those calling themselves ‘green’ the obvious glaring contradiction of their eating animals..?

would that come under that ‘alienating’ category..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)

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what is the ‘nice/polite/correct’ way to ‘express and promote’ them..?

sapient..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)

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…just the way one goes about expressing and promoting them.

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and what exactly is wrong with the ideas i ‘push’..?

ending the madness of doing what causes half of our greenhouse-problems..(ie..meat/dairy..)

ending the madness of social injustice/inequalities..
(and their attendant social costs..)

ending the madness of prohibition of the least harmful intoxicant of all..

a herb that is actually a proven health aid/cure..

(irony alert!:..while we are pushing/socially-approving/celebrating alcohol consumption..)

(with the attendant social costs..)

wanting new zealand to undergo the massive changes we have to..as soon as possible..

exactly w.t.f.is so ‘wrong’ with those ideas..?

that it should be some mark of cain..

to be seen to be ‘siding with’ them..?

..or their author/booster..?

eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)

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