Fin,
In an unbiased manner? Perhaps not as I had not intended it as an actual arguement but rather as a dig at phil since I had not done so in a long time.
There is an important difference between creatine and anabolic steroids. Creatine has almost no negative side effects, the one exception being that some suggest high levels may be of detriment to bone calcium; though notibly supplimenting calcium as well is ment to increase the effect over that of calcium alone with relation to bone strength. Anabolic steroids on the other hand have many many side effects which are detrimental to the body and their main effect vastly increases the energy use of the body, this being even more detrimental. Because of this the point at which the marginal benefit is at the marginal cost is much higher with creatine than with anabolic steroids; that point, where that point is at that time, being what is ultimately approached by evolution.
As with all chemicals which have effect in the brain, the brain plasticity will of course adapt. This however takes time. A childs ability to use creatine and transport creatine would take a substantial amount of time to develop to the levels needed for full functioning as a vegetarian or, worse, a vegan. Breast milk contains creatine, as does cows milk, so technically a vegetarian child should not be disadvantaged, only a vegan child once weaned as that would be imposing the need for that adaption, and the mental impairment on the child in their most formative years. Even assuming that they are given the ovo and lacto to counter this they will be impaired when they stop such; disadvantagous at any point in the first 20 to 30 years.

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The use of any smart-drugs at all is significantly uncomfortable to the medical community. They don’t know what to make of something that is apparently useful for raising performance above one’s normal level. Much like things that might assist in living longer. These are frowned on too… although a significant amount of study has taken place. Usually TPTB try to knock it with studies that are not exactly relevant.

Gamma E-Tocopherol is tarred with the same brush as the synthetic alpha. Studies of other drugs effectiveness at preventing heart disease is evaluated only with respect to people who have already had heart attacks… etc. I don’t pay TPTB much attention any more. They have an interest in ensuring that I die on schedule and don’t foul up the actuarial tables too much. I don’t think that that is a really good idea for ME however, so I look for the research that is actually relevant.

Not that I can afford much supplementation, but I do keep tabs. I know some of this stuff works well when this old dog has to learn a new trick. So people who tell me “no” tend to be disbelieved. Personal experience and knowledge. I can’t pass it on, I can’t “prove” it. I can however, know.

respectfully
BJ

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Sapient, thanks for your info on creatine.
I’m not convinced that you have presented the data in an unbiased manner.
You say that if levels were optimum then there’d be no improvement from supplementation.
Using that logic, we should all be taking anabolic steroids.
The article you cite was not comparing vege’s/vegans to omni’s and yet you make this claim. The article (you cite) also states
“It has also been suggested that a “creatine cycle” exists between cells in the brain so that a combination of synthesis and transport routes would be required to maintain brain creatine levels (Möller & Hamprecht, 1989; Dringen et al., 1998). In vegetarians it is likely that the synthesis route is upregulated. Chronic ingestion of creatine has been shown to result in down-regulation of the vegetarians has been shown to produce similar increases in muscle performance to that seen in omnivores (Shomrat et al., 2000)”
This is despite lower levels in vege’s than omni’s to begin with!!

Also the study states “We would therefore expect to see a beneficial effect of creatine supplementation on brain performance in the vast majority of omnivores apart from those who consume very high amounts of meat (~2 kg day).”
Is this the diet you’re reccomending?

The article finishes by saying “Long term supplementation with creatine has yet to be declared truly safe, with reported effects on glucose homeostasis (Rooney et al., 2003) and other side effects (Terjung et al., 2000)” “These [beneficial] effects may …. be of use to those requiring boosted mental performance in the short term.”

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Good catch Phil

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Hardly surprising… I reckon the party in power to be comprised mainly of the criminally insane at this point.

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Who’d have thought! Green’s and National’s conservation and energy policies incompatible! Bolt from the blue!

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is this true..?

http://whoar.co.nz/2009/after-the-honeymoon-divorce-greens-break-up-with-nationalfitzsimons-and-brownlee-cannot-work-together/

“..The Greens have walked away from part of their working arrangement with the government.

Jeanette Fitzsimons revealed exclusively to Pundit a relationship breakdown in the energy efficiency and conservation portfolio

Last month, here on Pundit, I speculated that all was not well between the Greens and the government.

Former co-leader Jeanette Fitzsimons did not wish to comment then, but now she’s speaking out.

The Greens have concluded that the energy efficiency and conservation part of the relationship is unsustainable ..

.. she and Gerry Brownlee cannot work together..

.. and energy efficiency and conservation should, therefore, be deleted from the National-Greens memorandum of understanding (MOU).”..

phil(whoar.co.nz)

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BB

I like democracy just fine.

I also like being honest enough to KEEP my agreements with people.

All of them. Even the ones that are “inconvenient”.

Moot point in another 100 years when WE become the minority.

Don’t you think that maybe FIXING the problem would be a good idea… ?

respectfully
BJ

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The Treaty protects the rights of the Tangata Whenua
All born New Zealanders are Tangata Whenua
Problem solved!

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heh bjchip. You may be right, but it will never happen, not in a million years. I just can’t see the majority of people accepting it

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Not a fan of democracy then BJ?

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A constitutional convention leading to a two house parliament with Maori signatories to the treaty and other tribes that may not have signed being given the opportunity to participate, forming the second “house”… superseding the Treaty. Arrangements around this/besides this I’d not imagine, but that is the PROPER way to deal with it, and the Maori have to have an EQUAL say in the outcome of the convention, no matter the numbers. They are equal partners in this country. THAT is an outcome defined by the treaty and ethically required in any change to it.

respectfully
BJ

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Greenfly,

hasn’t happened yet and I’ve Maori friends with tremendous memories.

But do they have answers?

Do you have a clear picture of the end game that will make Maori happy? What is it and share it with us, the great unwashed.

Last time I asked frog said it was an ungoing “process”.

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Gerrit – no clear picture and no end in sight? For whom? ‘People’ – us great unwashed might not have a clear view, but the doesn’t mean there isn’t a solution. Much progress has been made and the issue is not unravellable at all. The ‘people’ lack a clear picture, perhaps as a result of nay-sayers wishing that to be the case, or perhaps through lack of constructive information. IMHO.
As to your final sentence … hasn’t happened yet and I’ve Maori friends with tremendous memories.

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Greenfly,

The biggest reason that they dont care anymore is that there is no end in sight nor a clear picture of what and how to fix the greiveances.

Even the aggrieved have no clear picture, so how are the grandchildren of the aggressor supposed to “fix” the injustices?

The Maori issue will simply fade away over the next 50 odd years.

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People just don’t care any more

But there are certainly people who do care still. Should their cares, especially those based on actual injustices, be dismissed because other people don’t care anymore?
Hmmmm…
People may be too busy, to ignorant and too divorced from the issues to care, but I don’t believe that’s enough to dump the core issue unresolved or those who have kept abreast of them.

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Greenfly

Through having made good any injustices, or through ignorance of the issues?

Neither.

People just dont care anymore.

Hold a referendum and ask “Is the treaty of Waitangi relevant to your life” and the answer I would guess discussing this in South Auckland is No.

People are to busy to worry about a treaty that no longer has any relevance to them and past grievences that are totally unfixable.

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Fin,
Notice the use of the word “adequate”.
The creatine synthesis of the liver provides approximatly fifty percent of the creatine of a meat eating individual and, while entirely sufficent for functioning, that study clearly shows that in vegetarians the creatine level is bellow the ideal level as the change in cognitive capacity found as a result of creatine supliments is strongly indicitive of an impoverished environment with relation to this chemical. If they were already at ideal levels no benefit would be noticed. Since a benefit is noticed they are thus at sub-ideal levels and thus suffeing from a deficency.

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Sapient, re creatine “The endogenic synthesis of creatine in the human liver is adequate for normal functioning of the human body. In other words, vegetarians do not suffer from creatine deficiency even though vegetables do not contain creatine” http://www.creatinejournal.com/creatine-supplement-what-is-creatine/

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Actually was pretty sure that the recipient released it.

Was pointing out that EVERY thing you post is readable at several stages along its route to its ultimate destination and it may leave copies at any of them and in at least one common case it absolutely does.

Which means that you do not write anything in any e-mail about anything you seriously want to keep private. You do not sent people passwords. You do not sent people private account information. You do not explain any activity that the authorities might take an interest in… and you don’t use Outlook for anything at all ever.

“The issue isn’t whether you are paranoid, it is whether you are paranoid ENOUGH”

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