by frog
Published in THE GAME by frog on Wed, November 4th, 2009
Tags: general debate
General Debate, November 4, 2009
Published: November 4, 2009
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on the trolls and those who are unable to keep on topic
Good column from Rudman this morning on the Foreshore.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10607079
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some star-pics for ya..
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Yes – Very good Rudman column. Brash’s attempt to brand his Seabed and Foreshore policy “a mistake” has removed any vestige of respect I could find for the man.
Had he said “Sorry, I was being cynical and opportunist, disregarded the principles I claim to believe in, and figured promoting racism and divisiveness was worth it if it got me into power” or even “I’m so stupid I didn’t realise what I was doing” I might have given him some points for honesty.
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Indeed, Sam. But Brash voted against the Civil Union Bill – against his belief and despite having formerly supported it – to try to get the homophobic fundie brigade to line up behind National.
Those who exploit bigotry to gain power are worse than the bigots themselves.
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Well Sam, I’m very tired of Gerry Brownlee and he never does anything !
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For more than two months, 400 barrels of oil a day has been pouring into the sea in Timor – then the oil rig explodes – and now the media is interested!! F F S !!!
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Well Sam, I’m very tired of Gerry Brownlee and he never does anything !
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/3030670/Brownlee-spills-on-Mokihinui-hydro-electricity-project
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That sounds promising Stephen!
That Gerry! He’s a lardacious dude!
(Is ‘not doing’ something the same as ‘never doing anything’?)
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The Werewolf writes about ‘P’. Very interesting indeed.
“There are two medical conditions that sort of sum the impact up. The first is called ‘anergia’ – it simply means you become bloody useless (and thus a drain on everyone else).
The other is called ‘anhedonia’, and it relates to the sufferer’s inability to experience natural pleasure.”
http://werewolf.co.nz/2009/11/politics-in-the-p-pipe/
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“Those who exploit bigotry to gain power are worse than the bigots themselves. ”
So labour are developing a new strategy then?
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Ask us a Green question, Shunda.
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Greenfly, the next time you talk about big Jerry I am going to remind you this is a green party blog.
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Curiously twisted logic there Shunda! Green Party members can surely talk about the lardelicious Gerry til the cows come home – he’s a Big Issue for us, with his anti-environment blow and bluster.
Hit us with your best questions on Green issues, not some second-hand, some-other-party’s-yesterday’s-news!
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Ok fly, ok.
What do you rekon about these wilding conifers? We could probably actually have a net carbon sequestering effect if we stopped killing these trees or, heaven forbid, planted some more down that barren eastern side of the Alps.
I can’t stop thinking about the possibilities with this, it could realistically sequester carbon for the next 200 odd years!!
Act locally, think globally.
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Shunda – you mean ‘don’t’ act locally.
You’re going to frighten a lot of farmers by suggesting that we let wilding pines rampage across the landscape.
It’s an idea that deserves exploring. It would mean that x-litres of herbicide wouldn’t be sloshed about the countryside as well, but then you’d have DOC up in arms in defense of their patches.
Have you stood inside a stand of pinus contorta ?
It’s often wise to get amongst it before declaring something a panacea.
There is merit in the suggestion though.
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Will any of you be brave enough to have a crack at John Harawhira for his latest abuse of tax payer money?
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10607323
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paratanui, it takes no bravery to shoot a sitting duck like that. I take it your are incensed at Rodney for wasting even more money, right?
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Of course I am angry at Rodney, but unlike the Greens I am not afraid to have a crack at anybody who thinks they have a right to waste my money simply because they are brown.
John Harawhira is as much of a trougher as English, Hide and Delahunty, all of them deserve to be questioned and all of them deserve to be ridiculed for what amounts to theft.
Not that I expect you to understand that Valis.
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That Rodders! Talk about two-faced! Roger Douglas and Rodney Hide must be two of the most despicable, hypocritical troughers in the house today. Hang your heads in shame actoids!
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What utter crap Fly.
The Greens will NEVER have a crack at anybody who is brown, you guys will continue to make excuses for the apartheid party and will continue to stick your head in the sand lest you be accused of being culturally insensitive.
Perhaps you would be better advised to clean up your own “act” before having a go at Rodney or Sir Roger, stealing money from the tax payer for your superannuation fund is not a good look really.
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National, Act and the Maori Party. Sounds like a cosy little nest, feathered with priveledge to me.
It was you who said Rodney was a thief, btw.
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Actually if you read over this blog, you’ll find the Greens have been hassling the Maori party fairly frequently.
However, things that don’t fit into BB’s rather simplistic view of the world don’t exist.
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Does Winnie count?
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“Bro – let’s recap”
Yes, let’s. We have MP’s sticking their heads into the public trough, they come from every party, indeed, the Greens are some of the most outstanding troughers in the house.
You might remember the rort to get Comrade Russ into the house so the Greens could steal my money to use for campaigning purposes, then we had the little gem about the Greens stealing my money to pay for their superannuation fund, of course if you want to go right back we had the Greens stealing more of my money for the 2005 election campaign as well.
Where is the “outrage” from you when the Greens are caught stealing Fly?
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glenn beck ..and the head of peta ..rip into al gore..for his hypocritical/double-standard ways..
by being an ‘environmentalist/green-activists’..
who still eats animals..(wazzup..!..carni-greens..!..)
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Oh, BB – I don’t particularly mind Hone ducking off to Paris from Brussels, but I do mind him and the rest of him being flown over to some jaunt to talk to Euro MPs.
Unless there’s more likelihood of a useful outcome from this trip than meets the eye, I would have expected him, and the rest of them, to ask why the hell their time is being wasted on some cafe creme euro-junket when there’s plenty to do at home. Short of an unexpectedly good answer, they shouldn’t have gone. Critical enough for you?
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Sam
See, that was not hard was it?
I agree, there was no earthly reason for John Harawhira and the two other non entities to make the trip in the first place, if John wants to take his Mrs (who paid for her trip?) to France then he can pay for it himself.
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Rodney didn’t do anything that Politicicians haven’t been doing since Taxes were first thought of.
That he has been ‘outed’ and ‘set-up’ should be obvious to any willing to give it a moment’s thought.
Bro; ‘Having a Crack’ at people leaves you with a range of Cracked People. It is the wrong approach to Life.
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Bro – no response from you to my 10:17 questions?
Troughing is of minor importance when compared to the loss of our freedom, which is something I was sure you would be deeply committed to.
No?
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http://whoar.co.nz/2009/being-vegan-in-a-speciesist-world/
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“..That he has been ‘outed’ and ’set-up’ should be obvious to any willing to give it a moment’s thought..”
um..!..no..mark..
rodneys’ wallow in the travel-trough came to light in the regular release of m.p’s expenses..
so..it was all his own work..eh..?
and i mean..he can handle public humiliation..
remember the yellow-jacket.?..the dancing..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Fly
I did not reply because it is far from clear what the hell you are on about.
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HAVE YOU NOT NOTICED???
Act supporters should be screaming at the top of their lungs about the loss of freedoms, but instead, they are needlessly defending their greedy ministers over travel claims.
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Fly
I do not expect you to be able to understand this but being a member of a conservative party does not mean that one has to blindly support every piece of legislation your party puts before the house.
Having said that I have no problem at all with “the loss of the right to remain silent, the seizing of assets prior to conviction, the taking of DNA from citizens on suspicion of crime etc. etc. etc.”
Only those who care more about criminal scum than victims would be against these moves.
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Oh, and fools.
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http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0911/S00063.htm
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here is the drugs adviser fired by the british govt..for talking sense on drugs..
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http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/politics/3032407/Key-doesn-t-do-anything-Rodney-Hide
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http://www.thestandard.org.nz/chilling/
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“Sam
See, that was not hard was it?”
Nope, because the difficulty only exists in your imagination.
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Fair enough – I quite like Rodney the Man (a matter of my nature) – the behaviour is what is at issue, and I’m not backing that….I suggest an emerging Pattern – National’s Bedmates are being made to look silly – the result is a hugely diminished support fot MMP and, gee, guess what, it’s on the table for Deletion all of a sudden?
Not a cynic, but I don’t believe in Coincidence much either…
Ps Uncle Tom had some great quotes y’day.
“If pigs could vote, the man with the slop bucket would be elected swineherd every time, no matter how much slaughtering he did on the side.” – –Orson Scott Card (1951- ) Novelist
“Vote: The instrument and symbol of a free man’s power to make a fool of
himself and a wreck of his country.” – Ambrose Bierce-
(1842-1914) Humorist
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You’re using a deep probe there Mark.
If you are correct, there are some seriously Machivalean drivers in the Seats of Power.
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“ Without Bill, our latex travelling outfits might have been badly compromised. The Ludds obviously have a distorted and regrettable view of who is and isn’t deserving of special treatment, where John Key is very ‘relaxed’ and supportive of our junket. I say to the Ludds, “ You lost, we won etc. etc.”.
After stowing Bill in an overhead locker and dismissing the Ludds as ‘try-hards’, GaGa members took their seats for what promised to be an exciting and never-to-be-forgotten ride on the pigs back.
(Updates as they come in)
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Which may explain the current half-assed way things are being run, given where their heads were at at the time.
BJ
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Well Fly; Once MMP is ditched, 100 Years of National Greatness is just a gerrymander away (and Gerry has done a ‘Dick Cheney – where is he?).
A re-drawing of Electoral Boundaries perhaps? Seen it done over literally murderous decades in OZ – wish I didn’t know some of this shizen…you think these sly dogs are without an agenda?
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http://whoar.co.nz/2009/vegan-1-2-3-what-do-vegans-eat/
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Disneyland! No no no!
SNORT!
(rhymes with ‘rort’)
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It seems we may be able to solve global warming after all, with plants:
“The Newsweek article states:
“If we feed the biology and manage grasslands appropriately, we could sequester as much carbon as we emit,” says Timothy LaSalle, CEO of the Rodale Institute, who presented at two summits. The political clash is this: if you tell people soils can be managed to suck up lots of our carbon emissions, it sounds like a get-out-of-jail-free card, and could decrease what little enthusiasm there is for reducing those emissions—as one of Gore’s assistants told LaSalle in asking him to dial down his estimate. (He didn’t.)”
Well we can’t have the problem solved before certain “objectives” have been achieved now can we!!
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Quick!…stick your heads in the sand again Greenies.
The racist brown thug has been at it again.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/3037942/Harawira-email-attacks-white-man-bulls-t
I can just imagine how you lot would be screaming if the email was written by a non Maori.
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thug?
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Ha ha, negative Karma for daring to point out racist behaviour from John Harawhira.
Can I take it that the Greens agree with John Harawhira?
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‘Daring’ Bro – you think you are ‘daring’ posting about Hone Harawira? You reckelss rascal!
Thinking aloud … Big Bro…Hone Harawira… who to trust ..?
I know!!!
Hone!
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I thought this response on the Stuff site was good,
Quite refreshing to see a politician so open about their missuse of taxpayers money and racist attitude. Makes a nice change from the usual weaseling that John Key and his party does so well.
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So you agree with John Harawhira?, is that what you are saying Fly?
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How can you see Hone Harawira as anything but racist greenfly? you are actually defending the guy?
The reason he gets away with it is because he has got balls and NZ is not really used to knowing how to deal with a male with cahonies.
But that in it self is no reason to accept his behaviour, the guy has no respect for the position he holds.
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Shunda – he’s a lot of things ‘other than a racist’. Is ‘racist’ all you see him as?
I’m hardly defending him and I don’t think he needs me to.
the guy has no respect for the position he holds.
I thought we admired people who aren’t bowed/infected by the trappings of office.
I know I do.
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Greenfly you think this is acceptable?
“White motherfuckers have been raping our lands and ripping us off for centuries and all of a sudden you want me to play along with their puritanical bullshit.”
Is not an attitude I can admire, by the way he was responding to a Maori chap that was calling him on his lack of integrity.
I suggest you should revisit your admiration of somebody that has no respect for the position he holds and ultimately no respect for the Maori people.
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Fly
How would you react if a non Maori MP made racist comments?
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I’ve a question for you Bro. Hone Harawira isn’t a Green MP. The Greens haven’t come out in support of his comments. Why aren’t you asking these questions on a Maori Party blog? Hone is part of the Government, along with Rodney Hide, whom you charge with thieving. Why not ask your questions over on John Key’s blog? After all, Key chose Harawira to join the Government! Another stuff-up, I suppose, like choosing Melissa Lee, or Christine Rankin, or Richard Worth or the back-stabbing Rodney Hide! Key’s judgement is really crap, if you ask me. Fancy choosing the decrepit Roger Douglas to be part of the Government of our country. Hopeless! Why not ask Bill English, fellow rorter to Hone and Rodney, what he thinks?
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The reason I ask the question here Fly is because the Green party are well known for their apologist attitude they have toward all things Maori.
You guys are right behind dividing our country on racial grounds, you are right behind creating two nations yet there is deafening silence when something like this happens.
I know you guys remain silent when another little Maori child is killed, that is a given seeing the lies you told when you passed the anti smacking bill, however. I would have hoped that one of the Green party leaders would have been quick to condemn such blatant racist behaviour.
Shame on the Greens and shame on you Greenfly.
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BB – maybe you’re getting bad karma for your continuing inability to spell a fairly prominent MP’s name?
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Oh, and one more thing Fly.
Do you think that pompous fool Kennedy Graham might be feeling just a little bit dumber than normal given today’s events in Texas?
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Sam
I thought that Maori liked the letter “H”
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“You guys are right behind dividing our country on racial grounds, ”
Actually, BB, it’s you that brings race into everything. You could slag off Hone for ripping off the taxpayer – same as all the other MPs, of all ethnicities do – but that ain’t enough for you. You’ve just gotta turn it into a race issue.
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“I thought that Maori liked the letter “H” ”
Why do you waste your time here when you could be larking around at the local kindergarten?
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What utter rubbish Sam.
John Haraw(h)ira is the one who turned this into a race issue, he used language that the Greens want to see outlawed yet for some PC reason when John uses language like that you remain strangely silent.
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Bro – you’ve over-heated mate! It’s because Rodney has revealed himself a hypocritical trougher and worse, he’s made a tit of himself because of his girly friend. It’s embarrassing for us too, Bro, but we’re not spazzing out on some other party’s blog. Get stuck into Rodney and tell him he’s humiliated himself and his followers with his unbecoming conduct. My question to you Bro – who will you support now? Rodney’s become the very thing you rail against. Douglas has already been exposed as a trougher and an arrogant one at that – who’s left for you? Heather? They’re getting mighty thin on the ground, Bro. Mighty thin.
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Fly
I would like to ask you the same question, how can you continue to support the Greens given they have been exposed as troughers and liars re the housing rort.
Does that mean you have to follow Comrade Sue and leave the party?, or will you just go on being a hypocrite?
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And are you guys not the same ones who got stuck into Laws when he made his perfectly reasonable comments to the Levin school kids?
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big bro wrote:
“Do you think that pompous fool Kennedy Graham might be feeling just a little bit dumber than normal given today’s events in Texas?”
Why do you think a mass shooting in the US would make Kennedy Graham feel dumb?
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Bro – it’s polite to answer a question before setting one of your own. Be polite.
You’re a wind-up, Bro. I don’t think anyone regards your rants here as anything but …rants! You’ve one well-honed ability, there’s no denying, and that’s to ignore all new information in favour of the opinion that has already concreted itself into your head before you arrived here at the Frogblog. While you are sometimes fun to toy with, it’s essentially an unrewarding game. I’ve a question for you (as asking each other questions seems to be the tikanga (bet that rankled!) – HOW, Bro, are you going to whip up a personal hatred for Metiria, the way you did for our other glorious women MPs? You seem at a loss to find things to demean her over! I know you’ve tried to run with the ‘what’s that hunk of stone hanging around her neck’ line but it hasn’t resonated and I reckon your heart’s not in it. You’re in a bind over it, I know. If I come up with anything, I’ll let you know.
Hate to see you struggling.(I’m actually thinking that you like her, Bro! Yikes!)
Once again I advise you Bro, shed some of that anger by confronting Rodney – tell him how betrayed you feel! It’ll at least allow you to get some sleep of a night. I only say this to you because I care.
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Laws, btw, is an ass.
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Fly
As usual you don’t bother letting the facts get in the way of your lies.
Where do I start!, well, the word “tikanga” does not rankle as I have no idea what it means, I suspect it is a Maori word and as such I have no desire to find out what it means.
I will admit to having a crack at some of your wimin MP’s (each and every one of them being deserved of any criticism) but apart from voicing concern about Sue K’s lack of results re animal cruelty I have no real issues with her, come to think of it, I do not remember ever having a go at Jeanette either.
I suspect Sue K has been conned (like many of your voters) by the hard left of the Green party into thinking that you guys actually care about the issue of animal welfare, indeed, I even promised you both of my votes if you made the issue of animal welfare a bottom line in any pre election negotiation criteria.
I do not consider my posts to be a wind up Fly (unlike your juvenile trolling over at KB) I consider them to be valid questions posed by an ex Green party voter and one who would gladly vote for the Greens again if I thought you were serious about doing something about animal cruelty.
Finally, I am touched by your concern Fly, but you can rest easy, I sleep well in my bed, I am content and happy with the way that the Auckland super city is going and happy that we might finally see the beginnings of a real attack on welfare bludgers in New Zealand.
You however really need to seek some help, obviously the way the Greens were exposed as ripping off the tax payer re the housing rort seems to be having an major affect on you.
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Tikanga is a Maori word that means ‘bitterness as a result of Acting hypocritically’.
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Really?
I guess you spend a lot of time being bitter then Fly.
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This is classic, it says my comment is awaiting moderation, it seems the honourable Hone Harawira is a little too potty mouthed to quote on frog blog.
I will try to repost with a little editing, here goes:
Greenfly you think this is acceptable?
“White motherf@$%@rs have been raping our lands and ripping us off for centuries and all of a sudden you want me to play along with their puritanical bullsh!t.”
It’s not an attitude I can admire, by the way he was responding to a Maori chap that was calling him on his lack of integrity.
I suggest you should revisit your admiration of somebody that has no respect for the position he holds and ultimately no respect for Maori either.
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I am appalled, but not surprised by Harawira’s attitude/comments. The Maori party IS a party formed on a racist basis, so it’s hardly surprising it’s representatives are racist.
I wait with baited breath for Maori (any Maori) to demand his removal. Met, how about you?
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Shunda – you’re funny!
by the way he was responding to a Maori chap that was calling him on his lack of integrity.
Did you read the email from the Maori ‘chap’?
Is it just the word ‘white’ that upsets you Shunda?
Or ‘puritanical’
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Bomber @ Tumeke! is suggesting that Hone should jump waka and join the Greens!
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“Is it just the word ‘white’ that upsets you Shunda?”
Greenfly are you serious or are you just a bit of a cat among the pigeons kind of guy?
Hone is behaving like a w@nker, Maori deserve better.
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greenfly wrote:
“Bomber @ Tumeke! is suggesting that Hone should jump waka and join the Greens!”
I don’t know if he would be willing to commit to the ‘positive politics pledge’
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Shunda – Hone’s words were intemperate, but I can recognise integrity when I meet it.
He’s the only one from ‘that crew’ that I had rapport with.
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hone is pissed at the maori party for selling out to national..
that is the subtext to this..
and (i’ve said it b4..)
..hone and sue bradford should form a new leftwing/workers/battlers-party..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Shunda barunda
Hone is right to say that Pakeha had fornicated with Maori women who had (or soon would have) children and right to say Pakeha ripped property off Maori. One can see evidence of this in Pakeha ownership of farmland and the lack of full-blooded Maori. He’s not making this up.
He was wrong to say this had been done over centuries (not yet we haven’t but maybe in a few decades).
His claim that Pakeha had raped the land, possibly refers to leaving it in a worse condition than when they first stole it. Look at the recent research about waterway quality.
He’s not lying and his colourful use of language is obviously an expression of his emotion about the time he had in Paris and having to pay for it afterwards. Sure he resorted to base resentment at all the Pakeha wrongdoing to question the value of the cultural order which was holding him to account – that’s not surprising.
He’s only saying this is not a biggie in the scheme of things and unlike Rodney he would be paying the money back (for failing to meet the terms for the expenses paid trip).
You would have to simply not like his politics or his party to make much of this.
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Sue K on sow crates, just for bro.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=id6bgCqR64I&feature=sdig&et=1257494218.13
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SPC please tell me you are taking the piss.
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Who me? No not really.
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“..I don’t know if he would be willing to commit to the ‘positive politics pledge’..”
does that explain the absence of (much-needed) ‘mongrel’..?
the ‘pp-pledge’..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Phil – the pppledge has me curious too. Can we have a look at?
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Quick! Hide! They’ve found out about Hawaii!
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10607845
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Trimmed-down Rodney will be putting it all back on, given the size of the Humble Pie he just ate!
Don’t
believe
a
word
of
it
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Phil – your send the pimply-faced b*stards ‘down the mines’
post on Fartblog is a a gem!
Nice work.
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Oh my!
Sir Roger said yesterday that he was aware Mr Hide would repay the money for his partners overseas travel, but the line went dead when asked if he would follow suit. Efforts to reconnect were unsuccessful.
Sounds like he died.
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Why is the environment the most important thing we address.
http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/527/oceans-climate-change.html
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BJ,
What I’m finding increasingly disparaging is the fact that ANY change to ANY environment is neccessarily caused by climate change/global warming.
There have been major changing in the environment in the past such as this one
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oruanui_eruption
where
Currently what I’m seeing is every environmental change being attributted to man made climate change/global warming.
When obviously there have been massive climate and environmental changes on earth caused by natural occurrences.
Super volcanoes being just one. With Taupo but the latest in a string of explosions.
Sure, blame man made climate change/global warming on those where science can prove cause and effect. But lets be mindful not everything that changes in nature is man made.
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Gerrit – which current environmental changes do you believe should not be attributed to man made climate change(or are at least contributing to it)?
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I know Gerrit. It DOES seem to be an emphasis that the media puts on things and it is probably wrong at least 10% of the time IN THE MEDIA. The scientists are a bit more careful about attribution.
…and even that eruption, massive as it was, didn’t do as much to the climate as we are doing.
The scary thing is the rate. The fact that it is a step increase in CO2 (on geologic timescales). It is not like other events. This is an almighty big hammer hitting a complex system, and I expect it to ring like a bell before it settles. Since the ringing is going to manifest itself as weather I think we’re in deep poo.
Way deeper than Rodney or Hone have gotten themselves in.
relatively speaking
respectfully
BJ
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Greenfly,
If we look at the Waikato River channel to the Tasman we find that, quite naturally, the environment changed where the river created a new channel roughly a kilometer south from the old one. A delta is starting to form (and the fishing improved).
On my daily walks around the Manukau I see slow erosion of the cliff faces due to tidal action.
The top part of Mt Cook slid from the summit not long ago, again not caused by human intervention.
The recent eruptions on Mt Ruapehu where not caused by human activity yet changed the environment.
Ironically the Mt Ruapehu eruptions can be controlled by draining the crater lake but because we have environmental concerns we instead let nature do it much more violently.
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Quite right Gerrit, but who is claiming that the new channel, the delta, the summit of Aoraki and the Ruapehu eruptions are the result of man made climate change?
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Greenfly,
None that I know off. I was making the point that so much environmental change is being blamed on global warming/ climate change when it is not and that (as BJ pointed out) sensationalism to create a “saleable” news item has become almost the norm.
Typically south seas island sinking beneath the waves due to rising sea levels.
They are sinking because the earths crust at that point is retracting the mountain tops, which are the islands, back down to where they originally came from.
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Gerrit,
That would have been a far more appropriate example to use in the first place
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Gerrit – it’s as you’d expect but you’re a perceptive bloke. Media pap shouldn’t cloud your view of what is happening.
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bj – Rodney’s up to his ‘kneck’ (as Phil would say), in poop (as I expected you to say), but Hone ain’t (as I oughtn’t say)
* Sapient might say I oughtn’t use oughtn’t.
Language eh! It’s all talk.
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Gerrit – may I ask: Do you believe the actions of man are having an effect on the climate?
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bj – what are your thoughts about Hone’s email getting into the media? I’m taken-aback by the fact of it happening at all. There has been no discussion that I have seen over that aspect of the saga. Puzzly, puzzly.
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There’s nothing quite like the passionate defence or Rortin’ Rodney Hide, over on Fartblog – not saying you should bother to look, just saying there’s nothing quite like it.
ps. Have I killed the General thread? The only other poster I meet here… is me!
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So much for the free market.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/8347409.stm
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No Greenfly, the problem is that the postings here are sparse enough that they disappear from the “last 10 posts”, so nobody who doesn’t come back here notices them.
Hone sent the e-mail TO someone. That someone has a perfect right to call him on it and probably did. There are other ways for it to get out of course. Most people are quite unaware of just how public the e-mail is. If you want to have privacy in sending mail you provide your public key and your correspondent provides you theirs, and you encrypt. That’s not paranoia, that is reality and if you use g-mail you’d better use a damned big key, because No Such Agency has damned big computers and google stores everything in the US of A.
Not that that is a good idea in any case, as getting their attention by hiding stuff is just as bad as drawing their attention for any other reason.
respectfully
BJ
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Greenfly,
When theres the momentum even a small wisp of fuel can keep the conversation going. When it is lacking; good luck even with a full tank of gas.
While what Hone said was, for the most part, factually accurate, his way of portraying such is reminicent of many popular and now despised dictators. Most of which promoted genocide. That kind of language is dangerous. A pakeha could equally characterise Maori as bludgers, theves, druggies, wife beaters, and general criminals and be technically correct given national statistics. Woods probally has at some point. But it would not be accepted and would be considered grounds for removal from politics for life.
In all truth I have little problem, myself, with the statement as it was factually accurate save some minor points. My problem is the assumption that he can then go on to violate the rules because of it when he agreed to such rues when becoming a politician and those rules are crafted and approved of not just by Pakeha but by Maori also. Both as Maori, and as one of white skin, I do not approve. Nor do I approve of the very existance of the Maori party, and make no mistake it is really Maori not maori.
His comment mirrors turia’s years back that Maori had an excuse for criminality as that around them was stolen from them. I will not accept the existance of a race based party; it is fundimentally devisive and of great detriment to the country.
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bj..the actualities are far more prosaic..
the recipient released the email to the media..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Hmmm… yes bj, he did and I suppose though it was a personal email, nothing is private for an MP, but why did the recipient foward it to the media? Nipping off to Paris is poor form, but ho hum. That aside, why would anyone want to inflame the necks of New Zealanders by making a statement like that public? To what end?
Sapient – I doubt that he broke the rules because of his feelings of anger over white oppression, despite him saying that later. I think he took a jaunt for the same reason that you or I might. Prosaic reasons. Ordinary reasons that didn’t concern race or inequality or anything other than a bit of a dodge that adds spice to the occasion.
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also this thread is 115 comments..
and was posted on 4/11….
(is frog willfully lazy about posting a general comments headline every coupla days..?
one thing that farrar and i commented/agreed on at a bloggers drinks..
how the green party has so under-utilised the media asset at its’ fingertips..
namely frogblog..
and this from a party that moans about the mainstream media stopping them from getting their message out..?
yes..that m/p’s are posting..(five years on..!..is (finally!) a good thing..
but the forum is totally under-utilised..
and in the main..the mp’s dialogue is one-way..
they don’t feel the need to answer any questions..
(hague seems to be the sole exception..)
(big mistake that..!)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Greenfly,
You seem to be frogs’ alter ego. Since you have started commenting frog has very little input.
frog = greenfly??
Yes, there is absolutely no doubt that 6 billion people must have an effect.
Now is it global warming? maybe.
And is the climate changing for the worse? maybe.
Let me ask you a question.
Do you think Al Gore and the bankers and the corporates have the interest of the fellow man at heart in charging for carbon emmisions or are they after the holy dollar?
My take on it is that at the tail end of the email was the sentiment that the writer did not care if the email went public, so the recipient was free to do so.
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fly is not frog..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Greenfly,
I too doubt that his anger was the reason. But that he saw fit to justify his action to others through that means is what is important.
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phil – how’s you garden growing? Your spuds should be well up by now, peas climbing their sticks, beans one hand high , carrots fattening up and spinach fully grown – just imagining how it might be
If you’re not as progressed as that, better get busy! If I can help, advice-wise, I’m more than keen, just ask. Corn is good, not too late to put it in. Pumpkins can be started inside on your window-sill, then put out in a couple of weeks time. Tomatoes go well in your kneck 
of the woods, even out doors. Beetroot Phil, beetroot!! Sow lots and lots, in trays then transplant after 3 weeks into the garden. Mega vegetable, beetroot. Those and carrots (sow those directly into the garden, in rows, mix the seeds with radish seeds and you’ll be able to see where they went before they come up (radishes come up really quickly and mark where the carrots are). Happy eating (remember – real men have BIG gardens!)
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greenfly wrote:
“Sapient – I doubt that he broke the rules because of his feelings of anger over white oppression, despite him saying that later. I think he took a jaunt for the same reason that you or I might. Prosaic reasons. Ordinary reasons that didn’t concern race or inequality or anything other than a bit of a dodge that adds spice to the occasion.”
Someone in the media (I thinbk it was TV3 News) suggested that Hone had been intentionally trying to rark people up, possibly even intentionally trying to annoy his own party’s leadership. His behaviour certainly fits with that, but I’m not sure what his motive would be. Wouldn’t it be better to engineer a split on the basis of political principle? (I’m sure he has political principles that could be used to justify a split if that’s what he wanted)
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On a related subject. Vegetarians have long been know to be low on creatine; most of which is sourced from meat and none of which is availible from veges. Some is availible from milk and eggs and thus vegans are even worse off. Turns out that this creatine deficency has substantial effects on cognitive ability. Creatine deficency in development is associated with a wide range of cognitive diseases.
Enforcing or encouraging a vegetarian or vegan diet on your children; child abuse.
A diet can hardly be considered sustainable if it requires you to take human made suppliments just to retain ones cognitive ability.
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hmm, a post of mine went into moderation.
Is vegan a dirty word now? Perhaps child abuse?
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Poor Frog! Mistaken for a lowly greenfly!
You’re gonna have to raise your profile O Frog of Ours!
Gerrit – you’re a ‘maybe’ on man-made climate change? That’s encouraging!
Al Gore and the bankers and the corporates? We don’t differentiate between them?
Gore, I suspect, had true ‘interest in his fellow man’ – whether he still does I can’t know. The bankers et al? Throwing a little humour in there Gerrit? I laughed a little (wryly).
Hone’s email – yes, the recipient was free to do so, but why do you think he did so?
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Frog! We’re rounding on you! Hop to it!
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um..!..(blush..!..)..no..!
i wish you lived up here in the tropics..fly
up here in paradise..
up here in the paris of the north..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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kahikatea – it’s a jack-up then. Harawira wanted such a statement to enter the public domain where it would shriek, like a siren, to alert everyone to…
This rings more true than anything I’ve heard yet
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I’ll post you seeds Phil. What do you want?
Ya gotta do it! For the planet (and your son!)
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like the chicken crossing the road, because he could.
I really dont know but I hope that he thought that the remark was no a great help in race relations between Maori and the rest of New Zealand society.
As I said before, call someone a racist (or white *******) often enough and they will become one.
Suggest to someone to take a look at another aspect of race relations andd you may end up with a convert.
Like any sales pitch calling the prospective buyer a white ************ is not going to endear them to your cause.
But I doubt that is what that particular family is interested in.
I think that those comments have cemented racial division beween Maori and the rest of New Zealand society.
The rest of New Zealand society is moving on, Maori still trying to right past wrongs while steady moving into irrelevance.
One good thing that has come out of it all is that the postion of race concilliator (sp?) is redundant.
If that type of racial slur is an expression of speech freedom, so will anyone saying brown ******** be free to express themselves.
I actually think the MP has done his people huge harm by playing the bullyboy and tough guy Bro. His peoples’ status has dropped even lower IMHO for the rest of new Zealand society.
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Do you think Hone was ‘trying to endear (those who have been offended) to his cause’?
I don’t.
The rest of new Zealand society is moving on? Through having made good any injustices, or through ignorance of the issues?
The Race Relations Conciliator, redundant? Why? You don’t think he took a reasonable position? Isn’t that his job, his brief, what he was selected for, to take a reasonable position on matters such as these?
I’d have thought so.
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i’ll take full instruction..
puremedianz@hotmail.com.
i have dark/volcanic soil..
and a previous occupier was a serious gardener..
there is archealogical evidence of an irrigation system..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Sounds very Toltec. We’ll begin with corn and work toward cacao.
Will email.
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pure – that’s very good.
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esp. for an e-junkie/ex-con..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Actually was pretty sure that the recipient released it.
Was pointing out that EVERY thing you post is readable at several stages along its route to its ultimate destination and it may leave copies at any of them and in at least one common case it absolutely does.
Which means that you do not write anything in any e-mail about anything you seriously want to keep private. You do not sent people passwords. You do not sent people private account information. You do not explain any activity that the authorities might take an interest in… and you don’t use Outlook for anything at all ever.
“The issue isn’t whether you are paranoid, it is whether you are paranoid ENOUGH”
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Sapient, re creatine “The endogenic synthesis of creatine in the human liver is adequate for normal functioning of the human body. In other words, vegetarians do not suffer from creatine deficiency even though vegetables do not contain creatine” http://www.creatinejournal.com/creatine-supplement-what-is-creatine/
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Fin,
Notice the use of the word “adequate”.
The creatine synthesis of the liver provides approximatly fifty percent of the creatine of a meat eating individual and, while entirely sufficent for functioning, that study clearly shows that in vegetarians the creatine level is bellow the ideal level as the change in cognitive capacity found as a result of creatine supliments is strongly indicitive of an impoverished environment with relation to this chemical. If they were already at ideal levels no benefit would be noticed. Since a benefit is noticed they are thus at sub-ideal levels and thus suffeing from a deficency.
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Greenfly
Neither.
People just dont care anymore.
Hold a referendum and ask “Is the treaty of Waitangi relevant to your life” and the answer I would guess discussing this in South Auckland is No.
People are to busy to worry about a treaty that no longer has any relevance to them and past grievences that are totally unfixable.
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People just don’t care any more
But there are certainly people who do care still. Should their cares, especially those based on actual injustices, be dismissed because other people don’t care anymore?
Hmmmm…
People may be too busy, to ignorant and too divorced from the issues to care, but I don’t believe that’s enough to dump the core issue unresolved or those who have kept abreast of them.
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Greenfly,
The biggest reason that they dont care anymore is that there is no end in sight nor a clear picture of what and how to fix the greiveances.
Even the aggrieved have no clear picture, so how are the grandchildren of the aggressor supposed to “fix” the injustices?
The Maori issue will simply fade away over the next 50 odd years.
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Gerrit – no clear picture and no end in sight? For whom? ‘People’ – us great unwashed might not have a clear view, but the doesn’t mean there isn’t a solution. Much progress has been made and the issue is not unravellable at all. The ‘people’ lack a clear picture, perhaps as a result of nay-sayers wishing that to be the case, or perhaps through lack of constructive information. IMHO.
As to your final sentence … hasn’t happened yet and I’ve Maori friends with tremendous memories.
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Greenfly,
But do they have answers?
Do you have a clear picture of the end game that will make Maori happy? What is it and share it with us, the great unwashed.
Last time I asked frog said it was an ungoing “process”.
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A constitutional convention leading to a two house parliament with Maori signatories to the treaty and other tribes that may not have signed being given the opportunity to participate, forming the second “house”… superseding the Treaty. Arrangements around this/besides this I’d not imagine, but that is the PROPER way to deal with it, and the Maori have to have an EQUAL say in the outcome of the convention, no matter the numbers. They are equal partners in this country. THAT is an outcome defined by the treaty and ethically required in any change to it.
respectfully
BJ
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Not a fan of democracy then BJ?
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heh bjchip. You may be right, but it will never happen, not in a million years. I just can’t see the majority of people accepting it
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The Treaty protects the rights of the Tangata Whenua
All born New Zealanders are Tangata Whenua
Problem solved!
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BB
I like democracy just fine.
I also like being honest enough to KEEP my agreements with people.
All of them. Even the ones that are “inconvenient”.
Moot point in another 100 years when WE become the minority.
Don’t you think that maybe FIXING the problem would be a good idea… ?
respectfully
BJ
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is this true..?
http://whoar.co.nz/2009/after-the-honeymoon-divorce-greens-break-up-with-nationalfitzsimons-and-brownlee-cannot-work-together/
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Who’d have thought! Green’s and National’s conservation and energy policies incompatible! Bolt from the blue!
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Hardly surprising… I reckon the party in power to be comprised mainly of the criminally insane at this point.
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Good catch Phil
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Sapient, thanks for your info on creatine.
I’m not convinced that you have presented the data in an unbiased manner.
You say that if levels were optimum then there’d be no improvement from supplementation.
Using that logic, we should all be taking anabolic steroids.
The article you cite was not comparing vege’s/vegans to omni’s and yet you make this claim. The article (you cite) also states
“It has also been suggested that a “creatine cycle” exists between cells in the brain so that a combination of synthesis and transport routes would be required to maintain brain creatine levels (Möller & Hamprecht, 1989; Dringen et al., 1998). In vegetarians it is likely that the synthesis route is upregulated. Chronic ingestion of creatine has been shown to result in down-regulation of the vegetarians has been shown to produce similar increases in muscle performance to that seen in omnivores (Shomrat et al., 2000)”
This is despite lower levels in vege’s than omni’s to begin with!!
Also the study states “We would therefore expect to see a beneficial effect of creatine supplementation on brain performance in the vast majority of omnivores apart from those who consume very high amounts of meat (~2 kg day).”
Is this the diet you’re reccomending?
The article finishes by saying “Long term supplementation with creatine has yet to be declared truly safe, with reported effects on glucose homeostasis (Rooney et al., 2003) and other side effects (Terjung et al., 2000)” “These [beneficial] effects may …. be of use to those requiring boosted mental performance in the short term.”
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The use of any smart-drugs at all is significantly uncomfortable to the medical community. They don’t know what to make of something that is apparently useful for raising performance above one’s normal level. Much like things that might assist in living longer. These are frowned on too… although a significant amount of study has taken place. Usually TPTB try to knock it with studies that are not exactly relevant.
Gamma E-Tocopherol is tarred with the same brush as the synthetic alpha. Studies of other drugs effectiveness at preventing heart disease is evaluated only with respect to people who have already had heart attacks… etc. I don’t pay TPTB much attention any more. They have an interest in ensuring that I die on schedule and don’t foul up the actuarial tables too much. I don’t think that that is a really good idea for ME however, so I look for the research that is actually relevant.
Not that I can afford much supplementation, but I do keep tabs. I know some of this stuff works well when this old dog has to learn a new trick. So people who tell me “no” tend to be disbelieved. Personal experience and knowledge. I can’t pass it on, I can’t “prove” it. I can however, know.
respectfully
BJ
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Fin,
In an unbiased manner? Perhaps not as I had not intended it as an actual arguement but rather as a dig at phil since I had not done so in a long time.
There is an important difference between creatine and anabolic steroids. Creatine has almost no negative side effects, the one exception being that some suggest high levels may be of detriment to bone calcium; though notibly supplimenting calcium as well is ment to increase the effect over that of calcium alone with relation to bone strength. Anabolic steroids on the other hand have many many side effects which are detrimental to the body and their main effect vastly increases the energy use of the body, this being even more detrimental. Because of this the point at which the marginal benefit is at the marginal cost is much higher with creatine than with anabolic steroids; that point, where that point is at that time, being what is ultimately approached by evolution.
As with all chemicals which have effect in the brain, the brain plasticity will of course adapt. This however takes time. A childs ability to use creatine and transport creatine would take a substantial amount of time to develop to the levels needed for full functioning as a vegetarian or, worse, a vegan. Breast milk contains creatine, as does cows milk, so technically a vegetarian child should not be disadvantaged, only a vegan child once weaned as that would be imposing the need for that adaption, and the mental impairment on the child in their most formative years. Even assuming that they are given the ovo and lacto to counter this they will be impaired when they stop such; disadvantagous at any point in the first 20 to 30 years.
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