Nope – I live in Kapiti – have followed the water debate pretty closely and never heard of such a thing.

“Which means that they SHOULD be doing this using meters and charging according to what the council decides to charge. Not privatizing. The point I made was that there should be a CHARGE for the water. I also pointed out how the rate would be applied to the overage in consumption rather than to every drop. You ignored that and/or any variant of it.”

I didn’t ignore it – I just didn’t have time to write about it.

“however given the amount of rain we get here in Porirua I have to reckon that the only way to run short is to waste the stuff wholesale.”

The way to run short of water is not to store it. If you have an increasing population and a council that doesn’t build more storage for decades you will eventually run short – doesn’t matter how much rain you get.

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http://www.jotgreen.com/2009/10/saltworks-technologies-low-cost.html

Note that the question of what to do with the salt exists in EVERY desalination arrangement.

BJ

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Putting a price on everything is a sign of a failed society

You have to have a price on CO2

…and you have to have a price on clean water.

NOT putting a price on the commons is a guarantee of a failed society.

Nothing is for nothing. You can’t pick and choose.

Reticulated water is a natural monopoly and has no realistic substitute, so should not be subject to market forces.

Which means that they SHOULD be doing this using meters and charging according to what the council decides to charge. Not privatizing. The point I made was that there should be a CHARGE for the water. I also pointed out how the rate would be applied to the overage in consumption rather than to every drop. You ignored that and/or any variant of it.

Finally, I only read about (and on rare occasions get to taste) the water problems there. Maybe it isn’t so horrible (though it really tasted awful).. however given the amount of rain we get here in Porirua I have to reckon that the only way to run short is to waste the stuff wholesale.

respectfully
BJ

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If by “kapiti has a water problem” you mean the council hasn’t invested in infrastructure in 20 years or more, fair enough.

“The second is that it means that poor people will have to be careful and rich people still won’t care. This is true… it depends how you run the charges but this is in general ALWAYS true of ANY sort of service that is metered in any fashion whatsoever.”

So because poor people miss out on other resources, and bear the burden of coping when they are in short supply, they should bear the burden in case of water shortage? What sort of logic is that?

Reticulated water is a natural monopoly and has no realistic substitute, so should not be subject to market forces.

“…and the need to put a price on the commons remains.”

Putting a price on everything is a sign of a failed society – I don’t think we have reached that point yet.

‘Scuse brevity – gotta run!

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http://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=17&ved=0CB4QFjAG OAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gw.govt.nz%2Fassets%2Fcouncil-reports%2FRepor t_PDFs%2F2003_503_1_Report.pdf&ei=r0bqSt_NCoLmtgOS5cgI&usg=AFQjCNHiHGX va0UE7hWUcRXo227gO5pCIQ&sig2=71XlXnNDBtEXkBOg1ZcIqQ

http://wellington.scoop.co.nz/?p=1878

So- can we admit that Kapiti has a water “problem”???

Odd and Even Days watering restrictions??

++++++++++++++++++++

OK… that’s one issue.

The second is that it means that poor people will have to be careful and rich people still won’t care. This is true… it depends how you run the charges but this is in general ALWAYS true of ANY sort of service that is metered in any fashion whatsoever. Electricity, Gas… if it costs something per unit of use it is going to impact people depending on how much money they have as well as how much of whatever it is that they use.

If you want to make it a bit less onerous you can work out a per-occupant arrangement (which would be similar to the billing done now in terms of setting rates and provide a standard water credit), people only pay the overage, the standard charges remain part of the rates. That wouldn’t actually change anything except that the really frugal user wouldn’t be able to save anything.

What leak detection? The best the council can do is identify a bunch of houses that are using more water than usual. If it can do that much. No idea which house is at fault. The individual has no method whatsoever of knowing that water is running off. The meter gives you a localized indication of a problem as well as the incentive to fix it.

…and the need to put a price on the commons remains.

respectfully
BJ

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You mean poor people being attentive to their water use? There is no way water is going to be priced high enough to make the rich trim their consumption.

The Wellington City Council recently acknowledged that the cost of suppling reticulated water is too low for a realistic price to affect people’s consumption patterns – the charge will have to be well in excess of cost to make any difference.

Then the only cost is the one-time of installing the meters…

and maintenance, calibration, reading, billing and administering. Not to mention chasing defaulters.

“and council can’t identify the big users OR the leaks.”

What’s wrong with current leak detection methods?

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What ‘rationing’?

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It may still be required if water is priced reasonably and stably (as a council might do) and the seasonal supply varies markedly (as we know it does). The thing is that efficient use of water throughout the year, having people being attentive to their to use all the time rather than when the supply drops to where they have to supplement with bore water… that takes a more constant incentive.

I think the problem probably has to get worse in Kapiti before someone there takes the bull by the tail and faces the situation, but the point is still real. If there is no price on the commons, it will be misused.

As for making a buck, if they were smart they’d meter it and reduce the council rates accordingly. Then the only cost is the one-time of installing the meters and nobody “makes a buck” off them. The benefit is a long term ability to manage usage, which individuals simply do not now currently possess and council can’t identify the big users OR the leaks. Nobody can.

I’ve grown up with meters for water and spent 41 years living with knowing how much of the stuff I was using. Didn’t stop when I was in the Navy either. Fresh water on a ship is not “free”.

It wasn’t ever a big deal. Used properly it simply makes sense.

respectfully
BJ

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No it isn’t. We don’t run out of water. People respond to shortages by cutting down use, despite all the choruses of “people only conserve water if they are made to pay”. The whole “water is scarce” myth is a creation of those looking to make a buck out of it.

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One time cost. Gets the job done. National gets the blame. What’s not to like?

Because LibertyScott is absolutely correct about the choice. Rationing and shortages or paying more. This is irrespective of privatization. That choice is real and that is what they make, and they don’t want to choose to pay more or pay according to usage so the problem gets worse every dry summer.

It isn’t like the region has stopped growing. It isn’t like people are leaving it, hell *I* want to move there. Except I can SEE the “tragedy of the commons” going on in microcosm there.

So I have to do something with a private well and water tank and purifying or desalinating my own.

I know how, but I would rather have a meter and a council that does it right… and a water tank besides because the price needs to be high enough to encourage conservation at that level. Since I can’t have a council that does it right I have to accept privatization as a possible solution.

The thing is that without metering nobody is going to fix that dripping faucet with any urgency. People DO NOT do the right thing when the commons has no price and they DO NOT want to put a price on the commons when it has always been “free”.

They might (gasp) have to change their behavior!!!

We’ve got a lot of experience with that. Don’t we?

respectfully
BJ

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Water is perpetually a problem in Kapiti, without metering and without capital to invest in expanding supply. If Kapiti rejects private capital and metering, then the residents can put up with rationing and shortages. If Kapiti chooses private capital and metering, then people may pay more, but I suspect that it would be commercial users and large families that pay more, elderly residents would pay less. Nevertheless, it may be an effective way to limit sprawl and growth there, because if water is expensive (but good quality) it would say to prospective residents to make a choice of the coastal lifestyle, but pay the price of the scarce resource that has been a persistent problem. Of course privatisation isn’t necessary for that, but it could raise capital to expand and upgrade the capacity and spread that over time with the users paying by usage. I suspect Kapiti residents need to make the stark choice, rationing and shortages, or pay more.

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“If the government forced water privatization the meters would get installed. Maybe the smart thing is to let them go ahead and then take it back into as a council responsibility when the government changes back to sane.”

Nooooo! taxpayers would have to pay out massive compensation to the water companies for breach of contract if that happened.

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The commons in this case is their water supply.

They are used to having it for free.

However, this leads to completely irresponsible decisions relating to water USE.

A portion of the council rates is determined by the cost of supplying water and this portion should be reduced if metering is introduced.

Was that proposed or considered? I don’t know but I would be unsurprised if it had been neglected as an issue and the meters addressed as a way to supplement the council budget.

Still, I can imagine the knee-jerk opposition.

Which means that councils aren’t ever going to be able to handle this without first educating a lot of people. Can that be done? Fast enough?

If the government forced water privatization the meters would get installed. Maybe the smart thing is to let them go ahead and then take it back into as a council responsibility when the government changes back to sane.

If they are going to be goons, let them do it, take the hammering that results and then pull it back into the public domain… with the meters installed,

Just thinking outside the box here.

respectfully
BJ

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Water metering was the biggest issue in the last Kapiti local election, and voters overwhelmingly voted for anti-metering/anti-privatisation candidates, then had to battle to keep water meters off the council’s agenda as councillors “changed their minds” or split hairs over what they had committed to pre-election. Didn’t help having unelected council bureaucrats trying to sneak through water meters at every opportunity.

By all means give residents a choice as to how water is supplied, but leaving it to councils is a recipe for cluelessness.

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My point was that should this not be up to councils to decide this? Standing back from ideology, could it not be that one model does not fit all?

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Bill made out that the only significant change was the timeframe, but under the current law it is not possible for private sector interests to buy, own, and operate water infrastructure in the way that the proposals contemplate, so this is a more significant change.

Also, the Greens opposed even the partial privatisation for 15 years that Bill English referred to; Jeanette especially. As chair of the relevant Select Committee at the time, her main contribution was to fight for the constraints that require councils to retain management that are now being removed.

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