It’s sick alright Drakula, but it’s no joke.

What are we gonna do about it then?

Are letters to the editor enough to stop Solid National in their tracks?

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So with more urea in the ground the cows will be farting volumes more nitrous oxide. Is that right?

By the way isn’t nitrous oxide commonly known as laughing gas?

Nah it’s a sick joke lets leave the lignite alone.

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RE: alternatives to emissions trading and Climate Camp:
Yea definately – thats what will be discussed at Climate Camp of course…

Sorry if I haven’t been clear, but I mean specifically alternatives ways to put a price on carbon. It is essential that business is clearly able to identify lowering carbon emissions as being vital to the way they do business. Does this mean you support a carbon tax, or has another way been identified?

And to the question of alternatives to Emissions Trading…

[taken from the climate camp aotearoa website]
“This is a bit of a false question: it presumes that carbon trading has some sort of merit that justifies it being included in the selection of possible options available. Its like asking, what’s the alternative to implementing an ineffective, unjust system to deal with climate change that rewards the biggest polluters and that has very harmful consequences for communities in the Global South?

A strict system of trading under a cap, and even better a sinking cap, would have benefits, even while it still has drawbacks. It would provide a real incentive to business to lower emissions, and has the advantage over a carbon tax that money for green development would be supplied to the South. Also note that a carbon tax can be much more easily manipulated by governments than a trading system can. They can just set the price as they wish at will.

The most obvious and rational alternative is to simply not do it.

Which can’t of course be the end of the story, as an effective replacement means to put a price on carbon is still needed.

There are a wide variety of ways to reduce emissions that are appropriate for different individuals, communities, companies and countries. Any of many ways forward should be evaluated (along with important factors like equity and social justice) on the criteria of whether or not it allows us to move away from extracting and consuming large amounts of fossil fuels.

The Greens have advocated strongly for other complementary measures as well – no arguments from us there. A price on carbon alone is not enough.

Carbon trading does exactly the opposite of this.”

I think that’s true for what is being set up in much of the world, certainly true in NZ under the new proposal, which is why we oppose it.

Hope you can make it to Climate Camp where we can actually start to take a good honest look at where things are at – and where WE can take them

I won’t be able to make it. As I said, I do hope the camp is successful. To me, an honest look has to include coming up with practical solutions that you have a hope of implementing, including pricing carbon. Otherwise, nothing will get done for years, which the world cannot afford. Good luck to you and I still hope to hear back.

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RE: alternatives to emissions trading and Climate Camp:
Yea definately – thats what will be discussed at Climate Camp of course…

And to the question of alternatives to Emissions Trading…

[taken from the climate camp aotearoa website]
“This is a bit of a false question: it presumes that carbon trading has some sort of merit that justifies it being included in the selection of possible options available. Its like asking, what’s the alternative to implementing an ineffective, unjust system to deal with climate change that rewards the biggest polluters and that has very harmful consequences for communities in the Global South? The most obvious and rational alternative is to simply not do it. There are a wide variety of ways to reduce emissions that are appropriate for different individuals, communities, companies and countries. Any of many ways forward should be evaluated (along with important factors like equity and social justice) on the criteria of whether or not it allows us to move away from extracting and consuming large amounts of fossil fuels. Carbon trading does exactly the opposite of this.”

and heres a good PDF chapter of Larry Lohmann’s book; Carbon Trading
Chapter: ‘Ways Forward’
http://www.thecornerhouse.org.uk/summary.shtml?x=544238

Hope you can make it to Climate Camp where we can actually start to take a good honest look at where things are at – and where WE can take them

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“ETS is sure to spur growth”

Let’s be charitable and assume Jeanette is high on goofballs, but can anyone imagine what on earth she might be thinking with such blatant nonsense?

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I’m not really clear on the concept of shutting off comment on the things that aren’t directly in one’s portfolio though. It almost makes sense to put people into the areas that are NOT their particular passion, as they are prone to overemphasize the ones that are???

BJ

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The camp sounds great. I hope it is very successful.

I’ve asked several times recently:

While we all share your concerns, I would like to know what we can do as an effective alternative, given that the world seems unable to accept even a strong trading system where real reductions might be made while still allowing for the market ticket clipping that would occur.

Not that I’m unhappy with people taking direct protest action and it will no doubt help, but I do wonder if this question will be addressed specifically by the group. Perhaps you could post the answers here after the camp.

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Well we do consider it a virtue to call things as we see them. Might explain the crap polling.

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Emissions Trading is a dangerous distraction from what where we need to be going with Climate Change. Rather than leaving it to the market – we need to leave carbon in the ground!
Come to Climate Camp in December and let the polluters and profiteers of Climate Change and their false solutions to it know how you feel about their selling our childrens future on the Carbon Market.

Our Climate is not their Business!!!
http://www.climatecamp.org.nz

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hence the crap polling.
But, Valis, politics is the art of delusion! Or am I too cynical?

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Maybe because while it is a Green Party they have different people speak on different issues.

When they had only a few MP’s (within the Alliance – its other MP’s would speak on other issues) they would focus on the environment. Now they are a stand alone party, and also have more MP’s, they speak on more issues and are allocated areas to focus on. Obviously the MP around the longest has continued to speak on evironment issues on behalf of the party.

Naturally the Green Party has reflected its Alliance origins in the emphasis of its non environment policy, given the make-up of the core party (from Values to Alliance).

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No, I was just addressing your implication that Jeanette favours the environment above other issues, which is simply wrong. If you experience her persona that way fine, but don’t delude youeself into thinking its true.

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If they’re going to strip mine Southland, lets start with Dipton.

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hence the crap polling?
If you think other Green spokespeople are received like J then you are completely deluded.
I haven’t met/got to know any of them so I’m not talking about the person, I’m talking about the persona.
I suspect Green insiders never step back from to person to observe the persona.
Try it sometime.

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But most Greens are like Jeanette in that, like her, they support the majority of Green policy because they understand how it links together. What I wish is that other green oriented people could see this too.

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The proposed lignite project is horrific. Yet another dairycentric, profit-driven, short-sighted initiative which the taxpayers and the environment will pay for.

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Ahh Jeanette, why aren’t nearly all the Greenz like you.
Green.
It’s always so refreshing when you post, it’s like you care about the environment above other issues. What a radical concept!

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Greenfly – Try the reserved words. The German is particularly soul-satisfying. I think Dutch works well too.

This policy has been revised to the extent that it now fills a much needed void.

Or it simply needs to be voided.

We’re toast.

BJ

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Jeanette is entirely correct here. The lignite proposals for Mataura in Southland are … I’m left wordless!
Shunda’s right here, regarding urea. For Feds and Solid to be using urea production as a rationale for the proposed ‘industrial complex’ is beyond arrogant, it’s criminal! Southland’s not a region known for it’s volcanic activity, but there’re rumblings, deep down and ominous.

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Yeah this is not good. I have seen how some farmers use these magic little granules and it’s a shocker. Half of the stuff washes off in the first shower of rain and down into streams anyway.
I can’t really see how the use of urea on a massive scale is sustainable, and from what I understand it acidifies the soil? which requires more lime, which mines more carbon from the soil.
My dislike for intensive dairying continues to grow.

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