by frog
Published in THE GAME by frog on Fri, August 28th, 2009
Tags: general debate
General Debate, August 28, 2009
Published: August 28, 2009
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Please use 
on the trolls and those who are unable to keep on topic
This is how MMP works. 1. Parties campaign under false pretences.
2. Having got their votes they then horse trade amongst each other the lobbiests and party cadres dominate. 3. small paties act as penny wieghts.
Appendix. More people voted “No” than voted for MMP (which clearly shows that they must have preferred FPP under the Bradford doctrine).
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Please go to http://www.greens.org.nz/polls/frogblog-comment-style to vote for your preferred comment style on this blog
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This is how FPP works
1. Parties campaign under false pretenses. During the campaign, media only pays attention to the two big parties, because there is no point voting for anyone else.
2. Having got their votes they then proceed to do whatever the hell they like.
3. Small parties don’t get a voice at all.
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This guy posts great photos of creatures (well, links to his photos), insects especially, on Kiwiblog every Friday morning. I’d like to invite him to post here as well. Any objections? (He’s not a ‘green’ but his photography is excellent).
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/08/general_debate_28_august_2009.html#comment-601376
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For example:
http://chthoniid.zenfolio.com/img/v1/p956213934-4.jpg
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He’s not a ‘green’
“Zoologist, conservationist and photographer”
Not a Green, but green.
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an ‘interesting’ read..
http://whoar.co.nz/2009/thoreau-walden-and-civil-disobedience-in-the-age-of-climate-change/
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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I think under FPP politicians were more aware of their voters.
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Under FPP the pollies are entirely aware of the need to get a majority, which means telling the most popular sort of lies. The usual “you can have something for nothing if you just vote for me” lies. Then they make good on it by taxing your kids (borrowing from the future).
Overall the MMP allows SOME contrary voices to get a bit of air time. It isn’t yet enough to overcome the funding and mass media advantages of the majors… the 5% hurtle is too high.
Still, if it had not been for that hurtle we might STILL be looking at the grinning face of Winston First…..
… there is no “right way”. There are simply compromises and balances and on balance we have a decent system.
BJ
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Why? How?
In a two-party system (which is what FPP automatically creates), there is less need to pay attention to voters, because they only have the option of voting for you or the other guy. For example National could ignore the more right-wing of their constituency because where else are they going to go? Under MMP those guys have the option of voting ACT without throwing their vote away (as long as Rodney clings to Epsom, dammit).
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phil please stop spamming this blog with links to yours. If you’re going to link to it, at least give us something more than “hey this is interesting”
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Perhaps this is the way the Business Round Table sees us… ?
http://tinyurl.com/kubrns
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His links are often worth following… even if his style is hard to follow I don’t think he is hurting – just my opinion but… he does contribute.
respectfully
BJ
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And preferably embed the url in the comment, rather have it appear in full. The latter makes blog comments threads look ugly. Same goes for a few other regulars!
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“..phil u says:
August 28, 2009 at 11:34 am
an ‘interesting’ read..
http://whoar.co.nz/2009/thoreau-walden-and-civil-disobedience-in-the-a ge-of-climate-change/
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Reply
*
rimu says:
August 28, 2009 at 2:09 pm
phil please stop spamming this blog with links to yours. If you’re going to link to it, at least give us something more than “hey this is interesting”..
gee rimu..!
i thought the headline said all that needed to be said..as a ‘teaser’..
(still bummed that i ‘outed’ you as the author/driver of this new (lame) commenting system..?..eh..?)
btw..aside from that ‘lame’ commenting system..
..have you ever contributed anything of even the slightest interest ..
..to this forum..?
(leans forward expectantly..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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My but aren’t we all opinionated today!
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Drat, that was supposed to be in the url thread
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Be careful Phil. Rimu is omniscient and omnipotent. Best not insult him, he may find the need to retaliate.
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Outed? Talk about lame. And speaking of lame, the new system is winning the vote at present, so why play the blame game?
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“..Be careful Phil. Rimu is omniscient and omnipotent..?
certainly likes to give that impression..
i repeat..why are you hiding behind a pseudonym..?..l’il rimu..?
..are you so ‘important’ .. you must..?
sealed-lips..and all that..?
yeah..toad..’Im terrified..
so far..all i’ve seen is mindless/blind authoritarianism..
(‘everyone bow to the ‘new system’..)
..coupled with intellectual-dwarfism..
(are you the greens ‘new great hope.?..darling..?..
have you promised much..?)
(leans forward expectantly..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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yeah valis..last time i looked..13 had voted..
(there’s a mandate for yr..eh..?
anyway..this vote/’faux-consultation’..is just that..
rimu ain’t for ‘turning’..eh..?
aarrgghh..!!
just what the green party needs..!
another mindless bureaucrat..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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http://www.greens.org.nz/polls/frogblog-comment-style
Interesting results so far, I wonder what would happen if the votes were weighted toward post-count or contribution to debate? Im sure we would get very different results.
Almost makes me wonder if rimu has set it as a ‘Green’ voting system where-by every vote for old give an extra vote for new as well as old and every vote for new gives two to new. lol.
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did they make sure you are a carnivore..?..there rimu..?
before hiring you..?
and yr new system is clumsy/ugly..
as are many..
a big fan of clipboards there..?..rimu..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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I agree. He should have just ignored you.
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phil, take your personal attacks to Kiwiblog where they belong if you want to avoid having such posts deleted.
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how about looking at cause and effect..?..frog..?
..i am not doing this in a vaccuum..
..did you not see yr new companions complaint that a headline with thoreau/walden/civil disobedience’ in the title..
..was not ‘clear’ enough..?..
(i mean..w.t.f..!..is it as i assume..and this rimu knows nought of those words..?
..how else to to explain the moan/complaint..?..)
..yr new compatriot has had more that a few snipes at me..
..each with as much reason as that one..
do they count as ‘personal attacks’..?
or did i just ‘pick’ this person..?..at random..?
(nah..!..it comes under the inability-to-suffer-fools category/response..eh..?..)
(and..alleging over-use/reliance-on.. a ‘clipboard’..is a deletable-offence..eh..?
can you allege pen-holders-in-top-pockets..?
..strange haircuts..?
..or other allegations/evidence of geek/nerd-dom..?
(did rimu come and tell you i was ‘bullying’ them..?..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Phil should have held out in the green party he would have been an MP by now.
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I would make the point that even if all of our transport infrastructure was converted to electric and the rates of private transport use were to remain the same rather than decline then it does not neccassarily follow that such would be unsustainable. The electricity could be provided through renewable means and the storage devices could be made of readily recyclable and plentiful materials. The second is well on its way and the first is just a matter of economci incentive. Even if we were to exceed the global potential for renewable enery we would still be able to go with the solar satilite option.
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That was in the wrong thread…
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Those comments do not meet my edit threshold, no. I’m applying the same standard as I do for d4j. It is pretty liberal. I didn’t say you have to avoid arguing, but once you leave the ball completely behind and go for the man, I will act, regardless of who does it.
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I think its an interesting and valid commentary on the types so proliferate within the Green party whom seek to impose their will on others and obtain the supposed moral high ground whilst enjoying only very minor support and misrepresenting the views of others. Especially where they disreguard the views of those whom count and disagree with them in favour of those of little relivance whom agree with them.
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this one is also kinda ‘interesting..
http://whoar.co.nz/2009/the-widening-gap-in-americas-two-tiered-society/
(explanation for rimu:
it is a story about the widening gap in americas’ two-tiered society..
..eh..?
got that..?
(so..if that ‘interests’ you..you can click on it..
..if not..not..eh..?)
(if you have further questions/need more explanation..?
..just ask..
…eh..?..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Maybe we could have a poll on whether auto-moderation should be applied to your comments Phil.
It may get a higher response.
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Sorry, Valis. I probably should have ignored him too.
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Hmmm. You mean confuse everyone – a bit like the referendumb – Sapient?
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Phil
From your link…
During the same period, average CEO pay, at $10.54 million, was 344% higher than typical worker pay.
This has to be an error. 10.54 million is more like 266 TIMES the typical worker’s pay.
Which is to say, 26600% or put another way, the typical worker makes 0.3% of what the CEO makes.
I’d have to look at their sources but the typical worker has to be between 30k and 45k no matter what source they use. You can do the math.
Just saying, it is worse than you’d think if you trusted the author’s math.
respectfully
BJ
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Well, though it would be sensible to keep to the shadows and walk without stepping on any twigs .. I think Phil is being treated unfairly, despite his reactiveness. It would, imho, be far better to skim across any hypersensitive responses and enjoy his humour and insight. Digging in when <i. he digs in is messy and unseemly. He’s correct in what he says, mostly, and though his responses are hair-triggered, he’s a valuable guy, handled correctly. I’ve always marvelled at the way he is mis-interpreted.
I
M
H
O
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“.. toad says:
August 28, 2009 at 5:33 pm
Maybe we could have a poll on whether auto-moderation should be applied to your comments Phil…”
a good old-fashioned green party witch-hunt..?
(you know who to ask..?..to ‘help’ you..?..eh..?..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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I vote no auto-moderation for Phil!
(What exactly is auto-moderation?)
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Nitrous oxide looks to be no laughing matter!
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“..(What exactly is auto-moderation?)..”
censorship..
as in..’shut that loud vegan up!’..
toad is keen as..
(no surprises there..tho’..)
phil(whoar.co.nz
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I don’t support that either and I agree phil has plenty to offer. I just think the July phil, where he left the personal stuff out, is far more effective than the August phil.
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Aren’t vegans supposed to be peaced-out by their meat-free diet?
Not sneaking biltong on the side are you Phil?
(I’m guessing ‘not’, but there is an adrenal side to your nature, for sure!)
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bj said:..
“..During the same period, average CEO pay, at $10.54 million, was 344% higher than typical worker pay.
This has to be an error. 10.54 million is more like 266 TIMES the typical worker’s pay..”
yep..!..as pointed out in the comments thread..he obviously meant ’344 times..’
..not ’344%’..
and in his defence..he does have footnotes/links to his data-sources..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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“..Aren’t vegans supposed to be peaced-out by their meat-free diet?..”
i am ‘peaced-out’ most of the time..
..and i laugh easily/at much..
(you can tell a persons’ nature/personality by their dogs..
and mine are happy-gals/chappy…)
..but then there are those facts/attitudes/indifferences that make my blood boil..
..bring my ‘adrenal side’ to the fore..
..’cos i see them as willfull ignorance..
..and in supposedly intelligent people..
..there really is no excuse for those willfull ignorances..to continue..
and yes..i will argue politics at the drop of a cigarette paper..
and as for the animals..?
..well..they can’t speak..
..someone has to speak up for them..
..to try to trigger the required/needed conciousness-raising.
that’s what i do/am doing..
http://whoar.co.nz/?s=vegan
(btw..july-phil/aug-phil had a meeting..
and agreed on an ongoing self-defence policy..
..albeit a vigorous one..)
(tho’..pollies are still fair game..24/7…that’s a given..)
with once again..a ‘vigorous’ policy in place..)
btw..has anyone heard how the sows are..?..
now that everyone is concerned about them..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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funny local tv show alert..!
it s called 7 days..
..and is on 3 at 10..
last week was the first one..
and it was funny..
http://whoar.co.nz/2009/a-newfunny-local-comedy-showits-called-7-days/
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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july-phil/aug-phil had a meeting..
(I’d have liked to have been a fly on the wall at that meeting!)
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Its 12-6 at present, which isn’t a huge sample, but probably includes a good percentage of recent active posters. You can’t make people vote and I figure those that don’t are happy either way. As one who voted for the old style, I’m happy if the new style stays if it continues to be 2-1 in favour of threads.
http://www.greens.org.nz/polls/frogblog-comment-style
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it was ugly..!
they had to smoke a joint together..
to calm it all down..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Front page – Outrage at Govt mining proposal
Conservation Minister Tim Groser called for an end to the “emotional hysteria” …”If you can extract wealth from that land, that’s what we should do”
Mr Groser, who is also Trade Minister, said everyone should just “calm down”.
CALM DOWN EVERYONE !!!
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This is one-step. It sequesters CO2, but doesn’t provide synthesized fuel.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/may/31/carbonemissions.climatechange
Which may be enough for the near term, but needs to be considered more closely in the long term.
respectfully
BJ
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this is kinda ‘interesting’..
http://whoar.co.nz/2009/moby-confronts-al-gore-about-eating-meat-and-being-green/
(fror rimu:..this is about moby..(a vegan musician)..confronting al gore..(an american politician/producer of a ‘green movie’..
..that never mentioned the pollution caused by farming/eating animals..
the other part of the question is one i sometimes voice..
namely the walking contradiction..
..of being a carnivorous ‘green’..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Now who were the naive fools whom almost entirly eliminated youth rates and constantly seek to raise the minimum wage? Hmmm?
http://www.interest.co.nz/ratesblog/index.php/2009/08/28/opinion-how-nzs-minimum-wage-increase-has-added-to-unemployment-woes/
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One of the best Q&A’s. If you didn’t watch (aren’t watching) you’ve missed a great show. Winston Peters is up next. Matt McCarten flattened Rodney Hide and his denials.
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Winston’s masterful interview! How we laughed!
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Here is an article which attributes the 13 year drought in SE Australia to climate change. It may be of interest to some:
http://www.theage.com.au/national/its-not-drought-its-climate-change-say-scientists-20090829-f3cd.html
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The ‘drought’ in Victoria dates back to 1993 – like 16 years already!
The summer temperatures were a big part in my decision to return home – once temperatures get into the high 40′s it becomes extremely uncomfortable, dangerous for those not in perfect health.
We may see Australian GW refugees out here ‘fore too long.
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http://whoar.co.nz/2009/smoking-marijuana-does-not-cause-lung-cancer/
but wait..!..there’s more..!
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Yes, but where do we post comments about the format?
I don’t like the new format because I can’t see the latest posts easily – they might be anywhere in the threads. However it is better for separating different trains of discussions – like this one. Can we have both – with a button that would allow the reader to flip between one format and the other?
I’d also like to see a page showing the latest postings to different threads, but only one post per thread, so it is easier to see where new posts have been added to topics I am interested in without these new posts being pushed off the page by a barrage of posts on a single topic that I am not interested in.
Trevor.
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Blast – caught by that preview bug!
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http://whoar.co.nz/2009/a-mouthful-of-flesh/
“..But for the sake of some little mouthful of flesh we deprive a soul of the sun and light..
..and of that proportion of life and time she had been born into the world to enjoy.”
- Plutarch..”
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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I’m not so sure we are seeing the ame old self interest except that smaller parties are in the mix but there is the penny weight factor
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Full details of the proposed cutbacks to Auckland’s rail electrification project here: http://transportblog.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/electrification-report.pdf
Comment here: http://transportblog.co.nz/2009/08/30/details-of-electrification-cutback-revealed/
It looks like we’re ending up with a whole pile fewer trains, for the want of $140 million.
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It’s not the dollars that count – it’s whether they generate a positive return on investment.
IF they don’t such spending destroys wealth – in this case our precious savings.
Investing in rail in Auckland is about the worst investment we can make. And the cost benefit gets worse by the day as other transport technology gets more and more efficient.
These figures are for Kiwirail but freight rail is more efficient than commuter rail.
“Over the past ten ears, fuel costs have accounted for only between 12% and 18% of road transport operating costs and rail’s fuel costs have NEVER been more than 3% less than road’s. This cost advantage has narrowed as fuel prices have increased suggesting that road transport is more responsive to fuel price signals than rail.”
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If the fuel cost is electrical power generated from geothermal plants, the equation changes. The point to putting rail in Auckland is that it electrifies a portion of the transport system without everyone buying an electric car.
It also puts the onus of renewability the providers of electricity.
Whether that is done properly is another question, but it is quite certainly NOT about “costs” at prices we are seeing today. It is about being prepared for what we WILL be seeing tomorrow.
BJ
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“Whether that is done properly is another question, but it is quite certainly NOT about “costs” at prices we are seeing today. It is about being prepared for what we WILL be seeing tomorrow.”
true, but when you are talking about costs, you need to take into account costs other than energy. For example, the cost of the vehicles – trains last longer than buses, and electric vehicles last longer than diesel vehicles, so the set-up cost is amortised over a longer period.
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PhilU challenges Farrar over the lies he (Farrar) tells – and wins! Nice piece of ‘surgical mining’ there Phil!
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/09/a_calm_rational_analogy_from_the_greens.html#comment-602799
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Quote of The Day
Rev. Jim Rigby: “when we talk about helping the poor, we’re called Christians. When we actually help the poor, we’re called Socialists.”
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