Skittish plates bj?

It gets more and more exciting!

‘Quakes and vulcanism’

Elements melt with a fervent heat

my colleagues wail,

End Times they are a’ comin’!

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Looks real to me. No reason it shouldn’t work.

I can see using something like it in the North… Auckland is a horrible problem in terms of renewable resources… most of NZ’s renewables are South-Island and there is very little close to the city.

I would only accept it if there were a subsidiary in Oz though, and refueling needing to be done every 5 years is a bit “frequent” for my taste. . . I’d prefer a Thorium power cycle with an accelerator to drive it. The waste from thorium reactions is easier to deal with. I understand the anti-nuclear stance of the party, but I don’t agree with it as much as some. The alternatives exist.

I prefer CATS though, because SSPS is also enabled by that… as is a human diaspora into the whole of the solar system and likely beyond it.

I have no small ambitions for the species… surviving longer than the sun itself would be among the bigger ones.

respectfully
BJ

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What about this as a power source?

Capital cost of USD5m for each of 20,000 households = USD250
Power cost of USD0.10 cents/unit
http://www.hyperionpowergeneration.com/
Apparently there is a six year waiting list

At first I thought it must be a scam buy energy experts tell me it is for real.

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That’s correct Kahikatea, the potential on the west coast is large. The implementation (as I observed earlier) is zip-point-squat.

Feeding more to the east keeps the lakes full and allows more export to the rest of the country.

… and without people around, the noise from wind turbines is not such a concern.

For wind turbines bigger is quieter.

respectfully
BJ

BJ

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bjchip Says:
August 10th, 2009 at 8:40 am

> Moving power from the west coast of the South Island to the east coast is important. The west coast has the energy, the east has the industry and agriculture.

I presume you’re referring to some energy source that hasn’t been harnessed yet – currently the South Island east of the main divide exports electricity to the rest of the country, or more specifically, the southern half of the South Island east of the main divide exports electricity to the rest of the country. The only significant electricity generation in the West is Manapouri, and even that is easier to get to from the east than from the rest of the west.

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On TV the other night people were complaining about the noise from wind turbines in their little patch of paradise.

I often look at renewable energy sites and there aren’t any wow factor things on the boil (as far as I can see). The wow factor things are so near and yet so far.

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/5966969/A-sustainable-future-for-coal.html

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Greenfly, you are correct. The transmission costs for undersea cabling would be prohibitive.

We probably ought to consider how we are going to get power to our new North-North-Island once this climaticide has run its course. Easier to build while the ocean hasn’t yet engulfed the land.

What makes me not a little nervous, is that the relaxation of the earth’s crust based on the removal of gigatons of mass from the WAIS may well render the plates more mobile than they have been in millions of years.

Quakes and vulcanism could increase too, and we are not in a “quiet” zone.

BJ

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Trevor

I would consider a turbine which uses local renewables in its manufacture.

There are limitations. Wood blades are feasible and have been manufactured of laminated wood, and wooden towers can also serve. That’s why I wanted the design specs. Placed in an advantageous position such turbines would be smaller and less efficient than the big turbines, but still effective, and easier for locals to maintain in the long run.

Which is pretty much what you were on about. Wind is useful. Not the whole answer but will provide a piece of the answer.

Same can be said of the wood industry and the biomass concept that Emerald is describing. We aren’t doing these things because the dead-dino-based industry isn’t paying for what it is actually doing to us.

That is, on the face of it, theft.

I do not favor being at the mercy of a supply chain to the other side of the planet if something breaks. Something WILL break, we can be quite certain. The Windpower units are good, but if you want to use wood you have to be respectful of its limitations, but wood is 2x as strong in tension as in compression. How tall can we build a tower that will serve to mount the turbine? If we use something else (steel is good) how long before it rusts? Where does it COME from and where do we get spares.

I can see a role for the mid-size turbines where the grid is weak. and it will be weak in many places for a long time, even if we get major improvements. A better grid is imperative.

I am thinking that something a community can build without buying a lot of components from overseas would be “a very good thing”.

Moving power from the west coast of the South Island to the east coast is important. The west coast has the energy, the east has the industry and agriculture. Shifting industry to the west is a problem simply because the amount of energy nature expends on it, makes it a harsh place to live.

respectfully
BJ

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Wind turbines on the Auckland Islands!

Won’t somebody please think of the albatross?

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I don’t think small wind turbines are the answer. The trend is to larger turbines for various reasons. A larger turbine has a taller tower and longer blades so it harnesses wind from further up. Wind speeds increase with height, and the power available increases with the cube of the wind speed, so this gives a significant improvement in power output. In addition, there is a significant fixed cost per turbine, so larger turbines are more cost-effective as the fixed cost is averaged over a larger output.

I don’t think putting wind turbines on the Auckland Islands is going to work either – the cost and reliability of the undersea power cables is just too much.

Wind power is never going to be the complete answer for New Zealand, but it can and will make a significant contribution.

Trevor.

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Spending money to keep water in reservoirs IN CASE you need it is very wasteful.

No… this is actually very very important, and I think you are blocking on it.

Energy STORAGE takes many different forms. Biomass stores solar energy using organic chemistry. A battery uses inorganic chemistry (for the most part). A hydro dam uses gravity and physics.

There is no difference between them except it is hard to put a hydro dam in the back of a car.

Anything that keeps us from using up stored energy and preserves it for later consumption is (within the limits of the storage medium) valuable, not wasteful. As long as the hydro dam is not filled to overflowing, the use of wind coupled with the dam is going to provide value.

This is more clear if the wind is used in concert with an existing diesel generator. The fuel is not burned if the wind is blowing. You save the cost of the additional fuel. You have that energy available to use later.

It is not the same as “additional” capacity. It is however, not inefficient.

Nor do the damned things have to be bought from Vesta. Windflow is perfectly capable of making turbines here. However, bigger turbines are quieter.

I was looking for design specs on the 100-250 KW units you referred to earlier, wood-structure you said…. those I do not see.

+++++++++++++++

Summer in the North could WELL be the higher demand in the future.

I agree, and I don’t think you’re wrong about wind in the north of the country. I don’t regard wind as a viable answer for the North. Geothermal, tidal and solar make some sense, but wind up there is simply going to be not enough or way too much. The transmission costs to get power all the way up there is going to be costly as well. Moreover, there needs to be something up there that can withstand a typhoon and keep on generating.

People who get locked into one single solution will only provide optimal treatment for one flavor of the problem set. Auckland city and its environs provide a particularly difficult setting for a high demand region, particularly in summer. A tidal generation scheme there would help, but I am not optimistic about the volume flow involved. Geothermal potential would appear to be there as well, but that is going to take a fair whack of development. Wind is not going to figure as a large contributor. A thermal plant burning charcoal or pelletized wood might serve. There are other answers…

… but it is not reasonable to seek them by removing one from consideration before the analysis begins.

respectfully
BJ

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Emerald

Don’t dismiss VFR batteries that quickly! They are already being used for exactly this purpose on King Island (Tasmania)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanadium_redox_battery

I wasn’t suggesting VRF batteries for storage on the main NZ grid. Instead I was suggesting it for Stewart Island, and they would also be useful for other isolate (i.e. not grid connected) areas such as the Chatham Islands. And so what if they would double the price – the diesel generators currently used on these islands cost twice as much to run as the generation on the main grid anyway, and we can expect the price of diesel oil to rise further.

VRF batteries can be built with various combinations of power rating and energy storage. The latter is achieved simply by adding more tanks and filling them with solution, so the expensive bit is the power rating.

Trevor.

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This is a big deal for NZ electricity providers and a a very big deal for wind power as it is not usually available on hot summer days.

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bjchip. My point about the heat pumps that are being encouraged by ECA etc. is that they are also air conditioners. People that wouldn’t bother with aircon buy these for heating.
The problem is that when hot weather turns up they use them for cooling as well.
I’ve seen data that suggests that if the current rate of sale of heat pumps continues at the current rate for another 2 years then the peak electricity usage for the upper north island will go from cold winter to hot summer.
This is a big deal for NZ electricity providers and a a very big deal for wind power as it is not usually available on hot summer days.
Don’t assume that everybody is a partisan. Since the start of big government subsidies on wind power the wind power business has become sleazy place. But there are still people involved who started out as greens and still believe that selling somebody something they don’t need by misrepresentation is fraud and theft, not business.
Spending money to keep water in reservoirs IN CASE you need it is very wasteful.

Trevor29, I don’t get your obsession with wind power. vanadium redox flow batteries! how much money are you willing to spend just to go for a bad option? VRFs cost as much as the turbine to store just 2 hours of output! Another thing not made in NZ as well, as though importing expensive electricity from Denmark is not enough.
Energy market services do a breakdown of energy supply. I don’t think you can get very detailed data without an account. If you work for govt or a big co then somebody in your org should be able to help you.
Go to http://www.em6live.co.nz for a snapshot. As I write this it is a ‘windy’ day for most people. NZ’s wind turbines are producing at 21% of capacity (if you include the ones that are broken).
If you google “Relative Carbon Emissions Superior alternatives” you should find evidence on the MFE site that refs that study. I suspect that once again you have to pay for the whole thing.

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Emerald said:
NZ’s climate as far as wind goes is fairly homogeneous for the area between Auckland and Dunedin. If turbines were installed from North cape to the south of Stuart Island things would be better. This is not in prospect.

The wind resource north of Kaitaia is significant. The only problem is the lack of transmission lines, so the cost of setting up a wind farm there is significant.

Wind generation coupled with local storage (such as vanadium redox flow batteries) could provide a significant amount of Stewart Island’s power as well. I don’t know what the wind resource is like on the south coast of the South Island, but I do know that they have a good wave resource there.

And yes, as an engineer, I am fully aware that the devil is in the details.

Could you provide a link to the wind generation statistics from last year? All I have to go on is the quarterly information that says wind generation exceeded 3% of our demand. While you are at it, where can I find this detailed analysis that you mentioned?

Trevor.

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If you want to check then look at the last years wind generation. There have been turbines installed from the south of the south island to mid north island for the last year. See how often they are generating very little power.

Hmmmm… the use of the wind to keep water in the reservoirs is still valid. That energy is still there in the summer months.

I don’t need heat in the summer. If we are going to need A/C in the summer that is another issue. Might well need it, but that is why a smarter mix is required. Expanding wind generation by building in the North of the country would be be unlikely to be cost effective. Did we propose that? No.

I am stilll wondering where you are getting information. Someone who hates wind generators . The disinformation on that front has always been deafening, but there is room here for both.

This seems useful…

http://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=12&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.shortrotationcrops.org%2FPDFs%2F2003Mtg%2F18-SimsTransportEconomics.pdf&ei=M-R9StyXEofKsQPB96TuCg&usg=AFQjCNEXsx73sqCPcNxCv_pTbmtB52ih7g&sig2=01tzPjbsLRmaXYb6hZEYQw

respectfully
BJ

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I think there are a few people that need to do some background research on this forum.
Turnip. power generation from wet biomass is a bit of a job. From good wood material it is easy.
NZ is very fortunate in that high quality fuel wood can be grown very quickly.
So quickly in fact that the most economic power generation for the north island (even cheaper than coal without its carbon cost!) is IGCC gas turbine fuel by intensively grown acacia / eucalyptus mixed rotation trees.
Transport costs mean that the most economic size for this type of plant is 10-20 MW. This is local coop size so you can imagine that NZ’s SOEs do not want this technology to get a foothold. 100MW and over plant sizes require very cheap transport, something like river barges.
Radiata is a poor fuel but eucalypts have a very high calorific value even with a short (minutes for chip) drying cycle.

Trevor29, you need to learn that the devil is in the details in things like electricity generation for a whole country for a whole decade.

The numbers I gave for equivalent capacity for wind power above were based on an analysis for the thing we were discussing ie. 3000MW of wind power. In fact for 2500MW placed where there have already been applications for wind farms.
NZ’s climate as far as wind goes is fairly homogeneous for the area between Auckland and Dunedin. If turbines were installed from North cape to the south of Stuart Island things would be better. This is not in prospect.
A detailed analysis of different generation options using the actual weather of previous years and the same level of risk for each clearly shows wind as a bad option. In two years out of three 3000MW of wind is relatively useless. Even 3000MW of CC gas turbines run on gas save three times as much carbon emissions on average. They also cost less than half even including the fuel!
If you want to check then look at the last years wind generation. There have been turbines installed from the south of the south island to mid north island for the last year. See how often they are generating very little power.
Even if all the 3000 MW are installed they will only extend another 200KM north. This area just gets a lighter version of the manawatu winds, it won’t improve diversification.
If NZ wants wind power than there are two obvious options.
Install singles or small clusters of the cheap-efficient-green wood structure based 100-250KW turbines. (opps there goes the govt monopoly on power again). A quarter of the price of the big 2-3MW ones for the same power and much less of a grid upgrade needed. About 1/50th of the carbon emissions per MW as well.
Build 2000MW of heavy duty turbines on Auckland Island and a undersea DC link to the SouthIsland, this is about half the price of 2-3MW turbines to produce the same power on the main islands.

The bottom line is that 3000MW of wind power will cost about 30 billion dollars with the grid upgrade needed for it and most of this will go abroad. At least 2000MW of proper non weather dependant base load generation needs to be built as well before 2013. If Huntly is decommissioned add another 1000MW!
The proliferation of heat pumps is a ticking power time bomb. If the base load generation is not built the next hot dry summer will see extensive power cuts in Auckland, not just in the rural areas like last year. Wind power will not help!

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Turnip

The pulp and paper mills regularly burn wood residue in co-generation plant. This means that it is currently economical. It will be more economical as electricity prices are pushed up with rising gas and oil prices.

Trevor.

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Turnip

I think it depends a lot on how much of a hurry you are in. Harvesting wood for use as an effective fuel depends on an extended natural drying process or an accelerated artificial drying process. I imagine that to make this work it will take more land and effort than current methods might entail.

respectfully
BJ

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