by Russel Norman
And now National, and presumably Act shortly, are voting against Rahui Katene’s bill for a Matariki Day holiday.
So they are against protecting dolphins, don’t support measures to stamp out slavery, and don’t support having a national day that reflects Aotearoa.
Published in Environment & Resource Management by Russel Norman on Wed, July 29th, 2009
More posts by Russel Norman | more about Russel Norman
on the trolls and those who are unable to keep on topic
>>against protecting dolphins, don’t support measures to stamp out slavery, and don’t support having a national day that reflects Aotearoa.
As the proverb goes: ‘He who knows not and knows not that he knows not, he is a fool, shun him’. Unfortunately, we don’t have that luxury! It’s difficult to ignore our ‘wise’ rulers
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“And now National, and presumably Act shortly, are voting against Rahui Katene’s bill for a Matariki Day holiday. ”
there’ll be a backlash for sure
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Aue! Kei te pouri au. Goodness, I am sad. Bet you’re regretting siding with Labour pre-election now watching such a proactive National/Act Government in full swing. How depressing particularly about the marine mammals bill. Fortunately Sue just won some points on Back Benches but it’s not quite the same as securing the future of our magnificent marine taonga. Kia kaha Parliamentary team.
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We’re already got Waitangi Day. We don’t need another ethnic activist “celebration”.
Would support a New Zealand Day, for all New Zealanders.
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That I would agree with; a day where we can be patriotic and be proud of being New Zealanders instead of a day filled with protests. I nominate 26 September as that day (26 September was the day we became a Dominion).
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rachel anderson-smith Says:
July 29th, 2009 at 10:04 pm
> Aue! Kei te pouri au. Goodness, I am sad. Bet you’re regretting siding with Labour pre-election now watching such a proactive National/Act Government in full swing.
Yeah, it would be completely different if the Greens hadn’t stated a preference for working with Labour… would it?
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# BluePeter Says:
July 29th, 2009 at 11:37 pm
We’re already got Waitangi Day. We don’t need another ethnic activist “celebration”.
Would support a New Zealand Day, for all New Zealanders.
Yes we do not want to give them the idea that we actually give a damn about them do we? Only superior white holidays such as Queens birthday are valued in NZ.
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Adding to that isn’t it even more ironic that this happened during Maori language week, the time when we recognize the damage which was caused by forced assimilation and ethnocide?
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I don’t care whether Matariki is a holiday or not – I’ll keep celebrating it anyway. It’s good to have at least one festival related to the seasons that isn’t at the opposite time of the year from the season its traditions developed around.
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>>Queens birthday
Scrap that.
Have a New Zealand day. For all New Zealanders.
Waitangi could have been a day for New Zealanders to celebrate unity, the now, and teh future. But it’s the complete opposite. Nothing more than a platform for Maori activists to drag up the past. Heavily political. Horrid.
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>>the time when we recognize the damage which was caused by forced assimilation and ethnocide?
I rest my case.
A day of celebration is lost on activists, huh. Your parties must be so much fun.
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@BluePeter-
Although it is difficult to treat Waitangi day as you would desire while there are still treaty infringements which have yet to be settled. There is some irony in trying to celebrate a day as being great for all New Zealanders when its obligations have historically not been met.
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Well, we clearly don’t need another one.
We need a celebration day. We’ve all drawn lifes golden lottery ticket living here. Celebrate that. Base it on the nation, not race.
Leave the endless whining for Waitangi….
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“We’re already got Waitangi Day. We don’t need another ethnic activist “celebration”. ”
I guess we should scrap Easter and Christmas, which, being Christian, aren’t relevent to many New Zealanders.
“Waitangi could have been a day for New Zealanders to celebrate unity, the now, and teh future. But it’s the complete opposite. ”
Yeah, bloody maories, refusing to celebrate being colonised and having a foreign government imposed on them. They always ruin the fun. Perhaps we could have a “Invasion of Waikato Day” or a “Smash up of Parihaka Day”.
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BluePeter – in fact the Green caucus does hold a Matariki party each year. This year it was at the end of the Matariki period, last week. People certainly seemed to be having fun, and it would be a pleasure to invite you to next year’s to demonstrate the point.
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# reddeath26 Says:
July 30th, 2009 at 9:56 am
> Only superior white holidays such as Queens birthday are valued in NZ.
We can’t get rid of Queen’s Birthday. The McGillicuddies would be up in arms! (paper swords, I imagine)
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>>I guess we should scrap Easter and Christmas, which, being Christian, aren’t relevent to many New Zealanders.
If it were up to me, I would scrap all public holidays, add ten days to everyone’s holiday entitlement, and let the individual decide.
Sorted.
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Grinch
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Freedom and liberty.
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The Man Who Stole Christmas
Gotta love ‘im!
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Didn’t have you pegged as being a Christian….
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Ah, those holidays where families get together to celebrate traditional festivals! Ban them! Ban them all, says BluePeter, champion of .. freedom?
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“We can’t get rid of Queen’s Birthday. The McGillicuddies would be up in arms! (paper swords, I imagine)”
That’ would be ALF’s Army. McGillicuddies wanted Prince Geoffie the First on the non-throne of NZ (AKA Geoffie the Reluctant – the guy we chose as monarch thought it was a stupid idea) .
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BP
Don’t be silly. We have absolutely nothing to celebrate the Solstice and I for one would be happy to be allowed the luxury of celebrating the start of the SOUTHERN New Year here. We don’t do this well at all. Would you rather call it something else? I don’t care as long as it is done at the right time of the year.
…or we could celebrate “Armstrong Day” (close enough I suppose). However, there’d be few if any in this country to understand that this was more important to our species than the the birth or death of some guy deified by one of our peculiar religions.
http://www.mithrandir.com/Tranquility/tranquilityArticle.html
Somehow I don’t think this will be nearly as popular around here as Matariki.
respectfully
BJ
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I dont believe that Nats and ACT are voting against Matariki Day; they simply want there not to be another public holiday, which is a different thing.
If BP had his way and there was a vote on having an all NZ day, perhaps on 26 September, the Nats and ACT would vote against that too.
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I want a “Worship The Money Gods Day”.
(I don’t really, but Greenfly would enjoy the stereotype, no doubt)
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Classic Bluepeter,
“I want”.
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Beats “gimmie, gimmie”
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Meanwhile, over on Kiwiblog..# Bryan Spondre aka The Link Whore
July 30th, 2009 at 10:59 am
says:
Scrap all public holidays and add 10 days to annual leave. Take them when it suits employee and employer. Job done.
Here on Frogblog..Bluepeter says:
If it were up to me, I would scrap all public holidays, add ten days to everyone’s holiday entitlement, and let the individual decide.
Sorted.
Sorted indeed.
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Awe heck
Let’s just have one three-day weekend every month, all of January and every seventh Wednesday starting from 1 Jan as holidays. Put that on top of a three week “leave” entitlement for the workers (a.k.a. tax payers) and we’d have people flocking to join us from all over the world.
However, if we give a special holiday to one ethnic group, we might have to give it to each of them in the interest of both parties to the Treaty (i.e. Maori AND non-Maori) being treated equally.
Personally, I think we should give $10,000 to every man woman and child that has more than 128th Maori Blood and lives in New Zealand in return for them each signing a declaration of compliance abolition of the Treaty. That way we can get on with fighting the rest of the world for prosperity rather than each other.
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>>Sorted indeed.
Next time I’ll cut n paste…..
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No luck fishing – can’t even catch a cold.
Strings; I like it a lot. More of your time here please. I know you’ll have to put up with juvenile twits shrieking ‘prove it prove it’
Close your eyes and think of NZ as a Nation – ah you have already!!!!
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BluePeter once said:
I have extensive experience in this field, and that spend on a website is patently ridiculous. The fact that any government official would defend it merely shows they have no idea what things cost.
From my calculations, they are overpaying by a factor of 13 on the website alone, so god knows what else they are wasting money on.
It is reasonably straightforward to measure a websites reach. Take a website where you know the traffic numbers, compare it across tracking services like Compete, Alexa, Google Trends, and others, then do the same thing for the target site.
Goodness Peter! You once had a blog also. It’s now extinct. What happened?
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I’ve had a few of ‘em for fun. Blogs don’t make money. You need to be in the transactional space to make money.
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Oh, I’m not Bryan.
Or the messiah.
But you know that.
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Bluepeter says:
“If it were up to me, I would scrap all public holidays, add ten days to everyone’s holiday entitlement, and let the individual decide.”
I’d suppoirt that idea if I thought the workers would have the negotiating power to actually get the holidays on the days they wanted. In practice, many would not. My uncle worked as a driver of a concrete mixer truck in the era of the Employment Contracts Act. He seemed to have absolutely no power to negotiate when he was going to take his leave, or even to get his employer to tell him more than a day in advance when he was going to be forced to take it.
As for the current system, I used to have a Buddhist friend who worked as a nurse. Her response to days like Christmas Day and Good Friday was ‘yippee! time-and-a-half AND a day-off-in-lieu’. And I’m sure her christian and atheist Kiwi workmates appreciated her working those days as much as she appreciated the remuneration she got for working them.
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You’re IceBaby aren’t you?
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Peter – you have extensive experience in operating a website? Which site is that? I’d love to have a look at your work.
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I like my anonymity, Greenfly. I’m sure you know about Whois.
Lots of websites. Lots of domain names. Keeps me in beer, yah….
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“He seemed to have absolutely no power to negotiate when he was going to take his leave, or even to get his employer to tell him more than a day in advance when he was going to be forced to take it.”
Are you denying the freedom of an employer to tell an employee they can’t spend Christmas with their families?
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This is getting very Yes Minister….
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More apartheid from the Communists.
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“More apartheid from the Communists.”
More stupidity from the anonymous.
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Only the true Messiah would deny his divinity!
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Matariki …
We are talking about the constellation called “Matariki” that the people of the Pacific have used to navigate by for many generations … as they spread across the Pacific occupying every livable tiny atoll, and the bigger Islands … and kept in touch with each other (in their ocean-going Waka).
On the other hand, the “WONDERFUL” European Sea Captains (that some “New Zealanders” seem keen to name all sorts of things after, including our highest mountains that were already named) and who we give credit for “discovering” and “naming” long inhabited Islands like “Aotearoa” that was then renamed “New Zealand” (Zeeland being a bit of flat land in what is now called The Netherlands … a part of continental Europe).
These European sea captains “discovered” this land by asking the Polynesians … who navigated by Matariki and other stars … and already knew how to find this place …
(James Cook, for example, took young Polynesians with him to help with the language AND navigation.
(He was an experienced seafarer and recognised local knowledge when he came across it.) He was shown the way to Aotearoa …
Matariki is also known in the Northern Hemisphere as “Pleiades” (or “the Seven Sisters”) … the same cluster of stars that the people of the Northern Hemisphere had navigated by for generations …
I find it INCREDIBLE that so many Pakeha seem to be afraid of Maori and other Polynesians getting ANY credence for discovering and settling the entire Pacific, atoll after atoll, while their own ancestors were wandering over continental Europe … or Asia … or wherever they lived at that time.
We ALL live together in the South Pacific now. This is the place that shapes us all. In the sky above us is a constellation that in the Pacific (where we live) is known as “Matariki …” At this time of the year, I and my family will celebrate its re appearance in the sky (over Aotearoa New Zealand).
This is not about ethnicity or “race”.
THIS IS ABOUT WHO WE ARE AND WHERE WE AVE CHOSEN TO LIVE.
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Well, what chance does that give me?!? All right, I am the Messiah!
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I hear a c*ck crowing thrice!
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“I find it INCREDIBLE that so many Pakeha seem to be afraid of Maori and other Polynesians getting ANY credence for discovering and settling the entire Pacific, atoll after atoll, while their own ancestors were wandering over continental Europe … or Asia … or wherever they lived at that time.”
And I find it incredible that people have to understate the achievements of Europeans or “pakeha” in order to overstate the achievements of Polynesians.
There is no evidence for the navigational skills of the Polynesians to enable them to travel back and forth from Aotearoa, however there is abundant evidence for Europeans doing far more than “wandering over continental Europe”.
I am proud of my heritage and the achievements of my ancestors, I find your attitude offensive.
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“We ALL live together in the South Pacific now. This is the place that shapes us all. In the sky above us is a constellation that in the Pacific (where we live) is known as “Matariki …” At this time of the year, I and my family will celebrate its re appearance in the sky (over Aotearoa New Zealand).
This is not about ethnicity or “race”.
THIS IS ABOUT WHO WE ARE AND WHERE WE AVE CHOSEN TO LIVE.”
I like what you have said here eredwen, why did you even need to say that other stuff?.
Perhaps Queens birthday weekend could be replaced with “Matariki weekend”.
But it would only work if it was a TRUE reflection of who we all are.
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Um, you would find that throughout history, those who have taken land have renamed various items of the landscape for their own purposes. Just take Gdansk in Poland; it was originally named Danzig and had that name since the Middle Ages, yet the Poles changed it after World War II.
Further to that, they were the first known Europeans (I am one of those who suspect that the Portugese or the Spanish were here at least eighty years before Tasman) to have found this place, so they discovered it. Columbus is known as the discoverer of America, even though he wasn’t even the first European to find it (that went to the Vikings), and even though he didn’t land on the continent itself (that went to John Cabot in 1497).
I don’t have any issues with whoever discovered the place first, my issue is with the system of racism that is being promoted here. Twenty-five years ago, a minority race having all these benefits was called apartheid, and we protested against it.
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Bloody hell. I really can understand why some people are worried by the implications of Te Tiriti rights being restored to Maori. But trying to make white NZ look like the victims that black South Africans were is about as daft a thing as I’ve ever heard. Its very hard to take anyone seriously who can say that with a straight face.
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Valis,
The difference is degree.
It does not matter if the abuse actually happens or the extent to which that abuse happens, though that does exacibate the problem, what matters is the perceptions. Remember that the Jews were not advantaged over the Germans and indeed were activly discriminated against but since the majority Germans perceived the Jews to be advantaged relative to themselves Hitler was able to gain power off the back of anti-Jew sentiment. The same has played out in Africa many times over; sometimes actual differences exist sometimes they dont, the actuallity is of little relivance.
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Valis said,
Nobody is actually worried about that at all. Not a single person or group can even paint a picture what New Zealand society will look like if those rights were restored, so how can we be worried?
So your challange is, paint that picture. What will society look like?
How will it function?
If there are any worries after you have done that, I will let you know.
But, as I suspect, there is no picture at all, why do you think we are worried?
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So not a single person can paint the picture, but you’ll decide if there are problems after you see it. That puts the problem rather well. It means we’d have to commit in principle and then trust to process and that scares lots of people. If no one was worried, we’d be doing it already.
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It does not matter if the abuse actually happens or the extent to which that abuse happens, though that does exacibate the problem, what matters is the perceptions.
Both things matter. Its like wat calling all coercion fascism. Many words have well accepted meanings and are used simply to scare people and that’s what’s being done here.
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Ah, the magic principle of “process” guiding the outcome.
So my interpretation that the “process” will lead to total indifference in the population of New Zealand (due to changing demographics) is as applicable as your.
As I said, before long the “process” will be nothing but a quaint custom specific to New Zealand.
Of not relavent to the larger population.
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I don’t think a process of dialogue with Maori would be magic at all. It would be a hard slog to get somewhere that satisfied both sides. I guess if you like magic, you can pretend these problems will go away if you do nothing but wait for demographics to fix things.
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Valis,
If both happen then the effect is far more justifyable. If the abuse is absent but the perception of abuse is there then the people will be just as hating. They will just lack empirical evidence to back up their claims, not that that will stop them.
A picture? Try Pre-World War II Germany.
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That is of course presuming that the majority group perceives the minority group to be exploiting them or to hold more rights than them. The sentiment is already there, the next step is poverty and a good orator or a further shift suficent to get them off their arses and want to do something about it
.
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The dialogue would need finese that no politician presently holds and sacrifice on both sides, though mostly sacrifice of asspirations and perceived birth-rights.
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False perceptions don’t just come down from heaven, they are created. I just can’t see why we shouldn’t speak out particularly when the falseness of the perception being manufactured is so huge.
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“I just can’t see why we shouldn’t speak out particularly when the falseness of the perception being manufactured is so huge.”
Exactly – for example:
“Twenty-five years ago, a minority race having all these benefits was called apartheid, and we protested against it.”
These ‘benefits’ seem to be a belated acceptance of a group’s culture having value, a language week once a year, the odd bit of ceremony and compensation for loss of inheritance of a tiny percentage of the value of what was lost. Yet you’d think the sky was falling.
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I have no issue with culture, Maori language week or most of the other stuff. What I have an issue with are the actual benefits, such as
Scholarships for Maori and Maori only. If I were to have a scholarship that was open to Europeans only, I would be called a racist; yet Maori scholarships are acceptable.
Special Parliamentary seats for Maori and Maori only. If I were to suggest that we have European only seats I would be called a racist; yet Maori seats are acceptable.
Special programmes for Maori and Maori only. If I were to suggest that we have special programmes for Europeans only, I would be called a racist; yet special programmes for Maori are acceptable.
There are just a few; I am a believer in equality between races, not this system where Maori get these benefits just because of an accident of birth.
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Valis,
Yes, false perceptions are created. Sometimes by the informed, mostly by the uninformed. To speak out in an attempt to dispel the false perceptions is good and well when only good can come of such actions but in reality there will always be positive and negative effects.
I strongly agree that dialogue between the two artificially seperated parties is needed and that it is needed sooner rather than latter. I do not agree that one ethnic group should be granted more rights than another simply due to their being here first and them being duked by a treaty; esspecially when the rights that are commonly perceived to be granted under the treaty are false and those that are granted under that treaty, ti tiriti, are already realised; the rest being a case more of civil action against the curtailment of rights granted to all citizens rather than ethnicity specific rights.
I do not agree with one ethnic group being above the other just as i do not agree with discrimiantion based on gender or sexuality, but in the case of ethnicity this goes past being fair or gaining moderate benefit for society; in the absence of such equality, perceived or not, society suffers from significant strife, unrest, and possibly war.
Unless the two peoples are equal under the law there can be no movement foward, that must be a fundimental and unmovable facet of the dialogue or NZ will cease to exist.
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I am a believer in equality between races, not this system where Maori get these benefits just because of an accident of birth.
No historical context to be seen here folks, just move along.
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To speak out in an attempt to dispel the false perceptions is good and well when only good can come of such actions but in reality there will always be positive and negative effects.
So you mean don’t ever do it then, no matter how lopsided the situation, which is a worse position to be in.
I don’t agree with parts of the rest of your post, but nothing there makes the same sort of outrageous claim like that the NZ situation is anything like apartheid South Africa.
At the end of the day, you have to get both sides to agree to have a lasting peace. Using the rhetoric of apartheid will take us away from the goal, not toward it.
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Valis,
So what I mean is that the benefit provided by the good must be weighed against the costs imposed by the negative.
As to apartheid, the historical context is not similar, but that said it is still a matter of one ethnically defined group obtaining more rights than another.
I agree that Maori should be granted reperation for the misdeeds of europeans. I do not agree that this should take the form of more rights. By all means Maori should be compensated for confiscation where the price paid was unfair or the proposed use was false. This is a matter of the european state violating its own laws. Similarly land aquisitions through misleading contracts should be rectified, this also coms under european law.
That down, the only remaining facets that deserve any attention are that of maori being here first and of ti tiriti. Maori bing here first is a moot point, there is absolutly no reason why they should be granted more rights than settlers based solely on this point. As to ti tiriti, it does not grant Maori any rights above europeans. The contestable section, number two, essentially promises independance from the rule of the queen to the people of new zealand, not a seperate government and sovereignty for maori.
The state has committed many attrocities against Maori but none of them justify seperate rights and nor does their indiginous status nor ti tiriti. To say that they should have greater rights is nothing but naive, romantic, idealism detached from any understanding of reality and human interaction.
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Correct or otherwise, your post is not relevant to my point.
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john ston says:
>”Scholarships for Maori and Maori only. ..”
The only Maori only scholarships I have seen at my uni are from Maori organisations. People have a right to give their money to who they like. I certainly would object to anyone saying I couldn’t assist my nephew through uni unless I make it available to strangers as well.
Even if there are a tiny number of Govt funded Maori scholarships, IMO its small recompense for the deliberate under-education of Maori since the establishment of universal education (according to quotes from eg the Minister of Education in the first Labour Govt). Plus I have to ask whether the universities sit on stolen Maori land (Waikato does – it was returned but Tainui graciously allow the uni to keep using it)
>”Special Parliamentary seats for Maori and Maori only. ”
Set up to disenfranchise Maori when they were the majority of the population. I wonder if you’d complain under the original circumstances.
>”Special programmes for Maori and Maori only.”
I assume you’re not meaning Te Karere (cos anyone is allowed to watch)
If you mean provision of social services, the vast majority of them are run according to Pakeha culture. A small number are run under Maori tikanga (although in my experience they are happy to take Pakeha clients as well, its just that most prefer to stick to what they know and feel comfortable with).
Presumably you’d prefer services that don’t work for Maori, so long as they conform to Pakeha ways of doing things?
>”I am a believer in equality between races, not this system where Maori get these benefits just because of an accident of birth.”
Right…. err…. have you actually had a look at who gets most of the benefits of living in this country? Who contols most of the resources, political power, financial institutions, education system, media etc etc. I guess Pakeha don’t have enough if its not the whole damn cake?
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“Unless the two peoples are equal under the law there can be no movement foward, that must be a fundimental and unmovable facet of the dialogue or NZ will cease to exist.”
OK – but which law and whose law?
Scholarships for Maori and Maori only. Very limited – no big deal really.
Special Parliamentary seats for Maori and Maori only – well known difficulty of trying to represent a minority in a “one person – one vote” system. I’m fine about removing Maori seats if somebody comes up with another way of ensuing particular Maori interests are protected. If all the other problems were ironed out, I’m sure Maori seats would go.
Special programmes – which ones?
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Sam,
One state of all New Zealanders, one law for all New Zealanders.
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“At the end of the day, you have to get both sides to agree to have a lasting peace. Using the rhetoric of apartheid will take us away from the goal, not toward it.”
Yeah, and the politically correct approach to race relations is creating new race issues that never historically existed in this country.
Have the left not yet worked out why the Maori party told you to shove it?
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Shunda – the Maori Party have hitched their wagon to the Nats because they believe that they will gain greater benefit from them. The Maori Party is not the maori people.
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No greenfly, they were sick and tired of being strung along and patronized by the left, they have said some scathing things about certain left wing politicians and policy.
“The Maori Party is not the maori people.”
No, but they are highly respected by the Maori community.
The Maori people have been abused by the left, but due to the wisdom and intelligence of their leaders they have forged a relationship with those that give them respect.
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The Maori Party did no such thing, particularly with the Greens. They were born of an internal Labour Party conflict when a law was passed that you probably support, no less. Key is doing way better. That doesn’t mean its a left/right issue. Its about specific people, as you have alluded to.
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“That doesn’t mean its a left/right issue. ”
No, I think it is. Contemporary left wing ideology (particularly social) has done nothing for the Maori people, and they have realized this thankfully.
Isn’t it amazing how John Key has developed a relationship with Maori that is far more advanced in 9 months, than the left could manage in 9 years.
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That Minister of Education would have been in government at least sixty years ago; things have changed and Maori get the same (if not sometimes better) educational opportunities as all New Zealanders. To suggest that they should get compensated for under education is ludicrous, since in the first place, the people who were disadvantaged are either dead or elderly, and secondly, with a bit of effort, one could easily find people who were under educated who were not Maori.
In terms of the Universities, I would probably say that only Waikato falls into that category. The entire South Island was purchased from Maori (some pieces were purchased multiple times), and so to was Auckland and Wellington.
Further to that, if one is looking at compensation for confiscated land, then when are the Fairburns going to get compensation? The area where I live was originally bought by Rev Fairburn as a peacemaking gesture, and was later nicked by the Crown. How about all those families who had their land taken off them for the Te Atatu Port proposal? I am saying that Maori who lost their land unjustly shouldn’t be compensated, but what I am saying is that there is a double standard.
Yes I would; I have always been a believer in one person, one vote. I am opposed to methods that are designed to distort that, whether it be gerrymanders, the rural quota or ethnic based seats.
I was looking at social services, that is correct (I don’t have an issue with Te Karere, and if you look at Triangle TV, there are plenty of other ethnic minority television shows). I was thinking of things like the mentoring programme at Auckland Uni for Maori and Pacific Island students (I forgot its name), which is designed for them and them alone. Again, I call a double standard there.
Nothing to do with the whole damn cake, it is all about equality. Imagine how frustrating it must be for a student who just misses out on Med School, or second year Law while a Maori student who got lower marks manages to get in because of an accident of birth.
We have that system already, it is called MMP. Even if we omitted the Maori Party’s seats (no Maori seats makes it unlikely that they would have gotten into Parliament), there are still about 15 Maori MPs in our Parliament, and there have been at least 10 Maori MPs in our Parliament since 1996.
Maori interests are sufficiently protected with an MMP system.
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Shunda, its funny watching you shoe horn things into your own preferred explanations regardless of facts
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“Shunda, its funny watching you shoe horn things into your own preferred explanations regardless of facts”
No I just listen to what Maori party MP’s say on television.
Are they liars Valis?
Or are you just ashamed that the Maori party have formed their best working relationship since the parties inception, with a National party leader!!!
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Clark and Turia sat around the same Cabinet table for half the last 9 years and then had one of the biggest falling outs in the history of NZ politics. How can you just completely discount this? Personal relationships matter in politics, even among people who say they are focused on the big picture. Maori voted Labour overwhelmingly at the last election. That the Maori Party went with National might well work for them, but to paint it as a realignment is premature at the very least.
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# jh Says:
July 31st, 2009 at 6:39 pm
Previewed comment:
(James Cook, for example, took young Polynesians with him to help with the language AND navigation.
(He was an experienced seafarer and recognised local knowledge when he came across it.)*He was shown the way to Aotearoa* …
Do you have any references for that Eredwen?
“According to Andrew Sharp, the explorer Captain James Cook, already familiar with Charles de Brousse’s accounts of large groups of Pacific islanders who were driven off course in storms and ended up hundreds of miles away with no idea where they were, encountered in the course of one of his own voyages a castaway group of Tahitians who had become lost at sea in a gale and blown 100 miles away to the island of Atiu. Cook wrote that the Atiu incident, “will serve to explain, better than the thousand conjectures of speculative reasoners, how the detached parts of the earth, and, in particular, how the South Seas, may have been peopled”.[9] On his first voyage of Pacific exploration Cook had the services of a Polynesian navigator, Tupaia, who drew a map of the islands within 2000 miles radius (to the north and west) of his home island of Ra’iatea.”[No Reference]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polynesian_navigation
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I’m doing some research;
“This day one of the Natives, who appeared to be a Chief, dined with us, as he had done some days before; but then there were always some Women present, and one or another of them put the Victuals into his Mouth *, but this day there happened to be none to Perform that Office. When he was help’d to victuals and desir’d to eat, he sat in the Chair like a Statute, without once attempting to put a Morsel to his mouth, and would certainly have gone without his dinner if one of the Servants had not fed him.”
From Captain Cooks Journal Tahiti
* :smirk: :snort:
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The farthest Island to the Southward that Tupia hath been at, or knows anything of, lies but 2 days’ Sail from Ohetiroa, and is called Moutou,* (* Tubuai.) but he says that his father once told him that there was Islands to the Southward of it; but we Cannot find that he either knows or ever heard of a Continent or large Track of Land. I have no reason to doubt Tupia’s information of these Islands, for when we left Ulietea and steer’d to the Southward he told us that if we would keep a little more to the East (which the wind would not permit us to do) we should see Manua, but as we then steer’d we should see Ohetiroa, which hapned accordingly. If we meet with the Islands to the Southward he speaks off, it’s well, but if not, I shall spend no more time searching for them, being now fully resolv’d to stand directly to the Southward in search of a Continent. Wind Northerly; course South 1/2 East; distance 94 miles; latitude 24 degrees 1 minute South, longitude 150 degrees 37 minutes West; at noon, Ohetiroa North 1/2 West, 31 leagues; variation 6 degrees 7 minutes East.
NOTE. As we advanced to the Southward into Cold weather, and a troubled Sea, the Hogs we got at Ulietea began to die apace. They cannot endure the least cold, nor will they hardly eat anything but vegetables, so that they are not at all to be depended upon at Sea. The fowls also have a complaint general among them which affects their heads, so that they continue holding it down betwixt their Legs until they die; this at least was the fate of most of ours. This is necessary to be known to those who come such Voyages as these, least they place too much dependance on the live stock they get at the Islands.
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“Isn’t it amazing how John Key has developed a relationship with Maori that is far more advanced in 9 months, than the left could manage in 9 years.”
When you say “the left” do you mean Helen Clark? Not really the same thing.
“One state of all New Zealanders, one law for all New Zealanders.”
OK – if that’s what you want, how about a legal system based on Maori tikanga that applies to everyone equally? And a state based on decentralised authority replicating the loosley federated hapu/iwi system?
“The entire South Island was purchased from Maori (some pieces were purchased multiple times), and so to was Auckland and Wellington.”
Wrong – the tenths were not included in the sales – they were taken anyway.
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“there were always some Women present, and one or another of them put the Victuals into his Mouth ”
Not sure what this has to do with anything – but this sounds similar to a tradition of a person not handling food when they were tapu in specific circumstances – did Cook have a clue what was going on?
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““Isn’t it amazing how John Key has developed a relationship with Maori that is far more advanced in 9 months, than the left could manage in 9 years.”
When you say “the left” do you mean Helen Clark? Not really the same thing.”
Well Helen pretty much thought she was NZ by the end of her rein, in any case, your point makes no difference to the fact that John Key is the most respected prime minister by Maori for a very long time.
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That’s a safe come back since of course as no one was arguing otherwise.
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Sam,
I wouldint have a problem with that.
I personally beleive that having decisions made closer to the people affected can have significant benefits due to greater perceived control over their personal matters; Though most of the research supporting this is in relation to organisational psychology.
As to law based on Maori tikanga, I dont really see a problem with this, it is just a different foundational standpoint. Our present legal system is based on british tikanga after all but as the century has progressed so has the law moved away from british values to an approach which provides greater benefit ot all citizens. I beleive that while a system based on Maori tikanga would have a different foundation it too would move in this dirrection. I dont however approve of the idea of a different legal system for Maori as opposed to Pakeha, as has been proposed by many; it would provide alittle benefit but that benefit would be far inferior to other approaches and the harm done would be monumental.
Of course, what arrangement is best depends on what goal you want to see acheived. So long as my goals are served I dont care what cultural epistemologies and ontologies are used. The most important thing for me that is not present in Maori culture but is in European culture, in most instances, is the concept that knowledge is ther efor the taking and all you have to do is seek. I find the ‘knowledge as tapu’ and to be guarded aspect of Maori culture to be extremly counter-productive in a non-waring society.
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“John Key is the most respected prime minister by Maori for a very long time.”
Depends which Maori you ask – there isn’t a collectively held opinion. It’sd a bit dangerous to make generalisations like “Maori think such and such…”.
Nor does “more respected than Helen Clark” really mean much (the PM who possibly managed to destroy the long-standing relationship with Ratana).
Nor does John Key really represent ‘the right’. Didn’t Rodney Hide say he was to the left of Helen on a lot of issues?
“Helen pretty much thought she was NZ by the end of her rein”
Actually I thought she considered herself much bigger than that. She sometimes radiated a “God help me why was I stuck with being PM of this obscure little backwater”
“As to law based on Maori tikanga, I dont really see a problem with this,”
All sweet then.
“I find the ‘knowledge as tapu’ and to be guarded aspect of Maori culture to be extremly counter-productive in a non-waring society.”
Haven’t really seen this at all in Maori society – except possible in realtion to some spiritual stuff. Currently Maori seem quite happy to share knowledge. More so than current Pakeha culture with its increasing barriers to ‘intellectual property’.
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Sam,
Only some knowledge, other knowledge such as would be held by the learned was highly guarded. The ultimate display of this ultimatly being Io, the suprime deity of the Maori pantheon, not even known to the common man.
Given the waring nature of traditional Maori society it makes perfect sense to prevent the enemy from aquiring knowledge which could help them in their fight. In the present situation this is somewhat less useful and rather counter-productive. Im not a great fan of intelectual property, or the copy right for that matter, but it does have its uses; particuarly so where the development of the restricted object incurs significant costs such as is the cae for pharmicuticals.
Aptly, I must now depart to catch a bus so that I may discuss, and learn more about, Maori psychology.
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I put the success that National is having with the Maori Party down to Bill English. He has been working on a realistic approach to and understanding of Maori issues since before the Brash attack. Bill, unlike his ‘barely able to use English language’ leader, has done the groundwork with te reo, tikanga and taha Maori generally, aided by some very able people. Good thinking Bill. (You shouldn’t be stealing quite so much from us taxpayers to feather your Karori nest though, ya’ shyster!).
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“knowledge such as would be held by the learned was highly guarded.”
“Was” being the operative word here. Is it currently the case?
Pakeha priests used to write, and talk about, about spiritual issues in Latin, ensuring a barrier was kept between the learned and tha ordinary folks. So what?
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Sam,
My study lies mostly in the historical. While I am of Maori dissent I do not consider myself Maori and thus have little interaction with the community. Maori today are far to diverse to cover their beleifs all with a single statement. I can only rely on hear-say, my lecturer on the matter of Maori culture reports that this viewpoint of ‘Knowledge as tapu’ still predominates today and plays a very active role in educational institutions and particuarly in psychological research and servays. Before doing any research involving more than random-sample Maori we are required to gain permission from their Iwi to handle the information and to report on the analysis of this information.
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“Before doing any research involving more than random-sample Maori we are required to gain permission from their Iwi to handle the information and to report on the analysis of this information.”
Are you at a Maori educational institution then? Or is this a Pakeha rule about how Maori will be treated?
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Sam,
A very PC Pakeha institution. It is an ethics requirement inspired by ‘treaty considerations’ and ‘respect for maori ways’ in recognising the ‘nature of knowledge as tapu and to be protected’. Ergh.
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I agree with the “ergh”. So this requirement is a Pakeha thing, not a Maori one? Which makes your comment:
“in European culture, in most instances, is the concept that knowledge is ther efor the taking and all you have to do is seek”
seem a bit odd.
I’m aware Maori are sometimes wary about handing over knowledge to Pakeha institutions – having no control over where the knowledge will go and what purpose (including profit seeking) it will be put to. But this doesn’t mean Maori culture is currently trying to keep knowledge confined to an elite.
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Sam,
That is why I included the qualifier “in most instances”. This requirement is that of a predominantly Pakeha institution making large efforts to abide by Maori tikanga. This was developed, as I understand it, through consultation with Maori.
I was not saying that Maori are presently trying to withhold information but that it has traditionally been, and for many continues to be, an important part of Maori tikanga that knowledge is sacred and to be protected. Given that this, now way off topic, conversation started in discussion fo the adoption of Maori tikanga as a basis for state and law this traditional part of Maori tikanga is of relivance even if it was not presently practiced.
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OK – I just don’t see much reason to fear that a state based on Maori tikanga would be any more secretive or possesive about knowledge than one based on Pakeha tikanga. The Pakeha state hasn’t exactly been open and transparent, and modern Maori institutions don’t seem to want to lock up knowledge. So isn’t the issue of ‘tapu knowledge’ just a red herring?
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Sam,
To be honest I have forgotten exactly why I mentioned it in the first place. Rereading my statement I think my mention of this was more to do with me considering that part of Maori tikanga as being undesirable rather than actually making a point and that then got distracted via our conversation regarding that aspect of Maori tikanga. Esspecially given that I mention that I beleive the state would gradually adopt pragmatic approaches regardless of the tikanga from which it is informed.
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