by frog
Published in THE GAME by frog on Sat, July 18th, 2009
Tags: general debate
General Debate, July 18, 2009
Published: July 18, 2009
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Please use 
on the trolls and those who are unable to keep on topic
yah. Provide your reasons please. One would think...
We need Obama here:
http://tinyurl.com/kt65yc
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yes, it’s a good speech.
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Mean while accross town Joe “The Gaffe” Biden is telling Americans they are bankrupt and the only way to fix it is spend more money.
Everyone knows that the only way to get out of debt is to spend more.
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Something Labour and The Greens have also been advocating…
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anyone out there think ritalin is ‘good’ for children..?
http://whoar.co.nz/2009/big-pharma-bribes-doctors-to-hook-your-kids-on-drugs/
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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wasn’t john keys’ ‘the recession is over!’ comedy-routine hilarious..?
this is nearer the realities of what we all face..
http://whoar.co.nz/2009/a-dark-hole-of-democracy-how-the-fed-prints-money-out-of-thin-air/
be very afraid..
..what will happen to us..?
..when the american economy/house-of-cards has its’ final fall..?
..shouldn’t we be preparing for this (seeming) inevitability..?
..like..about now..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Fidel Castro emptied his prisons and along with winos and prostitutes (the ugly ones) gifted them all to the US… (hence Al Pacino ….Scarface). Bet Fidel and the boys had a good laugh no!?
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Apparently there used to be 2 1/2 people working for every beneficiary now it’s down to 1 1/2.
http://www.interest.co.nz/ratesblog/index.php/2009/07/17/economic-weat her-report-dependency-ratio-worsens-in-new-zealand/
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Statistics and lies 101.
Is there a counting of WFF tax credits (and Super) as benefit payments?
If one was to count what we used to do – pay UNIVERSALl family benefits and allow mortgage payment rebates, there were actually more beneficiaries in the past.
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He didint state how beneficiary is defined.
Is it people whom receive more tax than they pay? That seems the most sensible option to me.
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Does one include students receiving the student allowance? If so the younger the population and more people at university the higher the beneficiary ration (yet this is investment in a prosperous national economic future).
If a nation had pay as you earn social security savings for retirement, then the numbern of people on “benefits” is reduced substantially compared to a nation which has tax collected from wage earners and tax paid out to those over 65.
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Are all of the leaders of New Zealand’s political parties too gutless to publically support Dame Sian Elias’ comments about our penal system?
Nope.
Maori Party welcomes chief justice comments
The Maori Party has backed the call by Chief Justice Dame Sian Elias for public education and debate on justice and penal issues.
“We couldn’t agree with her more when she says the current system isn’t working, that prisons are a bottom of the cliff solution and we must take another approach to tackling crime,” Maori Party co-leader Tariana Turia said.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0907/S00197.htm
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Nope.
Time to put community safety before politics
The Green Party is calling on the Government to get serious about addressing crime and look at real solutions rather than implementing “getting tough” rhetoric that doesn’t work.
“Community safety needs to come first. The Government needs to implement polices that are effective in reducing crime rather than just chucking more people in jail,” said Metiria Turei, Green Party Law and Order spokesperson today.
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For another view, let’s listen to Simon Power’s response.
“The government makes the law on behalf of New Zealanders who elect them, judges take that law and apply it. That’s the end of the matter.”
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“The Green Party is calling on the Government to get serious about addressing crime and look at real solutions rather than implementing “getting tough” rhetoric that doesn’t work.”
And all the while undermining legitimate parental authority that will only result in more crime.
What do you propose greenfly?
Total state control of our lives from cradle to the grave?
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oh..look..!..shundas’s brought a ‘straw-man’..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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http://www.pnas.org/content/106/27/10933.full.pdf
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Shunda – isn’t ‘get tough’ on criminals an important part of state control?
Are you advocating for more of that?
The Dame, it seems to me, knows a thing or two and shouldn’t be treated as an inconsequential fool by the likes of Simon – ‘Last Name’s Gone to his Head’ Power.
Get tough rhetoric isn’t a real solution and the Greens are right to call for the Government to “get real”
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Shunda – I’m warming to your idea:
Total state control of our lives from cradle to the grave
This present government certainly seem to be adhering to that programme.
Loving the increase in powers for the police! Inspirational stuff from the Daddy-Statists. Tazer us up and down, we’re lovin’ it!
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Build a lot more container jails and bang more crims into them. Make the jails self-sufficient by having criminals work for their keep.
The more violent crims behind bars, the better. They cost the community far too much out on the streets.
Then stop them at source: welfare.
We’ve tried the socialist experiment. It has failed miserably. Time for something else.
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“Shunda – isn’t ‘get tough’ on criminals an important part of state control?
Are you advocating for more of that?”
So you have a problem in getting tough on criminals? These are people murdering and stealing we are talking about here greenfly not the new bunch of criminals the greens have invented (the ones that discipline their kids).
It is because of the lefts wet bus ticket approach that has led to many of the problems now.
I am all for restorative justice, but only if it works, and it doesn’t seem too very often.
What do we do with the people that don’t want to change greenfly?
Or do you think we should just legitimize a place in society for them?
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I encourage anyone here who cares about rainforests, and/or chocolate, to find out what Cadbury has done to its chocolate recently. It is now banned at the Auckland Zoo shop. There is a petition at
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/Remove-palm-oil-from-cadbury
The petition reads:
“Cadbury have long been a household favourite throughout New Zealand, even recently being voted NZ’s most trusted brand last. Unfortunately they rapidly dishonoured this title with the introduction of Palm Oil into their
…
Palm Oil is labelled as Vegetable Fat on their chocolate labels. It decreases the quality and pleasant taste of the chocolate, it is higher in saturated fat, and the Palm Oil industry is one of the leading causes of deforestation in Indonesia.
Orangutans are on the brink of extinction due to this industry. Both the Bornean and Sumatran subspecies will be extinct in 12 years unless the slash and burn of rainforests to create Palm Oil plantations is slowed. Countless other endangered plants, animals and local people are also suffering….”
There is more. Any comments?
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shunda – I suggest those interested in LawnOrder should read what Dame Sian Elias did say:
http://blog.labour.org.nz/index.php/2009/07/18/read-the-chief-justices-speech-before-you-judge-it/
and that they should regard Power’s response as indicative of this government and be wary thereof.
These are people murdering and stealing we are talking about here
Are we? Is that who the Chief Justice is talking about?
You do seem to favour the ‘wait til your father gets home’ style of government on the micro and macro level. John Key, Simon Power, Judith Collins and David Garret are the ‘big fellas with the sticks’ and you are happy to have them take control? Hmmmm…..
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BluePeter says:
We’ve tried the socialist experiment. It has failed miserably. Time for something else.
Perhaps you’ve heard the expression involving babies and bathwater Peter?
An adjustment to improve a system is far more do-able than a complete rejection. I think our Chief Justice is proposing that we discuss sensible adjustments and not knee-jerk our way down to the level that David Garret and his posse would have us subsist at (it’s a primal kind of place, dark, miserable and smells of blood and adrenaline).
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btw Shunda – the Garden Party will have a very strong LawnOrder policy. We are totally opposed to over-groomed sward and will fight for the right of every New Zealander to turf their turf if they so choose.
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Looks like I’ve bored everyone off the site.
Has the idea of compressed-air trains been discussed on Frogblog yet?
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Greenfly, what are you Lawn Order types going to do about all this bloody clover, getting in between the grass and mucking up the order of my lawn?
… and summer sprinkler restrictions and autumn leaves and everything else – how are we supposed to keep our lawns in order? and the damn takahes walking all over the lawn, just when I’ve gone to all that effort to make it well-ordered!
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Kahikatea (may I call you that?) I’m glad you asked and may I say how pleased I am to hear from someone like yourself who is so proactive and concerned about this important issue. I’m going to go right now and speak with my LawnOrder minister and present him with your concerns. BE ASSURED, your voice will be heard and answered before long. The Garden Party is New Zealands’s newest political instrument of change and seeks to cultivate grassroot action in the backyard of every Kiwi.
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Build a lot more container jails and bang more crims into them. Make the jails self-sufficient by having criminals work for their keep.
What, they should get work when honest fellas can’t find a job?
The more violent crims behind bars, the better.
Agreed…. How come the non-violent folks are in there. How come we have drug addicts in prison instead of in treatment?
Then stop them at source: welfare.
The relationship between being on welfare and being a criminal is a tenuous one BP. It could be a shared problem like drug addiction. More to the point, what are you planning to do about it? End it? Humanitarian considerations aside, is it really a good idea to increase inequality in an already very unequal society? Our GINI index is nothing to be proud of BP, so if you plan to do away with welfare you’re going to need to come up with another way to redistribute the wealth or the folks from whom you take the pittance provided now, will show you what a REAL crime problem looks like.
We’ve tried the socialist experiment. It has failed miserably.
I hadn’t noticed… the folks who get most of my money are Westpac, BNZ and a whole raft of others. I know you think you’ve been suffering under socialism, but it has really been a charade. The LabNats have never really been able to cope with actual egalitarian policies, and the banks would never let them be put in place.
Green policies on the other hand, would bring actual social justice forward and might well reduce crime.
respectfully
BJ
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I don’t get clover, wrong side of the hill. I get moss and mushrooms.
BJ
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>>I think our Chief Justice is proposing that we discuss sensible adjustments
And my idea of “sensible adjustment” is to lock up violent, repeat offenders for good. Takes too much time and effort to rehabilitate them, and most have no hope of doing so.
Next, take zero tolerance to violent crime. No huis. No meetings. No wet bus tickets. You’re doing time in a work gang. If you can’t turn up for that, you’re going to jail. If you can’t behave, you stay there.
Remove welfare. Restructure as insurance and savings. Those that fall through the cracks are micromanaged using vouchers (watch this space). Welfare is dependent on good behavior.
Devolve a lot of organizational power to Maori communities, along similar lines to US Indians SO LONG as they agree to abide by the same law and order and welfare criteria. Maori claim to have teh answers, so lets give ‘em a shot.
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>>Green policies on the other hand, would bring actual social justice forward
Glad you’re on 7%.
“There can be no test by which we can discover what is ‘socially unjust’ because there is no subject by which such an injustice can be committed, and there are no rules of individual conduct the observance of which in the market order would secure to the individuals and groups the position which as such (as distinguished from the procedure by which it is determined) would appear just to us. [Social justice] does not belong to the category of error but to that of nonsense, like the term `a moral stone’”
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“Social Justice: equitable distribution of resources to ensure that all have full opportunities for personal and social development”
Uh-huh. Communism, in other words. We tried it. Doesn’t work. You just get a nation of bludgers, totalitarianism and state corruption.
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Personally I liked the 3-strikes the way it was written earlier (how did that 5 year thing get in there) and I have put my view internally with the party as well.
That is however, not what the Chief Justice was discussing.
I am not going to argue against the restructuring of welfare. I think I know what you mean but I am not sure it is the same thing. I am not sure how it applies to people who for reasons of health cannot work, but I suspect it might be workable. I am far more interested in the management of the children of people who are in this position than of the people themselves.
Interesting take on the Maori. The US Indians have their reservations… the Maori population is more diffuse, better integrated with the society. Not arguing… just… thinking.
respectfully
BJ
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“Social Justice: equitable distribution of resources to ensure that all have full opportunities for personal and social development”
Uh-huh. Communism, in other words. We tried it. Doesn’t work. You just get a nation of bludgers, totalitarianism and state corruption.
Hardly.
Equitable is not the same as everyone gets the same no matter what they do. It means that people don’t get more than everyone else on the basis of who they are….
Pure communism was not equitable as people who worked harder and contributed more did not obtain any benefit. Pure capitalism is not equitable because if you aren’t born into wealth you have Buckley’s of getting an education or an even break from any part of the system.
The GINI is too high BP. It can be lower and we will be a better country for it…. and have less crime in the bargain.
respectfully
BJ
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(from the Garden Party’s LawnOrder spokesperson, Lorne Greene)
Dear Kahikatea
It sounds as though you are in the clover. This is a something our party encourages and wishes upon every New Zealander.
As to the problem you are experiencing with takahe, I suggest you use New Zealand’s most popular solution to lawn problems, the moa.
LG
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For those of you following the entry of the Garden Party into the political arena, I’m pleased to announce that the party is on the brink of releasing the first of its policies for Youth, the:
Student lawn policy
and a major platform that we will campaign on for the 2011 General Election:
Celery caps for all MPs.
The Garden Party gratefully acknowledges the enormous contribution and inspiration of our founder, Lord Spaden-Trowell and credit him with much of the mow-mentum we are now enjoying.
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OK, I will put my twopence worth here I don’t think getting tough on criminals works, that is a very shallow way of addressing the problems of crime.
BP wants to remove welfare, well what about those who are sick or invalid? pregnant women who have been raped? What are they going to do? Sell drugs? Or is it back to the poor-houses of ‘Little Dorrett” of Dickens’ infamey?
How are you going to provide a workable solution that will replace benifits?
that sort of thinking will only exasperate the situation.
“Social justice and equitable distribution of resources to ensure that all have full opportunities for personal and social development.’
I don’t have a problem with that, that isn’t necessarily communism since when did the NZ, British or Swedish welfare state confiscate land and the means of production off the middle class?
If working class kids are going to be denied quality education and apprenticeships because(1) their parents can’t afford it and(2) the Round Table, ACT and their cronies are not prepared to pay their share of tax then our future is heading for real trouble!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In reality our crime problem is a result of the far right agenda and I would go as far as to include the Labour Party in that category.
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>>well what about those who are sick or invalid?
Will receive a lot more than they do now via savings/insurance
>>pregnant women who have been raped?
Abortion, adoption, income insurance for child rearing
>>How are you going to provide a workable solution that will replace benifits?
Check out Freakonomics.
>>that sort of thinking will only exasperate the situation
No, it will solve most of our problems.
Or we could keep do what we’re doing. Which has failed – miserably.
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>>If working class kids are going to be denied quality education
I’m working class.
I’m lucky in that my mother read to me.
Costs nothing.
Requires personal responsibility.
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exacerbate
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bj; can you road test five of those mushy’s 4 me – any excitment and I’ll take ‘em off your hands
is there really such a thing as a ‘working class kid’ in NZ?
I mean – if it was India, I could understand – poke their eyes out and send them to beg for sympathy money – I think we just have schoolkids – notions of ‘class’ drop more regular than robespierres guillotine.
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the reason NZ will emerge from the phoney economic crisis is that our capital syatems are thoroughly underwritten by a healthy social support system – it’s why the yanks have disappeared thru the fiscal floor – no platform of social equality – shameful when you think of all the money their wars cost.
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Why did I hear a prisoner on Chris Laidlaws Sunday program say he has pleaded guilty so he can go back in for a “catch up” and that for him it is like “that tv program Cheers“. Isn’t this indicative of a system without teeth?
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The link is here
http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/national/ideas/2009/05/ideas
this guy came from a strict home but wanted to “muck about” he first went to a bad boys home but it wasn’t as bad “as you see on tv” but it “opened the door, it’s where people sharpen their tools”. There seems to be a different interpretation coming from Laidlaw and the judge from what “Chris” says and some of what I would take.
listen from 18:00
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Is there any relationship between the DPB and crime?
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“OK, I will put my twopence worth here I don’t think getting tough on criminals works, that is a very shallow way of addressing the problems of crime.”
The Japanese prisons have a low recidivist rate.
http://ukinjapan.fco.gov.uk/en/help-for-british-nationals/when-things-go-wrong/help-if-you-are-arrested/life-in-prison
I think one basic mistake is that we extend the same human rights to those on the inside as those on the outside, so prisoners here can talk to each other and they become “a place where people sharpen tools” (learn how to do it better next time). Just control the prisoners better and make it shorter and sharper and hence a deterrent.
We ought to look at everything but some of you are all sympathy for criminals.
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Years ago I went down Baja California at Mulege i saw a group of women wash their clothes in the stream and walk back with their clothes on their heads. They had a jail but no prisoners (it was crime free). Now it is a dangerous place due to drug gangs (I hear).
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I’m lucky in that my mother read to me.
Costs nothing.
Requires personal responsibility.
Requires an ability to read.
There are many who can’t.
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jh said:
I think one basic mistake is that we extend the same human rights to those on the inside as those on the outside, so prisoners here can talk to each other..
Cripes!!
Talk to each other!
Off with their heads!!!
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jh – the idea of human rights is that all alive humans have them.
But you’re getting onto my wavelength with your other hint. In my opinion, all prison sentences should be solitary confinement with no opportunities whatsover for people in jail to communicate with each other. It is the prison system we have today that promotes people who have commited a crime into criminals through a process of education and networking. In a very real sense, the cure is worse than the disease.
Solitary confinement is so harsh that you can then make the case the the punishment element of sentencing would make sentences shorter.
The only use for our community prisons is to house inmates who will never be returning to society.
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>>There are many who can’t.
So put down the ciggies, stop pumping the pokies and go learn.
Too hard? Don’t care enough?
Then why should I? Why should I support people who perpetuate the problem?
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has anyone heard how the pigs are getting on..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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d’ya think any green mp might ask that question..?..in parliament..?
it would be nice to see sue kedgley being as gung ho on this..
..as she was on folic acid..
phil(whoar.co.nz
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Peter – do you mean for those parents who can’t read to go to adult learning classes? The ones the Government just canned?
I see your point though. Why should you contribute to improving the adult literacy rate in New Zealand? It’s not your problem!
You can read!
Stupid dyslexics!
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I think that earthquake shook a wire loose in greenfly’s head.
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“Peter – do you mean for those parents who can’t read to go to adult learning classes? The ones the Government just canned?”
I don’t think they did “can” those ones did they?
More like introduction to digital photography and lead poisoning via stained glass making.
Schools can still run any adult classes they want , can’t they?
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Quite a quake, eh Shunda! Aftershocks again this morning. All wires secure though. Not so sure about gears, Gyro.
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Peter would have us believe that adults who can’t read to their children should go learn .
He also paints those parents as cigarette-smoking, pokie-pumpers who don’t care enough and find it too hard, to do what they couldn’t do as children: learn to read. His opinion on this matter seems hugely judgemental and narrow. It reads ‘classic Bluepeter’.
The one point he makes that I agree with is that those parents who can’t read to their children might find it ‘too hard’ to learn as an adult.
What do you reckon Shunda? Stupid, lazy wasters?
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btw Shunda – is digital photography not a valid way to earn a living and contribute to the economy of the country? I do alright from it!
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>>The ones the Government just canned?
Remind me what courses the government canned?
The reality is that some people just don’t care. Then I don’t either. Stop taking my money.
Oh, you want some money? Sure, but you’re going to have to work for it, and that means making sure your kids know how to read and write. Don’t know how to read and write yourself? Well, you’ve got some work to do.
You’ll thank me in the long run. Those porkies, and your misguided sense of entitlement, are getting you nowhere.
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porkies = pokies
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I agree greenfly, teaching adults to read is not a waste of money, but is this what National have canned?
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“Quite a quake, eh Shunda! Aftershocks again this morning. All wires secure though”
It sure was, must have been bad down south. It was a really strange motion round here.
It appears that most of the energy of the quake was projected out to the south west, so a lucky near miss!!
The Geo net site has some good info.
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I lept up to prevent my collection of personalised National Party coffee mugs (Bolger, Shipley et al) from crashing to the floor.
Anyone interested in buying them? They’re blue and white. Quite ugly. Fun to display. Confuses the enemy.
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We should make the poor uncomfortable and kick them out of poverty.
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Of Course Ben Franklin says it so much better.
“I am for doing good to the poor, but…I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed…that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.”
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>>the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.”
So, the starving peoples of Africa must have had huge dollops of help. We must cease foreign aid immediately!
On this insight, the best we can do to help our Pacific neighbours – or anyone else for that matter – to put poverty behind them is absoltely nothing. Go Ben!
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Then please explain Kjuv how US grain aid to africa helps them, when it destablizes local market prices and leaves the local farmers unable to sell there own produce for any money.
If instead of leaping out of your socialist skin Kjuv you actually sat down and tried to understand that quote maybe you would understand why socialism when applied to welfare always leads to dependancy.
Of course Africa would be a far better place if europeans had left it alone in the first place. Earning and learning are far more important for a people than some european do-gooders suffering from the christian mental disorder turning up and handing out goodies.
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“suffering from the christian mental disorder turning up and handing out goodies.”
You are absolutely on the button there turnip, there is no point in handouts.
A similar problem developed in Rewanda after the massacre where handouts of clothing from well meaning do gooders destroyed the local clothing and textile business. A hand up (helping to develop industry) is always better than a hand out.
South Korea is a shining example.
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turnip28 – was it some european do-gooders suffering from the christian mental disorder turning up and handing out goodies.
that created the situation now where starving Africans need assistance or was there much more to it?
If they aren’t starving as a result of aid, then your argument fails and your solution of stopping aid becomes invalid. Franklin may have been correct when he said’
leading or driving them out of it. is the solution, but you have to consider what you are leading or driving the starving to, especialy in this case. Your,
We should make the poor uncomfortable and kick them out of poverty.
should likewise be tempered with further thought and a goodly dollop of commonsense and compassion.
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Shunda – there is no point in handouts.
Loaves and fishes, my friend. Loaves and fishes.
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loaves and fishes just makes people dependent, as does any aid.
Dependancy is all you are going to create its what we have in NZ a continuing spiral into dependancy, don’t worry though greenfly it will end once the country is bankrupt.
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turnip28
Let’s say you have a glut of turnips. Sharing them out to others who have none will make them dependant upon you for turnips, turnip?
I think you are extrapolating wildly. Interim aid can be extremely valuable and a useful and valid tool for getting other economies up to speed with your own, should that be your aim.
Would you raise a friend who has tripped, or do you fear they will stay glued to your arm for all time?
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“Loaves and fishes, my friend. Loaves and fishes.”
That is one side of the story greenfly, you need to keep reading.
What Happened when Jesus confronted them on the reason for following him?
I’ll give you a tip, the only time Jesus heard from them again was when they were shouting “crucify!!”.
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“Would you raise a friend who has tripped, or do you fear they will stay glued to your arm for all time?”
In my experience you have to have the wisdom of Solomon to stop that glue from setting.
Then they usually start stabbing you in the back.
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So greenfly then give me an example of a single African nation that has been receiving aid for the last 50 years which is now on par with a 1st world economy.
Is it just that we didn’t give them enough money, why is that always the socialists anwser, oh the problem would just go away if we spent more money on it.
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I don’t answer,
‘oh, the problem would just go away if we spent more money on it.’
I’m more the ‘teach him how to fish’ kinda guy, or better still, don’t nick his fish (or his pond) in the first place.
Helping ‘that man’ to unravel the tangle he finds himself in requires careful thought and application of intelligent strategies. Cutting him free to sink or swim is reactive and heartless, in most cases, I would suggest. Showering him with coin would be equally pointless.
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Jesus Shunda!
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well then we are in agreement greenfly as the only help you can offer someone is education, anything else will turn him into a dependent. However most aid doesn’t take that form.
However you must be carefull what you teach him, as an example democracy a western concept has been a terrible thing for africa, since African countries are not nations but rather the left over colonies of western powers. Africa was and still is in many ways a tribalistic society it is very difficult to move from tribalism to democracy, one of the problems of “gifting” peoples free information, sometimes it is better to let them learn it themselves.
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Part of the problem in Africa is that corrupt western banks lent money to corrupt african dictators who borrowed the money in the name of their countries, spent it on themselves, then left their countries’ taxpayers to pay the interest. In most African countries, the interest they pay on these loans is actually more than they receive in foreign aid.
The debt should be cancelled, and if this leads to banks being unwilling to lend to corrupt dictatorships in the future, so much the better. The people would be better off without such loans.
On the subject of US food aid to Africa, the problem is that they give the aid in the form of actual food, undercutting the food suppliers and putting them out of business. If they took money to the places where people are starving and used it to buy food there, they would be supporting farmers and traders who were providing food there as well as helping the hungry people, and they would actually help to make the place less dependent on food aid in the future. The reason they don’t do it that way is because buying food off US farmers gets more votes in the senate than solving hunger in Africa.
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“I’m more the ‘teach him how to fish’ kinda guy, or better still, don’t nick his fish (or his pond) in the first place.”
Then what the hell are we arguing about!!
Are you just doing this for sport!
Now, if we can just agree on how to teach someone to fish…………………………
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turnip – yes, I’m wary of ‘teaching’ a person from another culture anything at all, however, there are agencies whose aim it is to help reconnect farmers, for example, with their traditional, appropriate technologies in order to restart food production. Sometimes a boost like that is sufficient to get the ball rolling. I do note, however, that even the best aid programme, be it educational or facilitatory, will cost money, an here a rich country can be of great assistance.
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Shunda – see above. Teaching someone how to fish might be unnecessary if they already know how, but if some other sod has filled in his pond… then there is potential to help.
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Now that NOSAC’s gone…
You’ve gotta check this one out, even if just for the incredible advertisement for asbestos (which is a real one from about 30 years ago).
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In Senegal they already know how to fish. The problem is that they can’t catch as many fish as they used to, because fishing boats from the European Union are coming in with bigger nets and getting all the fish.
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It’s adapt or die, kahikatea! No point in trying to moderate the actions of the European fishermen, that’s ideological intervention! Can’t have that! Go the Sharks!
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People can’t manage people.
I guess we need a savior
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I thought your philosophy was,
‘people can manage themselves’
Odd!
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greenfly Says:
July 19th, 2009 at 6:34 pm
> It’s adapt or die, kahikatea! No point in trying to moderate the actions of the European fishermen, that’s ideological intervention!
maybe they should adapt by becoming pirates, like the fishermen in Somalia did?
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Go the somalia pirates the west has been stealing from africa for the last 500 years even further if you include the roman empire.
Its about time the africans got some pay back.
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The Africans are having the land bought out from under them, by rich countries who know that land equals food and without that pairing, coupled with the ravages that climate change is bringing, your particular society is stuffed.
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I’m pleased my ‘flyer’ managed to provoke some (reasonably) worthwhile discussion
– apart from Turnip’s bout of ‘ad hominem’ of course 
. I don’t actually remember advocating blindly pouring money/aid to ostensibly help those who are obviously struggling to even survive – let alone enjoy a life of dignity and self-respect.
I agree that without foreign intervention and subsequent resource and people exploitation many societies would probably be better off. Hence it seems reasonable that those that gained from such practices should try in some real way to redress the imbalance.
Of course such ‘socialist’ thinking is based on the premise that all humans should have equal opportunitiy to meet their individual potential. Clearly this is a pipe dream for it demands that we have universal mutual respect coupled by a sharp move away from the current – and very imbedded – individualistic paradigm.
Still as the saying goes, ‘If you aim at the Moon, you will never hit a turnip’
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# Mark Says:
July 19th, 2009 at 6:42 am
the reason NZ will emerge from the phoney economic crisis is that our capital systems are thoroughly underwritten by a healthy social support system – it’s why the yanks have disappeared thru the fiscal floor – no platform of social equality – shameful when you think of all the money their wars cost.
……………
so why is our crime rate so high?
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# Mark Says:
July 19th, 2009 at 6:42 am
the reason NZ will emerge from the phoney economic crisis is that our capital systems are thoroughly underwritten by a healthy social support system – it’s why the yanks have disappeared thru the fiscal floor – no platform of social equality – shameful when you think of all the money their wars cost.
……………
The Pot calling the kettle black.
People in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.
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add to that head in sand.
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jh
The answer is we do not have social equality (under achievement in education and employment/business income for two ethnic minorities) – because we have not closed the gaps. We only have a social security floor and too many on it are of these two ethnic minorities.
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As for our healthy social support system that social security floor – we have public health and we have benefits (without time limits).
But those in poverty are those on these benefits because they have not kept up with food and power price inflation (the CPI basket understates the price rises in these two categories for those on low incomes) and because the child support component has even lagged behind the CPI (those on benefits being excluded from the focus on increasing child support tax credits via WFF – its In Work payment excludes families on benefits).
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“we have not closed the gaps”
our friend here has 7 kids and spends most of the time in prison. He goes back in (even pleading guilty when he’s innocent) for a “catch-up”
http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/national/ideas/2009/05/ideas
Maori make up 41.5% of people on the DPB and PI make up 10.1% (51.6% altogether) yet they make up 19% of NZ’s population
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DPB expose
http://www.uthink.co.nz/Lifestyle/no-more-dpb/111761.aspx
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Exposé? Looks like the same old right wing beneficiary bashing claptrap we’ve seen spewed forth by the likes of Lindsay Mitchell for years, jh.
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jh; I tend to agree with other’s comments re our Crime Rate.
In fact what we’re looking at is our ‘caught’ rate – the obvious crimes get solved – or foisted onto someone with a sheet….SPC nails it at 9.59pm I reckin.
Price controls are needed in NZ as Producers are taking advantage of our Social Security system and hiking costs to preserve their margins – very few business’ have to do this – the fact is though,, that they will, until it becomes illegal – tying prices to costs is the best way I feel – having done time in the marketing world I can assure you that profits on Some items are nothing short of obscene – yet it has the effect of pushing low income earners to the wall.
Not Fair. No. Not this year, Never.
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Haha Mark price controls.
while your are at it why don’t you fire up the old gulags as well.
If you bothered to listen then maybe you would understand inflation of the money supply and its downstream effects such as price increases.
Of cource the typical socialist can’t put 2 and 2 together and instead blames it all on the evil business owner.
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Turnip; Translating comment into Platitudes that exist only in your mind doesn’t bear responding to – gulags indeed – try the minumum wage and explain the difference to me.
Bothered to listen to who? – you I suppose.
We describe the same problem from different points – I though, have no great vitriol about it – merely describe the problems from tertiary to end user – are you an ‘evil business owner’ too?
Well I couldn’t much care as you seem to have lost the ball but continue kicking anyway….good luck with that – reckon you’ll find out who you are hurting one day.
Yep; Price Controls – something our Prime Minister should understand well – but he’ll be up against the kind of furious greed you display so well.
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New topic – at last Phil Goff has actually come up with a good idea. Well, half of a good idea.
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yeah toad..
this is what i thought about goffs gag-inducing exercise in humbug/hypocrisy..
..it’s sorta along the lines..’how feckin’ dare he..!’..
http://whoar.co.nz/2009/comment-whoarawwphil-goff-wants-the-gummint-to-help-the-suffering-unemployedhe-gets-this-weeks-crocodile-tears-awardand-its-only-mo
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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# toad Says:
July 20th, 2009 at 8:28 am
Exposé? Looks like the same old right wing beneficiary bashing claptrap we’ve seen spewed forth by the likes of Lindsay Mitchell for years, jh.
…………………..
For crying out loud Toad it happens to be true, Of course the person in the piece is hypothetical and unless you employ a private detective and invade their privacy (which would be against the bill of rights) you’ll rarely nail a real person in public.
Was there something about the article that wasn’t factual (in a PC sense)?
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So this is wrong Toad (and if it is I apologize)
in NZ we have the DPB, a benefit that you can get, with NO requirement that you need to even look for a job until your child turns 18 !!!, that’s right, you can collect a benefit care of the taxpayer for 18 years for no other reason that you have a kid but no partner !!!
And depending on how many kids you have and your accommodation costs etc, the DPB can range from $500 to $900 + per week IN THE HAND, whats the incentive for them to ever get a job when they would have to make at least $50k to $65k just to make the same after tax?
In NZ you now have the situation where a girl can get knocked up the duff and have a kid at 16, go on the EMA until she turns 18 and then onto the DPB.
She can then sit back and collect every week DPB, Accommodation Supplement, Family Tax Credit for however many rug rats you have and you can always get Child Disability Allowance if your child has almost any medical condition, TAS for other costs, Disability allowance for any “disability related expenses” for yourself and dont forget to bludge of the taxpayers for your education as well. Thats right, unlike all other students who need a student loan, if your on the DPB you can get Training Incentive Allowance, and this does NOT have to be paid back.
So if a woman wants a free Uni education, she and her partner just need to be “separated”, even if he is “boarding” as a “friend or flatmate only” in her house.
After a few years she can pump out a few more rug rats and its another 18 years until she needs to worry about getting a job. Of course by then she can say how “depressed” she is and go on the Sickness benefit before transferring to the Invalids Benefit and then she can retire on New Zealand Super having never paid any tax in her life.
And if you think this kind of thing doesn’t happen, think again and wake up. It does, there are entire family’s all bludging off the taxpayer for different reasons, generation after generation.
http://www.uthink.co.nz/Lifestyle/no-more-dpb/111761.aspx
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I shouldnna got married I shoulda got my wife up the duff rented my house out and moved in as the flatmate.
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>>challenging the Government to seriously consider temporarily paying the full unemployment benefit to workers laid off because of the downturn regardless of the income of their spouses.
Or they could have saved for a rainy day.
More and more dependence and borrowing from the left. The benefit should be for those who have no other means available. A safety net. Losing a job is not some bizarre act of God, it is “highly likely” for many people.
So why are they buying that extra wide-screen TV rather than insuring against the risk by saving? Oh, that’s right – other tax payers will bail them out.
They can go jump. They might learn a thing or two about why saving is a good idea.
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Yer, and I shoulda gotta Govt. house and let everyone else carry the can.
Forget Insurance as they forget me
and forgive me my shoplifting,
as I forgive those who burglarize my petty remainders.
Globalization means that NZ is not a bug on the bumper.
Someone’s financial chattel for sure – it’s why we should be utilizing our own resources (food and shelter) for our own good.
So Sorry.
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Hi phil u, I am looking at the SAFE site now – interesting stuff.
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You and me both JH… divorce is so damned expensive we would probably not break even in a decade, even if she did collect dpb.
BJ
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Here is a question for Owen McShane or anyone else in the know: what in your view is happening to NZ’s recycling and why? I have heard a few people over the years express some cynicism about it, saying recycling sometimes gets dumped at the landfill by contractors … I want to know more.
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Anthony Franz says an undercooked salmon salad gave him a 9-foot-tapeworm, and in August he sued the Chicago restaurant that served it to him.
If Franz’s tapeworm tale holds water – and the Chicago Sun-Times reports that the restaurant disputes his account – then it’s just one more data point to add to a growing urban tapeworm problem.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/60-second-science/post.cfm?id=are-urban-tapeworms-on-the-rise-2009-06-11&sc=SA_20090716
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PhilU
The Minister, David Carter, has urged the pig industry to respond to animal welfare concerns and in particular to phase out the use of sow crates.
Mr Carter told a Pork Industry Board conference on Monday that it cannot afford to ignore genuine consumer concerns about some pig farming practices.
http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/stories/2009/07/20/1245bc3cbd0f
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Don’t worry about phool greenflee as he has a severe case of the Dope Flu.
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d4j
I never worry about phil – he’s a giant killer, it’s you I fret for.
What’s your position on the pig issue? D4stall?
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Ah, back in the saddle at last.
Raise productivity? Sack some workers. Hahaha! Raise productivity? Lower wages. Hahaha. Raise productivity? Sack more workers! Hahahahaha! Raise productivity? Privatise. Hahahahaha!
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