by frog
Published in THE GAME by frog on Sat, July 4th, 2009
Tags: general debate
General Debate, July 4, 2009
Published: July 4, 2009
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Please use 
on the trolls and those who are unable to keep on topic
Here’s an article from Economist on why flying cars never took off:
http://www.economist.com/daily/columns/techview/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13974188&fsrc=nwl
interesting that in the 1960′s Pan Am was taking deposits for flights to the moon.
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Always on the lookout for a juicy oxymoron!
flying cars never took off
Thanks jh!
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It’s not an oxymoron – flying cars really didn’t take off, literally or figuratively. It’s a double entendre.
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kahikatea – hmmmm… I’m no grammarian but if they’ve not flown, they are not ‘flying cars’.
I’ll do some background research..in the background.
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some may find some (ahem!) ‘meat’ in this..
http://whoar.co.nz/2009/commentwhoarwot-george-bernard-shaw-said-we-should-do/
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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The US dollar however, is looking at the end-times.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601091&sid=aSx4wlTQzexM
I wonder what it is worth when it stops being necessary for international trade.
BJ
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“however, is looking at the end-times.”
I didn’t know you were religious BJ
, yes, the end is nigh.
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CORRUPTION ALERT CORRUPTION ALERT
MPs’ rich friend arrested at airport
Mr Jones overruled Internal Affairs advice that Liu – now Yan – did not meet character requirements and granted him citizenship.
Mr Jones, now the Opposition spokesman for economic development and the environment, last night declined to comment.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10582518
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Greenfly you are the oracle on flying. Oh multi-faceted one
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I think the new international currency should be BJ chips.
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David Farrar made a clanger on his Foreshore and Seabed topics: he thought he had solved the problem for National by claiming that the “beach isn’t the foreshore and seabed”… I can’t locate the post right now but other people will have seen it as someone pointed out that when they go to the beach, sometimes it is low tide and they have to walk quite a long way down to the water to dabble their toes in it!.
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samiam
Flying oracle? That’ll be the Delfly (relation)
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jh – Farrar should have known better – penguins regularly use that zone as they waddle to and fro.
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Does anyone else (other than me) have a problem with Sunday trading? I’m not even thinking about religious arguments against shopping on Sundays. Simply: why do we need to have the shops open 7 days a week? Sure, it is convenient being able to go and pick up a loaf of bread any day, but with very minor planning this was never a problem before Sunday trading.
We are fast becoming a society which is defined by our consumerism. I remember not long ago weekends were the time when you mowed the lawns, painted the house, played or watched sport, went to the beach, had barbeques or whatever. Now many people fill their weekend time up with going to the shopping mall. Is this the sort of society we want?
I can think of many more arguments against Sunday trading, but I was interested in seeing anyone else has issues with shops being open most the time?
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what can they mean? There’s flyin’ cars everywhere…..
samuiela – subjective; if you own a shop you’re gonna say
‘Hell if ah caint have Sundays orf I’m movin’ to China”…
Then your wage and salary earner only gets the kids on the weekends – and by the time they’ve got some sleep and the family together for entertainment, it’s Sunday and the shopkeepers are all off catching colds.
There are no winners, only ‘the drift’ which says we will have 24/7 trading hours cos the money’s there – the good news is it’ll devolve into all these kultural kaffee-klatzes…
Where we all get too much caffiene and sugar, and peer at each other like sad monkeys – when hash is legal I’ll leave my room…Amsterdam of the South Pacific – don’t knock it – we’ll have billion dollar cottage industries all over the Great Nation…
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And if Liu did make donations to Labour at a fundraising meeting,there is unlikely to be any official record because of Labour’s policy of simply lumping all the money together that is raised each night. While it makes the donation technically hard to prove,it also makes it technically hard for Labour to rule it out because of a lack of integrity in their fundraising methods. New Zealand Police already have a prosecu- tion underway of another former Labour cabinet minister,Taito Philip Field,into allegations that he received cheap tiling and painting from members of the Thai community in return for assisting their immigration applications. Police only launched their investigation of Field, however, after he refused to guarantee his vote in Parliament would continue to support Labour. An official government inquiry lasting months and costing a fortune was launched to ascertain whether,in fact,Field had received any donations of money or labour. Given the politicisation of the NZ Police headquarters,only a Serious Fraud Office investigation could possibly unravel the details of this latest citizenship scandal,one way or the other.
http://darrenrickard.blogspot.com/2008/10/ian-wishart-passport-scandal-two.html
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Well done Metiria – bringing up the Medpot bill on Q&A in such a positive way. Great to see you on their in any case.
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samiuela,
That has totally and absolutely nothing to do with retail outlets being open on a sunday.
It is lazyness on the individuals part to not partake in those activities. Closing shops is not going to make me paint the house any quicker.
Sheet home the reponsibility to the individual, not the retail sector.
For if society really believed that those activites we do, without visiting the shops, are more important than as a society we would not be in the shops. The retail sector would close down due to lack of customers.
While as a society we patronise the retail sector in a sunday, the shops will remain open.
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Samiuela
Given that I work… pretty hard most of the time, and we’ve one car which is used most of Saturday ferrying kids to ballet, soccer and such… I have exactly one day when I can buy ANYTHING I need. My wife buys groceries but I do not get to the shops except when they are closed, if Sunday is off limits.
I have had this experience before, and I really do not enjoy it.
respectfully
BJ
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If the men and women incarcerated in our prisons can’t see the stars at night, how the hell are they going to get a true idea of their true place in the universe and how about those of us who don’t bother to look?
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If those men and women did not commit crime they would be free to seek inspiration from the stars.
Till they stop commiting crime, I really dont care if they never see stars again or are able to get inspiration from them.
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from www republican co nz
I have posted below the text of a public statement by the Green Party of Aotearoa on the events in Iran:
Quote:
The New Zealand Parliament today joined other nations, including the United States, the United Kingdom and the European Union in supporting Iranian citizens calling for an impartial examination of their recent election.
Green Party MP Keith Locke’s Notice of Motion supporting the rights of Iranian citizens to peacefully protest was passed unanimously in the New Zealand Parliament just prior to Question Time.
The crackdown by Iranian police and militia groups who are loyal to the regime has seen widespread violence on the streets of Iran that has shocked the world.
“It is good to see our Parliament joining other nations in condemning the crackdown on the democratic movement in Iran,” said Green Party Foreign Affairs spokesperson Keith Locke.
“The shocking footage of a young female student, Neda Soltani, gunned down while peacefully attending a protest has brought home to everyone just how committed to a free and democratic society are those Iranians who continue to risk their lives protesting.
“New Zealand today sends those brave protestors a message that we support their call for a fair and impartial investigation of the recent Iranian presidential elections,” said Mr Locke.
Keith Locke’s Notice of Motion passed 24 June 2009 by the New Zealand Parliament:
That this House expresses its support for all Iranian citizens who strive for a free and democratic society; asks the Iranian government not to use force against peaceful demonstrators; calls for an end to government restrictions on the media; and supports an impartial examination of the recent Iranian election result in the light of widespread concerns.
Endquote.
The Green Party statement is a carefully worded, yet clear endorsement of the Iranian opposition. It seems to accept uncritically the claim that Neda Soltani was gunned down by a “government sniper” (the first version) or a “government thug” (the current BBC version of events).
When young Halatau Naitoko, going about his legitimate business on the streets of Auckland, was shot by a government sniper, there were no protestations of outrage by the Green Party over the death of one of their own people, albeit in an apparent case of mistaken identity. Naitoko’s death was passed off as the unfortunate result of his being “in the wrong place at the wrong time”. Such a casual explanation would not, and should not, be accepted from the Iranian regime. But neither should the Green Party preempt the outcome of a proper enquiry into the Neda Soltani shooting claims. I suggest that they chose to stay silent in the case of Naitoko, in which the circumstances were pretty clear, and to speak out in the case of Soltani, in which the circumstances are quite murky, for reasons of political advantage.
The Green Party parliamentarians enthuse about “how committed to a free and democratic society” the Iranian protesters are, and praise them for their bravery. The bravery and commitment of the Iranian opposition to a “free society” is not in question. But the Green Party itself has shown no such commitment. Their parliamentarians cravenly succumbed to the state’s demand for an oath of allegiance to Queen Elizabeth, the hereditary monarch of the colonial power and Commander in Chief of the British military forces. The Green Party is therefore not in a position to bask in the reflected glory of those Iranians who display bravery and commitment to a “free and democratic society”.
The Green Party blames the violence in Iran on “The crackdown by Iranian police and militia groups who are loyal to the regime” without providing any evidence that the violence was in fact initiated by the police and the workers militia, the basij. It implies that the Iranian election was rigged, when there is a lack of evidence to support such allegations. Meanwhile the partisan western media declines to represent the position of the Iranian government and Iranian government websites have been blocked by “denial of service attacks”, leaving a vacuum of knowledge of the situation.
The Green Party would be better advised to look to its own situation, and ask why a monopolistic foreign controlled media is able to restrict the New Zealand public’s assess to real information about what is going on in Iran and elsewhere in the world, including New Zealand.
By condemning the “crackdown on the democratic movement” in Iran, the Green Party implies that it accepts the Iranian opposition’s claim that it does in fact constitute the democratic movement, and has the mandate of the people despite the official outcome of the election. In the circumstances that is an extraordinary rush to judgement.
I have been criticised for asking whether there is a link between the Green Party stand on Iran, and the fact that co-Leader Russell Norman is currently on a US State Department funded trip to Washington DC. While there is obviously no simple, direct or crude link, even the most cursory observation of Green Party politics indicates that the party is moving towards a rapprochement with the United States and Britain on the international scene, just as has been the case with the European Green parties, for example by giving implicit support to the presence of New Zealand troops in Afghanistan whom Green MP Keith Locke describes as “doing a good job”. The Green Party statement explicitly on Iran states that at the outset that the Green position is consistent with that of the “United States, the United Kingdom and the European Union”. This is not unexpected. The Green Party could never hope to find a stable political niche within the regime while it remained loyal to its anti-imperialist origins. But they will only be politically successful within the overall context of a failing system.
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Gerrit (warm hearted soul) said:
If those men and women did not commit crime they would be free to seek inspiration from the stars.
Y’gotta feel a little sorry for those who committed crimes at the ‘minor’ end of the ‘imprisonable’ scale though, don’t you? And for those unjustly imprisoned.
Till they stop commiting crime, I really dont care if they never see stars again or are able to get inspiration from them.
I guess that once they are inside the doors of the prison, they have ‘stopped committing crime’ and should be allowed access to the sight of the stars then Gerrit?
Hard, grey concrete and iron. Inspirational and spirit-lifting to some, I suppose, but I’d like to think that those who have lead leaden lives to the point where they find themselves imprisoned, would find opportunity to reflect upon something up-lifting, rather than something designed to cast then down even further.
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“The Green Party would be better advised to look to its own situation, and ask why a monopolistic foreign controlled media is able to restrict the New Zealand public’s assess to real information about what is going on in Iran and elsewhere in the world, including New Zealand.”
Geoff, if you didn’t notice it earlier, perhaps you might pay attention to the fact that the news media in IRAN is completely locked down and controlled by the state?
Would they be doing that if they had in fact, nothing to be hiding?
I don’t LIKE our news media, but blaming the Greens for this is a bit rich, even from you.
BJ
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Gerrit; How many Kiwi’s are breaking the Pot Law y’reckon.
I couldn’t say, much beyond they would number in the hundred thousand – jailing more people (the Nats stated policy) without adequate rehabilitation would be an unmitigated societal disaster.
The vetting process should allow your average Kiwi to visit Prisoners on a Volunteer basis. It’d open a few eyes, you bet!
They are kept apart as part of the cruelty of our Punishment Regime – though Rehabilitave breakthroughs have been made – I would prefer to see the Minister talking about this aspect (instead of ‘how many kiwis can we jail?)
Fly; couldn’t agree more – most of our prisoners have a ‘lost’ factor that they need to be fetched from. Your 10:27am Post could be written in stone.
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BJ,
I know what you mean. I do not get to the shops very often either for similar reasons to you, except for grocery shopping (a lot of which I do on a daily basis when I switch from the train to the bus on the way home). Additionally I have the problem that even if I go to the shops, there is a lack of a certain key ingredient required for shopping
The funny thing is that after a while one gets used to not shopping (except for the essentials), and personally I don’t find it a huge problem.
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Mark,
I have no idea, no more than I know how many are breaking the anti smacking law.
Greenfly,
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Gerrit – had you the power to decide
Which of these two choices would you offer prisoners:
Free access to television and a dvd library that includes as many violent films as any man might like to watch
or
time to spend under the night sky, looking at the stars.
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Greenfly,
Me suspects that the time under the night sky would be used less for watching the stars than commiting illigit activities much better facilitated by the darkness, even with masses of lighting and eyes. Surely a simple window will suffice.
Additionally, given that selection you might aswel offer a ‘none’ option as offering the star option is likely the same as offering a ‘none’ option for the majority of prisoners plus alot more pay for guards and alot more opportunity for illigit acts.
There are alot of degrees coming out of our prisions, alot of qualifications, psychologists even. When one is locked in a concrete cell for years I would imagine one needs very little inspiration to study for a source of income and something likely to decrease the sentence, even if on isint dedicated to making a change. Me thinks those whom do not take the opportunity have made their own bed and shown their resolve…
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Yeah I wasn’t being critrical – just interested in different points of view – as my social work often means dealing with young offenders.
Personally I find it hard to boot these teens down the road to Hopelessness.
And there is the matter of it for me; Is our system so bereft of possible redeeming features?
Given that we all carry the price of harmfull crime.
I’d be going for a Humane and Inclusive attitude – an attempt to begin Healing if you will.
Most of the serious crime I see in NZ seem, above all, needless.
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greenfly,
neither, they are there for punishment.
Provide eductional facilities as Sapient suggest so that they can turn their lives around on release. Absolutely yes.
Your choices are too narrow.
Might as well ask if they would like breakfast or a vista of the stars.
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Mark,
Youth are often given substantially lighter sentances than adults for the same crime so that they have more of an opportunity to turn their lifes around without compromising the punishment regime. Though I agree entirly that even those of an age where they can be sentanced as an adult and put in adult facilities whould be diverted to facilities based on fixing their problems and providing an environment to turn their life around. The young are simply more likely to do so. A mentor system could work well even to the early twenties, atleast I think so.
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Should*
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Gerrit – I think you are contradicting yourself. You say they are there for punishment, yet you support ‘educational facilities’ for the prisoners. How is that punishment? (Softy!)
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Gerrit – btw – you made no comment re: television and dvd access for prisoners. Do you regard that as punishment also?
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I would have a problem if we didn’t have Sunday trading; samuela, you need to simply look at how busy the supermarkets get on Maundy Thursday and Christmas Eve to see what your suggestion would do. Saturday is already the busiest trading day of the week for many shops; you would be making it even more busier.
I have spoken to people who were around before you had weekend trading, and all the stories I have heard were horror ones of mass queues on a Friday night as everyone tried to get their shopping done before the shops closed for the weekend.
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greenfly,
No no TV no DVD, UNLESS those priviledges have been earned.
Schooling and education for prisoners enables them to rehabilitate themselves.
See us from the “lock them up and throw away the key” brigade are not totally without empathy and compassion!
But prisoners have to take on the personal responsibilty to improve their live so that the chance of reoffending is nill.
Hence education but no “on demand” TV or DVD’s nor dreamy star light scenarios. Thiose are for when they are released to a life that fits in with societies laws.
Next silly question
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I have been criticised for asking whether there is a link between the Green Party stand on Iran, and the fact that co-Leader Russell Norman is currently on a US State Department funded trip to Washington DC.
I critcised Geoff for claiming that such a link existed, not for asking. Eventually he agreed that he shouldn’t do this, I assume as he had absolutely no evidence suggesting it was true. This all just happened this weekend, but I guess its not a version of events that Geoff finds convenient, so we get this spin instead.
While there is obviously no simple, direct or crude link,
I’m glad Geoff thinks this is obvious now. I couldn’t get him to say that earlier when he was claiming it as fact.
even the most cursory observation of Green Party politics indicates that the party is moving towards a rapprochement with the United States and Britain on the international scene,
That’s obvious to everyone, right?
just as has been the case with the European Green parties, for example by giving implicit support to the presence of New Zealand troops in Afghanistan whom Green MP Keith Locke describes as “doing a good job”.
Well that should clinch it for anyone that the Greens are selling out their policy in Afghanistan, unless of course you don’t cherry pick the quote like Geoff did. Keith said here http://www.greens.org.nz/node/20975:
Obviously a born again imperialist.
The Green Party statement explicitly on Iran states that at the outset that the Green position is consistent with that of the “United States, the United Kingdom and the European Union”.
I guess Geoff’s lesson here is that you can’t be truly anti-imperialist unless you disagree with everything ever said by the US et al.
This is not unexpected. The Green Party could never hope to find a stable political niche within the regime while it remained loyal to its anti-imperialist origins. But they will only be politically successful within the overall context of a failing system.
For all Geoff’s protesting about what others say, he has as much issue sticking to basic facts as anyone I’ve seen. I don’t know if he has a particular axe to grind with the Green Party, or if he is just generally loose with conjecture, though I suspect the latter.
Anyone wanting further insight to Geoff’s methods, have a look at our other on going joyful conversation here: http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/06/27/general-debate-june-27-2009/#comment-82652
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gerrit – so your heart is not entirely hardened. You’ll allow (kind of you) prisoners to engage in ‘book learnin’ while they are on the inside,
to improve their live so that the chance of reoffending is nill.
If you were to learn that eating fresh organic vegetables and fruit increased the prisoners ability to learn, further improving their lives so that the chance of reoffending is nill, would you ‘allow’ it?
(Clue: It does)
Further more, if you found that research showed that prisoners who studied astronomy, especially those undertaking real-time study of the stars did especially well, due to the insights experienced through their exposure to a natural macro-system like outer space, would you ‘allow’ nighttime classes to be held, if practical?
All of these suggestions, like to one I made originally, are intended to help ‘reform’ the prisoner so that he/she can re-enter society better able to function safely, constructively and well and avoid re-imprisonment.
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“Further more, if you found that research showed that prisoners who studied astronomy, especially those undertaking real-time study of the stars did especially well, due to the insights experienced through their exposure to a natural macro-system like outer space ”
That sounds interesting Mc fly, let them know there is a bigger world out there and change their world view.
I like it.
You could tell them about Jesus too greenfly
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If he is visible in the night sky and can be seen using a prison issue telescope Shunda, and given that Gerrit okays the plan, you might get your wish!
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>I would have a problem if we didn’t have Sunday trading;
Isn’t this in many ways related to the perceived necessity of the two income family? There are now comparatively few of us available to shop during the so-called business hours of Monday through Friday. And since many families try to use Saturday as a sports and recreation day, I guess they need to have Sunday as a shopping day.
Shopping availability for seven days a week is doubtlessly convenient – but at what cost? It is a mere enhancement of our ‘endless pursuit of useless things’. Just as we individually need a time for sleep and rest so too, it could be argued, we as a society need a time to refrain from shopping
Perhaps Sunday may one day once again become the Day for Window Shopping, the day in which money is ‘kept in the pocket’.
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According to the Happy Planet Index NZ is ranked 102, Ausralia 103. Costa Rica is No. 1
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/jul/04/costa-rica-happy-planet-index
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I don’t think that the cost is all that high; contrary to what some would have you believe, many of the people who work on Sundays are not full-timers and are instead students who work a couple of shifts a week.
In terms of the endless pursuit of useless things, well, it is a matter for debate – I don’t think that Sunday (or weekend trading for that matter) has caused this endless pursuit of useless things mindset in the population, it is part of a desire in humanity itself to “keep up with the Joneses”
Perceived necessity? It is a pretty real necessity for most modern families to have two incomes; paying off the typical mortgage these days consumes one income, and the family still need to eat, keep warm and do other things. I would suggest that it probably costs far more to run a household today than it would have in past times, and I am even only factoring in more basic things.
Have you not heard of late night Friday? The other thing is that large scale retailers are open later on weeknights and have been for many years – the days of everything shutting at 5pm are long gone, thank goodness.
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Guess Winston couldn’t resist the chance to exploit the racist underbelly of society by trotting out the sambo argument.
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Toad (taking the flack for metiria who has to tone down her anti pakeha rhetoric) says:
“Just when we seemed to be working towards a political consensus on the foreshore and seabed, out crawls Winston Peters from his self-imposed political exile:”
“just when the political parties are working towards a consensus”……
, the rest of the country is probably aghast. Act is all for private ownership knowing that poor Maori will have a price when offered enough by rich developers. The haters and wreckers enjoy hitting the white population around the head with the treaty while ignoring its extreme demands and impracticality (injustice).
“How do you construct a different world view when the mass majority of Maori activists I know have less than a quarter Maori in them and when I know so many Europeans who value the beach for, its shellfish, for its contact with nature and for their love of New Zealand being the way it is.”
Correct. Both Tariana Turie’s and margaret Mutu’s had parents born overseas and the others?
“Of course “they” are arguing about title. That is because title to the foreshore and seabed, or at least the right of hapū to go to Court to establish whether they have title to the foreshore and seabed, is what was extinguished by the Foreshore and Seabed Act. This is about property rights – pure and simple.”
Isn’t it the Green Party that wants us to honour the treaty as it stood in 1840 (when Maori were the overwhelming majority , prior to colonisation ) Ie the Maori version which quarantees tino rangitratanaga over rohe (as in it’s ours we can do what we like where we like when we like!). Did not Maori live where food sources were prevalent and access to the oceans was easy?
A FORESHORE PRIMER
Prepared by Te Hau Tikanga – The Maori Law Commission.
This Primer canvasses some of the questions being raised in the current debate about the foreshore and seabed. It is based upon common concerns expressed by Maori over a course of Crown action that has already been labelled a new confiscation and which raises serious constitutional issues about the true nature of the Treaty relationship.
* Is this debate a new issue?
No. Ever since 1840 Iwi and Hapu have claimed that the foreshore and seabed fall within the exercise of tino rangatiratanga because they are both part of the whenua. However the Crown has assumed that it has absolute ownership of it and there have been numerous Maori protests and court cases through the years.
So it’s a Treaty issue then?
It is clearly covered as a Treaty right in Article Two which acknowledges that Iwi and Hapu have “exclusive and undisturbed possession” of lands etc.
However the Treaty merely reaffirmed a right and authority which Maori had exercised for centuries before 1840.
* Why has the debate become so prominent only recently?
The Court of Appeal decided on June 26 that the eight Iwi in Marlborough could have their claim to their stretch of foreshore and seabed heard in the Maori Land Court.
* Was the case decided as a Treaty issue?
No. The Court considered the matter as a common law issue because English and colonial law had long ago decided that “aboriginal” or “customary rights and title” continued after the Crown had established a colony.
The Court decided that it was the job of the Maori Land Court to define what they were.
* Are these common law “customary rights and title” the same as those claimed by Iwi before 1840?
No. There are similarities but the major difference is that the extent and nature of the common law version is actually defined by the Crown which has also assumed a right to extinguish or remove them.
What may be called the tipuna or Maori law version was defined by Maori – thus for example only Nga Puhi could define their rights and title and certainly no other Iwi had any right to extinguish them.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO0307/S00029.htm
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Usually, everyone is happy about his exuberant largesse. But Glenn’s excursions into political donations, consisting of large gifts to the Labour Party and then New Zealand First, showed him politicians can be all too happy to bite the hand that feeds, chew on it, spit it out and complain about the taste.
Thus Glenn has become the off-stage star of the biggest political drama of the year, one that threatens to destroy Winston Peters’ political career, and at the same time fatally damage Labour’s election prospects. Until now he has communicated with the Parliamentary privileges committee via two letters, but on Tuesday the words will be made in the flesh. Glenn is expected to stand up and directly contradict Peters’ claim of having had no prior knowledge of the $100,000 donation Glenn made towards New Zealand First’s legal bills. It should be an interesting day.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sunday-star-times/features/616249
and what about the fund raising dinners at Jade Terrace restaurant in Manukau where $200,000 could be raised but Labour would lump it all together so they “couldn’t say who gave what”?
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10582518
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Sapient; Indeed i’ve seen this (what may be seen as) lenient approach work with young offenders – it is indeed the quality of reform that determines the chooser
Cheers Mark
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Mark,
.
Yup, it shoudint all be about punishment. Cost and benifit, cost and benefit
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So; I contact my iwi friend and we form the ten best Musical Acts out of our jails – ship ‘em to LA as Business Ventures.
They be hangin and bangin hehe
Come back rich or not at all – and they be damn greatfull to get back to
peacefull little old New Aotearoa!
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Mark,
Am reading a book at the moment entitled “Healing our History – The Challenge of the Treaty of Waitangi” as part of one of my papers. Im not so much in-synch with the whole romantic humanitatrian and neo-catholic perceptions of human rights and such but it is a highly interesting read and I would recommend it. Lots of references to Mason Durie too ive noticed.
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Sapient; Well I’ve long been thinking about a ‘Waitangi 2 ‘ Document we yet may write – things have changed so drastically, even in my short life; Though certainly i’ve drastically upgraded the local History Lessons since returning…
Don’t overlook Micheal King – a writer Graham Nilling gave me when I arrived, thenn the contemporary tales ‘Cork of War’ by Ray Grover.
The Treaty to me – is not something I’d even like to see thoroughly ratified, as I feel it perpetuares a separatism that is not me certainly.
I grew up alongside the son of a chief, as a euro, I already know the friends and family – we are inseperable….documents that don’t recognise this, go,imo, in the wrong direction. ie against the social flow (associated beakdowns, crackdowns and just general downs)
Didn’t mention the League Teams I’m entering into the Britons League. Some dam fine recruits in high security there!!!
honestly
Mark
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BJ “the news media in IRAN is completely locked down and controlled by the state?”
The situation is not that simple. There is more state regulation of the press in Iran than in New Zealand, but there is also a much broader range of political expression in Iran than is the case in New Zealand.
In New Zealand control of political expression is exercised by the foreign duopoly which has legal possession of virtually all the nation’s mass media. APN and Fairfax claim to exercise their almost absolute media power fairly, with propriety and in the national interest, and the state has learnt that far from being able to control the media, it must, in certain circumstances, learn to submit. Effectively, the state and the political classes in New Zealand have become entirely dependent upon the mass media organisation, and so the question of state control of the media simply does not arise. The real issue in New Zealand media control of the state, not state control of the media.
The situation in Iran is quite different. The ownership of the media is very fragmented. There are literally dozens of newspapers in Tehran alone, and all newspapers tend to have their own political line. Leaving aside the role of the state, the Iranian media is in a very healthy state. There is no western society that could even come close to the diversity and vibrance of the Iranian print media. But the state’s political power derives largely from social structures (populist, religious, and para-military) which are independent of the media. Consequently the Iranian state feels that it can exert some level of control over the media. And for ideological reasons it believes that it should exercise some control. But its efforts in that direction are largely ineffectual. There is simply no comparison with the highly effective forms of control over the media content which apply in more evolved free market states in the west.
In Britain, the preeminent broadcaster functions as an instrument of British foreign policy, at least with respect to Iran. The beeb’s Iranian activities are funded directly by the Foreign Office. Hence the BBC does not act as a news gathering and dissemination organisation per se. Its brief is to advance British foreign policy, and since British foreign policy is directly hostile to the existence of the Islamic Republic of Iran, the BBC’s coverage is inevitably biassed and lacking in objectivity.
I don’t need to go into how the function of the western media has been subverted by the Iraq war, and now standard, practice of “embedding” reporters with the western military, or how the whole relationship between the people, the media, and the state has changed in western society. The media no longer “mediates”. It has become not just a player, not just the fourth estate, but the dominant political force in western democracy. It dictates to politicians, and it dictates the political process, because the masses themselves (aside from perhaps 2% of the population) are not active political participants.
That is not the case in Iran, where, as recent events demonstrate, there is still mass involvement in politics, still a highly diverse range of print media, and where neither the state nor the media organisations on their own can control the political discourse.
Do I “blame the Greens” for this the degradation of the state and private media in the west to the point where they have surrendered the role of news gathering, analysis, and dissemination to become nothing more than propaganda instruments of the regime? Of course I don’t.
But I would have liked to see a little more circumspection from the Greens before they decided to line up with “the United States, the United Kingdom, and the European Union” by sticking their oar into the political process in Iran. They should not have rushed to judgement on the validity of the Iranian election and the death of Neda Soltani on the basis of what the BBC was saying.
Most of the Green Party leaders can remember the Gulf of Tonkin incident which was headlines in all our newspapers, which never happened, and whcih became the pretext for war with Vietnam. They can remember the My Lai massacre, which New Zealand newspapers only admitted to a year after the event, when further concealment became impossible. They can certainly remember the “weapons of mass destruction”, which never existed, and which provided the pretext for war with Iraq. They can remember the “Jessica Lynch” story which was contrived to demonise Iraqi medical professionals who had acted in accordance with the highest professional and humanitarian ethics.
I find it extraordinary that knowing what they know, the leaders of the Green Party of Aotearoa decided to line up with “the United States, the United Kingdom, and the European Union” in supporting a highly biassed, and arguably false version of the political crisis in Iran.
For that I do blame them.
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But its efforts in that direction are largely ineffectual.
You mean that the investigative reporters of the Newspapers that supported the opposition got to look into the balloting issue?
oops.
I take your meaning about press here not being controlled by government but not being by any means free. However, that is not the same as the Iranian press actually having the freedom to investigate and challenge the state apparatus… as the press (as you point out) could do here. In one condition there are two opposing forces that are to some extent equally matched, or would be if the government had concentrated on sticking to the truth, and in the other the imbalance favors the government.
Which government do I trust? None of them. So I prefer the media to be the whip hand if someone must, but I don’t disagree that they DO hold A whip in the USA. The financial sector has a bigger one.
The media no longer “mediates”. It has become not just a player, not just the fourth estate, but the dominant political force in western democracy. It dictates to politicians, and it dictates the political process…
needs to be reconciled with this better… I am not sure I understand your point here.
…to become nothing more than propaganda instruments of the regime?
Do you reckon that the Greens might have done so because they believed the reports that were coming out of Iran on every internet channel that was open to the Iranians and because we have a long experience with governments lying to us and we have also seen, recently, the government of the USA suffering with election fraud and contested elections? There is a LOT to keep in mind Geoff.
You are focusing on one aspect, and there is a fair amount of truth in what you say about the media, but there are some alternative explanations to “the leaders of the Green Party of Aotearoa decided to line up with “the United States, the United Kingdom, and the European Union”
We may be thinking of other examples to yours. Who DO you trust?
Note that in spite of the media being manipulated about Iraq, many Americans from the left knew that nothing was going to be found. The information was there. It was just not in the more popular press. Not in the headlines. You actually had to READ the New York Times or the LA Times, the stories were on page 5 and never in the headlines, but they were there.
BJ
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How urban can Houston become?
Big changes to our development code loom, but some worry flooding, parking and other problems will follow
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6502059.html
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Well, agree or not, and I mostly do, I just want to say how nice it is to see Geoff make a reasoned argument for a change on frogblog; one that doesn’t resort to making factual claims about people’s motivations where where only the loosest of circumstantial evidence exists. This allows a proper debate to occur on the real information presented, of which Geoff often has a lot. So thanks for that Geoff.
I find it extraordinary that knowing what they know, the leaders of the Green Party of Aotearoa decided to line up with “the United States, the United Kingdom, and the European Union” in supporting a highly biassed, and arguably false version of the political crisis in Iran.
Of course Keith didn’t claim there was vote fraud at the time, just called for an impartial investigation. Was that the position of the US et al? I thought they were taking a harder line, which would mean Keith hadn’t fell totally in line.
Its ironic though, because it was only the next day that jh started posting to ask why Keith didn’t immediately support the protesters. Could it be that Keith was trying to wait and see, knowing the history Geoff presents and wanting more info? I’ll guess that the violence a week or so later was one straw too far for Keith, who then felt he had to speak regardless of what the truth might be regarding the election itself.
A final observation is that since Keith gets it in the neck no matter what he does, you can understand why he might take little notice of either side
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