by frog
A question for the 86 MPs who voted against the Green Party’s medicinal marijuana bill last night: will you deny your husband/wife/mother/father/daughter/son effective pain relief if they have the misfortune to suffer a terminal illness or undergo chemotherapy?
A question for the 86 MPs who voted against the Green Party’s medicinal marijuana bill last night: do you accept that medical professionals – repeat medical professionals – confirm that marijuana provides effective pain relief for a variety of medical conditions with fewer side effects than other drugs?
A question for the 86 MPs who voted against the Green Party’s medicinal marijuana bill last night: if you trust our doctors to prescribe powerful pharmaceuticals in a responsible fashion, can you not trust them to prescribe marijuana?
A question for the 86 MPs who voted against the Green Party’s medicinal marijuana bill last night: do you know that medical marijuana laws have been successfully implemented in several countries around the world and the sky has not fallen?
A question for the 86 MPs who voted against the Green Party’s medicinal marijuana bill last night: where is your compassion?
Published in Health & Wellbeing by frog on Thu, July 2nd, 2009
Tags: compassion, green party, medical marijuana, new zealand
on the trolls and those who are unable to keep on topic
Idiotic. They should decriminalize most drugs, and tax them.
Bunch of Andertons….
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Question for the 35 MPs who voted in favour of this bill last night: Where will it stop? The next step after legalising Medical Marijuana is the full legalisation of Marijuana. Then, after the full legalisation of Marijuana, then there will no doubt be a push to legalise Cocaine, Ampthetamines and so on.
We shouldn’t be legalising, we should be cracking down – cracking down on the manufacturers and distributors of drugs while getting those who are addicted to drugs into rehabilitation programmes to get them unaddicted. We should be giving real sentences to the manufacturers and distributors and not just slaps with wet bus tickets.
Like or Dislike:
0 
1 (-1)
dude
Marijuana does not reduce pain,
the substance is psycho active,
it induces euphoria then pain,
what do you think about the end of Green votes with that new foreshore Bill fwwog,
Like or Dislike:
0 
1 (-1)
john ston..’cracking down’ has really worked well untill now..eh..?
(given we are the number one consumers of weed..in the world..)
and really john ston..i am assuming here that you did not know that portugal has decriminalised all drugs..?
(yes..including heroin and cocaine..)
..and they treat drug consumption as a health issue..
..not a ‘lock ‘em up!’ issue..
(and hey..!..burglaries/crime-stats have ‘evaporated’..)
..here is an article from that radical leftwing rag..time magazine..
..that examines the successes of portugals decriminalisation of all drugs..
http://whoar.co.nz/2009/time-magazine-examines-success-of-drug-decrimi nalization-in-portugal/
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
how can we get a list of who voted how..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Bunch of Andertons
Question for john-ston:
Did you not hear the result? It stopped right there.
Love your reasoning though john-ston – now that it’s legal to sell medicines that are based on opium derivatives, the next step is full legalization of opium. What a powerful set of intra-ear cells you are playing with john-ston!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Those who voted for the bill, according to my info:
Adern J; Beaumont C; Boscowen J; Bradford S; Burns B; Chadwick S; Chauval C; Cunliffe D; Delahunty C; Dyson R; Fenton D; Fitzsimons J;
Garrett D; Graham K; Hague K; Harawira H; Hide R; Hipkins C; Hodgson P; Kedley S; King A; Less Galloway I; Locke K; Mackey M; Moroney S; Norman R; Pillay L; Prasad R; Robertson G; Roy H; Sepuloni C; Street M; Turei M; Twyford P (apologies for any mistakes)
So 9 Greens, 1 Maori Party, 4 ACT and 20 Labour
Not too bad but room for improvement. I am taking up the offer from other MPs to develop another bill that will provide a different kind of framework for providing this medication.
Metiria
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Metiria said: I am taking up the offer…
Good.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
not one national mp..?
how ’sad’/reactionary is that..?
i reckon its’ time to ‘out’ the smokers in national..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
“Did you not hear the result? It stopped right there.”
And thank goodness for that.
“Love your reasoning though john-ston – now that it’s legal to sell medicines that are based on opium derivatives, the next step is full legalization of opium. What a powerful set of intra-ear cells you are playing with john-ston!”
If you look at a number of things that are legal in society that are morally reprehensible, it begins with a slight opening of the door, and then people constantly push for more and more items to be legalised. What would be a far better solution would be to prevent that slight opening from occurring in the first place.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
john ston:..i take it you didn’t read the time mag article on portugal..?
prefer to keep the mind tightly closed..?
at least that removes any imperative to reply to you then..?
..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
I might have read the Time Magazine article on Portugal, I will have to see. However, one country is insufficient to sway me; honestly, like I said, instead of pushing to legalise, we should be getting tough on the manufacturers and distributors of illegal drugs.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
um..!..the article is in the link i posted for you..
don’t you remember if you read it..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
John-ston, while you have good opinions regarding public transport I am afraid you don’t have a clue here. Surely you can have a better argument than “this is the thin end of the wedge”?
If that is your worry, then it’s easy to stop the wedge getting bigger – don’t pass anymore legislation. But it’s silly to vote against a piece of legislation because of a fear that it might be something else.
The only good argument against this piece of legislation is that changing the rules relating to accessing Sativex and subsidising it could potentially result in the same outcome without having the complications of “grow your own”. Yet I still think this was a well intentioned piece of legislation and I am sad that so many MPs voted against it.
Goff & Mallard both voted no. Disappointing.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
so john ston..
you are all for the gangs being funded by the blackmarket in dope..?
you are all for weed-buyers being exposed to ‘p’ and other nasties..by having to go to that blackmarket..?
and you would like to deny pain-relief for fellow new zealanders..?
..have you ever thought..that one day you .. or one of your children/loved ones..
..might ‘need’ it..?
..for pain-relief..?
would that change your mind/stance..?
do you think..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Did you emphasise the anti-emetic benefits of marijuana?
That would have grabbed the popular imagination more than pain killing because pain killing is not the problem for most people in hospital but nausea is a problem with so much chemotherapy and is not only unpleasant but stops the absorption of the drug.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
so much of the sativex-yes/weed-no..arguments/excuses..
..just rees of the medical profession/drug companies continuing their control over their monopolies/’patches’..
..no money to be made for them..
..from allowing sufferers to ‘grow their own’..eh..?
..better they be allowed to continue ‘milking’ us..
..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
read ‘rees’..as reek..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Has there yet been a conscience vote that National hasn’t bloc voted on? Where is their conscience?
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
does anyone know if the National MPs were whipped to vote against it? I would have thought that at least Lockwood Smith would have voted ‘yes’ in a free vote.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
is that why he smiles all the time..?
..and he is speaker now..
..so..gets no vote..
phil9whoar.co.nz)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
OK so it’s obvious that National MPs can’t use their consciences, but it’s interesting to see how Labour split – almost right down the middle:
Yes:
Jacinda Adern
Carol Beaumont
Brendan Burns
Steven Chadwick
Charles Chauvel
David Cunliffe
Ruth Dyson
Darien Fenton
Christ Hipkins
Pete Hodgson
Annette King
Iain Lees Galloway
Moana Mackey
Sue Moroney
Lynne Pillay
Rajen Prasad
Ross Robertson
Carmel Sepuloni
Maryan Street
Phil Twyford
No:
Phil Goff
Rick Barker
Darren Hughes
Lianne Dalziel
David Parker
Chris Carter
Clayton Cosgrove
Trevor Mallard
George Hawkins
Damien O’Connor
Nanaia Mahuta
Parekura Horomia
Winnie Laban
Mita Ririnui
Ashraf Choudhary
Shane Jones
Su’a William Sio
Clare Curran
Kelvin Davis
Raymond Huo
Stuart Nash
Grant Robertson
This is from Metiria’s list above – although I do note that a couple of “yes” votes were wrongly given as “no” votes originally. This was raised in the house this afternoon.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Hi ya, It was Grant Robertson who voted for the bill, not Ross.
mx
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
That makes more sense Metiria. Feel free to edit my above post.
Idiot/Savant has a full list here: http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2009/07/medicinal-cannabis-vote.html
And the Dim Post does some great analysis here: http://dimpost.wordpress.com/2009/07/02/high-times/
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Metiria, can you point me in the direction of evidence that marijuana is a safe and effective medication for schizophrenia sufferers? I’m no expert on this matter, but I remain to be convinced.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
right..
..i want cunnliffe to roll goff..
..and darren hughes..eh..?
..(that’s his card marked..!..)
..and parker..?
..and mallard..?
(if i wasn’t on an ad hominem-break..i wd make a snide remark..that mallard )obviously) ‘needs’ pot..but i am..so i won’t..)
..and all the maori mp’s..(!)
was hone harawira the only maori mp to vote yes..?
..and shane jones has just compounded his popularity..
..(and ’stuart nash’..?..someone i.q-test that man..!..(oops..!..)
b.t.w..how did shearer vote..?
..he dosen’t seem to be on the list..
phil(whoar.co.nz
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
here is the evidence you seek..darroch..
http://whoar.co.nz/2007/the-new-batch-of-lies-that-are-told-about-cann abisthe-current-big-one-being-trotted-outis-how-cannabis-is-now-20-25- times-stronger-than-it-used-to-be/
here is a relevant quote:..
“..On the question of psychosis, the advisory council was clear.
Cannabis use may worsen the symptoms of schizophrenia..and lead to a relapse in some patients.
But on causation, it said: “The evidence suggests, at worst, that using cannabis increases the lifetime risk of developing schizophrenia by 1 per cent.”
It added that more than three million people were estimated to have used cannabis in the previous year..
..but “very few will ever develop this distressing and disabling condition..”.
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
i have more if you need it..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
I was surprised by Darren Hughes’ vote too. He seemed to fit into the “young liberals” group I thought. Same with Clare Curran & Stuart Nash.
Have a go at them here Phil:http://blog.labour.org.nz/
But lay off the ellipses.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
how come shearer is on no list..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
nah jarbury..
you have be a member of ‘grassroots-labour’ to comment there..
i don’t qualify..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Phil, I’m not a member of grass-roots Labour.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
p…h…i…l, I’m aware of that research. I’m asking about the different matter of marijuana being used as a prescribable /treatment/ for schizophrenia, which is what the bill seeks to allow.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
do you have acat..?..darroch..?
http://whoar.co.nz/2008/cats-can-give-children-schitzophrenia/
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
and of course..
as for treatments for schitzophrenia..?
oestrogen seems to work..
http://whoar.co.nz/2008/oestrogen-helps-relieve-the-symptoms-of-schitz ophrenia/
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
George
The evidence is mixed on it. The most telling bit found was that there is a gene-linked issue for people who have two COMT-something recessives the vulnerability skyrockets and for everyone else it is not distinguishable from zero.
http://www.schizophrenia.com/sznews/archives/001559.html
I have not seen any credible evidence that it is an effective treatment.
Use by adolescents appears to be contra-indicated as well.
None of which is appropriate for actual lawmaking relating to medical uses. That isn’t up to Parliament, it is up to the MD. Damned idiots playing at god, doctor and scientist.
Interesting that Nats voted as a block on this.
They are dumber than I thought.
BJ
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Let me make that clear.
If a patient goes to a doctor and the doctor prescribes standing on his head and scratching his left ear with a hammer, it is no business of parliament. If the medical malpractice laws and the medical review boards don’t get his license, its legal. If it works, he gets a Nobel prize – but I want a cut, I invented it
If the MD prescribes Heroin, I have no problem with it. If the MD prescribes amphetamines, I have no problem with it. The point is that Parliament is not a bunch of medical experts and it isn’t filled with competent scientists. It is, fundamentally, NONE OF THEIR DAMNED BUSINESS what treatments are permitted. They have a voice when it comes to funding things, but THAT goes through pharmac in any case.
respectfully
BJ
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
I think jonston has a point that I made in the last blog , hit the dealers of illicit dope.
Users are victims not criminals.
If medical marijuana works for people in pain in certain circumstances then why not?
Cheers
Grunt Drakula
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
this is new & fresh..
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/unlocked-the-secrets-of-schi zophrenia-1727987.html
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Interesting stuff phil, but I haven’t yet seen a viable case for it to be used as a treatment for schizophrenia. Probably it seemed that way when it was initially written, it has been a few years, and if we’d had a choice of striking that particular claim we should have taken it.
Water is now under the bridge, down the river, mixed with ocean and quite salty.
The question of why lawmakers are pretending to know medicine remains valid however. Where explicit law is called for, they provide waving arms… where they know next to nothing, they itemize.
Maybe something in the seat cushions is causing some sort of previously unidentified brain disease ?
respectfully
BJ
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Kia ora all,
While last night was obviously disappointing, because we didn’t get the result we wanted, we actually got more votes than I was anticipating. I also think it’s important that we retain a constructive approach to those who voted against – after all we need to persuade some of them to change their minds for next time.
When Lianne Dalziel spoke she made it clear that she supports the principle behind the Bill, but didn’t like the specific formulation of this particular Bill. Other “no” voters may well share this position, suggesting that some of those Labour people may well be winnable.
In some other cases “no” voters may have weak reasons for voting that way, that can be tackled next time. For example the reason advanced by Rahui Katene for opposing was about some of the negative health consequences of smoking, which is easily tackled on MedPot (as opposed to decriminalisation).
So we are further forward, in that we have a clearer sense of what will be required to garner more support. If we can also persuade the Nats to actually allow their members a conscience vote, things could be very interesting next time.
To those reading this who are hanging out for legal and affordable cannabis access to treat these health conditions, I’m sorry we couldn’t pull it off this time.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Drakula
The answer is NOT to go bonkers with enforcement. Let the people who want it have what they want. Heroin, speed.. whatever. Organize things so they can get it at a fair market price without the “enforcement overheads” or even subsidize it, and encourage them to get treatment when they decide they’re ready for it. Undercut the dealers so far that they can’t go lower without cutting their own throats.
This turns the addicts into obvious losers, puts the dealers out of business and sets the addicts into a dependency relationship with the state. They aren’t rebelling, the drugs don’t have any cachet of any sort. They’re CHEAP but you have to go to the state-run supplier. The quality is a constant. THE DEALERS DON’T HAVE MONEY! The whole thing loses steam. A couple of points.
1. Cannabis is NOT addictive. It is a matter of choice.
2. Information about it has been falsified since 1937, and every person who has tried it knows that more lies are told by enforcers than anyone else.
3. The long term plan for Cannabis would be that it gets categorized with Alcohol and is sold to adults. Not to kids, and not advertised.
0. ALL THIS IS IRRELEVANT TO WHETHER IT CAN/SHOULD BE PERMITTED AS A MEDICINE.
respectfully
BJ
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Thanks Kevin. You and Metiria made a couple of excellent speeches. I have asked on Red Alert (Labour’s blog) for those who voted no to let us know why they voted that way. Hopefully we get some answers – as Labour + Green + Maori Party + Act would be enough votes to get it through.
And wtf is with National bloc voting on conscience issues all the time? Can’t they think for themselves?
One last thing I’m curious about Kevin, couldn’t this issue be solved by just making Setavix cheaper and more easily accessible? That’s the only legitimate argument against the bill that I’ve heard, so interested in hearing what you have to say in response to that.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
One other thing.
The drugs will still become a “way of life” for some. They already do that, and cost society a lot more than they might otherwise. The principle of minimizing harm remains clear.
Pregnancy would have to become a consideration, and pregnancy while addicted would have to be avoided in some way.
BJ
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Sativex wouldn’t do it. For most users of chemo the nausea causes them to puke up the drug before it can take effect. It is really hard to hold down a pill when you are tossing all your other cookies. The other reason however, is the raw cost of the stuff.
Why pay good money to prevent someone from getting a buzz?
The suspicion that somewhere someone is enjoying themselves seems to motivate National more than anything else.
BJ
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Hoorah for cheaper cigarettes! While the thin edge of that insidious ‘medicinal cannabis’ bill was being blunted in the house, the real dealers of weed have played a clever hand, bringing down the price of their legal drug tobacco, making it more appealing to young people and New Zealanders on lower incomes. Peter Dunne will have hardly been able to sleep last night, double-euphoric as he will have been. All his Christmases have come at once!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
I’m getting angry people on my site claiming the Greens want to give medical marijuana to people with mental illness, is this or is this not true?
BUT even I was surprised to hear that there was a proposal in there for it to be available to people with Schizophrenia and depression ..WTF !!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
metiria will have to answer that for you bomber..
..she stated the schitzophrenia claim..
..but how could cannabis not help many..(not all) suffering from various grades of ‘depression’..?
(if you have more questions..can i suggest a search on whoar..under ‘medical marijuana’..?)
and while i have your attention..
how about trying to get some traction on this ‘beauty’..on yr site..?
..i’ve tried a couple of times..with no luck..
..it is ‘the story of the decade’..
..eh..?..
http://whoar.co.nz/2007/would-you-like-some-heart-disease-diabetes-and -schizophrenia-with-that-milk/
chrs..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
MrBomber
The bill was written several years ago… and a lot of the research that is relevant is more recently published.
What GREENS wanted to do was get it into committee and discuss the issue.
What should actually be in the law is not a list of illnesses for which certain medicines can be prescribed, but a general permission for MDs to use their judgment based on the best medical evidence available.
A reprise of the parliamentarians playing doctor debates is not going to do any damned good at all.
respectfully
BJ
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Bomber – one, maybe two, questioned the point and seemed not to know the context. Why the EXTRA BOLD reaction?
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
I tried going to your site but it seems to be a religious site without a blog or comments section. Is there a more direct link you can provide?
respectfully
BJ
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
bj or others who know..could the bill not have been up-dated before being presented, given that it was quite ‘old’? It seemed an overly complex and somewhat loose document. I can understand Metiria’s reluctance, but was there no way it could have been rendered water-tight, or rather idiot-proof? (goof-proof?)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Nationals stance on this is a utter disgrace.
Good on ACT.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
BJ,
The correct address is http://www.tumeke.blogspot.com/
He had a typo in blogspot.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Should whipping, as part of good conscience voting, be illegal in parliament?
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Cheers bjchip thank you for the clarification, I’ve posted it over at Tumeke. Phil you are always my hero, will check out your link.
Bomber’s Blog – the war against news starts tonight 9.15pm, sky 89 and freeveiew 21, from next week it will play 9.15pm Thursday nights, sky, freeview and Triangle.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
chrs..
..go well with the show..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Just responding on the Sativex issue (and taking as read the points people have made abut the limitations and drawbacks of Sativex). The process for funding a drug is a multi-step one. First of all the drug’s manufacturer has to get it approved to be prescribed in NZ (that’s an oversimplification of a potentially complicated set of steps), and sometimes manufacturers decide not to bother, because there is cost involved.
Then once a drug can be prescribed, the manufacturer has to apply to Pharmac for it to be listed on the pharmaceutical schedule, which means it is subsidised (by DHBs, via Pharmac).
The small victory we had earlier this year was in getting the Select Committee to agree to recommend completing the first step of this process, and opening the door for Pharmac consideration (plus we also got those other helpful comments in the Committee’s report).
Assuming Government follows through on the recommendations then Sativex’s manufacturer will have to decide whether to apply for subsidy (and of course there’s expense for them in putting together the application). Then Pharmac assesses the evidence of benefit against cost. The main measure used is the cost of each ‘Quality Adjusted Life Year’ (QALY), and Pharmac uses this to prioritise the different contenders for any ’spare’ money in the budget.
It would seem to me unlikely that Sativex will actually extend life, so its key benefit will be in improving quality of life, and there are various measures health economists use to assess this.
So we’re further along this track as well, but plenty more steps to go. And I guess the key point is that balancing benefits against costs and risks makes the natural product a pretty attractive way of achieving the medical benefits.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
good/powerful speech there the other night..kevin hague..
..(in suppport of med-pot)
phil(whoar.co.nz0
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Thanks Phil. Would have been great to have a longer time slot!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
this are the pathetic reasons advanced/excused by mallard..
..in defence of his voting no on med-pot..
“..Medicinal Marijuana Bill
Posted by Trevor Mallard on July 3rd, 2009
There was a threadjack on another posting asking for reasons for members positions on the Turei bill. I’m sure colleagues will have a variety of views and direct letters and/or emails is probably the best way to obtain their views. I didn’t speak on it but voted against it because it was extremely badly drafted..”
yes trevor..that is what the select committee is for..to tidy up failures in bill drafting..and the like..
..you know this..
don’t come the raw prawn..eh..?
“..I’m not opposed to having a debate on the issue but my view is that any debate would have been diverted towards the obvious faults in the draft rather than the principal of how medicinal marijuana can be prescribed now and whether that should be extended..”
so..possible ‘debate-diversion’..is your reason for playing medical-expert..
..and denying the proven pain/suffering of people who quite likely voted for you..?
would you like to think that through a bit further..?
“..The idea that we have a grow your own approach with the total lack of control implied or that it should be prescribed for a number of mental illnesses where it will exacerbate the problems is just silly..”
and there..you just show the ignorances of those who voluntarily voted no..
..(the ‘whipped’ natties..don’t count..they have craven abandonment of personal beliefs..from being ‘whipped’..as their ‘excuse’..
..you don’t even have that tattered flag to cling to..do you..?
“..It shows the importance of sharing draft bills before putting them in the ballot – such a wasted opportunity..”
and you end with a condescending/self-’justifying’..harumph..!..?
..you really do have a ‘nerve’..eh..?
..and of course..you are a pot-virgin..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
At least Trevor has given a reason for his decision. How about the 58 gutless National Party MPs who all towed the party line and voted as a block?
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Thanks for that info about sativex Kevin, very helpful
Actually BJ, sativex is not a pill but a spray and so could be very good for nausea. I think it would be a major advance to have it available (and subsidied) although it seems crazy to have to buy a spray from a pharmaceutical company when patients could just grow their own virtually for free.
Greenfly – once a bill is drawn it cannot be amended until select committee. The argument that people like what it is trying to do, but not some details (like whats on the list of specified illnesses) is IMO a way of avoiding the issue. Similarly with Lianne Dalziels comment about how the bill works. At least getting it to select committee could see if changes can be made, or if not it would be a public consultation about the shape of a future bill, Trevor Mallards comments are also flawed IMO. I never saw a members bill circulated to other parties before it was submitted to the ballet, only after it was drawn. Who has the time to fine comb a bill that has a 1 or 2 in 60 odd chance of being drawn?
btw my column on this is up at http://rasnandor.blogspot.com/2009/07/medical-marijuana-bill-defeat.ht ml
(sorry, can’t stop myself advertising)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
jarbury..you are making it very hard for me to hold to my ad hominem-free july..(and it’s so early in the month..)
so..the cleaned-up version..would be they would have appeared to put a mortgage on any claims of being the party/mp’s of ‘individual-freedom’..’political/personal integrity’
..in either thought..or action..
..for the forseeable future..
..a ‘national conscience-vote’..is the latest entrantin the oxymoron lexicon..
b.t.w..i’ve invited/taunted mallard to come here..
..if he does..
..show no mercy..!
..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
he dosen’t..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
“Not too bad but room for improvement. I am taking up the offer from other MPs to develop another bill that will provide a different kind of framework for providing this medication.
Metiria”
I think its very important this bill is redrafted and put back into the ballot with cross party support.
There were serious flaws in the bill (which I think could have been fixed in select committee) which need to be ironed out – its a good start though, at lease we know there are X amount of sympathetic MPs to the cause.
I think there needs to be a serious public information campaign on the matter however. I don’t think the greens appeared to be very serious about pushing the issue this year.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Thanks for all the further explanation on sativex – I guess in the end it’s very expensive, so for the benefit of the taxpayer and the person in need it makes more sense to allow people to grow a bit of their own cannabis.
I also don’t really buy the whole “the bill was poorly written” argument – if that’s the case then you can almost completely rewrite it at select committee stage.
Like, for example, the Super City legislation!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
imho THC is no replacement for opioids for serious pain – it is better used in small doses for a generalised pain condition – no good to me personally, but the fact it’s illegality means I can’t recommend it to elderly arthritic friends is just noofy.
The more common treatments for this kind of pain have serious and debilitating side effects that tend to render the sufferer sicker in the long run….we all pay the price for that…but the sufferer should always be the main consideration.
When I got home to NZ i found me Dad stumbling round with several chronic pain conditions and his doctor was poking panadol or something at him for it – these ruined his stomach.
Luckily I know enough physio – and before I’d unpacked the Duty Free, had cured two of his worst complaints with simple physical techniques.
Why that approach wasn’t available to him?
Terminal Slackness my friends.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Phil,
You might aswel go ahead with the ad-hominems, you have already broken your ad hominem free month on this thred through the comment
This question/insinuation clasifies as a ad hominem attack as the it places arguementive value on the implied lack of experience of the individual in this set of affairs and because of this attempts to diminish the arguementive worth of the statement/opinion.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
no sapient..it is an exercise to ask about/illuminate hypocrisy/double-standards..
..which on this issue..
..is ripe..
..and i first used the term when referring to all the (whipped) national party mp’s..
..many of whom would have voted against their personal experiences/beliefs..
..if you want ad hominem..?..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Thanks Nandor… I am too old. I still remember when they were trying to push pills into people and saying “See – It doesn’t help”, and I haven’t updated my information about it.
Cannabis is different by far from the opioids Mark, because it ISN’T addictive it is possible to use it long term, and the dangers of overdose and difficulties of self-administration are vastly different.
I have made the point before. No bill relating to drugs as medicine should try to play Doctor or Scientist. If the medical profession, informed by the research, decides that dried rutabagas can be useful in the treatment of hemorrhoids IT IS UP TO THEM to decide whether it is useful. It is not the place of the Parliament to second guess the science before the fact.
It is not even sane to try.
respectfully
BJ
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Sapient, I wouldn’t classify this as an ad-hom because it isn’t really insulting. When Phil is cooking he burns EVERYTHING in his path.
respectfully
BJ
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Phil – what on earth possessed to to declare an ad hominem-free month???
Ad hom is an art form, not to be viewed or reviewed lightly. Why burden yourself with the embargo? You are hurting no-one but yourself, and that’s the tragedy! The only up-side that I can see is that interest in Farrar’s blog will decline even further if you are not inflaming them while you are there – the site relies on the likes of you stirring their sluggish pot.
Yes Phil … some of us want ad hominem!
nandor – thanks for the info re: ammendments to a bill. While I certainly do agree that the best way foward would have been to progress it to the select committee, I still have an awkward feeling about some of the aspects of the original and the way they ‘didn’t fit’ with my imagined successful model of a bill that would pass muster. I recognise your sentiment when you say,
“Who has the time to fine comb a bill that has a 1 or 2 in 60 odd chance of being drawn?”
but am surprised to hear that. It does count, attention to detail, as things turned out. I also challenged Trevor Mallard on Red Alert, over his failure to support the movement of the bill to select committee, but it’s good to be able to argue on a rock-solid base, rather than a flakey one.
All that being as it is … I entirely support moving from this point toward a successful second presentation of a tighter bill, based on the excellent work that went into the first.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Phil, BJ,
I agree that phil does tend to chew through the vegan scraps of his opponents when hes on warpath. I supose it isint really that major of an ad hominem since it is not used as a piviotal part in the arguement but i would still consider it such due to the use of personal traits to degrade the arguement. It does not need to be insulting to be ad hominem, ad hominem is to attack the arguement by attacking the individual. ad hominem would be “he says we should increase welfare, but hes a labour supporter”, “he wants to free up land, but hes a property developer”, “he wants no cap on election spending, but hes a rich prick whom wants more say than others”, or “he thinks the world is unjust, but he is still young” .
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
bj – tried the rutabaga method but talk about invasive treatments!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Phil,
.
Ad hominem is not a valid form but it can still be a useful and relivant method. It is prehaps the best counter to the appeal to authority. Debatign would be much poorer without the properly applied ad hominem
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Sapient
I concede that technically it is an Ad-Hom. Coming from Phil I regard it as polite discourse. I LIKE him and he hammers me now and again anyway, just on general principles. Like I think… I think he’s trying to keep in practice and he knows I won’t break.
respectfully
BJ
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
i really think we need to be gathering more allies..
..the med-pot case has to be sold to the likes of country womens institute..rotary..greypower..
..this message should be relevant/commonsense to many of them..
..their/any opposition only comes from ignorance/the influences of scaremongering..
(c.f…associate health minister coleman:..’cannabis smoke is twenty times more dangerous than tobacco smoke..’
..and said with a straight face..
(as straight as one can be..when permanently looking down ones’ nose..
..at the lesser mortals clustered around.
..(that’s a fact/finely-tuned observation..not an ad hominem..)
we need to get these groups demanding some sanity on this issue..
..from these whipped/’scared’ members of parliament..
..(and i emphasise ‘the members’..)
fly..i was challenged to by one of the only relatively sane ones at kiwiblog..
..one reid..
..and i must admit..i am enjoying it..
..the non-rising..no matter the provocation/insult..
..is both empowering for me..
..and discombomulating for the poor confused luvvies hurling the insults..
..and more importantly..i am able to present the cold/hard facts of an argument/rejoinder..
..without the distractions of the heat and noise..
..you are right tho’..it is a form of entertainment..
..winding the dears up..)
so..after the gathering of the facts into a lucid/simple presentation..
..who should we get to talk to wimmins-institute/rotary et al..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
“jarbury..you are making it very hard for me to hold to my ad hominem-free july..”
And you are doing so well Phil, keep up the good work
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
BJ; Yep – in total agreement there. But the ‘Medical Conversation’ is all a bit limited for me – and we’ve ticked all these boxes before, and I respect your point of view.
I just think Decriminalization is the way to go because it will solve so many problems, including the benefits of Medicinal use.
It is probably also a more sensible, honest approach’
Then there is hemp oil for fuel, fibre for clothing – it’s a long list of possibilities as I’m sure you know.
We got a lot of Grape Farmers whistling dixie up in Hawke’s Bay at the moment.
Mr Key -it’s a good time to convert ‘em to a real beneficial Cash Crop, instead of letting them go broke ‘cos the booze market is flooded!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Mark his words! The Dixie-whistlin’ vinters! They’re primed and ready.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Why this medical marijuana thing? Is it a back-door approach?
Why not just constantly push decriminalize all of it? The Greens used to, didn’t they?
What happened?
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Peter asks: Why this medical marijuana thing?
Good question Peter! Why can’t sufferers of extreme pain be content with the opiates that are already on offer? Addiction is such a minor draw back. They should just accept their lot and the Greens should mind their own business! It must be that the Greens are pretending to care in order to get their ‘decriminilization foot’ in the door! Duplicitous Greens!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Cos Petey – not all our parliamentarians are free-range honest to god Green advocates like you.
Hi Fly – blackbirds landin? – or they still pickin up tweaks of Armageddon (a’hm a geddin outa here!)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Greenfly – sorry I didn’t make myself clear about fine combing a bill before it gets drawn. That is indeed the role of its proposer. What I meant was that sending it round MPs from other parties, as Mallard says Met should have done, is an absurd idea. The reason people don’t do it is that MP’s time is usually proportioned on a priority basis. Reading a member’s bill from another party before it is even drawn from the ballot is not a high priority and therefor won’t get done.
btw Mark – Hemp is already legal to grow (if licensed)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Hey Mark! Shed the flu? I’m clear. I’ve a question I’ve been itchin’ t’ ask ya!
Do have fantails around you? When they are chasing tiny insects (greenfly etc.) they emit a barely discernible ‘pip’ just before they snap their little beaks around their flying prey. Are they paralizing the insect? Fixing it in time and space? Seems to do the trick, whatever the purpose.
Peat cutting – it’s a time-worn employ of my tupuna no Orkney me Shetland hoki. Ah! The smell of a slab smouldering in the hearth!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Thanks Nandor. Absurd indeed. Will we succeed next time? Yes. Lesson learned. There is a lot of positive will evident.
Can you post out those licenses, or do we have to come visit?
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
haha. Apply to Medsafe. Although the absurdity here (don’t say you didn’t expect one) is that while hemp seed oil can be sold in NZ for human consumption, the rest of the seed cannot. Thats because we got an exemption for oil when ANSFA or FSAANZ or whatever it was at the time decided that allowing people to eat hemp seeds would be a bad idea – despite its high nutritional value – because it would send a confused message about cannabis.
Sound familiar?
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Rather than a Medical Marijuana bill, a Medical Drugs reform act should rewrite things so that the Medical and Science establishment can do what the CURRENT research says is best to do with regards to ANY drug.
That takes away the stigmata of mad dope fiend Greenies and allows the whole range of medical treatments to be pursued as the MDs find appropriate.
No specific drug or treatment or disease should be mentioned at all.
respectfully
BJ
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
BP
Because people are suffering now, as in today. This should be passable on strictly humanitarian lines because it is NOT about decriminalization.
BJ
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Nandor. You have constructed for yourself a unique position of respect and expertise – leadership in other words. Are you leading/ will you lead, the charge?( Shoulder to shoulder etc.) It is very encouraging to have you speaking here on the Frogblog. Pai rawa tou korero e hoa e pa ana ki ta tatou mahi.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Even Better BJ!!!
One Med Spec. I know in Oz (a psychotherapist) would love to work with lsd – whilst his papers are consumed by the Med community there with great enthusiasm, no one is willing to stick their big toe in the water – perhaps if Parliamentarians weren’t paid, but lived on electorally based donations (according their Value), we may see a genuine interest in the wants and needs of Ratepayers…..hee hee
Fly; Yep, shucked the Flu – clue;- don’t get any ’shots’ – map overlays suggest they encourage viral and bacterial disease – innoculation is imo very BAD thinking…
Yes have some divine fantails around, and I’m always tryin to keep ‘em.
I havent lived in the New Zealand bush, and haven’t studied the ecosystems therein – but yes, small birds use speed agility and sonic waves to ’short’ those tiny antennae insects so rely on.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
bj – agreed. Erase that particular pain. Keep the message clean.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Yes Mark! You can be relied upon!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Greenfly ! , just observing, I can’t be sure that fantails don’t squeak out of sheer joi de vivre. They are certainly agile enough to not need the sonic factor – mayhap it’s a defensive thing agin wasps etc.
One thing that does concern me is the proliferation of the indian Mynah Bird in NZ which has already dealt the death blow to several species in Australia – our Fantail may be in some danger I fear……if you find a copy of Bryce Courtenay’s excellent ‘Mattew Flinders Cat’ you’ll get a laugh and a look at this avian urban warfare.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
BluePeter Says:
July 3rd, 2009 at 5:10 pm
> Why this medical marijuana thing? Is it a back-door approach?
> Why not just constantly push decriminalize all of it? The Greens used to, didn’t they?
It is still Green Party policy to legalise marijuana (though not the commercial production or advertising of marijuana). But Green politicians have been working on the assumption that that policy is not likely to pass in the New Zealand parliament in the near future. Therefore it is worth proposing smaller reforms that do have a chance of passing. It would be wrong for people who need marijuana for medical purposes to have to wait until there is a majority in parliament willing to legalise it for recreational use. The Greens also once put forward a bill that would have decriminalised possession of marijuana but still left it as something people could be fined for, like a parking ticket. Again the assumption was that it’s better to push small changes that are likely to be accepted than big changes that are likely to be rejected.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
To make myself clear, I want all Marijuana decriminalized.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
>>better to push small changes that are likely to be accepted than big changes that are likely to be rejected.
Thanks
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Nandor: Just noticed your comment on the Legality of growing Hemp.! Where do I get the License from? Should be straight-forward hey?
regards
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Peter – how will the decriminilisation of marijuana make you clear?
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Whatever, Greenfly.
I’m with the Greens on this one.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Peter – home-grow for those over 18 as well?
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Yep. Why this drug is illegal is beyond me.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Peter – a suggestion I’ve heard – the American wood pulp/paper industry were threatened by the potential of the hemp plant’s wonderous fibre and set about demonising it. The cudgel was soon taken up by others .. and the rest is history.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Yes, I read that, too.
How dare they legislate what plants we can grow, eh.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Have been recently speaking to quite a liberal chap recently returned from working in northern California, where they have legalised medicinal use and basically turn a blind eye anyway.
He said it is the single biggest problem for the area, habitual dope use has turned many of them into paranoid zombies.
While he has enjoyed the weed on occasion he said NZ should definately not legalise it in any form.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Shunda barunda Says:
July 4th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
> Have been recently speaking to quite a liberal chap recently returned from working in northern California, where they have legalised medicinal use and basically turn a blind eye anyway.
> He said it is the single biggest problem for the area, habitual dope use has turned many of them into paranoid zombies.
that wouldn’t be a legitimate argument against legalising medical use – opiates turn you zombie-like, too.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
” opiates turn you zombie-like, too.”
And opiates are easy to come by?
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Paranoid zombies!
Your friend is suffering from reefer madness Shunda!
And, he ENJOYED it!
Don’t believe a word he says! Mind your back.
(Being a ‘liberal chap’ he probably doesn’t smack either!!
DOUBLE JEOPARDY!!!)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Papaver somniferum Shunda – you can sleep easy.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
So poppies are as easy as marriageoooarrrnaa to get wasted on?
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
well yr reps ‘d rather smoke it than risk the infamy of Voting for it – can you imagine – your file with Big SISter would get right out of hand.
smackins’ over Pete; – sorry Mate
Just it fucks ‘em up you know?
(“and opiates are legal?”) Yep you can grow enough californian poppy to enjoy life – let us know how it turns out
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
You must have seen “The Wizard of Oz”, Shunda (or did you fall asleep during the ‘approach to the Emerald City’ scene
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Shunda
The MD can prescribe an opiate. He is not allowed to prescribe Cannabis.
Which works better for quite a few things and isn’t addictive at all.
Your friend needs to remember this. They were growing pot in Northern California for decades before decriminalization. It isn’t paranoia if someone is really out to get you, and the growers developed a lot of habits that continue to this day. Since many of them were growing on public land trampers could accidentally stumble on a patch in the middle of the forest that was heavily defended. People got hurt.
Growing on gummint land is still a crime too.
The habits haven’t changed.
respectfully
BJ
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
# Shunda barunda Says:
July 4th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
” opiates turn you zombie-like, too.”
> And opiates are easy to come by?
If you’ve got serious enough pain to justify medical marijuana use, you will probably get prescribed opiates.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
“It isn’t paranoia if someone is really out to get you, and the growers developed a lot of habits that continue to this day.”
BJ we are talking about some really crazy people in this place, one comment was that most people were shroomed or stoned up to their eye balls, whole communities of people that can’t relate to the real world can’t be good.
It is only legal for medical use, but it is not really policed so everyone is growing the stuff.
I was quite nuetral on the subject until recently, I do think there are some good arguments for decriminalising dope, I just need more convincing.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
yes..but opiates are addictive..
..cannabis is not..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
# phil u Says:
July 4th, 2009 at 6:22 pm
> yes..but opiates are addictive..
> ..cannabis is not..
yes, there are a number of reasons why cannabis may be a better choice in certain circumstances. I was just trying to make the point that it will often come down to a choice between those two, because Shunda seemed to think it wouldn’t.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Shunda
The people who were using in Northern CA were that way long before the legal-illegal line was changed. Even the ones who don’t inhale, are into crystals and alternative reality… it is like reality never really quite reaches the place and it never ever did.
The other question is what other drugs are popular up there, the mescaline and LSD culture was always stronger there than anywhere else too.
It is a great place… I’d like it better it if the culture made sense to me, and there were any jobs for folks like me.
respectfully
BJ
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
i don’t agree it will be an either/or..
..marijuana would be used for a variety of physical/mental issues..
..whereas the opiates..mainly ‘cos of their addictive nature are the last choice..
..and used when the pain is too strong to be helped by cannabis..
..we really are talking apples and oranges here..
..or..opposite ends of a continuum..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
“It is a great place… I’d like it better it if the culture made sense to me, and there were any jobs for folks like me.”
Yeah it sounds like an interesting area, I would like to see those Redwood forests.
I would expect medicinal marijuana will become a reality at some point, it does seem kind of silly to make out a plant is “of the devil”.
Would it be possible to prescribe it and have official growers?
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Shunda said: I do think there are some good arguments for decriminalising dope, I just need more convincing.
Shunda – don’t take a passive approach where you require someone to ‘convince’ you of anything. Look at the issue, make your decision (sorry to have to tell you that.)
Be sure you are clear what it is that you are deciding on – medicinal use? decriminilisation? legalisation? opiates?
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Lettuce see, where else are opiates found? Another ‘devil weed’ uncovered!
Curses!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
“Shunda – don’t take a passive approach where you require someone to ‘convince’ you of anything. Look at the issue, make your decision (sorry to have to tell you that.)”
I guess I just don’t see it as a pressing issue, I admit, I need more information on the subject but lack the motivation (non weed related motivational disfunction)
It does seem silly that people can’t travel cause of a minor drug conviction.
And it seems like quite a useful plant for a number of things.
What can you make out of an average dope plant?
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
a smart suit!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
A George Bush effigy
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Most politicians stay away from marijuana, and won’t touch it with a bargepole.
You know why? Partly because the issue is one that’s politically dangerous. But also because the advocates of marijuana decriminalisation themselves are not people politicians want to talk to. They’re not politically strategic, they’re seen hectoring rather than reasonable, they muddy issues and often brush away the concerns MPs have. Go over and have a look at RedAlert, and see the concerns that MPs there have voiced.
I believe marijuana could be decriminalised in NZ within five years. If it was campaigned for properly. But at this rate we’ll be lucky to have it by 2040.
Oh and P…..h….i…eh!….l.co.nz, I don’t care what you have to say.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Bj has some very scary ideas about a state monopoly selling all drugs below the price of dealers!! I think that could be open to abuse.
In my last lifetime when I smoked dope, to be honest I used to crave it however I dont think it is a ‘gateway’ drug that the Andertonians would put it. Strange thing when I had a toke I would badly crave a cigarette as I was into that as well.
The reason it was made illegal in the states was Dupont who manufactures synthetic yarns wanted to kill the opposition used the pretext of hemp having the active ingredient THC. Nandor would know more about that than me.
George has a good point lets just stick to decriminalising it first so that kids who get busted don’t have to face blackmail and discriminatory job and visa rejections. Presented that way politicians would not be so gutless when dealing with the issue.
Cheers
Grunt Drak.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Drak? What was scary?…
I’ve been up and down this, it probably would work for most drugs… but marijuana wasn’t one of them. MJ gets special treatment… IT gets to be legal for adults and no-go for adolescents, but since it isn’t addictive or horribly deadly it gets sold by folks with a license to sell it to people who can prove how old they are…. and taxed, and all of that. I don’t understand the scary part.
BJ
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
“..Oh and P…..h….i…eh!….l.co.nz, I don’t care what you have to say..”
(ouch..!..and such hardness/bitterness in one so young..?..)
darroch..
..are you that pouty-lipped young green ..with sorta curly brown hair..who glares at me..if seeing me in public..?
just trying to put a face to the vitriol..
..eh..?
..’cos really..i don’t know you from a bar of soap..
(was it something i said..?..
..are you close to dick green..?..)
..and..um..!..it may seem a tad harsh..i know..
..but to be honest..i really couldn’t give much of a flying f…
..what you may think/say about what i may think/say..
..eh..?
..it’s just a big meh..!
..eh..?
(and..psstt!!..you are coming across as a tad petulant/thrashing about..eh..?..)
..but..you just keep fighting that good vegan fight..eh..?
..in your own (shhh!!!/quiet) way..
..eh..?
..better times ahead..!
..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
i am listening to beggars banquet..
(..with a triple-blend in tow..)
..good grief..!
..that is a tidy bunch of songs..
…mm!!!
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Dom Post published my letter today.
Interesting timing.
BJ
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
I suspect there were reasons why the bill was defeated as I cannot imagine sane people voting against something with medical benefits if only from the personal aspect of they may benefit themselves so perhaps effort into sorting this aspect out is required.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
bj – if you think that’s irritating, take a look at this!
http://www.stuff.co.nz/southland-times/opinion/chicane-cartoon/1259764 /Chicane-Cartoon
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
(click ‘next’)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Bj, have you read ‘Brave New World” by Aldous huxley?
It is about a world where all humans are born from test tubes patented and owned by a large corporation.
In this utopia there is no police force, no prisons and a very low level of violence.
That is because one of these corporations had invented a wonder drug called Soma. It is an addictive euphoriant in which that society is hooked up to.
One did ones hours of work then line up for their supply of soma those that commited any anti social behaviour would have their supply cut off.
What you are suggesting seems to be pointing in that direction in fact I think that is where we are heading.
Huxley describes a civilization that was very corrupt, base and vulgar especialy when he describes the promescuity of the pleasure domes.
People could express their wildest sexual desires because they were impotent. Fertility was controlled by a machine.
Some of you out there may be saying “bring it on”.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
“That is because one of these corporations had invented a wonder drug called Soma. It is an addictive euphoriant in which that society is hooked up to.”
Thc should be available for research and testing – be silly not to.
Yeah – religion o de masses mon. That Phils a funny one…
There are more than two alternatives – happiness is a quantity of sadness mirrored. Soma has too many names.
A wellness of being, that may, heaven forbid, escape all your long days.
The mind is a simple little motor.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
“Liquor is in many ways not special. Hundreds of products – matches, detergents, electricity, pharmaceuticals, motor vehicles and firearms, for example – cause problems if misused.”
Roger Kerr Business Round Table
http://www.interest.co.nz/ratesblog/index.php/2009/07/06/opinion-why-t he-berl-alcohol-report-should-not-have-passed-the-smell-test/#comment- 28415
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Yeah! Guns don’t Kill People. I Do….
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Good spotting jh. Sorry to hear about your tyres and letter box (Kerr must bear some of the blame)
I enjoyed this comment from him,
” Many of the social trends associated with liquor consumption have improved with liberalisation starting 20 years ago.
Guess he would like to see the laws around cannabis ‘liberalised’ then.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Medicinal Cannabis: Open letter to Paul Hutchison
Tuesday, 7 July 2009, 3:56 pm
Press Release: Scoop Feedback
Dear Hon Paul Hutchison
I have just got access to the Hansard document of the Medicinal Cannabis Bill which you and your party rejected.
I am the one who suffers from the rare condition known as Nail Patella Syndrome, it is something I have lived with my whole life being of the genetic nature and knowing how rare this condition is I am surprised that you made this statement ‘I had a prominent Wellington physician tonight point out how conditions like nail-patella syndrome are absolutely rare and there are many other options to treat it with.’ when every physician I have ever had examine me has never heard or seen this condition before, it is so rare in fact that one orthopedic surgeon who examined me about 3 years ago had it as an exam trick question in 1975 but has never seen a case until I came along.
SEARCH NZ JOBS
Info on insulation funding
Search New Zealand Business
I have participated in genetic research for Baltimore University in the US who managed to find 5 families in the world with this condition, even then they had trouble tracking that number down.
I question the reliability of the information provided by this prominent physician from Wellington and would like you to give him my details so he can contact me directly.
I have used painkillers, I have used anti inflammatory drugs and I have used anti depressants to block the pain and none have been effective enough to warrant continued use, also it scares me the side effects generated by these drugs and the chance of addiction is foremost in my mind. One of the drugs you would rather we took – Codeine has now given me something else to worry about, I now have reflux. The psychoactive effect of some of these drugs are not pleasant, some have left me fearing for my life, others have left my mind muddled and unable to work.
Cannabis was the drug medical users used before the pharmaceutical industry existed and it works very well for a number of different conditions, is it any wonder that people who use current pharmaceutical drugs who then find they aren’t doing the job they say they do turn to cannabis for solutions? Based on examples provided by the govt, you have made it quite clear that due to health reasons we are not allowed to use raw leaf to alleviate our symptoms and you would prefer that we use Sativex instead. The issue I have here is that Sativex is currently un-subsidised and approx. $900 a month has to be found to use it.
This is un-affordable to many including myself, I can buy an ounce of raw leaf for $350 that will last me 4 months!
If you really care about the health effects of raw leaf on the human body then I’m sure you will go out of your way to ensure a subside is applied to Sativex as soon as possible.
I have had knee surgery from the age of 8, all up I have had 6 knee operations to allow me to walk, my whole life has been one of pain and trying to find the right solutions to try and live a normal life.
I have a Femural Distal Osteotomy coming up shortly and I intend using raw leaf for my post operative care, I hope I am not arrested for using it in this form since it is still illegal which really doesn’t make sense considering a pharmaceutical version is legal.
Failure to try and make the healthier option cheaper will mean more and more medical users of cannabis will be persecuted, prosecuted, convicted and jailed because of your party’s inaction, please ensure these new container cells have wheelchair ramps.
Regards
Name withheld due to legalities of the topic
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Shunda: I get my opiates in boxes of 100 pills, that’s with 3 repeats to boot.
We are seen as responsible enough to have such large amounts of addictive substances yet we are now allowed to use a natual plant.
The problem is stigmatism of cannabis by govt and the media alike, but you never hear much about the deaths, addiction and side effects of pharmaceutical medications we can get by the boxful, we do hear about the Heath Ledgers and Michael Jacksons of this world but in reality there are thousands more that suffer from pills. You have to ask yourself why we don’t hear about these things, if you dig deep enough you will find big business own the media and control the information they are allowed to publish, usually these big businesses are also tied into the business of pharmaceuticals, and then it all starts to make sense….
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Block voting by National.
A poster on NORML says the reason they block voted was because of the potential uptake of the drug Sativex by the public that could blow out the pharmac budget, though due to their short sightedness they didn’t use logic in working out that if there is greater use of Sativex that other pain releif medication would decrease thus evening out said budget.
But then we already knew politicians weren’t very bright anyway.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
“usually these big businesses are also tied into the business of pharmaceuticals, and then it all starts to make sense…:
Fair comment. I think Consumer magazine exposed some of this stuff. The drugs companies do the rounds, dropping off pens with their brand names on and other little incentives to get doctors prescribing their products.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
MNGNZ, thanks for sharing your letter. It gives us much greater insight into where you’re coming from, which sounds pretty awful, so best of luck.
It strikes me that your story could play an important role when the next round happens. You could be one of the leaders we’ve talked about needing to find if you were prepared to go public. Its a very personal decision, of course, but something to consider.
Kia kaha.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
MrNiceGuyNZ – good luck with your up-coming op and evading trouble, including pain, there after. Very powerful letter.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Shunda: In the US doctors get visits sometimes twice weekly by sales reps, here some doctors say they get a stack of pamphlets that nearly reach the ceiling yearly, visits by sales reps are alittle less frequent to that of the US.
Valis: going public is impossible, I have a partner still in the public service and given the political nature of the topic, it wouldn’t do her any favours, I have to show respect there.
greenfly: there is a 50/50 chance it will deal to the pain for that knee, however the other one has nil cartilage and the first signs of arthritis are present. All the surgery I am having is but delaying the inevitable wheelchair.
Quality of life – all that we want, shame it doesn’t happen when you use pharmaceutical drugs currently available then we wouldn’t need to fight about certain drugs like we do.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
The letter above was sent to the National Party, The Greens and to the Labour Party, I am waiting for a reply from any of the above.
It is school holidays (oops I mean parliamentary term break) so will wait another week or two…
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
keep the pressure on..niceguy..
..you have got one hell of a lot of support out here..
..be in no doubt about that..
..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Artificial knees have a pretty good track record at this point. Not that you’d have FULL use, but a wheelchair isn’t a certainty, particularly if it is “just” the cartilage, if you can get to the operating room.
respectfully
BJ
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
bjchip: correct there are knee replacements but the issue here is it is two inferior materials are used to make up the joint – a metal ball coupled to surgical silicone that is glued to the bone, if you are extremely careful on one of these you can get 10 years out of it, then if you are very lucky another can be implanted, but the limit is twice then you end up in a wheelchair anyway.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Medicinal Cannabis: Who deserves aid more?
Monday, 13 July 2009, 4:05 pm
Press Release: Scoop Feedback
Who deserves aid more?
As we have seen on the news recently our Prime Minister – John Key enjoying his pacific island holiday with lots of smiles and dancing and busy pledging millions of taxpayers dollars to aid the pacific people, yet is unable to come to the aid of the sick people of New Zealand with the funding of Sativex.
Sativex is a pharmaceutical product derived from the cannabis plant, we are not allowed the natural plant because of health effects specified by his ministry yet we see on the news him partaking in a psychoactive substance called Kava and he did so enthusiastically as it appears it’s not his first try of this drug. His visit to Niue we see in the news him promoting a natural plant that has natural medicinal values that he wants to commercialise here in New Zealand called Noni which is all well and good for those who will benefit from this natural plant, but it smacks in the face of disbelief that his government has such double standards when it comes to Sativex, it simply makes no sense as to why he would partake in one psychoactive substance and promote a natural medicinal plant yet refuse to show interest in a pharmaceutical version of cannabis.
I ask John Key to front up on this issue and tell the New Zealand public why he denies the sick and disabled citizens of New Zealand an alternative medication that will be of benefit to them, why he would rather we were sent to jail for using the illegal substance cannabis, and most importantly why he holds such double standards?
All we feel like now is second class citizens in our own country.
Regards
Name withheld due to legalities of the topic
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO0907/S00123.htm
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Key on kava – that’s clever!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
greenfly: in the words of the PM himself – Hell yeah!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Not one comment or email from any politician, are they scared of me or what?
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
What was that thing last year about equal rights for those with disabilities, or was that more to do with just ticking the boxes…
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Do note that it can take quite a while to hear back from an MP and particularly when the House is in recess and they are away from their offices, like during the last two weeks.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)