by frog
It’s 65 years since D-Day, not that I’m counting.
Published in THE GAME by frog on Sat, June 6th, 2009
Tags: general debate
General Debate, June 6, 2009
Published: June 6, 2009
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Please use 
on the trolls and those who are unable to keep on topic
I’d say it’s fair enough to mark the most important day in amphibious (military) history.
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Yer, and one can always hope we never see another one
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Can you guess which MP definitely won’t be joining Sue Kedgley’s campaign to get rid of sow crates?
Clue: He’s animal lover big bro’s greatest hero! Still waiting for a comment from you bro.
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hey frog..!
..how about setting up a welfarist vs. abolitionist thread/discussion..?
http://whoar.co.nz/2009/meat-the-slavery-of-our-time-the-argument/
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Heh!
prehaps phil is just THAT imprinted in my mind as a useless bludger 
for a second there phil had me thinking hes was suggesting a debate about the benefit.
My first thought was: why would he want a debate where everyone is against his existance?
My second thought: wait, almost every thread here has something to do with the benefit.
My third thought: Oh, hes going on about animal welfare again! not worth reading!
Ironically, I then clicked on the side tab and opened this page. Prehaps it refects alitte sadly on me that it took me three thoughts to get to the correct one, though granted it was in a fraction of a second
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yes sapient..
..the abolitionist argument today…just as in the previous use/life of the term..
..did/does polarise/evince violent reactions..
..from those engaged in the slavery/institutional abuse of humans then..
..and the slavery/institutional abuse of animals now..
..q.e.d..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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frog..on may 12 th i asked this..
“..# phil u Says:
May 12th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
frog..cd u plse post a calendar of (upcoming!) mt albert bye-election ‘events’/meetings/debates..?
you have this forum to help with the campaign..
and letting ’supporters’..who aren’t necessarily privy to internal green party emails etc..’know’..
is something useful you could/should do..
eh..?
i mean..i am presuming here you want ‘good turnouts’..?
eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)..”
wha’ happened..?
..or as in this case..
..didn’t happen..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Yes, Phil. I personally fund, through purchase, the slavery and institutional “abuse” of animals. I eat their flesh, devour their unfertalized eggs, and consume their lactation. And I enjoy it. Not so much as I enjoy the slaughter of vegetables and fruit; but I enjoy it.
Im not so much a fan of the big chunk of bovine flesh with blood running all over the plate, but I have been known to consume whatever is put infront of me.
I wonder why the Sue K doesint bring up that fact that to humanley kill pigs we pump them full of chemicals, sometimes substantial amounts, which also effect the human system. Odd. Prehaps the first use of cost/benefit analysis in the animal movement?
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“..and the slavery/institutional abuse of animals now..:”
While I hate to admit it, I think I agree with phil u (OMG, I feel dirty!).
I tend to think the best way to gage whether farming practice or genetic engineering is moral, is whether or not the animal or plant in question has effectively become a slave to humanity.
Pigs locked in stalls seems like slavery to me, as does genetic engineering of plants to squeese every last drop of productivity, while ignoring sustainable management or development of the resource we have already got.
The future of food production must be based on sustainable land and resource use, there is no need to use slavery or genetic modification, other than to produce obscene profit margins.
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Nice Shunda! I don’t think we can enslave plants, but good stuff.
Will we never finish our other debate? http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/05/21/general-debate-may-21-2009/#comment-78415
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“I don’t think we can enslave plants, but good stuff.”
I think with plants it comes down more to having respect for what nature has given us. There is no need for genetic modification of current food crops, it is just a lazy way to avoid true sustainable practice and boost profit margins. In a way plants can become slaves to humans if we force plant life to serve our agenda rather than us accepting the limits of our environment and everything within it. It is just the same old forces of greed and impatience that stop us living in harmony with our environment.
“Will we never finish our other debate? http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/05/21/general-debate-may-21-2009/#comme nt-78415″
I am keen to continue that discussion, I haven’t been on the bloggs lately because of work and last weekend I was away picking olives, so this is the first day I have had free for a while, but even now I really should be out potting up plants.
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…At least shunda is honest about his irrational and religious posistion on the matter …
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“…At least shunda is honest about his irrational and religious posistion on the matter ”
How on earth did you get that?
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>> it comes down more to having respect for what nature has given us
Your plea that we should have a respect for nature (and please pardon the pun ) opens up a can of worms. To me ‘respect for something’ tends to imply ‘respect for something in its own right’ which in turn implies that ‘the something’ has ‘intrinsic value’. This line of reasoning moves us away from the prevailing anthropocentric world view. Your position could be best described as a ‘biocentric’ view as it seems you wish ethical rights to be conferred on both animals and plants (all ‘living’ things, including insects and microbes?).
So, in order to achieve the harmony with nature that you desire, what then is mankind’s place in all this biocentric ethics? Are we part of nature? If we are not part of nature, the implication would be that we would have to leave nature alone. And how are we to survive if we can’t ‘interfere’ at all with nature? Certainly farming animals and crop cultivation would be prohibited. And we can’t forget that, whether we like it or not, ‘nature’ interferes with our wellbeing (cf. swine ‘flu et al)
On the other hand, if we are part of the natural processes, surely any change that is brought about by humans should not in itself be wrong (or right). It’s just our contribution to the natural order of things!
Please don’t get me wrong. I fully support your position of respecting nature. I just think that more thought needs to be given to ‘Man’s place in nature’. Our responsibilities and entitlements, if you wish.
I also realise that your ’nature’ may be intended to be more encompassing: more than just things living but entire ecosystems, so that both biotic and abiotic processes/features are to be ‘respected’. Again the same questions can be put Especially: What is our place in an ecosystem? And, indeed does that question even make sense?
And just an aside (especially for Sapient): Technically, we are the subspecies Homo sapiens sapiens. Isn’t it great being the only species that gets to name all the species, so we can call ourselves ‘wise’ twice!”
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It changes quickly phil. Here’s a recent media advisory:
Dr Russel Norman’s upcoming Mt Albert electorate events
Green Party Co-Leader Dr Russel Norman has a number of events planned in his Mt Albert by-election campaign over the next few days.
Thursday 4 June
4pm–7.30pm – Dr Norman mans an election stall, outside Pumpkin Patch, Level 2, Westfield St Lukes mall.
8pm – Dr Norman takes part in a Plunket debate at St Martin’s Church Hall, 691 Sandringham Road, Mt Albert.
Friday 5 June
1pm – Dr Norman visits the Avondale Islamic Centre, 122 Blockhouse Bay Rd, Avondale.
2pm – Dr Norman takes part in a Mt Albert by-election candidates debate on Radio Live 100.6FM/702AM, 40 Arthur St, Ponsonby (go to http://www.radiolive.co.nz/Frequencies/tabid/91/Default.aspx for out-of-AK frequencies).
Saturday 6 June
10am-1pm – Dr Norman mans an election stall, outside Pumpkin Patch, Level 2, Westfield St Lukes mall.
2pm – Dr Norman speaks at the Tunnel or Nothing Community March at Alan Wood Reserve, off Hendon Ave opposite Olympus St, Mt Albert.
Sunday 7 June
9am – Dr Norman features on Q & A, TV One’s political show.
7pm-9pm – Dr Norman takes part in a Meet the Candidates evening, hosted by the Combined Churches (Ecumenical Group) of Mt Albert, at Mt Albert Baptist Church, 732 New North Rd.
Monday 8 June
11am – Dr Norman, and Metiria Turei visit Te Kura Kaupapa Maori O Nga Maungarongo, 140 Haverstock Rd, Mt Albert. The Green Party Co-Leaders will talk with kura staff about their concerns over a planned housing development’s affects on nearby Meola Creek.
5pm-6pm – Dr Norman take part in the leaders panel of the Environmental Defence Society’ Reform in Paradise: Threat or Opportunity? summit at SkyCity Convention Centre.
7pm-9pm – Dr Norman takes part in a PSA-sponsored Meet the Candidates event 7pm- 9pm on Monday at the Mt Albert Senior Citizens Hall- corner Wairere Ave and New North Rd, Mt Albert.
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nothing on Bain? What about the many others wrongfully imprisoned in NZ? It all seems to me a clear demonstration of why we need a Criminal Appeals Review Office, as Justice Thorpe recommended in his 2006 report into miscarriages of justice ( see “rasnandor.blogspot.com/2009/06/bain-found-not-guilty-how-about.html”). We shouldn’t need a Joe Karam for every case to see justice prevail.
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kjuv, I think respect for life and ecosystems should be central to an intelligent society.
This goes for both religious people and non religious.
Those of faith should respect life due to it being created by a superior intelligence, and those of a more naturalistic view should respect life due to the incredible struggle life has taken over the millions of years that evolutionary theory requires.
If we are aware that our use of life on this planet is becoming destructive we have a moral duty to change our ways.
Our intelligence as a species obviously makes us different to other life on the planet. We have the power to create or destroy and do both for reasons quite separate to the natural order of nature, so I don’t think we are any longer a natural part of the eco system in that sense.
Most animals know not to crap in their own nest, so how come humans can’t figure it out?
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>>nothing on Bain?
How anyone could believe Robin did it is simply beyond belief. Chilling.
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sapient said..
“…Yes, Phil. I personally fund, through purchase, the slavery and institutional “abuse” of animals..”
you got it in one..sapient..
..and thanks for that heads-up..frog..
..and nandor..
..how about the ‘wrongfully imprisoned’ animals..?
..gone vegan yet..?
..if not..why not..?
..oh..!..hello..!..btw..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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I don’t think Shunda has taken an irrational position. I believe it is actually VERY rational, but it is difficult to map the relationships and evolutionary dependencies that make it that way. The best explanation I have is to point out that competition IS cooperation in a lot of very important ways.
The predator depends on the prey and the prey depends on the predator. Neither population can remain stable without the other. Mucking about with the balances without understanding ALL of them first is one of the reasons we call Australia “Cactus Island”.
Which is to say, I am agreeing with Shunda here.
What man has brought with his inventiveness and introspection is the ability to step outside the normal evolutionary process and create what evolution not only DID not create but what it COULD not create. In that manner we can change the environment beyond the adaptive range of any creature larger than a bacteria.
Call it an awe of complexity or a reverence for nature, it is NOT a good idea to mess with systems like this. Taken too far of course, it is also a can of worms, as most philosophical positions are.
The reason it is not a good idea is that unless you are omniscient, infallible , omnipresent and all-powerful you are going to sooner or later make a mistake. Apocalypse is just a dropped decimal point in that environment.
Human beings have a place. Shunda might say that we should not try to take God’s place. I think he has a point, and I don’t believe in God (think about it). It is not a place we should try to take… we have to evolve towards it and if we as a species ultimately deserve it that is another thing entirely.
On current form we have a HELL of a long way to go.
Try the book “Earth” by David Brin. You too Shunda. It may give some pleasure (it is a good read) and it may give additional insight into why what Shunda is saying is likely to be correct.
respectfully
BJ
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..and as a link-whore of some note..
..all i can say is..
..you’ve been hawking it about a bit lately..
..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Well said Shunda.
respectfully
BJ
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and you are just talking about the genetic modification there..eh bj..?
..you aren’t addressing the animal issue..are you..?
..same question to you as to nandor..
..you have a (deserved) peputation here..bj..as one who ‘thinks’..
..i would be interested to hear your ‘thinking’ on the slavery/abuse/eating of animals..
..and hey..!..there has been a bit of a seachange in animal rights quarters lately..
..in that there has been a focussing of ideas..into a rebirth of the ‘abolitionist’ movement..
..and the more you look at the mores/economic pressures around the slavery/abuse/’ownership’ of humans..
..what is now done to animals..is a complete echo..
.and one aspect of the abolitionist movement i like/adhere to..
..from both there and now..
..is a clarity of thought/mission..
..in calling for/fighting for..
..the complete abolition of all animal slavery/abuse/exploitation..
..and as such…view the ‘welfarists’ with the same disdain accorded all the other animal abusers..
..y’see..the welfarists just want slightly larger cages/the option for their victims to live/play outside..
..(for a little while..)
..(this totally..of course..to assuage their own guilt..)
..and don’t give me any cr*p about ‘organic/free-range’..eh..?
..the normal life of a cow is twenty years..
..all male ‘free-range’ calves are turned into veal..
..and the free-range/organic cows are separated from their babies…
..so humans can have the milk they are due..
(have you ever heard calves/mothers after they have been separated..?
..they moan/cry/keen for each other..)
..oh..!..and that twenty-year life-span of those cows..?
..those ‘free-range’ cows you use/abuse..
..are flogged-out by five years old..
..so then they too..are killed..
..how any of you can take part in these foul/disgusting/cruel practices..
..and call yourself ‘greens’/carers for the environment..
..is frankly..
..gag-inducing..
..so..bj…
..have you gone vegan yet..?
..if not..
..why not..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
(btw..the’you’s in my ‘opinion’..are addressed to all..
..i am not singling you out..
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I’m impressed that D-Day features in your memory, Frog.
I’m hoping that’s because they taught you history, not for any personal connections to the facts …
Apparently, our NZDF LAV personnel transporters have been discovered to be pretty much useless for that kind of event, which is what they were originally purchased to do.
(in case of, eg:, uprisings in the pacific islands …)
Never have I protested against something where I was found to be so close to 100% right, so quickly … lolz.
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katie said..
“..Apparently, our NZDF LAV personnel transporters have been discovered to be pretty much useless for that kind of event, which is what they were originally purchased to do.
(in case of, eg:, uprisings in the pacific islands …)..”
no no katie..
..those vehicles were bought to use here..
..to suppress any ‘unrest’/uprisings here in new zealand..
..for which purpose..
..they are perfectly suited..
..i’ll bet you ten bucks to a pinch of army bullsh*t the plans are already drawn up…
..but of course they couldn’t tell us that..at the time of purchase..
..we may have demurred ..
..and yes..useless in the/any jungle..(our expected ‘fields of war’..)
..but perfect for fanging up and down our hghways and byeways..
..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Phil
I’ve proposed going vegetarian to my wife several times. She gives me “the look” and it isn’t the good one, and that’s about as far as it gets.
This is not apparently, the way to this Russian girl’s heart…. or to the Babushka’s for that matter.
Just so you understand. I am not able to do this because I am not “one guy by myself”. I am a family man, and I can’t make this decision unilaterally because I am not running that sort of family.
I am just imagining my kids who don’t eat the vegetables they DO get reacting to the news that that is all they WILL get… you really don’t know how much you ask.
Beating me up about it won’t work. I don’t care that much and would have already done it if it were JUST me… at least to a lacto-ovo degree. (I’m OK giving up the pepperoni but I really like the cheese on the pizza).
DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
respectfully
BJ
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Umm, no, Phil.
They’re permanently mothballed, I’ve only ever seen one in motion at a Defence Forces PR event on the waterfront, outside Te Papa (in 2005); and I’ve only seen a stationary one at a secondary schools careers event, where even teenagers climbing in and out of them remarked on how clumsy they were to move around inside.
They were a bungled hardware order, and have no real use here – sending some from Linton to Napier to ‘back up’ the AOS during the Molenaar stakeout was a total waste of time, and ultimately embarrassing for the regional Police manager in Napier … while the Police waited, nothing was done in the situation at hand, when simple measures could have removed trapped residents safely.
I have been caught inside an armed offenders lockdown, many years ago in Johnsonville, when a guy went nuts with a cross-bow: no gunshot sounds, just bodies being brought out with holes in them.
We were closer to the action than the Evening Post reporter, and got better photographs, with my then fiancé leaning out our living room windows to take them, at the behest of his mother, a journalist employed by INL in Wellington. Police asked us not to leave our flat, but never stopped us from taking pictures, or opening windows! They did prevent my flatmate from returning from the dairy, however, until the seige was over. It didn’t take long.
How times have changed, where now we must make it look much more serious than it is, so that a couple of Policemen who went into a property without adequate information, can be seen to be martyrs, rather than just a product of insufficient monitoring of a significant database by civilian/sworn staff on desk-duty. A procedural breakdown gets escalated into ‘a terrorist situation’ to justify the use of spare equipment that ultimately didn’t have any purpose there.
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do i ‘understand’..?..bj..?
..indeed i do..
..you are using your family as the excuse for your own actions..
..i am not saying you should impose edicts on your family..
..but you could/should lead by example..eh..?
..you could give them the very valid reasons..
..and say this is why you can’t eat meat/animals any more..
..you are master of your own destiny in thise one..bj..
..don’t hide behind familial mores/pressures..
..methinks you are displaying the symptoms of any other addict..
..horrified/and grasping for excuses..
..at any idea/call to end that addiction..
..eh..?
..so yes..i ‘understand’ your obvious ploy..
..and it ain’t ‘flying’..
..eh..?
(i have a lived-phd in addictions..
..so i can’t fail to see it/the symptoms..eh..?
..hello brother.!..
..still loving that flesh/fat/blood..eh..?
..can’t get those monkeys off your back..?..)
..c’mon b.j..!
..we all know you’re a bigger man than that..
..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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oh sorry..i missed this bit in yr response..
“..I don’t care that much .”
..so.. bj..
..you are saying you ‘don’t care that much’ about the suffering/environmental abuse from farming animals..?
..that admission pretty much makes your claims to be ‘green’..
..more an exercise in auto-eroticism..
..eh..?
..pray tell how that can’t be..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Thanks for understanding Phil, but I really do not have time, amid everything else I do, to prepare a separate meal for myself and engage in fighting with my kids or my wife and her mother. Not that I don’t already fight with them about quantities.
I do not care enough about this to upset my wife sufficiently for her to wind up in hospital… again. I do care enough to remind you that you aren’t doing yourself any favors by trying so hard to get me angry with you.
I repeat, you DO NOT KNOW what you are asking. If you did you’d drop it so fast you’d get friction burns.
BJ
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This is REALLY good.
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/5464#more
BJ
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Thanks BJ
I was about to post the same link !!
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They don’t have to believe that to declare David innocent. Just that there’s insufficient evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt it was David.
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phil u, your argument for going vegan is pretty weak, there is nothing imoral about eating animals as far as I can see.
A cow may potentially live to be 20, but in the wild there is a natural predation that removes primarily young animals, this is true for all the animals humans use for meat. You may have a point regarding present farming practice, but killing young animals in itself is entirely consistent and necessary for the natural balance of nature.
Perhaps farming animals in a more natural herd structure would be an avenue for sustainable management of dairy farms.
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SHunda says: I think respect for life and ecosystems should be central to an intelligent society.
Agreed. Which brings to mind the relevance of the ‘Values ideology’ as opposed to the “Green ideology’. ‘Green’ gives the impression of natural green things and, yes, (to some extent) the natural environment. Whereas ‘Values’ centre stages a moral outlook which may indeed be more appropriate: The central question is “What value do we place on the environment? Where do we stand in relation to it?’
Whereas ‘green’ may laudably give precedence to natural process, ‘values’ goes further by incorporating humanity’s propensity to value nature’s intrinsic worth.
The Values Party was aptly named.
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>>just that there’s insufficient evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt it
Please correct me if I am mistaken, but aren’t ‘insufficient evidence’ and ‘reasonable doubt’ both rather subjective? Do we not have to also add something like ‘from the jury’s perspective’? Or are there more clear cut ways of determining just what constitutes ‘sufficient evidence’ and ‘beyond reasonable doubt’?
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bjchip says: This is REALLY good
Thanks for the liknk bj. I’m still trying to get my head around this Herman Daly’s ‘Steady State Economics’ stuff. But I think this has helped a little. I mean, as Roger Douglas once said: ‘There’s got to be a better way’
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Isn’t that a Housing New Zealand development?
Not quite the usual “nasty developer” story I would think.
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>>Not quite the usual “nasty developer” story I would think.
To raise concerns about this proposed development seems very reasonable to me. I would have thought that the interest of the Green Party is rightly the likely negative impact on the environment .. in this case Meola Creek … rather than who is responsible. I would expect the Greens to be critical even if it were the brainchild of Jeanette Fitzsimmons!
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“..phil u, your argument for going vegan is pretty weak, there is nothing imoral about eating animals as far as I can see…”
oh well..end of discussion with you ..eh..?
..you can go over and stand with b.j…
in the ‘don’t care’ about the slavery/sufferings of animals..corner..
..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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btw frog..q&a had norman vs. boscowan..
..norman did very well..
..and i was pleased to see him play the mt-albert-political-party-leader-transition card..
..he was very relaxed..
..and totally nailed boscowan on the public transport vs. roads argument..
..and all in all..
..maybe it’d be worth featuring..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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bj..you obviously missed by footnote telling you the ‘you’ in the piece was not directed at you..per se..
..as to all the walking oxymorons out there..
..’green carnivores’..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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The arguments used against genetic modification apply equally well to selective breeding.
Is anyone really suggesting that we should not make use of selectively bred species such as all our vegetables and fruit and of course our dogs and horses and birds?
And if we are not going to approve of genetic modification are we prepared to give up on antibiotics which are all fermented from genetically modified organisms.
And vaccines are now antigen based and are bred from modified viruses etc.
Just compare the corn we eat today with the corn that the Indians first discovered and began to breed. The cobs were about 5cms long.
We have bred out the pesticides from most of our green vegetables so they are no longer bitter. Some remain and we actually enjoy the residual bitterness in mescalin and the like. And of course the flavour of onions and garlic and most herbs is from the pesticides that without selective breeding would be poisonous to us.
I think the most sensible response to much of this is to be found in “The Botany of Desire” where the author points out that just as we use plants and animals plants in particular have learned to use us. If we desire plants, like the tulip, the potato, the apple, marijuana, then their survival is guaranteed.
Tit for tat.
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Senior moment back there. The author was Michael Pollan who also wrote “The Omnivores’ Dilemma” and “In Defense of Food” and “A Place of my Own”.
I loved them all and it is fair to say they all changed my life and outlook in one way or another. I challenge anyone to read “A Place of my Own” without wanting to rush out and build their own small place on the ground. Fortunately I have been able to to do so two or three times.
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No.
The mechanisms used in GE are only barely related to what happens with selective breeding. The consequences of splicing genes from frogs into tomatoes are unknown.
GE is very important and should not be stopped. I am not in favour of going back to the bad old days when insulin was barely available to diabetics. But GMOs should not be released into the environment or the food chain until we know what we are doing. We don’t.
peace
W
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Amusing to see Phil having a go at someone for taking on the responsibilities of a family, and running it as less than an autocracy.
BJ – my regards to your babushka & your co-conspiritors in the menu planning. Now that I’m mostly semi-veg, with the kids living at their Dad’s, I have the luxury of choosing to buy only those comestibles that I truly enjoy, within my budget, which respond to my ethical concerns about food.
Phil, before you clap your hands in glee – that took twenty years of catering to my family, negotiating menus and grocery lists around the particular wants and dislikes of anything up to seven people, depending on how my household was made up at the time. How do you stop a teenage boy from eating meat pies? It’s a small battle worth losing, if I can keep him communicating and out of more serious kinds of ‘rebel’ behaviour!
I defy anybody who allows their children some degree of intelligence and autonomy to come up with a better solution – although I admit I do know some veggie/vegan families whose children do eat all the veggies/fruit; but I do know there are some compromises made on the vegan/freegan continuum, so as not to offend when accepting hospitality provided by others.
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“..I defy anybody who allows their children some degree of intelligence and autonomy to come up with a better solution..”
um..!..i raised a daughter as a vegetarian..
..and as a young adult..
..she asked me why wasn’t i a vegan..?
..and..my 14 yr old son has his carnivorous mates at high school bidding to buy a piece of his vegan lunch off him..
..(often last nights’ leftovers..+ fork..)
..having the education/awareness of all the issues/suffering surrounding meat he has..
..and given the vegan-peer group
.(of all ages..the long-term health benefits glaringly obvious to him..)
..all mean he stands tall/proud in his differences to his school peer group..
..and i would submit..is a positive influence on them..
..(once again..by example..)
..and katie..good on yer (and others) for being ‘on the road’..
..the destination of which is..of course..becoming vegan..
(how can it not be..?
..and believe me..
..the stripping away of any equivicating in the diet..
..is a very liberating experience..)
..(it is like peeling layers from an onion..
..and just keeps better and better..)
..and as a former serious cheese-addict..
..(i had to have it every day..and when smitten by the munches.
..could polish off a half a key in one sitting..)..
..i now walk through the supermarket and look at the acres of cheeses..
..and just see it as milk-sludge..
..and almost feel tired..
..from the memories of how glogging up yr bod on the dairy..
..makes you sluggish/heavy…ech..!..)
..i know i hector/yell here..
..and this is partly through an extreme degree of impatience..
..art the inaction of those..
..who i would submit..
..should know better..
..(i’ll leave the chiding at that..)
..and i would like to re-emphasise..
..how eating a well-rounded vegan diet..
..opens up a whole new world of gastronomic treats for you..
..(my porridge..?..to die for..!..)
..and on a health level..
..just makes you feel sooo good…
..i really wish the scales would drop from others’ eyes..
..and sooner rather than later..eh..?
..there is a lot of suffering going on out there..
..we must stop it..
..if not us..?..
..who..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
and i respectfully offer this link ..
..797 stories/links that will answer all/any questions you may have..
..and includes more recipies/diet/health advice/information..
..than you can poke a stick at..
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sigh..!..the link..
http://whoar.co.nz/category/vegan-stuff/
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Owen said “The arguments used against genetic modification apply equally well to selective breeding.”
Mate that’s really wrong. Your logic shows your naivety.
Your post inferes that you do some reading, I recommend the following link for you.
http://mercola.fileburst.com/PDF/GMFI%20Propaganda.pdf
“antibiotics which are all fermented from genetically modified organisms”
I’m pretty sure that’s wrong.
“vaccines are now antigen based and are bred from modified viruses etc”
That’s right in that they are ‘modified’ viruses. They are NOT genetically modified! The only GM vaccine approved for use in NZ is for horse flu. And I’m pretty sure it hasn’t been used .. yet. Nor should it as there is already a non-GM vaccine for horse flu.
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Owen said “And if we are not going to approve of genetic modification are we prepared to give up on antibiotics which are all fermented from genetically modified organisms”
You are right that many ab producing microbes are GM but not all. The end product is penicillin (or whatever drug) without live GMO and little if any GM DNA. Isn’t this the Green position? .. Keep it in the lab.
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Hey Frog
Can you set up a thread on veganism? That might keep FillYou’s fingers out of my sight and let me follow the discussions here without interruption for a personal agenda.
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