by frog
Here’s an information highway shortcut to the latest on the Auckland highway shortcut.
National’s plans to go over ground were on the TVNZ and the TV3 news last night and got Granny Herald’s knickers knotted this morning.
Our man for Mt Albert, Russel Get-More-Muscle Norman, says buses and trains will cut congestion and we should make better use of our existing roads before bulldozing hundreds of homes:
It is 1950s dinosaur thinking to hammer a motorway through the heart of a residential area
The rest of the world acknowledges that more roads inevitably mean more traffic which require more roads…even Los Angeles for goodness sake has invested in rail.
Meanwhile, here in New Zild, mastodons still roam the political plains and we are lumbering towards more motorway madness. Bring me my asteroid.
Published in Environment & Resource Management by frog on Wed, May 13th, 2009
Tags: motorway, Russel Norman, waterview
on the trolls and those who are unable to keep on topic
yah. Provide your reasons please. One would think...
I see that Mt Albert residents are threatening to lie down in front of dozers. Maybe we need to organise some NVDA training?? To start, I suggest locking on to tripods and tunnels as a more effective barrier – much harder to clear hehe.
It’s always a challenge to adequately cost the loss of non market values in an economic analysis. How do you value the destruction of an ancestral home? Perhaps we could use the extra cost caused by protests as one proxy LOL.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Great lumbering politisaurs, swinging their clubbed tails over the landscape, obliterating the cosy homes of the good folk of Mt Albert! What will it take to get the message of restraint through those thick skulls? A win to the Greens! That’ll do it!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
As someone said elsewhere, it was a choice between the tunnel or nothing. Now that a full tunnel’s off the table it is time to push for nothing.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
A few hundred local whiners vs a nation of taxpayers….
Big issue to split the local left vote….
Very nicely played, National….
I see you’re jumping right into the trap, feet first, as usual…..
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
I can see merit in completing the connection between the two motorways and the relocation of houses is probably worth it in the long run. (Bulldozing is not likely in most cases). leaving the current gap in the link is not helping either side of the argument. Any proposal to begin construction of a new motorway would be dinosaur thinking indeed.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
I can see merit in completing the connection between the two motorways and the relocation of houses is probably worth it in the long run. (Bulldozing is not likely in most cases). leaving the current gap in the link is not helping either side of the argument. Any proposal to begin construction of a new motorway would be dinosaur thinking indeed.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
BluePeter said: Very nicely played, National…
Forever the optimist for the blue team aren’t you BP. I suppose you can see and upside for Melissa Lee and the Nats from these revelations too.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
# BluePeter Says:
May 13th, 2009 at 10:48 am
A few hundred local whiners vs a nation of taxpayers….
……………..
More a small piece in a much bigger picture: unsustainable growth to feed economic activity to developers and associated businesses.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Oh goody this will be fun!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Where is the evidence the Avondale-Southdown rail link has a business case? Even ARC isn’t proposing building it till beyond 2020. Where is the evidence that bus and rail will provide congestion relief on this corridor? Public transport is nigh useless at meeting the needs of most commuters not heading to or from the CBD, and Waterview is not about trips to/from the CBD. Many major cities have ring roads to facilitate such orbital movements, this is Auckland’s.
“The rest of the world acknowledges that more roads inevitably mean more traffic which require more roads…even Los Angeles for goodness sake has invested in rail.” Utter hogwash, if properly priced more roads means more mobility and many many new roads never get congested – the first motorway in New Zealand rarely faces congestion (Johnsonville-Tawa). Los Angeles did not “invest in rail”, federal money was poured into a multi billion dollar system that has made no dent at all in congestion, and serves 1% of LA county trips, compared to 5x that for buses, which are grossly starved of any funds because most of their users are Hispanic and Black and would vote Democrat anyway. LA’s problem is lack of pricing and capacity on certain key freeway links.
Everywhere in the world new motorway links continue to be built, in Europe, the Americas, Australia, Asia and the Middle East – the only dinosaurs are anti-roads believers who think the most flexible mode of land transport should be constrained by supply, and have its users pillaged of funds to pay for other modes, instead of pricing the lot properly.
For the by-election this is now a non-issue, whoever is MP can’t influence it, because the Nats aren’t influenced by parochialism in this electorate.
However my question to the Greens is this. Why does the Green Auckland transport plan include a map with bus corridor along a motorway corridor which parallels at least part of the Waterview connection?
http://www.greens.org.nz/sites/default/files/auckland_transport_plan2008.pdf
So is a road ok if it is a busway? If so, why not for trucks too? Short distance freight movements are almost never efficiently handled by rail.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
I’m fine with freight trucks using a busway as long as they don’t clog it. It would get heavy trucks off local roads which has to be a good thing.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
>>suppose you can see and upside for Melissa Lee and the Nats from these revelations too.
Don’t see a problem, unless she has direct influence on editorial. Got any evidence she does? How is this different from owning shares in wind farm generation? What shares do the Green Party own?
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
>>unsustainable growth
It is not. It’s a road. We use roads to move about. We need a lot more of them, and of much higher quality. Get on with it, NZ.
We lag far behind the developed world, due to nimbys and inaction by politicians.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Funny to see all the right wingers suddenly ignoring private property rights for the supposedly greater good of Auckland and NZ. The government shall give, take, expropriate and compensate as it sees fit. Long live the collective and its centralised management. Good on ya!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
>>ignoring private property
Ever bought a house? If so, I suggest you read (carefully) what exactly it was you were buying. There is no breech of that contract.
Secondly, if you buy a house in a motorway designation area you can’t start whining when they start to build said motorway. You buy price reflected taht risk.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
What motorway designation?
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
BluePeter said: Don’t see a problem, unless she has direct influence on editorial. Got any evidence she does?
Well, there is the evidence of the AsiaVision former staffer in the Campbell Live interview, for a start.
And tell me where the National Party campaign video alleged to have been made using AsiaVision staff and equipment appears in the Nats’ Election Expense Return. If you can find it there, you’re doing better than me BP.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
BluePeter croaked: It’s a road. We use roads to move about. We need a lot more of them, and of much higher quality. Get on with it, NZ.
Hey big spender! In a bit of a ‘golden phase’ are we? Plenty of dosh to splash about on new roads? You sound a little frantic and pedantic Blue. Got an interest in a gravel crusher, by any chance?
We lag far behind the developed world
‘Spose so. Wish we had the roads (and traffic) they have in the better-developed world. Roll out the bulldozers, BluePeter wants it done, NOW!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
The Melissa Lee revelations are a bit ‘untidy’ aren’t they? It would be embarrasing for the Nats to be distracted from their game at Mt Albert, by incoming accusations of ‘corruption’ from other combatants and the media.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
How many of these people live in a state house?, those who do have NO right to moan about the house they live in being demolished.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
# BluePeter Says:
May 13th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
>>unsustainable growth
It is not. It’s a road. We use roads to move about. We need a lot more of them, and of much higher quality. Get on with it, NZ.
We lag far behind the developed world, due to nimbys and inaction by politicians.
…………
I bet they say the same sort of things in the UK. It is the quality of development that is important.
Generally speaking we have a disfunctional society that applauds “growth” but disassociates costs.
In this case completing a ring road probably makes sense, but the same old paradigm seems to be running the show.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Hey Big Bro! How many of those houses are state houses? Do you know? Or are you just blowing?
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
>>And tell me where the National Party campaign video alleged to have been made using AsiaVision staff
There’s not enough to go on. But if there has been impropriety, they should front up and people should be fired. No question.
IF
Meanwhile, do let us know who owned what windfarm holdings when, before you start throwing stones. And hold them to account, too.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
BluePeter said: …if you buy a house in a motorway designation area you can’t start whining when they start to build said motorway.
Except they’ve just changed the route where the motorway is going to go, and changed it for lots of it to go above ground when recent prices would have been on the assuption it would be undergrounded (not that I’m defending Labour’s tunnel either).
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
>>Hey big spender! In a bit of a ‘golden phase’ are we? Plenty of dosh to splash about on new roads?
Because roads and cars are generally good things because they help us get places quickly and cost effectively. If you put a ring road around a city, you make life inside the city much more pleasant. The Dutch and Italians are great at this.
I know your religion depicts cars and roads surrounded by burning fire and brimstone, so any rational argument with Greens about roads are pointless.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
There’s the main (I nearly said key – 0t me!) point. Affordability! For those of us with our own problems, this means aboput $2 billion being not allocated to that and (perhaps) being allocated to – dare I say it – TRANSMISSION GULLY!
At least this means Auckland WILL get their investment – we poor people in the capital still have no certainty!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
>>Except they’ve just changed the route where the motorway is going to go
Not by that much. If you chose to buy in Mt Albert, you accept that a motorway was going through at some point, hence the discount prices.
Cuba St in Wellington is very pleasant and bohemian, and that is only possible because a motorway routes traffic around it. Had the motorway not been built in the 70s, Cuba St would be permanently gridlocked with cars and trucks.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
BluePeter spouts: any rational argument with Greens about roads are pointless.
so… is your argument rational (in which case I ask, why are you having it with us, given that you believe it pointless) or is it irrational (in which case I ask again, why are you having at all?)
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Come up with the numbers and convince me otherwise, Greenfly.
Why am I having it? It’s fun. Pointless, but fun.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
but Blue, you didn’t answer my polite question! Is your argument rational or irrational ?
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
shunda – another must-read from idiot/savant (sorry Frog, for the diversion, but shunda needs to get the norightturn habit along with his daily does of Frogblog).
http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2009/05/bulldozing-democracy.html
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Rational.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Fly
I don’t know how many of these houses are state owned, I have heard that many of them are however I would like to know for sure.
I am sure you would agree with me that state house tenants have no right to complain about this, private owners are a different issue.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
And is it rational to argue when you believe it to be pointless?
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
bro – I’m sure that you would agree with me that state house tenants have rights under their tenancy agreements. I’m sure they have a right to complain if their agreement is to be altered unexpectedly. I’d be miffed, wouldn’t you?
As to your question about the number of state houses in the proposed path of the bulldozer, it seems neither of us knows. Is it worth pursuing?
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Blue – ‘fun’ would be a point, but you say ‘pointless’.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Actually, it is 1960′s De Leuw Cather (Chicago, Ill) thinking. Their 1965 report planned much of the Auckland motorway network. Unfortunately, the politicians did not take all the advice in the report. The ring of roads that choke central Auckland and make it difficult to get into the center of the city, with or without a car, was one local innovation. Another was to ignore half the reports recommendations entirely.
The first half of the report dealt mainly with roads and ended with words to the effect that traffic growth could never be accommodated by building motorways. The second half of the report dealt with the needed public transport infrastructure.
I read the report in the Auckland City Council’s offices about fifteen years ago, which alert readers will note was around the time National messed with the Auckland local bodies by gutting the Auckland Regional Council and creating the Auckland Regional Services Trust.
None of the plans discussed today – road or rail – seem to have changed much those proposed in the De Leuw Cather report – so it is a little surprising it has not been made available on-line as far as I can tell.
It is also interesting that, despite the reports recommendations, ‘completing’ the motorway is the priority while the public transport network has barely been started. I suppose that, although the international Green conspiracy can control NASA, NIWA, the UN and 32 national science academies, Transit NZ is proving too tough a nut to crack.
http://www.aucklandcity.govt.nz/auckland/Introduction/bush/chap4.asp
So I guess you could say the Greens are adopting 1920′s thinking.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
>>And is it rational to argue when you believe it to be pointless?
My argument is rational.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
>>Blue – ‘fun’ would be a point, but you say ‘pointless’.
Mostly pointless.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Blue – stop your quibbling over semantics – cut to the chase
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Brilliantly supportive piece on Campbell Live, Russel. Did you direct that one?
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
“No Right Turn” sucks greenfly, when I read it, it makes me look like I’ve sucked a world record lemon.
And forget about roads.
National should build a canal so everyone can sail to work.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Forget sailing Shunda, just buzz to work like the demented utopian greenfly.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
>>cut to the chase
Chatting with you is mostly pointless.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
# BluePeter Says:
May 13th, 2009 at 3:55 pm
> Cuba St in Wellington is very pleasant and bohemian, and that is only possible because a motorway routes traffic around it. Had the motorway not been built in the 70s, Cuba St would be permanently gridlocked with cars and trucks.
the traffic that goes parallel to Cuba st doesn’t go on the motorway. It goes on Victoria St and Taranaki St, and the fact that it goes on those streets has absolutely nothing to do with the motorway. Nearly all of the motorway traffic goes across Cuba st, at traffic lights.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
shunda said: I’ve sucked a world record lemon
You often come across as a sucker shunda
Don’t give up on idiot. And don’t despair over Nationals idiotic plans to turn the country into motorway – the good people of Mt Albert are stirring!
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
>>the fact that it goes on those streets has absolutely nothing to do with the motorway.
That’s where the motorway ends and the by-pass begins.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Oh and I’m not opposing private property rights. NZTA should now start offering to buy properties on the route, offer money for a range of alternatives and then proceed with the one that it can get the land for.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
# BluePeter Says:
May 13th, 2009 at 8:54 pm
>>the fact that it goes on those streets has absolutely nothing to do with the motorway.
> That’s where the motorway ends and the by-pass begins.
no. The by-pass carries traffic across Cuba St, not traffic that would otherwise be going along it.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Norway, the world’s fourth biggest crude exporter, said Monday that its oil production fell a sizeable 7% in April to 1.99 million barrels a day last month from 2.15 million barrels a day in March.
Viking_longboat_art_200h_20090511104911.jpg
Another Norwegian export that’s declined (AP)
Though preliminary, the data highlight one of the big underlying supply problems in non-OPEC states that many oil analysts believe is likely to send crude prices back over the $100 a barrel mark in coming years. Oil closed Friday at $58.63, its highest settle since mid-November. It is trading around $57.75 a barrel this morning.
The Norwegian situation is being replicated in other non-OPEC oil producers, such as Mexico and the U.K. These regions are mature and giving up less oil, meaning that keeping production flat is getting harder and harder.
If analysts are right, this underlying supply struggle will keep oil prices relatively strong in coming years. And that’s a boon for renewable energy developers. Not just are they set to receive an enormous infusion of cash, low-interest loans and other support out of capitals f
http://blogs.wsj.com/environmentalcapital/2009/05/11/oil-prices-norwegian-supply-falls-is-100-oil-far-away/
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
>>no. The by-pass carries traffic across Cuba St, not traffic that would otherwise be going along it.
But if the motorway wasn’t there, then traffic would be using all the smaller interior streets.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Because there’s been bugger all investment in oil supplies in the last 6-9 months when the world’s economy does (eventually) recover oil prices are going to skyrocket.
…. which will probably lead to another recession.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
BP, with respect to your Cuba St musings:
you give the impression of one who has trouble reading maps – once said to be a peculiarly feminine trait – and I’m concerned that you are arguing without ever having walked Cuba St, as I, and I suspect Kahikatea, have.
Cuba St runs south from the waterfront, beginning right in front of the MFC and Old Town Hall.
The motorway and the by-pass, or ‘Wellington urban motorway extension’ as Transit preferred to call it, both run transverse to Cuba St – east to west, or reverse depending on your direction of travel – in neither case is Cuba St an alternate travel route to traverse Te Aro flat towards the Eastern suburbs and the airport, the general reason why most people are crossing that area.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
“As to your question about the number of state houses in the proposed path of the bulldozer, it seems neither of us knows. Is it worth pursuing?”
Is it when the answer is on one map. You will see that the State Housing suburbs in the area all adjacent to the motoway route but not actually on it.
http://www.itsmybackyard.co.nz/areaplans/docs/heritagesettlement.pdf
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
>>and I’m concerned that you are arguing without ever having walked Cuba St,
Wellington born and bred.
Cuba St would be an alternative, if neither by-pass or motorway had been built. Remember it in the 70s? Cuba Mall was two lane. It routed up through Cuba St.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Most of the houses on the Alan Wood Reserve side of Hendon Ave are state houses I think.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Don,
<quote. It is 1950s dinosaur thinking to hammer a motorway through the heart of a residential area
“Actually, it is 1960’s De Leuw Cather (Chicago, Ill) thinking.”
Um, actually it was 1946 MoW and Labour Government thinking to co-locate State Houses and motorways. The 1946 regional planning was the first to advocate for all these state housing subdivisions located alongside new transport corridors.
Alan Wood Reserve exists because when the Housing Dept finished building the state houses with road frontage it was decided not to build on the rear properties accessible through the five rights of way off Hendon Ave. That was to allow room for the motorway adjacent to the railway line. In 1981 the council bought the land from Housing Corp and leased the railway thus creating a temporary reserve. For that reason the reserve has never been declared as such under the Reserves Act, is zoned residential instead of recreational, and has a works designation assigned to NZR (not ARTA).
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)
Alan Wood Reserve is zoned Special Purposes to the northeast of Oakley Creek and Open Space to the southwest.
If it had been designated as a reserve then NZTA would have had real trouble ramming the motorway through it. I think that’s a large reason why we have ended up with the motorway being put under Avondale Heights and Great North Road, rather than through Phylis Street Reserve.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0 (0)