by frog
This week’s announcement that the Government will extend the bonding scheme for teachers, nurses, doctors midwives and vets is all good for the serious shortage in the next few years but typically fails to address the real issues behind losing so many students overseas – the student loan scheme.
The student loan scheme imposes an unbearable and grossly unjust burden on new graduates in these and other crucial areas. Pay rates, especially for teachers, nurses and midwives is ridiculously low – not withstanding the enormously generous minimum wage increase of fifty whole cents.
Those going into those professions simply have to look elsewhere for work after graduation because it is impossible to get any financial security.
National has stiffed these often low paid workers by not increasing their wages to a liveable level or undoing (even slowly) the student loan scheme or by increasing the student loan to a liveable allowance so they don’t have to borrow to live while they study. And in exchange they, and us who require these services from tr4ainied professionals are expected to be grateful for their peanuts. I don’t think so.
From an education perspective the bonding scheme needs close scrutiny. The Greens see it as a first step towards a better new teacher recruitment and retention incentive but it is not the total package.
Interesting to note that the scheme designers did not consult with the teachers unions, who would have advocated for incentives for experienced teachers as well. After all that is where the there is a critical shortage.
I have so many mates who are ex teachers because they are worn out from large classes, huge stresses and lack of support to deal with the critical issues facing their students. Money is part of it but being stressed and undervalued is also a major issue. It would be good if the Government listened to them before designing “solutions’.
After all bondage is supposed to be between mutually consenting adults.
Published in Economy, Work, & Welfare by frog on Fri, February 27th, 2009
Tags: bonding, Education, politics, student loan
on the trolls and those who are unable to keep on topic
How is the student loan schemme in any way unfair? The vast majority of costs are payed for by the government so only a very small portion of the real costs even end up on the loan. The loan has no interest whilst you study and as long as you continue to live in NZ.
Why should people not have to pay for there own education? there is a social benefit, and that is reflected in the massive subsidy, but there is also a massive individual benefit. Im doing a degree that will take me 8 years at minimum, most likley 10, my loan will rival a mortgage. I just consider myself lucky i dont have to pay the full cost or interest!
People must pay for tertiary education, atleast in part, as they gain large social and economic benefit from said education.
We already have enough dips at uni whom are there because they havint decided what they want to do yet or just see it as a right! education is not a right but a privledge, those whom have a “C’s get degrees” attitude and do so at the taxpayers cost should be castrated.
With a bonding schemme the loan becomes nothing for the student and a useful tool for a increasing the educated workforce in NZ.
Thats my rant for the night
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I walked away from one early career choice, after realising that successful graduation would have seen me bonded to work in some of the most gothic, in-need-of-upgrading, psych institutions in the Southern Hemisphere. (yes, including the one Janet Frame wrote about)
Now, young adults are put under incredible strain with student loans, and the generation that caught the first iteration in ’92 are often still saddled with debt to this day.
This has meant a demographic gap in the workforce, as graduates have headed overseas and not returned, and a sociological phenomenon of 30-somethings who have stayed here being unable to buy houses, start families, or get ahead in life as their elders did straight after graduation during the 80′s.
NZUSA, the national advocacy organisation for students’ concerns, has done huge amounts of research over the past 5 – 10 years, showing the detrimental effects of the Student loan scheme.
story:
http://www.salient.org.nz/news/nzusa-troubled-by-treasury’s-trundling
[excuse me for pushing a mate's writing, but it's a very good overview of the situation!]
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I don’t think student loans are the main cause of graduates going overseas. Often young graduates simply want to travel overseas to live and work in exotic places. Another common reason for going overseas is that that New Zealand is too small to offer the range of jobs that can be found overseas.
The reality is that from a financial perspective can often be better off to stay in New Zealand and not pay interest on a student loan than to go overseas and pay interest on the loan.
There is also a “theory” that overseas jobs (e.g. in Australia) pay more than equivalent jobs in New Zealand. This is not true for many skilled jobs; overseas living costs can be higher than in New Zealand, and ones income after rent, food etc is often similar to in New Zealand. The theory that student loans drive graduates overseas into highly paying jobs just doesn’t seem to stack up from my experience. Living overseas (in Australia), I can honestly say the difference in pay rates does not allow me to repay my student loan any faster than in New Zealand (in fact, with the interest, the repayment rate is a _lot_ slower). The only hope I have of repaying my loan before I am 60 is if the New Zealand dollar crashes with respect to the Australian dollar …
Having said that, Katie’s points about the effects of student loans preventing graduates being able to save for house deposits etc is quite true. Without a loan, I would have been able to save a house deposit after about 5 years of working; with a loan, I live from one weeks pay to the next (and that is living frugally).
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one of the ‘broad sweeps’/slate-cleanings required..
..is the wiping/absolving of the millstones of student debt..
..and a return to free education..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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apologies..that should be/read ‘inter-generational millstones’..
..phil(whoar.co.nz)
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samiuela: My personal experience of this crossroads was a beaut…..twice the Salary in Australia (same company, same job), I kept blinking, but the Offer was real!
The cost of living was close to half that of NZ at the time, though this has become less true.
Aged 24 at the time, I didn’t feel there was any choice involved, I went.
I notice we are losing 1,000 people a week at the moment, many of whom I fear will be amongst our best.
Because of the Kiwi work ethic and integrity (I guess), I kept getting better and better opportunities there – offers that simply don’t come up in NZ for a number of factors, which I can go into if you are interested.
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PS:Nice Post Frog!
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Give me a tradesmin over a graduate any day. Tradespeople can actually do something. There has been too much emphasis on degrees in recent history. And, yes, I do have a degree.
Further I want to start a business, I go borrow to do it. Is a student loan any different? At least it might teach some money sense, something the education system completely fails to do.
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In the old days when education was free the underlying theme that governed such things was that the adults who had society had built it up and were offering the youth a way in that said “we have built this and it is stable and you can be a part of it depending on your merits”
Paid education means the adults have built a debt ridden society to the point where the up and coming generation has to buy into that debt. The adults who didn’t pay for their education have gotten it wrong and are expecting the new generation to “buy” into the ensuing chaos.
Samian makes a valid point by choosing a tradesman over a graduate.
Nobody seems to have realised that the education system is out of control and instead of it being an adjuct to an economy by feeding into to meet needs… it has become an economy unto itself and is almost parasitic, actually it is parasitic as the good it does the economy is far behind its actual cost.
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Sapient Says:
February 27th, 2009 at 6:48 pm
> People must pay for tertiary education, atleast in part, as they gain large social and economic benefit from said education.
We already have enough dips at uni whom are there because they havint decided what they want to do yet or just see it as a right! education is not a right but a privledge, those whom have a “C’s get degrees” attitude and do so at the taxpayers cost should be castrated.
I wonder if university fees are actually part of the problem here. They turn students into customers, who have an expectation of getting degrees because they’ve paid for them.
Of course the biggest job of a university is to teach, but employers and the wider society also expect it to distinguish those who have learned enough and showed sufficient commitment and judgement to deserve a degree from those who haven’t.
Personally, I think there should be a distinction between the grade that is sufficient in a single paper to use it as a prerequisite, and the grade average that is necessary to get a degree. I would say you should need a B average for a degree.
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Overseas Businesses are waiting for our best Graduates with Contracts. The Brain Drain is a post ww2 phenomenon – that has cost this country severely.
Our best People (in most areas) Graduate and are to be found living and working Overseas – I don’t know if anyone has an effective answer to this problem.
Our Population numbers are (by comparison) small; ergo so is our economy – we can simply not afford to keep these people here – but ceasing to effectively educate our people is not an option much.
This equation could change – people I’ve lived amongst O/S, including Australian, North Americans and Indonesians generally see NZ as quite an attractive prospective country to migrate to.
I believe that we have to ‘lift our game’ socially to consolidate our o/s image – current socio-economic events internationally are making NZ a more and more attractive notion all the while – can we catch the wave as it were?
Tertiary Education may not be a ‘Right’, but I believe it to be, to a large extent, a Duty.
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kahikatea,
That maybe the case, but having not been around in that time i cannot comment. To the extent that I have asked them about it they almost all say that they get around C because thats all they need for a degree, most of them seem to want to go on to be teachers or people whom are just there. I think the problem may be largley to do with our society, these people are motivated only to do enough to pass but not to excel or even try to get a C+.
You may be on to something with those varying levels. If we didint already have a shortage of idiots/teachers I would suggest that secondary should require atleast a masters and as such they would need at least a B average.
Mark,
But you have the right of it, no bad pun intended. Society creates a framework which enables people to be all they may be provided they make an effort; it is ones duty as a beneficiary of the society to become all that one may to further enhance or support society. If that means as a road worker, a sparky, or a quantum physisist, so be it.
A Duty, huh? i didint expect such a protestant ethic from you
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Sapient: Kite Flying i am – full of right-wing Protestant surprises!
Wasn’t thinking in terms of a philosophical ethic. Was actually trying to find a tractable and pragmatic way forward, on an issue that poses some profound problems – but it’s an area where you would have superior knowledge.
So you won’t be shocked to learn that we agree on this much – each to the best of her/his own best ability. Something I hold to be a superior organising principle.
Something about the individual’s ability to be motivated by a greater thing than money – which all sounds a bit lofty if you haven’t got any.
But, yes, the Social Contract is about more than the dough one may or may not get paid.
It’s why I find Volunteer work so rewarding – the actual experience of being able to make a positive change in the lives of others is no small joy (in humble manner).
Am not obliged to toe any ‘company line’, can simply set about producing what is wanted and needed most.
A seperate sense of fulfillment if you will. Where Standards need never be compromised.
Should get to your town soon as ‘Duty’ there calls – and so shall I. Trust you are well and good regards ’til then etc.
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People will leave New Zealand for the same reasons people leave Woolagong for Sydney, Bradford for London, or Christchurch for New Zealand’s ‘World City’. I doubt a student loan is the real reason people leave. I know a lot of NZ people overseas, but I don’t think any of them are there because of loans.
We are a little country a long way from anywhere. 85% of New Zealand enterprises have five or fewer employees (FTE), well over 95% have less than ten. Outside the Government and the branch offices of multi-nationals there are few enterprises in New Zealand that would come close to ‘medium’ sized in the US or Europe.
It is not reasonable to expect smart and/or ambitious young people to stay in a backwater – and no amount of waffling on about the ‘Switzerland of the South Pacific’ or ‘World Cities’ is going to change that.
What we should do is figure out how, once they have built up their networks overseas, we get them to bring their businesses back or build businesses here. Things like http://www.madefromnewzealand.com is a good start, but we have to ask why would people want to live here? It is not going to be money or the big city lifestyle, we seem to be increasingly not ‘great place to bring up kids’.
But then what would we know? We’re just the dummies that got left behind.
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So what do people seek?
How do we construct a country which would attract them back?
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I got my degree in comp sci. and left after working for 2 years in NZ and then headed to work in New York.
Why, nothing to do with student loans and everything to do with money. I can make a lot more money here than can ever be made in NZ.
NZ has no economy its a banana republic.
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Gently with the truth there Turnip – most are not willing to believe that Ritchie McCaw (who?) is not as well known as Bob Dylan.
Sapient; It starts with a willingness to change – to be open and honest. Unfortunately we are a long way off that.
Personally I would also like to move overseas again – lack of health care here has effectively, literally crippled that notion.
But NZ has an awful lot going for it in terms of the ‘best of both worlds’ – no unbearably hot summer (no bushfires) – no snow (for most of us), no wild predatory animals that would love to have you for dinner!
No widespread gun violence (Turnip can brief you on the dangers of New York) Enough to say that my first night there, 5 people were shot dead in my local Subway, for no particular reason. Those Headlines were scrapped when a guy in Spanish Harlem took a machine gun to his extended family, along with his next-door neighbours – 19 dead.
Hell – no famines or uncontrolled disease. None of the kind of pollution you get o/s.
Bugger all french or australian people (just jokin Macca).
A lot of it has to do with attitude.
One of my Bosses used to make a point of staying in Hilton Hotels, wherever in the world he went – they are structurally identical – however he said he could always tell when he was in NZ – they bring your Breakfast up half an hour late, cold, and throw it at you.
Successful friends who won’t come back talk of a certain smugness, a conceit amongst the Locals which is most unbecoming. I think of it as petty Officialdom – people define themselves by the job they hold. It’s like arriving in a small town in the southern States to discover the Sheriff is an homicidal bully..
This could be a small book in itself – but what I find most disappointing, is that NZ is a House (a small cottage) that is divided against itself. ie; Hate thy neighbour.
We are too small a nation to be so divided, socially, economically, racially. We are in Denial about our hideous Class System. A hangover from the old British ‘divide and rule’ practice.
There are too many spitefull people around who have never quite made the journey into adulthood.
Human Rights are discretionary – a truly third world trait – hmm guess I’d better shut it, right about here, without mentioning the narrowminded and unwarranted Pride (the other six deadly sins are here in abundance too.
Overlegislated yet not understood – oh yeah shhh Mark.
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OK,
I guess I must be wrong about students going overseas to pay off their loans. My experience (obviously not typical) was that I got 20% less pay in Australia than in NZ (doing a similar job requiring a post-graduate degree). This was partly offset by the exchange rate and compulsory superannuation. Living costs are comparable to NZ (some things are cheaper, others more expensive).
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“People will leave New Zealand for the same reasons people leave Woolagong for Sydney”
Don, why would people need to leave Woollongong for Sydney? They could catch a train from Woollongong for Sydney daily and keep their inexpensive house. Apparently the trip is beautiful as well, and could be compared to the Paraparaumu to Wellington run.
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Sapient,
You ask the questions: “So what do people seek?
How do we construct a country which would attract them back?”
Obviously the answer varies depending on individuals and what jobs they do. Here are some points I reckon would attract back scientists:
1) Opportunity to work in the field they specialise in. This may be very difficult for a country such as New Zealand with a small population. In some fields New Zealand will have to expect graduates will go overseas simply because there are not enough jobs locally.
2) Sufficient pay to live comfortably and support a family. My personal experience was that the pay in New Zealand was adequate and comparable to Australia… I don’t know if this is the case for all science jobs, but it was the case in the field I worked in.
3) Opportunity to freely communicate with scientific colleagues both locally and overseas. This is an extremely important point. Commercialisation of science has the potential, if not managed well, to stifle communication because of “commercial sensitivities” (ie don’t talk about what you are working on because the competitors might steal the ideas).
Obviously there will be other important issues for other people. I imagine what would attract people doing other jobs (e.g. health professionals) would also be quite different to what I have listed.
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Interestingly ‘the market’ is cited as a reason British universities have started offering BSc’s in Homeopathy and the like – which is of course a travesty – but the demand is there!
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Samiuela,
Yes, i was thinking much the same thing in all honesty.
So;
We need to increase the availibility of jobs in science and engeneering, how do we do this? I would propose that for the engeneering side of things we implimnet a state funded research and development institute not unlike the Swedish ahve done with weapons manifacture, focus ours on energy development and we may have a market. As to science, I think that is mostly to do with infrastructure, so reduce administration in our universities and increase funding for research and development and provide incentives for start-ups in the high-tech and high-paying feilds, e.g. large start-up grants. Eliminate all tax on R&D within New Zealand as this will both attract business and create high-tech jobs.
As to pay rates, our pay is so low because our main industry is that of a third-world country, to increase pay we must shift the balance to higher-paying industiries such as international services and knowledge based industries, this would be enhanced by the encouraging the sciences and engeneering and would be stimulated by a overnment owned, at-cost-of-opperation cable to singapore which would vastly increase our internet performance and decrease costs substantially allowing for greatly enhanced industry based around said infrastructure.
As to point three, i dont know what one should do, If one is working for a pharmicuticals company or a engeneering firm the contract will almost always have a secrecy clause. In psychology we dont really have that problem. Legislating against secrecy clauses would discourage a very large amount of industry and thus jobs and counteract the effect of the other two points.
Stephen,
homeopathy? i seem to remmeber hearing about this. but homeopathy? the very principles conflict with, ohh, everything in chemistry and physics
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Right on Sapient. Thankfully a few Professors and the like have managed to stop it being taught at a few of the universities over there. Interesting how market forces influenced the courses on offer, just would’ve thought a frickin’ university would’ve figured out that it shouldn’t be taught as science.
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> no unbearably hot summer
Um – yes. I can’t tell what the fire danger is at the moment – all the signs seem to have sunk into the mud. I hope the farmers are happy.
>Woollongong for Sydney
First name that popped into my head. I had just been watching a web ad about someone booking a cheap flight to Syndey – er, well actually Woolagong. “Would you like to take luggage with that?” I have been trying to find it again.
Cambell Live had some interviews with English immigrants – most of them are going to Hamilton. (http://www.3news.co.nz/Hamilton-the-buzz-word-for-recession-avoiding-Brits/tabid/367/articleID/93556/cat/84/Default.aspx)
From that interview, the main reason seems to be better family life and lifestyle (which I always thought was something for rich people who did not have an actual life.)
So better schools may be one thing. My neices and nephew seem to be ferried all over town to do sport and art – the kind of things that I used to do at school. Can’t be good for low income families, or parents who cannot take time off.
As to pay rates, etc, the only real measure is what you can do for an hours work. I went to the UK and was getting the same number of pounds as I was getting dollars in New Zealand, but I think a dollar in New Zealand was better value than a pound in the UK, regardless of the exchange rate.
I am considering my options at the moment. I was not keen on Auckland – I lived there in the ’90s – because it was so difficult to get around. But public transport seems to be improving, so maybe it is an option.
I like the idea of Urban Villages clustered around fast transport links – probably rail.
I also used to live in Wellington. Looking at Trademe Rentals, I don’t know how I afforded to live in Mount Victoria, but I did. Wellington feels ‘cityish’ in a way Christchurch and Auckland don’t.
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Frog – appreciate the blog, I’ve been reading for a while but finally decided to make comment – this post (more the ensuing discussion) reflects on something that I’ve been thinking about lately.
From the horses mouth: I’m currently an engineering student at UoA. Will I work here when I graduate? Probably not. As much as I consider NZ to be a beautiful country, it appears to me that the career opportunities are simply not comparable to many countries overseas.
You may all be interested in the following article: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/trade/news/article.cfm?c_id=96&objectid=10559030
In the above (linked) article Paul Callaghan makes these points (amongst others):
- High tech companies attract high-earning employees
- NZ has a disproportionately large number of research papers published (per capita)
- NZ has a low amount of R&D funding (per capita – compared with the OECD average)
- NZ has a vastly lower number of patents per 1000 population, 0.03, compared with Finland, 0.15 and the USA, 0.26.
There are many factors contributing to this, however three things in particular I feel we could (should) do here are:
- Encourage high-tech companies to base themselves in NZ, or at least have centres of research here, by offering tax incentives. I’m aware we already do this and know of one company which is located here specifically as a consequence of this (Endace – http://www.endace.com/) – is there room for improvement?
- Push engineering and the sciences amongst students – with a focus on innovation.
- Supply more public money for R&D, once again with a focus on innovation.
If you’ve read Professor Callaghan’s article you’ll realise I’m repeating parts of it – these are things I feel would significantly improve the state of NZ’s job market (and more).
We are taking steps in the right direction. National’s push to introduce high-speed fibre is one. To make this worthwhile however, we may need an upgrade to the southern cross cable, or possibly a supplementary arrangement with another country, for example Singapore – as mentioned by Sapient. This brings NZ a little closer to the world, especially in the eyes of a high-tech company which will be in constant international contact.
It is certainly true that the current state of the world is (sad as it is to say) a *huge* opportunity for New Zealand to take some of these initiatives and put itself forward on the international tech stage.
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# StephenR Says:
March 2nd, 2009 at 10:06 am
> Interestingly ‘the market’ is cited as a reason British universities have started offering BSc’s in Homeopathy and the like – which is of course a travesty – but the demand is there!
You can do a BAppSc (Bachelor of Applied Science) in complementary medicine in New Zealand. The degree is granted by and Australian university, but all the classes are in Auckland. My friend did it, thinking that, because it’s called ‘applied science’, they would be studying things like acupuncture, homeopathy and herbalism scientifically. She ended up quite disillusioned, because there was little scientific rigour in the way they studied most of the topics.
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Don Says:
March 3rd, 2009 at 9:10 am
> So better schools may be one thing. My neices and nephew seem to be ferried all over town to do sport and art – the kind of things that I used to do at school. Can’t be good for low income families, or parents who cannot take time off.
There’s an advantage to choosing a smaller city so that you don’t have to ferry them long distances. Also, most of the schools in New Zealand with bad reputations are in big cities – it seems that, in the smaller population centres, any school is fine.
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kahikatea, yeah, that sounds quite deceiving. I would hope that wasn’t from a reputable Aussie university…if it was simply from a ‘tertiary provider’ I would’ve looked much closer at the course before taking it…
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# StephenR Says:
March 5th, 2009 at 11:49 am
> kahikatea, yeah, that sounds quite deceiving. I would hope that wasn’t from a reputable Aussie university…if it was simply from a ‘tertiary provider’ I would’ve looked much closer at the course before taking it…
It was Charles Sturt University, which appears to have a similar history to AUT – ie. it is accredited as a university, but it grew out of a polytechnic.
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