by frog
So maybe South Africa doesn’t want a visit from the New Zealand Maori team anymore, but does that mean we don’t want the team either?
Those of you who took intro to logic at uni can probably give us a formal refutation in two minutes flat, and while you’re doing that, a couple of things for the rest of us to consider:
Number 1. We should respect the rights of the South African government, rugby union and its people to do whatever the hell they want: invite who you want, play who you want. Your country and your rules – rules nowadays set by a majority. Conversely, we have a right to select teams on whatever basis we see fit. And if the Maori don’t play in South Africa, the team can continue to play here as well as in Australia, Fiji, Samoa, Tonga, the United States, Canada and England as it has done in recent seasons.
Number 2. The politics of rugby in South Africa remains incredibly volatile. Transformation means bitter debates about the number of black or coloured players in the Springboks, the colour of the coach, the use of the Springbok emblem, etc. etc. The sport represents the white-ruled past which makes rugby simultaneously repugnant but also a vitally important arena for change. As a result, you can probably expect policy about receiving race-based teams to change several more times between now and the middle of the year when we might pick the NZ Maori squad for 2009.
Now, the sad part about this debate also comes in two parts.
Part A: The focus on the Maori team distracts from the really hard stuff that South African rugby needs to deal with. While a bunch of pols periodically grandstand around the Boks, transformation at the Super 14 level has been pathetically slow.
Part B: The presence of Maori players in the All Blacks and as the Maori team has been profoundly important to many South Africans – especially coloureds –through the apartheid years. The reality of racially integrated teams was an important rebuke to the Afrikaans architects of apartheid and something of a beacon for the oppressed. That’s not to say it was right for New Zealand to tour which is another topic. The point is that there’s an unfortunate irony in the idea that the Maori team may no longer be welcome in the new Republic. Frog has been to Tests in places like Johannesburg and Pretoria where much of the white crowd will only the sing the Dutch and English sections of their national anthem. What better answer to that narrow mindedness than a New Zealand team of Maori, Pakeha and Pacific Islanders playing ‘their’ game better than they do.
Published in Society & Culture by frog on Fri, February 20th, 2009
Tags: apartheid, greens, Maori, new zealand, Rugby, South Africa
on the trolls and those who are unable to keep on topic
Maybe we should create a New Zealand Pakeha Rugby Team, and a New Zealand Pacific Islander Rugby Team, and they can play matches with the Maori team (and with each other). That would probably be of more interest to fans than Maori vs Springboks.
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Quite simple really, Maori All Blacks is racist, it’s wrong.
Even a Maori Kapa Haka team would be wrong, as by definition whites/yellows etc would be excluded.
I marched against this sort of thing in 1981.
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Correct call, SA. No race-based sport selection.
Anywhere.
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Lets create a New Zealand
European Rugby Team
a Maori Rugby Team,
a Pacific Islander Team and an Asian Team.
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Note selection based on race is wrong and if we had a constitution would be un-constitutional.
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# turnip28 Says:
February 20th, 2009 at 6:21 pm
> Note selection based on race is wrong and if we had a constitution would be un-constitutional.
would you also prohibit selection of sports teams on the basis of sex, age or what region of the country someone lives in?
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The reason you have a sports team based on sex is because their is a recognised difference between men and women, Men are physically stronger than women and younger men are physically stronger than older men. You can’t change the laws of nature Kahikatea or do you think you can???
What recognised physical difference exists between maori and non-maori that requires maori to have their own new zealand team?
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Brown skin, of course.
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What recognised difference exists between Aucklanders and Wellingtonians that requires them to have their own Super 14 teams?
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I would hazard that the All Blacks ARE a ‘european’ team – the number of rugby players in NZ without euro blood would be REALLY tiny. But, thats not the point.
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Why is it that so many people fall over themselves to make excuses for what is a racially selected team?
Can a White Kiwi play for the team..no
Can a PI Kiwi play for the team…..no
Can an Asian Kiwi play for the team….no
Can a Safa Kiwi play for the team….no
It is crystal clear, the Maori rugby team is racist and I applaud the actions of the SAFA rugby union.
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There is no Dutch section of the SA national anthem, btw. I think you mean Afrikaans.
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>>What recognised difference exists between Aucklanders and Wellingtonians that requires them to have their own Super 14 teams?
A person could join the other team easily enough. Move there.
Hard to change your race….
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Frog,
As an ex-South African and Springbok supporter (and Afrikaans to boot – how unPC can you be?) I wade into these stormy waters with care.
Firstly, contrary to certain media reports the decision not to play against racially based teams is not that of the SA government but that of the SARU President’s Council. It was taken some years ago, obviously as a result of the past practices and to demonstrate a break with a strong racist past where the variuos races in SA were not allowed to play against each other (never mind being selected for the same team) into the same teams and the “elite team” was selected from white players only. The black and the coloured teams were seen as inferior. This was then also the basis on which black and coloured South Africans would support any team that played the Springboks and why you still find strong support for the All Blacks amongst the coloured supporters in Cape Town.
From a South African perspective the selection of a team based on race would be harking back to the bad old days. Having said that, you are correct that at provincial and super -rugby level the progress to make teams more representative of the country has been lagging – partly because the dominant sport amongst the black population has been football rather than rugby, but also because rugby is strong at school level – which again still has strong racial make-up because of (amongst other things) location. It is for this reason that SARU has insisted that a quota be implemented – to ensure that black and coloured players are sought and found. Initially this was a forced issue and subject to a lot of criticism but in the last couple of years strong players have come through that can be selected on merit regardless of colour. A lot of this is to do with grass roots finding and nurturing of talent from school level and onwards.
The position in New Zealand, as far as I have been able to understand it, is that the NZ Maori team does not have the negative inferior image that the racially divided structure in SA had – that the team proudly represent a group within NZ and are proudly supported. I am not sure that a comparison with SA is apt at all.
It seems regretable that SARU has taken such a openly political decision, the SA government did not require it to do so.
For me personally, I shall take my cue from the NZ attitude to the Maori team, if it is seen as a proud part of the culture I support it, if it is seen as a “poor man’s substitude” for the real thing, then not. I have no reason to think it does not have the support of Maori (unlike the SA examples I mentioned above) and I see it as part of the NZ contribution to a great game – like the haka – long may it be performed.
Cheers
Johan
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Well said Johan: it is not the end of Maori Rugby – that is a cultural team every bit as much as a sporting team (even though Chris Cullen gets selected – I’d like to see THAT family tree!).
But how can we ask SA to host a team that is racially selected?
We Can Not.
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Well said Johan! If a team is based on cultural pride, as the Maori team historically was and still is, I am all for it. If it is based on racial division, which in our case it never was, than get rid of it.
BB and the others with divisive tendencies can only see in black and white – absolutists. Unfortunately for them, the real world is mostly grey. It’s more work to understand the world as it is, grey and messy, but I’d rather do the hard work than to live with a hardline, extremist view. (I think that the SA folk, whatever their race, are taking a hardline view, but given their history, it is an understandable view.) It is their choice though, as I said in the post, and I will respect their decision to play with whomever they want.
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and ‘they’ will respect my decision to exclude maori from my activities? I hope not.
Isn’t it bizarre how racism only cuts one way?
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Samiam: Your view is profoundly correct; however, it will take some time for those “forerunners of social change” the Kiwi’s, to accept they are left behind, and one of the most truly racist countries.
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Johan Says:
February 21st, 2009 at 1:49 pm
> It is for this reason that SARU has insisted that a quota be implemented – to ensure that black and coloured players are sought and found. Initially this was a forced issue and subject to a lot of criticism but in the last couple of years strong players have come through that can be selected on merit regardless of colour. A lot of this is to do with grass roots finding and nurturing of talent from school level and onwards.
If the Springboks have a quota number of black players that they have to find, then they are a racially-selected team too – the only difference being that the New Zealand Maori side has a Maori quota of 15. So, I think they’re being hypocritical – either race is a legitimate issue to take into account in choosing a team, or it isn’t.
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Minority teams are formed by minorities to include the minority, not to exclude the majority.
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Whoa now – we didnt exclude enough maori to condemn. Indeed interbred as their adoption of of us allowed.
Myself i am gratefull for their welcome, and am still looking for whitey to agree
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The problem for the maori team playing a sport (or actvity of any type) which is not originally of their culture (although Im sure there will be one or two revisionists who will try to claim that precolonial maori did play rugby !!) is that its what I call ‘the thin edge of the wedge’. One day someone is going to form a team which will be specifically non maori and then watch the brown stuff hit the fan. Just think of the reaction if we had a ‘pakeha (only) rugby team’ – sounds like south africa of 40 years ago.
The arguement about other difference factors is interesting. About the only other similar “difference” aspect is gender. Everthing else – religion, location etc, one can change if you want to – but you cant change race or gender. Our law currently says that in general you cant discriminate on the basis of race – and I guess that applies to rugby as well. Maybe the real problem is that non maori actually arent interested in playing for a maori team. Anyway i do think we would be better off without race based selection for anything. Even some of our oldest institutions are race divided. The anglican church is set up on a race based administration – P.I., pakeha and maori – and its more trouble than its worth. Its a pity we arent New Zealanders first rather than race first ie: Take Hone Harawerea – he thinks of himself as a tribe member first, a maori second and a new zealander last. It should be the other way around.
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>>Well said Johan! If a team is based on cultural pride, as the Maori team historically was and still is, I am all for it.
Can of worms. Sporting offshoots of the National Front might start to argue that they are based on white pride.
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You are just trolling, BP. It’s like the definition of pornography. Hard to pin down, but we know it when we see it.
You are just being contrary because you see that as your mission in life. Do you get paid for it?
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I enjoy exploring these issues. I don’t see much point debating with people I already agree with, do you? One might end up quite myopic.
>>>You are just trolling, BP
Trolling appears to mean “holding a viewpoint Frog doesn’t agree with”.
It’s a race based team. We should be heading towards a point where nothing, whatsoever, is based on race. You either believe in that or you don’t.
It is….black and white.
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“It’s like the definition of pornography. Hard to pin down, but we know it when we see it.”
“Cultural pride” my a***. NZ Maori is a race-based team. There’s nothing “hard to pin down” about it.
Would you support an official NZ Whites team?
Again, principles seem to totally elude you: You simply seek to justify whatever you happen to agree with (and then, more often than not, try and force it into law so your own prejudices are backed up by police and guns.)
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Interesting range of responses hey Frog? We protested against an Aparthied Political Regime that used slave labour, imprisonment and death to enforce power – the Springboks were just Representatives of that regime.
Perhaps it’s time to dust off the film ‘Patu’ which includes one of NZ’s great political speeches. I guess a lot of your PostPeople weren’t around them Days. We had a major city’s Rugby Park near my father’s home – we were unwilling spectators to NZ’s worst social disaster.
Muldoon lost any potential support from me(not that he lay awake over it) but figured, very coldly, that he would get more votes letting the tour go ahead – his retaining power was more important to him than civic peace in NZ – therefore a true tyrant.
The Maori All Blacks have always been a source of pride.
Yes, it’s racially based, but it’s only a sport – not a political tyranny.
Kiwi’s tend to take themselves a tiny bit seriously don’t they?
See any white guy’s in the Harlem Globetrotters then?
I for one, enjoy watching our Maori team play – always have and always will.
It gives opportunity to guys who would otherwise not recieve it.
regards
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First, There is no such thing as race; race is, and always was, a flawed theory (Though i do remmeber an anthropology lecturer arguing against race due to differences in distribution of physical differnces and, unintentionally, making a strong case for race. Ah, one must love anthropologists, the retards of the social sciences!) Maori is a ethnicity, it is a grouping based on a shared history and culture. Race by definition requires fundimental physical differences which have not existed since the extinction of the people of florence possibly as close as 300 years ago.
Second, New Zealand is a profoundly racist country; though atleast we are open about it to a certain extent. In the past it was the deliberate attempts to elimminate all things maori, such as baning the usage of maori in schools, etc, etc. Now it is reversed, but is racism none the less. Frog, and many others here, openly support apartheid in new zealand despite having protested against it in south africa. take off your fracking blinders!
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“BB and the others with divisive tendencies can only see in black and white – absolutists.”
You really are an idiot Frog!
There is nothing divisive about wanting true equality in NZ, there is nothing divisive about wanting all races to be treated the same way.
People like you are the very reason we have race problems in NZ, you demand special treatment for Maori and fall over yourself to find excuses for their many failures.
Stop making excuses for Maori Frog and start asking the hard questions, the sooner Maori start taking responsibility for themselves the better we will all be.
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Good letters Mensch! I am more concerned with our Legal and socio/economic systems creating actual aparthied – than any sporting team.
And our Media plays a profound role in this.
Not reporting crucial information can be worse than reporting with an obvious bias. ie; Not on the 6 o’clock ‘infotainment news’ generally keeps a population ignorant about what is actually going on. It is the single greatest enabler for corruption – of all kinds.
Indeed sports teams are generally a binding force in any community. Just saw a doco on the Wyoming ‘Chiefs’ – a basketball team, exclusively Native American or ‘Indian’ – it provides a whole community with purpose and identity. I don’t believe there can be an argument for this example being a bad thing.
I would pay to go see an exclusively ‘black’ rugby team from South Africa.
Denial is the most unhelpful, unhealthy thing. The last resort of a moral coward.
regards
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The argument that the Maori team is okay because it’s based on ‘racial pride’ is silly. Unless I’m very much mistaken, the rules that used to keep the Springboks all-white stemmed from a system that was ultimately inspired by racial pride.
I think the big difference between the NZ Maori team and the old whites-only Springbok team is that the whites-only springbok team was part of a system to keep non-whites out of top-level rugby. Members of the Springboks did not also play in other teams alongside black or coloured players, and for many years they even insisted any All Blacks team they played be all-white (no pun intended). By contrast, the New Zealand Maori team plays against teams with members of other races, and many of its members are also members of multi-racial rugby teams.
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Ha, theres a lot of white looking maoris in that team . They have stretched the qualifying criteria so far that the acuality is a mixed race team anyway. I think its one sixteenth to be in.
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I don’t have a problem with a Maori team – so long as no one is excluded from the national team.
It may be inconsistent, but a foolish constancy is the hobgoblin of a little mind.
“for many years they even insisted any All Blacks team they played be all-white”
Or at least ‘honorary whites’
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Kahakitea: Perhaps pride is not the right word – and I don’t think ‘Racial Pride’ accurately reflects NZ’s position either.
I meant that those Maori teams I have watched and played against (as a Pakeha) always give 100%, win lose or draw.
SA employed torture murder and limitless jailing and mass shootings to keep their blacks totally enslaved.
A regime so harsh virtually the entire world (except Muldoon and the NZRFU) would not go anywhere near.
Would have gone in to this more fully, but am still sorting genuine Greenies from time-wasting Trolls.
The Film ‘Patu’ is worth it’s weight in Gold (if you can find a copy). Some of it is shot from my Dad’s front gate (what a shake-up).
In fact it should be required History viewing in our schools; Brutal, Tragic and perhaps NZ’s finest hour.
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A team selected by race is racist. nz maori rugby team seems to be selected on race however, it was created to represent maori. end of story. …now its easy for the ill informed to create a big song and dance how this selection is racist but i haven’t heard any complaints about another great maori selection ‘team’, probably one of the standout fighting forces in WW2, the 28th maori battalion! a different argument, i know, but one to think about…
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