Comments on: The End of KiwiRail? http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/02/19/the-end-of-kiwirail/ hopping along the corridors of power Fri, 10 Feb 2012 07:16:29 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.3 By: Kevyn http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/02/19/the-end-of-kiwirail/#comment-72724 Kevyn Sat, 14 Mar 2009 08:00:50 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/02/19/the-end-of-kiwirail/#comment-72724 Geoff, Your latest comment makes a great deal of sense. It's precisely why rates ceased to be the main source of money for roads when horsepower replaced horse power, roads ceased to be solely of local benefit. The only thing you have to be careful of with branch lines is that locomotives are only five times more fuel efficient than trucks when the freight trains are the right size. The sort of small mixed trains that used to operate daily on branch lines in the 1920s might have been too small. However, that could be balanced by the fact that trucks operating on local roads are less fuel efficient per tonne km than linehaul trucks. To be really effective at moving freight from road to rail there does have to be sufficiently frequent services and that does run the risk of making the trains too small. Tranzrail actually did operate a daytime express freight service between Christchurch and Dunedin but with a 100 tonne loco pulling fewer than a dozen wagons it would have had little advantage over a truck in tare to gross weight ratio and aerodynamic drag. Lower rolling resistance may still have made it worthwhile. I did see some of these trains with only half a dozen wagons which is a much worse tare to gross weight ratio than a linehaul truck so it may actually have defeated it's own environmental objective. Kiwirail would have to invest in suitable locomotives to follow that route, and they probably will have to when peak oil really begins to bite. I am optomistic that road freight can dramaticly improve it's fuel efficiency in local services where rail isn't a solution. The nature of the roads and the operating characteristics of local trucks are ideally suited to get the maximum benefit available from hybrid technology, and that is already offered by major truck and truck transmission manufacturers at reasonable cost.

Geoff, Your latest comment makes a great deal of sense. It’s precisely why rates ceased to be the main source of money for roads when horsepower replaced horse power, roads ceased to be solely of local benefit.

The only thing you have to be careful of with branch lines is that locomotives are only five times more fuel efficient than trucks when the freight trains are the right size. The sort of small mixed trains that used to operate daily on branch lines in the 1920s might have been too small. However, that could be balanced by the fact that trucks operating on local roads are less fuel efficient per tonne km than linehaul trucks. To be really effective at moving freight from road to rail there does have to be sufficiently frequent services and that does run the risk of making the trains too small. Tranzrail actually did operate a daytime express freight service between Christchurch and Dunedin but with a 100 tonne loco pulling fewer than a dozen wagons it would have had little advantage over a truck in tare to gross weight ratio and aerodynamic drag. Lower rolling resistance may still have made it worthwhile. I did see some of these trains with only half a dozen wagons which is a much worse tare to gross weight ratio than a linehaul truck so it may actually have defeated it’s own environmental objective. Kiwirail would have to invest in suitable locomotives to follow that route, and they probably will have to when peak oil really begins to bite.

I am optomistic that road freight can dramaticly improve it’s fuel efficiency in local services where rail isn’t a solution. The nature of the roads and the operating characteristics of local trucks are ideally suited to get the maximum benefit available from hybrid technology, and that is already offered by major truck and truck transmission manufacturers at reasonable cost.

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]]> By: Trevor29 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/02/19/the-end-of-kiwirail/#comment-72395 Trevor29 Sat, 07 Mar 2009 21:56:22 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/02/19/the-end-of-kiwirail/#comment-72395 Thanks for the link. Some interesting stuff there - not all of it optimistic. Various mentions of batteries, solar technology, fuel cells, etc which could be applicable to powering electric trains. Not so much progress on ways of powering a diesel truck fleet or coastal shipping or aircraft. Building up our diesel truck fleet as you appear to be suggesting (implicitly) could be likened to collecting dinosaurs. Trevor. PS I suspect some of the articles lack technical accuracy, based on a quick look at the all-liquid battery article which appears to claim that antimony loses electrons in going from an ion to a metal.

Thanks for the link. Some interesting stuff there – not all of it optimistic. Various mentions of batteries, solar technology, fuel cells, etc which could be applicable to powering electric trains. Not so much progress on ways of powering a diesel truck fleet or coastal shipping or aircraft. Building up our diesel truck fleet as you appear to be suggesting (implicitly) could be likened to collecting dinosaurs.

Trevor.

PS I suspect some of the articles lack technical accuracy, based on a quick look at the all-liquid battery article which appears to claim that antimony loses electrons in going from an ion to a metal.

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]]> By: wat dabney http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/02/19/the-end-of-kiwirail/#comment-72371 wat dabney Sat, 07 Mar 2009 08:50:04 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/02/19/the-end-of-kiwirail/#comment-72371 Trevor, Well, for one there's: http://www.physorg.com/technology-news/energy/ Page after page after page of news about developments in energy. But you'll also see such stories crop up regularly everwhere from digg.com and slashdot.org, through to theinquirer.net and theregister.co.uk The issue is not that there are no new ideas or technologies, but that there are so many of them; everything from groundbreaking new techniques for generating and storing energy, through to bacteria that clean up formerly unacceptably dirty processes. Nobody can hope to be aware of or understand all these technologies, nor accurately predict their economic impact and potential, but a free market <i>can</i> synthesise the information and, through the prices that emerge, sort the sheep from the goats.

Trevor,

Well, for one there’s:

http://www.physorg.com/technology-news/energy/

Page after page after page of news about developments in energy.

But you’ll also see such stories crop up regularly everwhere from digg.com and slashdot.org, through to theinquirer.net and theregister.co.uk

The issue is not that there are no new ideas or technologies, but that there are so many of them; everything from groundbreaking new techniques for generating and storing energy, through to bacteria that clean up formerly unacceptably dirty processes.

Nobody can hope to be aware of or understand all these technologies, nor accurately predict their economic impact and potential, but a free market can synthesise the information and, through the prices that emerge, sort the sheep from the goats.

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]]> By: Trevor29 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/02/19/the-end-of-kiwirail/#comment-72367 Trevor29 Sat, 07 Mar 2009 08:00:14 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/02/19/the-end-of-kiwirail/#comment-72367 "Almost every week it seems there is a new breakthrough in energy technology,..." I must have missed some of those break throughs. Could you give me links to some of the more recent break throughs? Or are you just hoping that your lifestyle can continue against all the real evidence and logic. Trevor.

“Almost every week it seems there is a new breakthrough in energy technology,…”

I must have missed some of those break throughs. Could you give me links to some of the more recent break throughs? Or are you just hoping that your lifestyle can continue against all the real evidence and logic.

Trevor.

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]]> By: wat dabney http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/02/19/the-end-of-kiwirail/#comment-72351 wat dabney Sat, 07 Mar 2009 00:11:06 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/02/19/the-end-of-kiwirail/#comment-72351 Trevor, - "Before I retire, I expect that I will have paid over $1,000,000 in taxes. Shouldn’t I get some say in how this money is going to be spent?" You only have one vote. You can never influence how that money is spent once it has been taken out of your pocket. Only special-interest groups wield any real influence. From teachers' unions to business sectors, they spend big bucks (as is their right) to buy hand-outs and concessions (or simply to avoid being screwed over by the politicians.) And have you seen the pork attached to the recent US mega spending bill? It is obscene. - "How much are you waging that petrol, oil, gas and aviation fuel prices won’t rise much above present levels? …apart from the future of New Zealand that is." The point is, how much are you planning to <i>make</i> me wager on this, by taxing me to fund your monorail? Nobody knows where petrol prices will go. The US is (yet again) talking about energy independence and is throwing huge money at it. What effect would it have on oil prices if they are largely succcessful (though at huge cost) and US demand were to drop significantly? Why not let the US proceed with its costly folly, and allow Kiwis to enjoy (probably) far cheaper petrol for decades? Or who's to say it won't be a cheap hydrogen economy in a couple of decades' time? Or electric? Almost every week it seems there is a new breakthrough in energy technology, and I'm probably missing most of it. It seems that, through a failure of imagination, you want to forcibly tax me to make a wager against all of that.

Trevor,

- “Before I retire, I expect that I will have paid over $1,000,000 in taxes. Shouldn’t I get some say in how this money is going to be spent?”

You only have one vote. You can never influence how that money is spent once it has been taken out of your pocket.

Only special-interest groups wield any real influence. From teachers’ unions to business sectors, they spend big bucks (as is their right) to buy hand-outs and concessions (or simply to avoid being screwed over by the politicians.) And have you seen the pork attached to the recent US mega spending bill? It is obscene.

- “How much are you waging that petrol, oil, gas and aviation fuel prices won’t rise much above present levels? …apart from the future of New Zealand that is.”

The point is, how much are you planning to make me wager on this, by taxing me to fund your monorail?

Nobody knows where petrol prices will go. The US is (yet again) talking about energy independence and is throwing huge money at it. What effect would it have on oil prices if they are largely succcessful (though at huge cost) and US demand were to drop significantly? Why not let the US proceed with its costly folly, and allow Kiwis to enjoy (probably) far cheaper petrol for decades? Or who’s to say it won’t be a cheap hydrogen economy in a couple of decades’ time? Or electric?

Almost every week it seems there is a new breakthrough in energy technology, and I’m probably missing most of it. It seems that, through a failure of imagination, you want to forcibly tax me to make a wager against all of that.

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]]> By: Trevor29 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/02/19/the-end-of-kiwirail/#comment-72349 Trevor29 Fri, 06 Mar 2009 22:32:22 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/02/19/the-end-of-kiwirail/#comment-72349 Wat: Before I retire, I expect that I will have paid over $1,000,000 in taxes. Shouldn't I get some say in how this money is going to be spent? How much are you waging that petrol, oil, gas and aviation fuel prices won't rise much above present levels? ...apart from the future of New Zealand that is. Trevor.

Wat:

Before I retire, I expect that I will have paid over $1,000,000 in taxes. Shouldn’t I get some say in how this money is going to be spent?

How much are you waging that petrol, oil, gas and aviation fuel prices won’t rise much above present levels? …apart from the future of New Zealand that is.

Trevor.

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]]> By: wat dabney http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/02/19/the-end-of-kiwirail/#comment-72332 wat dabney Fri, 06 Mar 2009 11:23:02 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/02/19/the-end-of-kiwirail/#comment-72332 Trevor, If you are so certain of this, then surely there is a good opportunity for you to invest your own money in an NZ rail enterprise and make a killing? Or is it only other people's money you are so gung-ho about?

Trevor,

If you are so certain of this, then surely there is a good opportunity for you to invest your own money in an NZ rail enterprise and make a killing?

Or is it only other people’s money you are so gung-ho about?

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]]> By: Trevor29 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/02/19/the-end-of-kiwirail/#comment-72331 Trevor29 Fri, 06 Mar 2009 11:10:26 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/02/19/the-end-of-kiwirail/#comment-72331 The people in lala land are those who expect the prices of petrol and diesel to stay under $2/litre. When oil shortages hit and we watch helplessly as the prices of tyres and bitumen climb along with the petrol, oil and LPG prices (and CNG if we are stupid enough to plan on importing CNG) then we will appreciate having a good rail network that is at least partially electrified. Trevor.

The people in lala land are those who expect the prices of petrol and diesel to stay under $2/litre. When oil shortages hit and we watch helplessly as the prices of tyres and bitumen climb along with the petrol, oil and LPG prices (and CNG if we are stupid enough to plan on importing CNG) then we will appreciate having a good rail network that is at least partially electrified.

Trevor.

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]]> By: geoff_184 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/02/19/the-end-of-kiwirail/#comment-72327 geoff_184 Fri, 06 Mar 2009 08:49:50 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/02/19/the-end-of-kiwirail/#comment-72327 James wrote: "As Liberty Scott has pointed out rails a pig…its a vast toilet that billions of taxpayers dollars have been poured into…and there is more to come it seems. Only a few lines are viable…..the reat is scrap waiting to happen." The rail network is a network, not a collection of separate railways. The branches feed the trunk routes. Cut the branches, and you cut the viability of the trunk routes. Of course your description is perfect for the roading network. It's a pig that is a vast toilet that flushes even larger amounts of public money. If you take the same approach people such as yourself say needs to be applied to rail, you would be left with almost no financially viable roads. They would all be closed, and we would be riding horses. It's funny how the pro-roaders contradict themselves by insisting each railway needs to earn its upkeep individually, but not the roads. I'd love to see user pays introduced for roads. GPS units in every vehicle charging the total cost of the road upkeep, according to the specific road being driven on. Make every road pay for itself on a purely commercial basis. Just as is expected of rail. James, you can deny it until you are blue in the face. That won't change the fact that diesel trains use five times less diesel than trucks. Put the linehaul on rail. Keep the local on trucks. Simple.

James wrote: “As Liberty Scott has pointed out rails a pig…its a vast toilet that billions of taxpayers dollars have been poured into…and there is more to come it seems. Only a few lines are viable…..the reat is scrap waiting to happen.”

The rail network is a network, not a collection of separate railways. The branches feed the trunk routes. Cut the branches, and you cut the viability of the trunk routes.

Of course your description is perfect for the roading network. It’s a pig that is a vast toilet that flushes even larger amounts of public money. If you take the same approach people such as yourself say needs to be applied to rail, you would be left with almost no financially viable roads. They would all be closed, and we would be riding horses.

It’s funny how the pro-roaders contradict themselves by insisting each railway needs to earn its upkeep individually, but not the roads.

I’d love to see user pays introduced for roads. GPS units in every vehicle charging the total cost of the road upkeep, according to the specific road being driven on. Make every road pay for itself on a purely commercial basis. Just as is expected of rail.

James, you can deny it until you are blue in the face. That won’t change the fact that diesel trains use five times less diesel than trucks.

Put the linehaul on rail. Keep the local on trucks. Simple.

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]]> By: James http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/02/19/the-end-of-kiwirail/#comment-72245 James Thu, 05 Mar 2009 05:44:07 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/02/19/the-end-of-kiwirail/#comment-72245 "Im sick of people bagging Rail in New Zealand when they dont know the potential benefits. Rail has the potential to reduce New Zealands dependance upon foreign oil It has the potential to save on highway maintenance" Sigh....someones in lala land.... As Liberty Scott has pointed out rails a pig...its a vast toilet that billions of taxpayers dollars have been poured into...and there is more to come it seems. Only a few lines are viable.....the reat is scrap waiting to happen.

“Im sick of people bagging Rail in New Zealand when they dont know the potential benefits.

Rail has the potential to reduce New Zealands dependance upon foreign oil

It has the potential to save on highway maintenance”

Sigh….someones in lala land….

As Liberty Scott has pointed out rails a pig…its a vast toilet that billions of taxpayers dollars have been poured into…and there is more to come it seems.

Only a few lines are viable…..the reat is scrap waiting to happen.

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]]> By: eurokiwi78 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/02/19/the-end-of-kiwirail/#comment-72238 eurokiwi78 Thu, 05 Mar 2009 04:35:43 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/02/19/the-end-of-kiwirail/#comment-72238 Im sick of people bagging Rail in New Zealand when they dont know the potential benefits. Rail has the potential to reduce New Zealands dependance upon foreign oil It has the potential to save on highway maintenance

Im sick of people bagging Rail in New Zealand when they dont know the potential benefits.

Rail has the potential to reduce New Zealands dependance upon foreign oil

It has the potential to save on highway maintenance

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]]> By: Mark http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/02/19/the-end-of-kiwirail/#comment-72094 Mark Tue, 03 Mar 2009 02:53:53 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/02/19/the-end-of-kiwirail/#comment-72094 Right on Kev - am familiar with Australian and US systems. Can only offer ideas on NZ's potential. Sorry - I'm used to people being more forthcoming - it's an Ozzie thing. But some of the protestations against Rail read like ads from the Oil Biz to me

Right on Kev – am familiar with Australian and US systems. Can only offer ideas on NZ’s potential.
Sorry – I’m used to people being more forthcoming – it’s an Ozzie thing. But some of the protestations against Rail read like ads from the Oil Biz to me

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]]> By: Kevyn http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/02/19/the-end-of-kiwirail/#comment-72091 Kevyn Tue, 03 Mar 2009 02:12:52 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/02/19/the-end-of-kiwirail/#comment-72091 Mark, I didn't need to ask if you were ignorant about freight cost structures. That was obvious from your comments. Australia has one of the least transparent land transport funding systems in the OECD. New Zealand has one of the most transparent. Consequently experience with Australian freight services reveals absolutely nothing about the actual cost structures. By contrast the annual reports to Parliament of the railway and highway administrations have always contained sufficiently detailed information to allow acurate comparisons of the cost structures of road and rail freight. There is nothing for me to apologise for. You prove by your statements that you are not cognizant of any data for freight modes and, from the tone of your comments, willfully so. The opposite is likely to be true regarding passenger transport. I did assume that part of your reason for joining this forum is to fight ignorance with facts in which case your investigations of PT systems should have provided you with greater knowledge of PT systems than most members of this forum have. Whatever you think I am trying not to say is entirely in your head. Spell it out, whether you are right or wrong it will be helpful to know what you see and I don't.

Mark, I didn’t need to ask if you were ignorant about freight cost structures. That was obvious from your comments.

Australia has one of the least transparent land transport funding systems in the OECD. New Zealand has one of the most transparent. Consequently experience with Australian freight services reveals absolutely nothing about the actual cost structures. By contrast the annual reports to Parliament of the railway and highway administrations have always contained sufficiently detailed information to allow acurate comparisons of the cost structures of road and rail freight.

There is nothing for me to apologise for. You prove by your statements that you are not cognizant of any data for freight modes and, from the tone of your comments, willfully so.

The opposite is likely to be true regarding passenger transport. I did assume that part of your reason for joining this forum is to fight ignorance with facts in which case your investigations of PT systems should have provided you with greater knowledge of PT systems than most members of this forum have.

Whatever you think I am trying not to say is entirely in your head. Spell it out, whether you are right or wrong it will be helpful to know what you see and I don’t.

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]]> By: Mark http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/02/19/the-end-of-kiwirail/#comment-72058 Mark Mon, 02 Mar 2009 07:41:04 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/02/19/the-end-of-kiwirail/#comment-72058 The King James version no doubt..

The King James version no doubt..

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]]> By: James http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/02/19/the-end-of-kiwirail/#comment-72052 James Mon, 02 Mar 2009 04:19:50 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/02/19/the-end-of-kiwirail/#comment-72052 Verdict....anti train wins by volume of pieces of evidence whislst pro losses due to fasle claims and nasty digs in place of facts...

Verdict….anti train wins by volume of pieces of evidence whislst pro losses due to fasle claims and nasty digs in place of facts…

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]]> By: Mark http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/02/19/the-end-of-kiwirail/#comment-71741 Mark Wed, 25 Feb 2009 01:49:31 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/02/19/the-end-of-kiwirail/#comment-71741 Not quite Kev: You just hopped in and said I wis ingorant without asking - when I assured you I've done considerable planning for urban and trans urban rail - as well as other transport forms, instead of a slight apology you leap straight to the conclusion that I will be setting out theses for your benefit, whilst you characterize yourself as the inquisition....wholly inappropriate to my mind - no offence meant - but have a look at what you are trying not to say...

Not quite Kev: You just hopped in and said I wis ingorant without asking – when I assured you I’ve done considerable planning for urban and trans urban rail – as well as other transport forms, instead of a slight apology you leap straight to the conclusion that I will be setting out theses for your benefit, whilst you characterize yourself as the inquisition….wholly inappropriate to my mind – no offence meant – but have a look at what you are trying not to say…

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]]> By: Kevyn http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/02/19/the-end-of-kiwirail/#comment-71727 Kevyn Tue, 24 Feb 2009 23:07:58 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/02/19/the-end-of-kiwirail/#comment-71727 Mark, I wasn't being sarcastic when I said I look forward to reading your contributions the next time urban PT is discussed. Although you are obviously being sarcastic I will never the less lend you my most important wisdom: Visit the library of your nearest university school of engineering and study the transport research journals.

Mark, I wasn’t being sarcastic when I said I look forward to reading your contributions the next time urban PT is discussed.

Although you are obviously being sarcastic I will never the less lend you my most important wisdom: Visit the library of your nearest university school of engineering and study the transport research journals.

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]]> By: Mark http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/02/19/the-end-of-kiwirail/#comment-71701 Mark Tue, 24 Feb 2009 19:14:31 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/02/19/the-end-of-kiwirail/#comment-71701 Potentially fatal Trev. The Ministry sent me on a US wide tour to study all Major rail/commute systems there also - however, that info is free only to the GP - not free to all, feckless like. In some cases a little knowledge would be a dangerous thing. Why do you not loan us your wisdom Kev? I would enjoy reading that. Looks very like a conversation you have all alone wid yourself. Long as you are happy... Frog: My research says that a Troll remains stationary;ie: under a bridge - but one that floats through like a chimera must really be termed a Trollop - you don't mind if I make this distinction then? Is National's Women's page still empty then? Perhaps I should hop over and encourage them to go on strike!?!??? Might sharpen up some of their blokes.... Can I also term overseas oil lovers; Right Against Transposrt Sense (RATS)? Just to keep the thread clean and decent. regards Mark

Potentially fatal Trev.
The Ministry sent me on a US wide tour to study all Major rail/commute systems there also – however, that info is free only to the GP – not free to all, feckless like.
In some cases a little knowledge would be a dangerous thing. Why do you not loan us your wisdom Kev? I would enjoy reading that.
Looks very like a conversation you have all alone wid yourself. Long as you are happy…

Frog: My research says that a Troll remains stationary;ie: under a bridge – but one that floats through like a chimera must really be termed a Trollop – you don’t mind if I make this distinction then?

Is National’s Women’s page still empty then? Perhaps I should hop over and encourage them to go on strike!?!??? Might sharpen up some of their blokes….

Can I also term overseas oil lovers; Right Against Transposrt Sense (RATS)? Just to keep the thread clean and decent.
regards Mark

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]]> By: Trevor29 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/02/19/the-end-of-kiwirail/#comment-71695 Trevor29 Tue, 24 Feb 2009 10:28:41 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/02/19/the-end-of-kiwirail/#comment-71695 Kevyn said:"I assume you also want all those accident inducing trees removed from our roads too." Removing some of the dead trees that have been planted beside our roads wouldn't be a bad idea. They are ugly and get in the way of foot traffic, as well as the odd errant motorist. Trevor.

Kevyn said:”I assume you also want all those accident inducing trees removed from our roads too.”

Removing some of the dead trees that have been planted beside our roads wouldn’t be a bad idea. They are ugly and get in the way of foot traffic, as well as the odd errant motorist.

Trevor.

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]]> By: Kevyn http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/02/19/the-end-of-kiwirail/#comment-71690 Kevyn Tue, 24 Feb 2009 08:51:33 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/02/19/the-end-of-kiwirail/#comment-71690 Mark, I look forward to reading your contributions the next time urban PT is discussed. However not one of your comments on freight transport has been factually correct. What point were you trying to make about tourism? If you mean it's a poor choice of industry to be dependent on with peak oil looming then I definitely agree with you.

Mark, I look forward to reading your contributions the next time urban PT is discussed.

However not one of your comments on freight transport has been factually correct.

What point were you trying to make about tourism? If you mean it’s a poor choice of industry to be dependent on with peak oil looming then I definitely agree with you.

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