NZ Green Party
Reflections on Waitangi Day

There seems to me to be a change of tone, or tenor today compared to Waitangi days past. Lot’s of people are saying that it is a love fest between John Key and the Maori Party, but I think it goes deeper than that. Chris Trotter, in today’s DomPost but not online, suggests that it is the result of a steady flow of Treaty settlements slowly beginning to redress the balance. The DomPost editorial agrees.

But the main reason for hope is that the Treaty settlement process is finally bearing fruit. Settlements have given Maori tribes an economic base on which to build and restored lost mana. The process has also given non-Maori a better understanding of injustices done to Maori in the 19th and 20th centuries.

This may well be true. Trotter claims that recent efforts to cement Maori into New Zealand’s capitalist elite are bearing fruit at last, despite the failed rear-guard action of Don Brash during the 2005 election.

But for me, listening to National Radio all morning while luxuriating in the day off, it seemed that the coverage had a more solemn, patriotic feel about it. Not jingoistic like the fourth of July celebrations I experienced in the States, where any questioning of the rituals was taboo. Instead, there was a civil debate about the appropriateness of our national anthem, our flag and our other national symbols without any of the polarising name calling I would have expected in the past.

Then there was the (and still is) the continuous flow of costumed party-goers making their way to the Cake Tin for the Sevens. The spirit around Wellington is positively buoyant.

Yesterday, I watched as the workers constructing the new Supreme Court hoisted a massive flag from the crane, and I assumed that it symbolised that the steelworkers had secured the last of the girders. (I’m showing my age, I fear.) No, it was all about Waitangi Day. Our national day.

There can be no doubt that the Treaty is the founding document of our nation and that the day of its signing  should hold a special place on our calendars.

108 thoughts on “Reflections on Waitangi Day

  1. hmmm.

    I’m conflicted about why Maaori have so much respect for John Key; but I may have an inkling –
    the Labour Government rather cynically threw standard operating procedures to the wind, when it permitted the launch of Operation 8, raided a small community with US Marines-style weapons and tactics, some of which proved to be not legal in NZ law, to their surprise. The contrast between the raids in Urewera country, and the way arrests of (mainly) pakeha suspects occurred in the major urban areas raised questions about how Labour views the rights of all citizens in Aotearoa/NZ.

    The Maaori Party, and many influential Maaori academics, from varied iwi, spoke at length about the background to the offence maoridom took from these actions; this material was poorly reported in mainstream media, often taking up to a fortnight to be acknowledged after publication in sources such as Maaori TV, Mana magazine, Scoop website, and of course, Aotearoa Indymedia.
    Dissemination of information was restricted by the removal of servers that ran some major Maaori websites, upon the confiscation of webhosters’ computers; a lesson learnt bitterly by the activist community.

    It must be acknowledged that a large proportion of Maaori do have stronger links to business and corporate communities than activist communities, however, and National has always maintained a platform within, for instance, the stronghold of the Kingitanga movement, in Ngaruawahia. So be it.

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  2. I am speaking from ignorance of the management of iwi corporate structure. Yes BP it may be about money but the model is different.

    The typical capitalist corporation is elitest, has a board and CEO and is supposedly answerable to shareholders although the board often controls a majority of shares. Middle income people may own shares but have little role in decision making and are only interested in the dividends anyway.

    I sense this is different in Iwi corporate structure. Is there more accountability in Iwi corporations to the wider iwi members and runanga? While the iwi corporate managers may be well rewarded financially I don’t think they can be described as elitest. This is a different corporate model and the successful ventures and enterprises will deliver financial and social returns to those Maori who have iwi affiliation. However doesn’t this isolate the urban Maori without iwi affiliation even more.?

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  3. Think about it this way. What did the National Government of the 1990s do for Maori? They did a lot, most of the treaty settlements that have been done to date were done during that period, or in the case of Fisheries, was started in that period. The Labour Government of the 2000s stalled and slowed down that process.

    Key invited the Maori Party, in spite of the fact that National and ACT could have governed alone; he fact that he did that, no doubtedly, helps his respectability.

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  4. Human Rights took a real beating under Labour. It’s why I figure the Greens to be closer to the Centre than the Blue or Red Party.
    Which means they (we) are in a position to form a real alternative for people – I would expect the Green vote to increase exponentially, especially as people grow disenchanted with right wing elitism during a financial squeeze.
    Amongst other great comedic stories my friends have taken home o/s, is the vege thief being DNA’d – I told them that we’re gonna computer chip our carrots etc so we can track whose stomach they may illegally have landed. The worst part being, they’re not sure if I’m joking.
    A lot have NZ’ers have worked real hard to make this ‘unworkable’ treaty into some sort of redress for our Maori and the Land grabs they have endured.
    They are to be congratulated.

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  5. Part of the reason for Moari and National getting on is this:

    Foreshore and seabed deal could close beaches

    A new deal under the controversial Foreshore and Seabed Act will allow Maori to ban other New Zealanders from some East Cape beaches.

    The deal between the Crown and Ngati Porou would enable the iwi to close some coastal areas, veto use of the coast for commercial reasons, set fishing regulations, impose fines of up to $5000 on those who
    fail to comply, and change place names.

    The agreement, covering the East Cape from Opotiki to Gisborne, would also allow about 50 hapu to designate some areas “wahi tapu” or sacred.

    Both National and the Maori Party opposed the 2004 foreshore law but now ministers from both parties were set to sign the deal this month.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/print/4822522a11.html

    National/ Act Moari Party support elite-est (personalised beach and bays) “property rights” egged on by those for whom money is no problem. The Greens believe Maaori will live in love and harmony once the capitalist system is destroyed.

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  6. “the Labour Government rather cynically threw standard operating procedures to the wind, when it permitted the launch of Operation 8, raided a small community with US Marines-style weapons and tactics, some of which proved to be not legal in NZ law, to their surprise.”

    “Operation 8″ presented a hand mirror to the “Peace” Movement: “very disturbing activities”… Solicitor General.

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  7. Matty, you would find it hard to find a more elitist structure than practiced in traditional Maori society. The elders call all the shots, and everybody else tows the line.

    What’s wrong with elites, anyway. This blog is elitist (frog decides the topics, and censors at will), you have two party leaders….

    >>It’s why I figure the Greens to be closer to the Centre than the Blue or Red Party

    They should be, but they’re not. They’re Labour p******, sitting out on the f*r left, just as ACT is to National. Nandor wasn’t listened to, and you’re paying the price.

    Br*dford as co-leader will finish the party off for good….

    >>as people grow disenchanted with right wing elitism during a financial squeeze

    People want money in their pockets. Green policy would ensure NZ makes a lot less of it, so I find it difficult to see why people would vote for even less money during a financial squeeze.

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  8. No need to release the post. I’ve self-censored.

    Your filter words are very curious, frog…

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  9. “What’s wrong with elites, anyway. This blog is elitist (frog decides the topics, and censors at will), you have two party leaders….”

    because people are too successful at advantaging themselves at others expense.

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  10. That’s life.

    Some people are a lot more capable than others, and some people are adult babies.

    Curious to see Bra*ford is classed as a swear word. Are the left and environmental factions within the Greens further apart than we thought? ;)

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  11. Well there are Laws protecting people from verbal abuse and violence. I suspect Frog was doing the right thing by all parties (yes, you too).
    Nothing wrong with Elites; – yet apply some simple physics laws.
    They are by nature divisive, often adversorial.
    New Zealand is to small to split itself asunder.
    If we want a working vibrant country we’ll need Unity, not separatism.

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  12. PS – and that ‘tall-poppy syndrome’s gotta go guys.
    2-0 up in the Cricket and there’s no hard feelings here; the best team won.
    Duty calls – talk amongst yrselves willya – sorry I’ll have to miss the fun!! regards

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  13. “That’s life.

    Some people are a lot more capable than others,”

    capability may relate to take over of resources rather than wealth creation… freeloadership.
    ………………..
    and some people are adult babies. ”

    the people who bought leaky homes

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  14. Elites are simply part of human nature. Same with the animal kingdom. Intrinsic.

    >>If we want a working vibrant country we’ll need Unity, not separatism.

    Too simplistic.

    Elites can help create unity i.e. someone has to lead. Ghandi, for example. A doctor helps communities continue to exist, yet we don’t want any idiot becoming a doctor. That would create chaos, not unity.

    >>capability may relate to take over of resources rather than wealth creation… freeloadership.

    Plenty of freeloaders at every level.

    “Elite” is often used pejoratively. However, we should be encouraging beneficial elites i.e. CERN

    It is pointless pretending everyone is of equal worth to society, because that will never be true.

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  15. Mark

    If we want a working vibrant country we’ll need Unity, not separatism.

    Wonder if Maori sovereignty leaders might disagree with you Mark?

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  16. Not all elites of the same quality. Some use dubious means to keep their privileged positions. Groups such as the Property Council fund the main political parties to optimise the chances of favourable policies. In addition they use PR companies to make a bug look like a rose and advertising revenue insures the media tread lightly where their interests are threatened.
    Successful property investors are (to a varying degree) capable parasites.

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  17. Wonder if Maori sovereignty leaders might disagree with you Mark?
    ………
    Touche!

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  18. Most people want to feel that the beaches are public property not Holy Moari. The idea of anything else is anathema. And don’t forget Maaori is a “cultural identity” (the stockman’s classification is “highly offensive”…. ).

    One thing that comes through on Waitangi Day discussion is that Moari point of view is that settlements are what they can get for now. Tariana Turia says 1/2 of 1% so as far as settling Treaty claims go we are only giving them the cents part not the dollars. It all adds up to no agreement in reality and farcical posturing (as in “celebrate Waitangi”).

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  19. >>Successful property investors are (to a varying degree) capable parasites.

    I’m a property investor.

    For example, I provide a luxury apartment to Embassy staff. Because embassy staff are on limited term contracts, it would be wasteful for them to buy and sell each time they are assigned. So they rent.

    Why is providing a needed service (fixed term, luxury accommodation) being a “parasite”?

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  20. “They should be, but they’re not. They’re Labour p******, sitting out on the f*r left, just as ACT is to National. Nandor wasn’t listened to, and you’re paying the price.”

    Very nice to see this huge display of support for Nandor, BP. Nandor the centrist – love it! You don’t know his politics very well, then. You should go read some of his speeches to cure your ignorance. Nandor’s argument was about political strategy regarding the Nats, not Green Party principles or policies which he supported fully.

    Br*dford as co-leader will finish the party off for good….”

    You haven’t resorted to hyperbole for a while BP. We’re hardly on our last legs to start with and we’ll just have to see where the membership decides to take us.

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  21. >>Very nice to see this huge display of support for Nandor, BP.

    I didn’t agree with his politics, but he always seemed like a likeable, smart guy to me. Certainly charismatic. I might be wrong about his positioning, but wasn’t he arguing for a more co-operate stance?

    >>to see where the membership decides to take us.

    Where they’re told to, probably….. ;)

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  22. For example, I provide a luxury apartment to Embassy staff. Because embassy staff are on limited term contracts, it would be wasteful for them to buy and sell each time they are assigned. So they rent.

    Why is providing a needed service (fixed term, luxury accommodation) being a “parasite”?
    …………..
    Starting at the beginning using other peoples money and gearing while relying on inflation to build a portfolio so that you live in a free hold house while others pay you to live in theirs makes one a parasite as you have contributed little and your tenants make up the difference by the sweat of their hands.

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  23. “Starting at the beginning using other peoples money and gearing while relying on inflation to build a portfolio so that you live in a free hold house while others pay you to live in theirs makes one a parasite as you have contributed little and your tenants make up the difference by the sweat of their hands.”

    jh, let us imagine that all landlords suddenly vanished tommorrow. What would happen to all those people who cannot afford to buy their own homes?

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  24. “I didn’t agree with his politics, but he always seemed like a likeable, smart guy to me.”

    I can vouch for that. Nandor is really a very deep thinker and thoughtful person.

    “I might be wrong about his positioning, but wasn’t he arguing for a more co-operate stance?”

    Yes, in the first instance that we should be conceptually open to any sort of relationship with anyone else. How far he’d have taken an actual agreement with the Nats is impossible to tell, but while he wanted to be pragmatic, he would not I believe take any action that would fundamentally compromise Green principles.

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  25. >>while relying on inflation to build a portfolio so that you live in a free hold house while others pay you to live in theirs makes one a parasite as you have contributed little and your tenants make up the difference by the sweat of their hands.

    Bull.

    I paid for my properties by working.

    I’m the one taking all the risk. The tenants carry no risk and no maintenance concerns. The alternative is for them to buy and sell property every two years, which would cost them considerably more (fees etc), whilst exposing them to risk and overhead.

    In short, they get a better deal renting from me.

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  26. >>What would happen to all those people who cannot afford to buy their own homes?

    Not to mention people who don’t want to, even though they can.

    To continue with my example, the embassies aren’t stupid, and whilst they usually own the ambassadors residence, the support staff are almost always renters. They’ve done their calculations, and the cost of ownership exceeds the cost of renting, not to mention being inflexible. Same goes for any company that transfers staff on short-medium term assignments.

    It would be hard to have significant workforce mobility if you didn’t have a rental market.

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  27. I paid for my properties by working.
    ………..
    a lot of investors put down a small amount of their own money using other peoples or created credit and build up a large portfolio. You could call them smart but they are still parasites.

    “jh, let us imagine that all landlords suddenly vanished tommorrow. What would happen to all those people who cannot afford to buy their own homes?”

    What if Ceaser came to town and said “you b**gers have had a good innings you can give up those properties and I’ll give them to your tenants (the worthy ones) as they haven’t been having a good time and it’s about time their lives were easier”?

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  28. >>It is pointless pretending everyone is of equal worth to society, because that will never be true.

    BP I’m starting to see what you mean by this, -jh goes too far; the elite investors arent completely unnecessary, its just that the work they do isnt as worthy as that of other people.

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  29. I’m not saying people shouldn’t be landlords or own motels; they just shouldn’t be able to do it to the degree that it has been done over the past few decades (or decade) using asset inflation. This has created a breed of skilled rat whose real value to society is zero (or minus).

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  30. JH you are wasting your breath, the housing bubble is dead in NZ, yes for the past few years house prices were suffering massive inflation and some people made lots of money, don’t worry it will come back down to normal levels you can’t hide from realitiy forever.

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  31. >>assett inflation

    And a lot of those people will soon have their *** handed to them on a plate, because they are over-leveraged. They took the risk, and now they must pay for that risk.

    One of my tenants, who’s two-year term is nearly up, has done very well from asset deflation. Had he bought – rather than rented – two years ago, and sold now, he would have lost a lot of money. But he hasn’t.

    When I lived overseas, I rented houses. Suited me fine. Buying them would have presented far too much risk.

    Cuts both ways.

    New home owners will soon be able to enter the market again. Rates and prices are falling.

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  32. >>This has created a breed of skilled rat whose real value to society is zero

    The same could be argued for many professions. Why pick on investors?

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  33. turnip28 Says:

    JH you are wasting your breath, the housing bubble is dead in NZ,
    ………..
    I think though that the government is doing all it can to protect the property sector versus keeping houses cheaper for NZr’s and if you can’t measure it, it doesn’t exist or spin will define it.

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  34. While I heartily agree with jh that the tax man’s bias in favour of property has certainly created a whole tranche of “unskilled rats”, I have to agree with BP that it’s not representative of the whole market, and that a rental market is a very necessary beast indeed. Consequentially, so are landlords, a.k.a. property investors. Why single them out? I have far less time for those who speculate with other peoples money, with nary an asset to back them up.

    BP – I have just checked the moderation queue and the spam bucket, and both are empty. So I don’t know about your fears of censorship. but they didn’t happen here. (Except for exorcising IceBaby [and others] for lack of a valid email address, you sly dog.)

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  35. The same could be argued for many professions. Why pick on investors?
    …………
    because they operate where we live and their behaviour is often despicable.

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  36. Kind of relevant to Titiriti as Moari (in those times) may have felt the same sort of contempt as time opened their to the bad deals they had made.

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  37. frog Says:
    “While I heartily agree with jh that the tax man’s bias in favour of property has certainly created a whole tranche of “unskilled rats”,”

    That’s “skilled Rats” Frog i.e people who froth at the mouth when they smell capital gains and know all the tricks (and) as in “everyone has their real estate agent story”.

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  38. Frog,

    Thanks, but I can assure you my posts were disappearing.

    I once resorted to an alternate id (IceBaby) because nothing I posted under BluePeter would show up.

    In the above example, I assumed it was a word filer, especially when I used *** , it resulted in a successful post. Perhaps there is another issue. Losing the session? Database losing connection occasionally?

    Odd, certainly. Never came across it in a WordPress blog before.

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  39. >>people who froth at the mouth when they smell capital gains

    You’ve never collected interest, then.

    >>the government is doing all it can to protect the property sector versus keeping houses cheaper

    It’s a land supply issue.

    The tax treatment doesn’t help, but it isn’t the cause. Just watch what happens in the next couple of years – we’ve got a housing shortage bubbling up right now.

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  40. >>because they operate where we live and their behaviour is often despicable.

    So is that of some politicians, but I wouldn’t tar them all with the same brush.

    As I’ve pointed out, a rental market is an economic good. It is necessary. It provides real value for renters. It provides me with a vehicle for retirement savings (I do not trust the goverment to pay me a pension by the time I’m 65).

    You appear to be placing a lot of emphasis on the buy n flick crowd, but they aren’t representative of the entire market.

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  41. Broken link…

    Owen makes a good case for the land scarcity issue.

    Every country has had a property boom, capital gains tax or not.

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  42. jh,

    There are a number of factors at play, one of which is New Zealand investors. Scared by the stock market since 1988, and encouraged by favorable government tax treatment, the favored investment vehicle for ma and pa has been housing. Let’s not forget the high personal tax rates, and limited opportunities for tax write-offs in this country.

    Owen linked to a report a while back (I can’t find it) about Houston, which hasn’t seen the huge price spikes and falls. Houston doesn’t have government-induced supply issues.

    We’ve had easy credit.

    We’ve had councils and excessive levels of red-tape adding to the building cost.

    Qualified tradesman, in scarce supply and protected by council legal requirements, have been charging lawyer rates. I had a quote to paint a hall, three rooms and a few door frames. $24K. That was during the “gold rush”. The same job now was quoted at 4K, which I accepted.

    We’re a nation of immigrants, and the flow continues.

    The structure of our society is changing, but our housing supply is slow to catch up. More people live alone, in couples, have divorces, etc. Meanwhile, our housing stock consists mostly of three bedroom family houses.

    The common problem I can see is supply.

    PS: We will always need a rental market.

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  43. Oh, frog, the joys of an OSS filter on WP.

    BP has admitted to his attempts to circumvent the filters, and proved my suspicion that IceBaby was a regular of the usual sort of troll.

    Who else got caught in the insecticide? (my name for that which cleans up the web regularly, saving effort on behalf of spiders…)

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  44. >>BP has admitted to his attempts to circumvent the filters, and proved my suspicion that IceBaby was a regular of the usual sort of troll.

    Wow, what detective work, given I’ve openly “admitted” it on a number of occasions, and once again above without prompting, and explained why. It has something to do with the database, as Frog has explained it isn’t the filters.

    So what’s your point?

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  45. BP is just from the other end of opinion and even if we have paid shills/ PR people (not suggesting he is) it shouldn’t matter as long as the argument is lucid. I get the feeling that there may be an element that cannot argue (ie they are beyond it). Left- right wingness are behavioural traits which have been shown to be inherited in studies of identical twins. The progressive elements in the Green Party should be wary.

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  46. Please try again. I have no idea what you mean, particularly as “progressive” is a term that usually refers to people on the left of the spectrum.

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  47. Not just one problem. That is pretty good agreement BP.

    Construction of new housing on the urban fringe and ever more distant outlying suburbs does NOT stack up well unless there is transit investment to make those ‘burbs accessible. When that infrastructure is built the ‘burbs appear whether planned for or not. Land use restrictions CAN prevent that from happening, but suburbs of McMansions were being built 100 miles from Los Angeles, because most of the nearer available “land” was not suitable for building.

    Glad you brought up the protection of the building trades. That’s one that has been scaring me for some time. Only a “Master Builder” is allowed to build houses. A monopoly position. The nature of the failure of that same group in terms of the leaky-homes leads me to have little faith in their “qualifications” to design or supervise the construction of any house I would like to live in. Their connections make it impossible for me to get rid of them.

    BJ

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  48. Yep, bjchip.

    These regulations haven’t given us a better standard of housing, they just make houses more expensive to build.

    A prime example of why we should uphold property rights, and why more government control is such a terrible idea.

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  49. # Valis Says:

    Please try again. I have no idea what you mean, particularly as “progressive” is a term that usually refers to people on the left of the spectrum.
    ……………
    Green usually refers to the environmental movement but “progressive” is in the eye of the beholder.

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  50. “MPs are elected by the people. To have the secret service spying on them is hugely anti-democratic,” said Green Party co-leader Jeanette Fitzsimons.

    Locke himself came a distant 4th with only 7% of the epsom electorate vote – what planet is she on?

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  51. What planet indeed. Do tell us then, in a democracy, how big a vote should an MP have to get to expect not to be spied upon?

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  52. Back to topic…
    How dare a group(s) presume to sign a contract in perpetuity.
    The Treaty, ANY treaty, should always have a sunset clause, say 100 years.
    How can anyone presume to know the future and the demographic/economy/politics/religion etc of a future society?
    I say settle the historic claims then RIP THE TREATY UP! Then draw up a new one, with sunset clause and a clause requiring Treaty/Constitution #3 to be established at that time.
    My (suggested) first clause of Treaty #2…
    All born New Zealanders shall be deemed “Tangata Whenua”
    A further clause (not clause 2)…
    The foreshore and seabed cannot be owned.
    I’d invite you fallas and fallesses to submit your clauses…

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  53. Must be galling to be spied upon by a government with whom the Greens had a confidence and supply agreement.

    And Labour were the Greens prefered party at the last election.

    In three years time will this be swept under the table and will the Greens support Labour once again?

    Maybe the Greens should see ALL the confidential files held by the SIS prior to signing a confidence and supply agreement with Labour next time.

    Just as well National got in this last election, Labour might have kept it quiet for far longer.

    Spying on a MP whose party has provided confidence and supply. Must be the lowest of the low. Hopefully the Greens will have learned the lesson. Dont trust those Labour people.

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  54. Samiam,
    While I agree that the treaty is a big problem, there is no way in this world that the likes of Turia and her brigade of racists will ever agree to allowing non-maori New Zealanders the same rights, entitlements, and standing as maori New Zealanders. A large portion simply see themselves as superior to us, I say us despite being of maori lineage myself as I am not so stupid as to beleive that or to be proud of coming from the same line as those whom do.
    Ive got an exam midday today, but i will work on a proposal after that. What ive got worked out so far isint so different to the irish system, except with a maori elected head of state not to different to a less potent governer general.

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  55. “Must be galling to be spied upon by a government with whom the Greens had a confidence and supply agreement.”

    I’m not one to take a PM’s word on such things, but it is quite possible that Clark really didn’t know. The main problem here is likely that the SIS is a law unto its own.

    “In three years time will this be swept under the table and will the Greens support Labour once again?”

    As someone who’s complained we are too rigid re National, are you really suggesting we should become more so with Labour?

    “Maybe the Greens should see ALL the confidential files held by the SIS prior to signing a confidence and supply agreement with Labour next time.”

    No doubt.

    “Just as well National got in this last election, Labour might have kept it quiet for far longer.

    Spying on a MP whose party has provided confidence and supply. Must be the lowest of the low. Hopefully the Greens will have learned the lesson. Dont trust those Labour people.”

    You sure are one-eyed. Why is it that Key will only say that he also wasn’t told of the spying? He’s jumped on every other bungle of Labour’s without hesitation. I would expect him to call for an investigation at least, but he seems unwilling. Maybe we need to get those files next time to make sure the Nats haven’t just continued what Labour started.

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  56. Is anyone really surprised Locke was being watched? Is Keith?

    During the cold war, the SIS wouldn’t be doing their job if they didn’t keep an eye on those potentially sympathetic agitators who might be points of contact.

    Granted it’s a bit odd they’ve kept doing so of late, but then I guess you’d better ask your “preferred partner” why that was. Remind us who the SIS reported to, again?

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  57. No MP should be watched without very good reason and I’d expect the Minister in charge to know and approve. The cold war ended 20 years ago and if there was a reason to watch Keith then, it does not justify SIS actions since he became an MP, particularly given they never found anything to suggest he was actually a threat. As I said above, that the SIS can do what it wants is the main worry, as well as that Key doesn’t seem concerned.

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  58. >>it does not justify SIS actions since he became an MP

    That’s what i said. I’d be interested to know the reason why.

    Perhaps Helen can tell you that since you were “preferred partners” during the time… ;) With friends like these…

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  59. And like I said:

    “I’m not one to take a PM’s word on such things, but it is quite possible that Clark really didn’t know. The main problem here is likely that the SIS is a law unto its own.”

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  60. It’s possible, I guess.

    Are you saying the SIS aren’t answerable to anyone?

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  61. No. In theory there are processes that should provide accountability, but as the nature of their work is national security it is naturally more secretive and open to abuse. This means the PM as Minister responsible needs to be on top of things and be able to assure the public their rights aren’t being abused. Key seems to have missed this.

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  62. “There can be no doubt that the Treaty is the founding document of our nation…”

    Come off it, Frog! How can a treaty that gurantees tino rangatiratanga and Maori possession of their lands be the founding document of a nation built on British systems and British law, and which operates in the English language? The New Zealand state ignored, wrote off and re-wrote the Treaty and never gave it any legal standing.

    If you really want a statement to found “our nation” on, you might dig around the days after the invasion of the Waikato – I’m sure some colonist said “We’re in charge now and that’s that” or words to that effect.

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  63. If Keith is high on the SIS watchlist then that’s a great endorsement of how harmless us kiwis really are! I’d say his file makes for pretty boring reading.

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  64. ““There can be no doubt that the Treaty is the founding document of our nation…”

    Utter rubbish.

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  65. >>Key seems to have missed this.

    Helen, you mean.

    Bit rich to point the finger at Key as he’s only just taken over the job. However, i would like to hear the answer, in due course.

    >>We’re in charge now and that’s that”

    That’s pretty much the size of it. The Europeans won, and there is no turning the clock back. That’s not to say compensation isn’t in order, but Tino Rangatiratanga is never going to happen. Nor should it. Nor can it.

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  66. For example, can we roll back the land taken by one tribe, who conquered some other tribe?

    Same thing.

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  67. Valis

    No. In theory there are processes that should provide accountability, but as the nature of their work is national security it is naturally more secretive and open to abuse. This means the PM as Minister responsible needs to be on top of things and be able to assure the public their rights aren’t being abused. Key seems to have missed this.

    What you are saying is that Helen Clark, if she knew about the Keith locke dossier, did not deem it worthy enough to share that information with his parliamentary party even thought the Greens gave them confidence and supply.

    Or she did not know, in which case she was grossly incompetent.

    Alternatively the SIS is much more secretive then it is legal allowed to be (no doubt your stance)

    If the last case is true (and that would not be good thing) how do you expect John Key to know about it if it was so secret that the SIS did not even tell Helen Clark?

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  68. No MP should be watched without very good reason

    Hard to argue that one should start a file on an 11 year old, and it is hard to argue that Keith is currently a danger to the country, Greens would have to be an effective political force in government for there to be any risk… or benefit… to someone trying to turn him.

    HOWEVER, the SIS isn’t in the business of “guessing” whether there is a risk. You don’t judge military risk by what you think your opponent will do but by what he/she CAN do, and you work with worst case planning.

    There are likely to be SIS files on a fair few people, and many who are not anything like left of center. It is their job to watch. No matter how boring it is to do so. Moreover, once there is a file, there will ALWAYS be a file.

    Why worry about it?

    BJ

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  69. “That’s pretty much the size of it. The Europeans won, and there is no turning the clock back. ”

    I’m sure the Arabs said that after they conquered Spain. So its fine for Maori to try and reconquer the country then? Or have the Europeans chnged the rules now that they are winning (as usual)?

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  70. Sure, go for it.

    Methinks all would lose a lot more than they stand to gain, which is why they can’t be bothered.

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  71. Gerrit – You are perpetuating the myth that the Greens gave Labour confidence and supply. It’s simply not true.

    As for Clark being in the dark, well, I am not surprised. This is the basis for Locke’s call for greater oversight of the SIS. If even the Minister doesn’t know, then there is no democratic oversight. The state isn’t even watching over the state!

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  72. “>>Key seems to have missed this.

    Helen, you mean.

    Bit rich to point the finger at Key as he’s only just taken over the job. However, i would like to hear the answer, in due course. ”

    BP, I think you know I’ve said nothing blaming Key for what’s past. But he’s the Minister responsible now and as such is the only politician with the authority to take any action. Yes, Helen missed it too (perhaps), but she’s not PM any more, as I’m sure you’ve noticed.

    “Alternatively the SIS is much more secretive then it is legal allowed to be (no doubt your stance)

    If the last case is true (and that would not be good thing) how do you expect John Key to know about it if it was so secret that the SIS did not even tell Helen Clark?”

    Gerrit, I’ve only commented on what Key should have done AFTER he discovered what happened.

    “Why worry about it?”

    BJ, to quote Keith:

    “By targeting dissenters on so many issues, the SIS has been undermining the free and open debate we need in a democratic society. New Zealanders will be constrained from participating in dissenting groups if they feel there careers might be endangered by them ending up on SIS files.”

    I would just add that any government group given the mandate to act with little public oversight needs what oversight it does get to be taken very seriously. Unwarranted surveillance from the state is a serious matter.

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  73. Valis,

    John Key has announced an enquiry.

    Be interesting to see if that enquiry implicates Helen Clark?

    So kudos where they are due?

    Frog,

    Now confidence and supply is a myth. Pray tell what the Green party arrangementts were!

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  74. The enquires will report to Key? And he will report to the public and it will all be transparent, right Gerrit?

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  75. “John Key has announced an enquiry. … So kudos where they are due?”

    Great news. Glad he came around. Hope it leads to some changes.

    “Now confidence and supply is a myth. Pray tell what the Green party arrangementts were!”

    Gerrit, not a myth at all, but “Giving confidence and supply” means voting for, as the Greens did only from 99-02. 02-05 we voted against and 05-08 we abstained, which was never actually needed to keep Labour in power.

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  76. “Gerrit, not a myth at all, but “Giving confidence and supply” means voting for, as the Greens did only from 99-02. 02-05 we voted against and 05-08 we abstained, which was never actually needed to keep Labour in power.”

    05-08 was eventually necessary to keep Labour in power; Labour + New Zealand First + United Future + Jim Anderton initially equalled 61. With the loss of Field and Copeland, that became 59, and so Labour needed the Greens’ abstention to remain in power.

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  77. Yes, techincally you are tright, tyhere was no formal agreement. This from

    http://www.decisionmaker.co.nz/guide2005/hpw%2005/hpw_05_index.html

    Helen Clark emphasised the need for the negotiations to produce stable government for her third term in office. To achieve her goal she received committments from NZ First and United Future to support the Labour-Progressive coalition on confidence and supply, and Green Party committment to abstain on such motions that can topple a government.

    Sorts that out.

    Still if it makes all happy, there was no confidence and supply agreement. Just an agreement to abstain. Which in specific terms is the same as.

    Hello, Labour do what you like, we will abtain, therefore you have confidence and supply by proxy.

    Myth and spin.

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  78. No you’re both wrong. Re 05-08, there was a formal agreement. That was to abstain in return for a lengthy coop agreement. But never once did a confidence or supply vote ever depend on that abstention as both Field and Copeland gave Labour their C&S votes.

    Frog is only pedantic about this as those who assume it to be the case that our vote was required for Labour to govern tend to leap to the next conclusion that we could have pulled them down at any time but refused to. This just isn’t true.

    As for the comment:
    “Hello, Labour do what you like, we will abtain, therefore you have confidence and supply by proxy.”

    This shows extreme political naivety. Firstly, no party goes into a C&S agreement of any sort lightly, as the public has shown it greatly dislikes the political instability that results from deals falling apart. Both parties get punished, usually the smaller party more. Second, put the shoe on the other foot. What do you think it would it take for Act to break their agreement with the Nats if it would cause another election or throw power to Labour (assumes the MP were not part of the coalition of course). Before the election, Rodney said they’d support the Nats no matter what. No one ever calls them patsies for that, though it goes far beyond anything the Greens ever promised.

    That doesn’t mean there is nothing that will ruin a deal, as the Alliance situation shows, not to mention NZF in the late 90′s. But you don’t throw your toys out of the cot without extreme provocation.

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  79. who makes laws that are unworkable, so letting boy racers run around is a more important issue (ie who leaves holes in the net)

    If the Greens were honest (given the ecological principle is No 1) membership and leadership would be across the board (it isn’t). Why the preponderance of the sort of people who would attract the interest of the SIS?

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  80. Issues of peace and human rights are hugely important to Greens. Unfortunately, such topics strike fear into even democratic governments who often feel all such people must be watched.

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  81. If our servants confiscate out rights, then we are truly an upside down country. Helen’s memory is, above all else, convenient.

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  82. # Valis Says:
    February 10th, 2009 at 7:28 am

    Issues of peace and human rights are hugely important to Greens. Unfortunately, such topics strike fear into even democratic governments who often feel all such people must be watched.
    ………..
    Do you means green as in environmentalist or are we smudging the meaning?

    Bin Laden was tracked when someone bought a sattelite phone for him. His calls were monitored from the same network you want to close down.
    Your sort of peace is about your enemy laying down arms; it just so happens your enemy is the state you are in.

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  83. “Do you means green as in environmentalist or are we smudging the meaning?”

    I thought we had a convention here jh. Green = party member. green = environmentalist. Though I can assure you there are many, many environmentalists that have strong concerns for peace and human rights issues, as the lack of either makes environmental issues impossible to solve.

    “Bin Laden was tracked when someone bought a sattelite phone for him. His calls were monitored from the same network you want to close down.”

    bin Laden yet runs free, if I remember right. Surely a VERY different approach is needed, as was argued by many at the time I might add.

    “Your sort of peace is about your enemy laying down arms; it just so happens your enemy is the state you are in.”

    I can barely follow your stream of consciousness. My sort of peace is not monolithic and is as much about not provoking non-enemies into picking up arms. People who truly intend to do us harm should be tracked and prevented from doing so. Those who simply have political gripes but have never shown a tendency toward violence should not have thick files. You’d think the SIS would have been able to figure out which group Keith is in decades ago.

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  84. “Wonder if Maori sovereignty leaders might disagree with you Mark?” (Feb 7th; Gerrit, JH)

    Announce I’m going on holiday and your arguments become rhetoric (not to mention cowardly).
    Do you guys even see the fractious Racism you carry like a Plague
    Yeah reckon I could find workable common ground – why not – they are only responding to what they have been given by fractious mendacious thieves.
    Maori have always been better Diplomats than Pakeha – read your history.

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  85. Mark,

    Oh Dear, upset are we. Yes play your racist card. Always works? Not on me.

    Your racist card?

    Maori have always been better Diplomats than Pakeha – read your history.

    Cowardly?

    You the only one able to put forward a differing opnion?

    Still if that is your exuse, good for you.

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  86. Frog

    “Maori have always been better Diplomats than Pakeha – read your history”

    The above comment is clearly racist, will you censure Mark for making it or are there different rules for Green party supporters?

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  87. >>Maori have always been better Diplomats than Pakeha

    Whites have always been better Diplomats than [insert very bad word beginning with "n" here]

    Racist garbage, Mark.

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  88. Truth Hurts Don’t it.
    If that clever treaty were really ratified – you’d be dialing up from the Chatams….outfought and outhought.
    Sorry Frog – I just can’t resist ‘em

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  89. Mark,
    If the treaty was ratified in the present situation a civil war would take place; and the maori, at about 15% of the populaton and even less of the resources, would not be the victors.
    If the maori put up an actual defence to pakeha invasion back-when, given that pakeha knew many of the valuable resources this land offers, do you really think there would be any maori today? The last time that happened the aborigional population was wiped down to the low double didgets.

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  90. Hey Sapient! What is a ‘race card’??? You’ll probably know.
    I owe an apology for addressing you in the masculine wheras ‘Person’ is all I know – however, did I use an unpc term or was it the sentiment the trolls didn’t like?
    Yes the Prospects are thankfully unthinkable – but having just stepped off Australia after 20 years I find it hard to equate the aborigine and maori situation in the same tome.
    All they have in common is the british army.
    Can provide you with endless details on the difference.
    When one arrives in a new environment, certain things stand out more clearly than they do to the person who lives with them everyday.
    NZ sure has it’s share of uptight dudes.
    Actually if you research Titokowaru’s Life – you’ll find he had the english settlers all set up to leave Wellington and return to Australia, returning NZ to polynesia.
    The history is there – profoundly so. Too bad you can’t ask Mr King – but his books will tell it (from memory).
    No – Te Rauparaha lived on Kapiti – but Titokowaru kept all the land he won. And that, not losing a battle, was a lot of land.
    Incidentally, I’m not maori myself and have no interest in promoting one point of view over another.
    Anyway, it’s a fascinating story.

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  91. Mark,
    The ‘race card’ is an appeal to the fallacy of ‘race’; the concepts that different populations of humans divided by physical traits, usually skin colour, have fundimental qualitative differences. Often with an associated or implied superiority or entitlement.
    As applied to the pakeha of New Zealand this generally refers to the history of colonialism and oppresion often implimented at the hands of pakeha, both within NZ and internationally, against indiginous populations. It is often used by the likes of pakeha appologists or maori to state the maori deserving of recompence for the actions of the past. The likes of Tariana Turia are known to use this ‘card’ for their own personal endevours or to obtain political power.
    With application to NZ maori this card generally refers to the higher crime rates, higher unemployment rates, lower academic accheivement, and higher abuse rates among portions of the population identifying as maori.

    I was refering specificly to the aborigonies of tasmania rather than australia as a whole, though i suppose the vital difference is that maori were far more versed in the arts of war; though the tasmanian aborigionies did hold their own for a substantial period despite the major technologial differences, so that may have made neglible difference.

    I am male, though i have no idea what non-pc term you may be refering to as nothing pops out at me; but then again i pay very little attention to pc bull$h!t. Though “fractious mendacious thieves” could be offensive i guess, and technically incorrect since much of the land was accually purchased or taken in armed conflict; both of which being entirly valid ways of aquiring land. Though granted there was a significant portion seized by the crown without justification.

    If one really cares about obtaining the best outcome for society then i dont think that ones ethnicity really matters much as from an objective standpoint it is fairly obvious which posistions wont result well. I am of te ati awa (wai pounamu), i stand to benefit personally from any advantages bestowed apon maori (though granted a portion of my iwi’s land [what is now nelson] was accually purchased) but i consider ethnic inequality to have a detrimental result for society as a whole and as such i oppose any such inequalities.

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  92. Ah! Thank you – have to return to my life shortly, and will give this further thought – plus some ideas one would hope…I wis referring to land legally and illegally, including mendacious legality, seized and not returned.
    Have no issue with the Treaty – the best of British Legal minds say it’s unworkable – I tend to agree.
    I wiz talkin about your description of ‘Freedom’ with Frog – find the thread and we’re there, though to be fair, I had more to say; and referred to you as ‘He’, and then thought, ‘My God Lord Dummy, Sapient may be a very insulted female.
    OK yeah – I gots me a ‘Race Card’ to play then; if we are finished with the brutish stick of Colonialism, why then, are our jails full of Maori?
    Will need more time to discuss the Aborigine – but their attempted wipeout was facilitated by geography.
    Victorias Aborigine are extinct too.
    New Zealand is (was) bushy and mountainous – Australia – flat as Taupo at dawn.
    Couldn’t get Te Rauparaha off Kapiti (except by mendacity – a lure if you will) cos the cannon of the day couldn’t do much about it’s height. And charging that far uphill? Forget it.
    In Australia – the terrain lent itself to horseback and the Army could stay out for months at a time, riding down and killing every black they found – no joke.
    Visited Battle Mountain here recently and it is comparitively ‘impossible’ terrain.
    No I’m not a separatist/elitist/ethnicist either (but our Govt. is – i tried to explain i was was ethnically a NZ’er again yesterday; Nope – not allowed; pick something else. “Other” perhaps-?);
    but what brought us to this conversation originally, was me calling for NZ Unity – and being scoffed at by trolls who insisted Maori would not be in it.
    And then went on to call me a racist -well ha – I don’t respond to non-Green Supporters; unless I feel like tellin ‘em to water their horse elsewhere.
    Think you’ll make a great Doc – regards mark

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  93. Frog:
    “There can be no doubt that the Treaty is the founding document of our nation…”

    Sam Buchanan Says:
    Come off it, Frog! How can a treaty that gurantees tino rangatiratanga and Maori possession of their lands be the founding document of a nation built on British systems and British law, and which operates in the English language? The New Zealand state ignored, wrote off and re-wrote the Treaty and never gave it any legal standing.

    Mark Says:
    Have no issue with the Treaty – the best of British Legal minds say it’s unworkable – I tend to agree.

    Key Principles

    * Te Tiriti o Waitangi is a fundamental constitutional document.
    [and]
    Affirming and supporting Kaitiakitanga

    * Recognise ancestral land ownership and kaitiakitanga in rural areas.
    * Support an increased role for mana whenua as kaitiaki of their rohe. [tribal area as prior 1840]
    * Support the return to iwi sites within the Conservation Estate that are of high value to tangata whenua, such as waahi tapu.
    * Reject the use of the Conservation Estate as a cheap source of land for Treaty settlements. [private land?]
    * Fund a process to enable tangata whenua to exercise their kaitiakitanga over the marine environment, including their customary and commercial fishing resources.
    * Require regional councils to recognise the kaitiaki role of hapu when developing regional coastal plans and aquaculture management areas.

    Nuts! :roll:

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  94. Green Party of >the people of> the geographical area of> Aoeotearo NZ> who are a) tangata whenua and b) tangata tiritti*

    *the best of British Legal minds say it’s unworkable
    Dick Heads :mad:

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