by frog
Last week’s Business Herald had a feature article about the future of shipping. I covered the recent success of Beluga SkySails in a related post last year, so I followed up on the E/S Orcelle part of the story.
The Orcelle is a concept Green Ship that incorporates all the latest renewable, fuel cell and hull efficiency technology under one design. It’s a showcase of what is possible rather than an actual working design. It’s fascinating. The idea of zero emissions shipping, as fantastic as it seems today, would make a significant contribution to a truly sustainable global economy.
As an avid sailor, I cannot get enough of this stuff. How about you?
Published in Economy, Work, & Welfare | Environment & Resource Management by frog on Sat, January 31st, 2009
Tags: beluga skysail, E/S Orcelle, renewable, shipping
on the trolls and those who are unable to keep on topic
This is a much more plausable technological project then the stupid kite sail (have they sold a 1000 sq metre one commercially yet. my $200 donation to charity is still on offer when there is a commercial version actually sold and used consistantly for 12 months)
Interesting that they think it is most suited as a car carrier!
Be hard to make it into a bulk carrier as most of the cargo weight would be above the water instead of in the water were it acts as ballast and a stabilising dead weight.
This would be a most uncomfortable ship to sail on (like catamerans) with its cargo weight so far above the waterline.
Still, a good start by a shipping company that knows it stuff.
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They may have chosen to start with a car carrier because a car carrier can be loaded and unloaded without the derricks and other aerial structures that would interfere with the sails, and without having to expose the top surface of the cargo area which would be covered by the sails when they are parked.
Trevor.
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I think they are going to need more solar panels, covering the sides and top surfaces, such as under where the sails are parked. They might benefit from additional solar panels which can be unfolded when beneficial and safe (such as when the winds are not strong).
They have 8MW of direct propulsion but only 2.5MW of solar panels, mounted on sails which are going to be aligned for optimum aerodynamic performance, which is probably not optimum solar performance, and which is only likely to produce a decent output for a fraction of the journey time, such as when it is not night. I get the impression that the solar panels were an afterthought, and the main power source is from hydrogen which is loaded onto the vessel at the start of its journey.
Trevor.
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If I had to invest in this proposal or the Beluga Skysails, my money would be on “the stupid kit sail”. It can be retrofitted to many existing ships, and probably also the E/S Orcelle, and is compatible with existing infrastructure. (How many ports can refuel a hydrogen-powered ship?)
The kite sail takes advantage of winds at a higher altitude than sails fixed to surface ships, and these winds are stronger and steadier. The energy available is proportional to the cube of the wind speed, so even a 10% increase in wind speed gives more than a 30% increase in power.
The other big advantage of the kite sail is that it does move, so it can sweep a larger area of cross-sectional wind than a sail fixed to a ship. Therefore a 160 sq m kite sail may sweep more wind and therefore deliver more power (towing force) than a 1000 sq m sail on a mast. Thinking just in terms of the area of the kite sail is like analysing a wind turbine by the area of the blade rather than the area swept by the blade.
Trevor.
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Trevor,
Problem with the kite is it share size. Not the puny 160 sq metre one but the commercial 1000 sq metre version.
First problem is to float it. Then retrieve. Remember we are talking a kite the size of two football fields.
This on a deck festooned with derricks, hatches, ventilation shafts, safety rail, etc.
Then it is only 100 perfect when the wind is directly astern. it looses efficiency when the wind is on its broadside, and it is completely useless when the wind is from anywhere in a 180 degree sweep from port to starboard with the wind is from ahead of the vessels intended course.
Even if you could float a commercial kite from a deck, the impact loading on the contol lines will be in the region of 40 metric tons as it fills with wind. Contrant pull loading is in the region of 20 metric tons.
Now not only do you have to get the kite skywards to catch the wind, you have control lines of at 20 to 30mm (dyneema or kevlar) to get aloft.
And even if you were to get this 1000 square metre kite set, you have to get it back on board. Remeber you have to do this in complete safety for both the crew and the ship.
After how many years of trials, they still have not sold one commercially. Why?
Because a commercial sized kite wont fly.
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I’m not sure your maths is correct, or perhaps you play on a very small football field. 1000 sq metres is 25 x 40 metres, not much bigger than 1/4 of one football field.
If 160 sq m is puny, 1000 sq m is only 6 times the area or about 2.5 times the length on each side. What is 2.5 times puny?
In addition, the kite sail is not useless if the wind is forward of the ship. Yes it is useless in a straight on head wind or wind from that quarter, but it does give useful forward pulling force when the wind is from the side and only partly forward – just like a conventional sail.
The sail is launched and retrieved from a post at the bow of the ship and is deployed and retrieved in front of this post – away from most of the obstacles on the deck.
I don’t know how they intend getting around some of your other objections, but they do appear to be making progress.
Trevor.
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Trevor29,
I’m prety sure my maths was incorrect. Your dimensions are correct.
Headbutted the boom in an out of control gybe yesterday so my thinking was a bit woolly.
Launched from a pole on the bow? How. Ever raised a sail or a kite? A sail is easy, just go head to wind and hoist. A kite needs wind astern and sets in an instant (hence the warning on shock loadings).
Winch is back in while it is set how are you going to collapse it?
The kite sail has been promoted for at least 3 years with NO commercial takers.
Ever wonder why?
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Ouch!
Yes, I have sailed, and I have been on the wrong side of a sudden wind shift and had an unexpected swim.
The kite collapses as its sides are pulled together. It is launched when the wind is blowing, and my understanding is that the lines are gathered together at launch time and gradually let out so the kite expands in a controlled fashion – no shock loading. It is all done with the control and launch and retrieval systems, so muscle-power isn’t needed, making it relatively safe.
It has been about a year since I read any details – follow the links (if they still work).
Trevor.
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Trevor29,
I conntributed largely to the previous debate why a large kite on a ship is impractical.
At some point in the lauching and retrieval you have a 1000 square metres of deflated pliable material somewhere on deck.
It is to big to smoothly slide in and out of a launching tube. And even if you had a launching tube big enough, how will you push the kite out of the shute so that it catches the wind? Sails you use a halyard to lift it upwards. Kites dont. Would need a rocket assist?
Even kite sailors have some difficulty launching their kite, though the new ones have an air filled floatation tube that prevents the kite collapsing on the water and it stays wind filled even when down.
No, this idea wont ever fly COMMERCIALLY.
So my $200 donation to charity when the first commercial kite is operation for a twelve month period stands.
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Isn’t the question about not importing a whole bunch of junk that just ends up in a landfill and not whether we can get this junk here in a more enviromentally friendly way?
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Gerrit, you haven’t addressed my comments about the E/S Orcelle – a concept which has yet to move off the drawing board.
I don’t know how they launch and retrieve the kite sail. However I expect that they don’t have the sail draped over the deck. Instead I expect that for retrieval they gather up the sail while it is still in the air and stow it into its container. For launch, they might pull the kite’s control pod up the pole with the sail near the bottom of the pole, and let it out from the bottom moving up so the wind blows it away from the pole. (Instead of pushing the kite out of a tube, pull the tobe off the kite.)
What I do know is that they have a number of people working on these problems and over the past few years they will have tried several solutions and hopefully found one that works – without needing rockets.
I don’t see how you can say with such certainty that it won’t ever fly.
Trevor.
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Trevor29,
You would think that after 3 years flying a piddle little kite, they would move up to the commercial size and get some SALES to recoup their investment.
To date thwey have not flown a commercial sized kite nor have they got order for one.
Till then the kite concept is a dead duck.
Have you ever tried to douse 1000 sq metres of sail or kite. There is a point were all the air drops out of it and she falls down. What you are saying is that it will simply slide down a chute spilling air as the last bit is stowed. Just cant see it sorry. Nor launching where you would need at least a 40 metre mast to haul the kite skywards. Cost of such a carbon mast (with attending spreaders and rigging to wrap a kite around) is around $1M. Add that to the $2M for the kite and you have a serious financial investrment. Plus crerw training at retrieval and launching a very big kite which we know from sailing experience is dangerous if not properly.
Hey I’m not saying it is impossible, just highly unlikely to be a COMMERCIAL success. Hence my $200 donation to charity if one is sold and flown for 12 months.
Care to match that donation if in 12 months time they havent sold a COMMERCIAL kite?
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I didn’t say that it would simply slide down a chute UNAIDED. I don’t see that a 40m mast is necessary either, although I expect that it would need to be more than the length (short edge) of the kite, i.e. over 25 metres.
What I expect is that the control pod would be reeled in to the top of the pole and probably the control lines shortened. Then hoops would go over the control pod and down the pole, gathering up the control lines and kite. Finally the control pod could be lowered down the pole and the kite stowed into its container. Launch is the reversal.
I’m not saying that this is how they do do it, just that this is one way I can think of for handling a large kite. And no, I have never handled a sail or kite of anything like that size.
Their web site says some wind is required to launch, hardly surprising or restrictive because you wouldn’t want to launch if there wasn’t a reasonable amount of wind.
I’ll keep my money for now
Commercial sales in a depression would be a big challenge for any new business.
Trevor.
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From the video, it looks like the control pod is winched down to the deck, and then a line grabbed off the control pod and hawled up to the top of the pole, which draws the center of the leading edge of the kite against the pole. Then the control lines can be drawn in further collapsing the kite in front of the pole, which continues to hold up the center of the kite.
Trevor.
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Your $200 looks a bit shaky – they already have orders, and the skysails are installed on two vessels. Check their newsletter for MV “Wilson Grip”.
Trevor.
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Trevor29
Not holding my breath that a customer will actually fly a COMMERCIAL sized one for 12 months.
But you dont have the courage of your convictions to say that they will SELL one?
mmmmmmmmmmmmm
Just to add another couple of potential problem areas for a commercial operator to decide NOT to purchase a kite.
If the kite fails when in flight (either in the sail cloth or the glue and stiitch joins) there is a risk factor to consider of the kite and its control wires to foul to ships propellor.
Modern sail cloths have a lifespan that is reasonably short. Plastic laminate sails (while very light due to carbon or kevlar “strings” carrying the load) have a tendency to shrink after prolonged exposure to sunlight. While a more durable dacron cloth would be extremely heavy. Something in the order of nearly 1 tonne for a commercial sized kite.
You could go with a nylon woven cloth but in large sizes these have a tendency to split and rip if even a small hole punctures the fabric.
To carry a kite on a commercial boat you would need to employ a sailmaker to maintain the kite and its associated control lines.
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Major shipping companies are ordering Sky Sails. They don’t take big risks. They will have been convinced that all of your objections have been overcome.
Trevor.
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Trevor29,
That is real cool. Lets see in 12 months time how many still fly them and I will happily donate the $200 to charity (Alzheimer Research).
Any links as to which shipping companies are ordering and flying the kites?
So you $200 is pretty safe yes?
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http://www.skysails.info/english/information-center/news/news/article/skysails-update/506/54abb4cdb4/
says that two ships are being used for trials.
http://www.skysails.info/english/information-center/news/news/article/reederei-wilson-kauft-skysails-antrieb/506/c1e1a92b7d/
says that a Skysail has been ordered for the MV “Wilson Grip”
or just
http://www.skysails.info/english/information-center/news/
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One of the trial ships is owned by the Wessels shipping company. They like it so much, they have ordered another 3 systems.
http://www.skysails.info/english/information-center/news/news/article/skysails-uebertrifft-leistung-traditioneller-segelantriebe-um-mehr-als-das-fuenffache/506/919d4d791a/
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Trevor29,
Those are not commercial sales but funded by the shipping company financial providers who also happen to be the finacial backers for the kite makers
Hardly an independent commercial decision based on possible performance gains. More like a marketing exercise.
And notice the size of the kites and the puny ships they will be deployed on. 9 tonne pulling load is hardly enough for a bulk cargo carrier where you need 40 tonnes to make a differnence.
No, still kids playing with toys is Beluga Sky Sails.
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In case you hadn’t noticed, ships of those size carry much of the world’s freight – probably more than the bulk cargo carriers you mention – and consume much of the world’s bunker oil.
Beluga Sky Sails are getting on with their development, step by step, refining their products and ironing out the problems and building up experience, first with the smaller kites (naturally) and moving up to larger kites in managable increments. They may chose not to develop a kite big enough for the bulk carrier you are thinking of, simply because there aren’t enough ships of that size to justify the development. That is up to them. They can make a good profit meeting the needs of the large number of smaller ships.
You seem to want miracles.
Trevor.
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No, I’m not looking for miracles just a realistic concept that will work on real ships.
I dont know where you get your information from on shipping sizes and freight quantities carried on various sized ships, but I question that .
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Yes, it is a small coaster. It isn’t a toy and neither is the kite. There are a lot of ships around this size, plying their routes and burning oil. These kites will save some of that oil, and with it the pollution and CO2 that goes along with that oil. They have made a start and are ramping up production and the sizes of the kites and will make a bigger impact.
In other words, they are being sensible.
Trevor.
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Trevor29
Yes every litle bit helps.
Did you also read that the kites can only be flown 3 miles offshore. I guess for safety and environmental reasons. Cuts down the time a coaster is able to fly a kite, as by nature these vessels tend to hug the coast.
Neither can they be flown in shipping lanes. Something the coastal region in the North Sea, the English Channel, approaches to Germany sea ports plus the Baltic have plenty off.
Still not keen to put money on the fact that they will sell commercially and get past the testing stage?
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